Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: Only German Cars on August 30, 2018, 05:29:52
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Hello All,
Over the last weekend I had the great pleasure of attending the 2018 Geneva Concours in Geneva, Illinois, as a guest of a MBCA member. Each year the show highlights one or two different marques and this year it was the SL through the years. All cars judged competed for the Carl Benz award. This show is the Pebble Beach of the midwest.
Unfortunately, as this is a multi-marque show, all SL's, regardless of model, were grouped in one class and competed for only three awards; and there were a lot of SL's, including three 300SL gullwings and three 300SL roadsters. Although, I am mostly a Porsche enthusiast and a PCA member, I must admit to being absolutely captivated by the exploits of two MBCA and Pagoda SL Group members that I encountered at the show. All day long it was expected that the 300SL's would capture all three SL class awards; with the only real question being which three of the six 300SL's would come out on top?
Out of all of the competing SL's, there were only two Pagodas in the show. A 1964 230SL owned by Richard Cooke and a 1970 280SL owned by Hugh Whipple. I understand that both are MBCA and Pagoda SL Group members. I always knew about the MBCA but learned of the Pagoda SL Group through them. Their individual cars were absolutely exquisite. Both flawless in all respects. When I asked one of the gentlemen about his car he pointed out features such as the original trunk mat, correct logo soft-top plastic window, keys, Phoenix tires, documentation, leather seat perforations....... Both of these gentlemen were friendly and approachable and were with their cars all day long to talk to spectators and answer questions. Wonderful men and wonderful cars. I took notes and learned a great deal. I actually came to the show to see 190SL's because I have toyed with the idea of buying one to add to my Porsche only garage, however, I left with the desire to purchase a Pagoda.
Now the big surprise - these two Pagodas did what was thought impossible. They each captured a class award leaving only one award for a 300SL. Amazing. Simply amazing. It is hard for me to convey how dramatic and unexpected their wins actually were. The 300SL owners were stunned. The large crowd was appreciative as both cars and their owners received the loudest applause when receiving their awards. While the Pagoda may never match the 300SL in market value, these wins go to show that Pagodas are no less classic or iconic in their own right. Wonderful day for Pagoda lovers.
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Great report and congratulations to Richard Cooke and Hugh Whipple.
Thanks for posting and welcome to the group. Please keep us posted if you do purchase a Pagoda.
Were any of our other Chicago area members in attendance?
It would be great if we could see some pictures of the winning cars taken at the event.
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Were any of our other Chicago area members in attendance?
Yes Ralph, I was there in the morning for a couple of hours.
That is fantastic that Cooke and Whipple won !!
I spoke with both of them (I agree, very nice guys). We actually discussed the fact that they were in the same class as the 300 SLs and they both felt they would not have a chance against them.
I'm sure they are thrilled that they were wrong !!!
Most of my pictures are on my DSLR which is at home, so here is one I have from my phone.
The car in the forground is Cooke's 230 SL and the in the background is Whipple's 280 SL.
Both cars were VERY nice.
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I found a youtube video of this year's event.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2CghG3ukqg
A red Pagoda appears at about 0:46, then Hugh Whipple and Richard Cooke's Pagodas briefly appear at about 3:29, followed by about half a minute of the six 300SLs in their own little corral.
Like Ralph, I look forward to seeing more photos!
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A red Pagoda appears at about 0:46, .......
Like Ralph, I look forward to seeing more photos!
The red Pagoda belonged to a vendor (I believe Iron Gate Motor Condos) and it is possible that it was not a judged car. Here is a picture of it and I will see if I have more, that would be interesting, later that I can upload.
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There may have been an official photographer present at the event. Here is a link to 24 pages of photos for sale at $9.95 per image. Hugh and Richard's Pagodas are on page 1.
https://public.fotki.com/NitroMarty/2018-car-shows--races/geneva-concours-del/
There was an amazing variety of vehicles on display, everything from a Penny Farthing bicycle to a Pierce Arrow Silver Arrow. Ralph, you and Flora will appreciate that the photographer had a particular fascination for a little Fiat Topolino, even going back to photograph it pulling away at the end of the event. (Why is it that big guys always seem to show up at car shows in the tiniest cars, like Isettas and Kabinenrollers?)
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Maybe his brother owned the car, Mike, or maybe he just liked the bright blue color. Somehow I doubt this is an original FIAT color.
Below find a more appropriate color scheme from a Rally here in Italy last summer.
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Hello All,
. This show is the Pebble Beach of the midwest.
I this an undisputed fact? How does "Meadowbrook" in Rochester Hills, MI, compare to this?
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Mike Simon, where have YOU been? The Meadowbrook Concours is ancient history replaced about 7 years ago with the Concours of America at St. John's. Sadly, Meadowbrook Hall couldn't be bothered with old farts and old cars, they make way too much money off of weddings. Hence the move.
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" I this an undisputed fact? How does "Meadowbrook" in Rochester Hills, MI, compare to this? "
MikeSimon, the only point I was trying to make was that two of your fellow Pagoda SL Group members did extremely well over the mighty 300SL at a really top level show. Am I trying to say Geneva is superior to the old Meadowbrook? No, I am not. BUt it is a fine show with national concours level cars. My first post on this forum was nothing more than a little pat on the back for two really nice guys and their beautiful cars. I also thought the forum of Pagoda owners might find the story interesting. Nothing more. So don't ask me if what is clearly my opinion is an "undisputed fact". Get over yourself. I am now looking to buy a Pagoda of my own and get involved with this group - I hope they are all not like you.
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To Only German Cars ,
Welcome to our Group !
First, thank you for sharing the story and the wonderful photos it generated by others.
Second, good luck in finding a nice Pagoda, we look forward to hear what you found and of course to see photos.
I think the judges might have been convinced that money is not everything the Pagoda IMHO has a much more Timeless body style, I don’t think I would smile as often driving a 300 SL then I do driving my 280 SL, then of course I might be bias :)
Best,
Dieter
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I will second Deiter's welcome and add that this is a wonderful group of Pagoda lovers from around the world. You will find a lot of support and encouragement here, including from Mike Simon, who is currently in the process of re-commissioning a Pagoda he has owned for many years, and is himself getting a lot of support and encouragement.
Thank you so much for posting your introductory message, which has raised the spirits of quite a few of us already. A Pagoda besting a 300SL in a judged concours is not entirely unknown, but still rare enough to excite comment. Over a decade ago my 230SL took 1st over a 300SL roadster, whose owner habitually walked off with the top award in that show every year. More recently at a different show it was awarded "Best of Featured Marque" over a 300SL that was actually featured on the poster for the event that year! I don't show my car that often and don't always win, but it is a nice feeling when the Pagoda is appreciated. Hugh and Richard's cars showed well in Geneva and they deserve a warm round of applause.
Welcome aboard! You and your Pagoda will find each other, soon I hope!
You mention that you are a Porsche guy. Were you at the Treffen at the Grove Park Inn last year? Here is my lone Pagoda among the 200-odd Porsches down in the parking garage.
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As a lighthearted aside to this, the MBCA typically sponsors a "Most Significant Mercedes-Benz" trophy at some notable Concours d'Elegance.
As one local MBCA member put it just the other day, "The Most Significant Mercedes-Benz, unless a Gullwing shows up award"
I burst out laughing...
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Here is a youtube slide show of the 2018 Genevae Concours winners. It looks like there ended up being four Mercedes SL awards altogether. Just for fun, look to see how many captioning errors you can find - I spotted at least five! ;^)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WXcWLnseVI
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Sorry for stepping on a few toes :o Not my intention. I lived in Rochester Hills from 1988 through 1991, before I move to Ohio, and to answer the question about where I have been - well there.
I had not been back to Meadowbrook since 1989 and had no idea it was gone. I thought it was great event back then.
I have been to Monterey a couple of times... Always though Meadowbrook was little more "hands on" for mere mortals as myself. 8)
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Hi Everyone,
Thank you for the very nice coverage of the Geneva show. I have been a Pagoda Group member for a long time but have never posted before, however, I have read and studied just about everything on the site, and learned so much. Hugh and I were more surprised than anyone when we were notified the Pagodas were class winners along with a 300SL roadster. I believe several modern SL's also won "sponsor's choice awards" which made it a good day for Mercedes.
I am 52 years old now and spent my entire college savings to buy my Pagoda when I was 15. That was back in 1982. It has remained a constant in my life through the best and worst times, and has a great deal of personal and sentimental value to me. Gernold Nisius restored my Pagoda in 2008 and deserves all the credit for the cars technical authenticity and correctness. I loved working with him. We agreed no repo. parts. All parts original to the car that could be saved would be, and any replacement parts had to be NOS. We joked that when the car was finished we wanted to be able to look at it and pretend we were standing in a new car showroom in 1964. I have attached a few more pictures of the engine, trunk, and interior that show the high level of Gernold's work. The restoration is now 10 years old but looks like it was just completed. Geneva was the first time it was ever shown.
I have recently semi-retired from a profession and a job that has slowly sucked the soul out of my body for the past 28 or so years; and hope now to have the free time to play with cars and go to car events and just be around good people who also love cars. I also hope to now be able to meaningfully contribute to this Pagoda Group and give back a little for so much I have learned here through the years.
Thanks again everyone,
Rich Cooke
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Dieter, Thank you for the welcome.
Mike, I did not go Grove Park Inn, and congrats; on also showing your 230SL and also besting a 300SL. That is no small feat. I have a 1977 911S and a 1983 944. I know they are not the most desirable Porsches but they are both in great shape and fun to drive.
As I said, I have been toying with the idea of buying a 190SL but after getting a good look at the 230SL and 280SL at the Geneva Concours the Pagodas have really gotten under my skin. With the fuel injection and straight 6 engine they are more little brothers to the 300SL than the 190SL. I am really discovering why they have such a loyal following. I can imagine they drive beautifly as well.
Can anyone tell me what excellent Pagodas really exchange hands for? Not asking prices. I know the 250SL is worth more than the 230SL and the 280SL is at the top of the price levels. I would have guessed there would be a lot for sale here at any given time but there do not appear to be. Are good ones hard to find? Are certain color combinations more desirable than others?
Richard, I asked you at the show if your stunning Pagoda is for sale and you told me no. I saw online Mercedes Benz Classic has a 230SL for sale that is bright white with blue tex interior. They are asking $250,000. I do not like the colors. Your soft white and tan leather is the most beautiful combination I have ever seen on any car. I did not forget you said no and I am not pestering you, but IF you were going to sell it how much would it take? Would you take $250,000 if offered unsolicited?
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After I retired from corporate world, I teamed up with two friends and we founded a broker/seller/trader company dealing with vintage cars and motorcycles and are involved in vintage racing. We "deal" with both Mecum and Bonhams. We almost exclusively work with clients on request.
From my point of view, the prices for Pagodas have shot up quite a bit in recent years, following the increase of air-cooled Porsches of the same vintage.
While you can still find decent cars in the 60-80k range, an "excellent" Pagoda will definitely be over 100k, more likely in the 120-150k range.
On the other end of the spectrum, $250k for a Pagoda is top Dollar and rather hard to realize. If there is one at auction and two bidders who both want it start to fight over it, you may get there.
Mike Simon
Mille Miglia LLC
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Richard, it's good to see a long-time member joining the discussions at last. One Pagoda occasionally coming out ahead of a lone 300SL in a judged event is one thing - two Pagodas coming out ahead of a whole fleet of 300SLS is quite another. Our hats are off to you and Hugh!
Only German Cars (we hope to know your real name at some point), without opening up a whole discussion again about what constitutes the "best" or "most desirable" or "most valuable" Pagoda (that subject has been explored elsewhere here ad infinitum!), I would just suggest that you simply consider what the things are YOU like most about a Pagoda as you and your Pagoda find each other.
A 230SL, while the most numerous of the early W113 SLs, is not the most powerful version, but embodies the purest expression of the design. Only the earliest 230SLs have the upright spare like you saw in Richards car; not long after his was built the factory redesigned the trunk floor and relocated the spare to a horizontal position on the opposite side of the trunk like you saw in Hugh's car. There are many elegant little trim details unique to the 230SL that carried over into early 250 SL production. The seven main bearing 2.5L engine had the same power output as the four main 2.3L unit but had more torque. 250SLs may be thought of as transition models, carrying forward most of the early W113 trim features but eventually losing some of the elegant early style trim as evolving safety elements were incorporated during its short model run. Stirling Moss famously acquired a 250SL and promptly swapped in a more powerful and torquey 2.8L engine from a sedan for more performance; D-B followed suit within months. The 280SL Pagoda carried the SL torch into the early '70s until replaced by the V-8 powered R107. Being the newest and most powerful expression of the Pagoda, it has long been considered the most valuable, but the earlier models are reaching parity. When you met Hugh and Richard you saw wonderful examples of the early and late expressions of the Pagoda theme.
The bottom line is that everyone here loves their Pagoda for different reasons, all good in the eyes of each of us, and we all have good stories about how they came into our lives.
Richard related earlier how he acquired his at the tender age of 15. My boss at the Lincoln Mercury dealership where I worked for 30 years owned a pair of lovely 280SLs, one stick and one automatic. The Signal Red 4-speed car had a Mack Truck Bulldog bolted on the hood when he first saw it!
When a customer, who at age 85 was contemplating the prospect of no longer being able to drive, approached my boss for advice on selling his beloved 230SL I first discovered and began to appreciate all the elegant little details that make a 230SL special. I tried to buy it from him, but my boss's brother in law had a fatter checkbook and a quicker draw. Every time he came in for a new car I would ask him, "Hey Marvin, you ready to sell that Mercedes yet?" One afternoon fourteen years later, just days before my 50th birthday, he called me at the office and asked, "Hey Mike, you ready to buy that Mercedes yet?"
We look forward to hearing how you and your Pagoda find each other!
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Mike: I always thought the 280SL was the "most numerous", reaching almost 24,000 units built from 1967 to early 1971?
Also, if you research the relevant info, you will find that certain revisions of EPA regulations for the U.S. coincide with the change from 250SL to 280SL, and it was said Daimler Benz changed in order to meet these regulations, thus the very short life of the 250SL.
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Mike, you are quite right about production numbers and I have edited my brief overview addressed to "Only German Cars" to reflect this. Thank you! While changes in U.S. EPA and DOT safety regs to which I obliquely referred certainly had a great deal to do with the transitions observed during the short life of the 250SL and the introduction of the 280SL, the engine swap carried out by Stirling Moss almost immediately after taking delivery of one of the earliest 250SLs (he had ordered a 230 but received a 250) is a matter of record. Having been done by such a high profile M-B client and former M-B competitions driver certainly can be said to have had an influence on the future of the W113 (and has been by possibly more authoritative commentators than me).
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Mike Simon, where have YOU been? The Meadowbrook Concours is ancient history replaced about 7 years ago with the Concours of America at St. John's. Sadly, Meadowbrook Hall couldn't be bothered with old farts and old cars, they make way too much money off of weddings. Hence the move.
That's not what I was told by a lady inside Meadowbrook Hall. She told me that they were very sorry that the show wouldn't be coming back because it was a big revenue draw during the car show for people going through the house. My understanding at the time was that the operation taking care of the golf course kept wanting more money every year for damages so the car show bailed out. No matter to me because the new venue is every bit as nice as the old one and probably better.
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" Richard, I asked you at the show if your stunning Pagoda is for sale and you told me no. I saw online Mercedes Benz Classic has a 230SL for sale that is bright white with blue tex interior. They are asking $250,000. I do not like the colors. Your soft white and tan leather is the most beautiful combination I have ever seen on any car. I did not forget you said no and I am not pestering you, but IF you were going to sell it how much would it take? Would you take $250,000 if offered unsolicited? "
Only German Cars, thank you for the kind words. Like many others in the Pagoda Group, the value our cars have to us is not quantified in dollars. I do not pay close attention to the current value of Pagodas because it is meaningless to me, as I will never sell mine. Even when the day inevitably comes when I can no longer drive it; I believe it will give me comfort knowing it is tucked away in the garage waiting for either of my two sons to take it for a spin.
Talk to knowledgable guys like Mike Simon who have a good understanding of the market. Figure out if you want a nice driver or a concours show car that spends most of its time being transported to events on a trailer. Also, keep in mind that an early 230SL with a four-speed drives differently than a 280SL with an automatic transmission, air conditioning, and power steering. Figuring it out goes far beyond color combinations. Have patience and I am sure you will find the right car. Best of luck.
Rich Cooke
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Yes, Richard,
An extremely nice car you have, I must admit. With a VIN just below 003000 if I am right.
I remember Gernold and me discussing you car when he visited Essen a couple of years ago. Back then he was a bit surprised that someone (obviously you) wanted to have such a high end restoration and such an authentic one with a 230.... Until then Gernold only performed these kind of restorations on 280ies. But I remember Gernold saying he liked this task very much. ;)
Very nice to "see" your car back here "alive."
So, congratulations again
and welcome to the group (at least postings-wise)
and enjoy!
Best,
Achim
(08/64 230)
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That's not what I was told by a lady inside Meadowbrook Hall. She told me that they were very sorry that the show wouldn't be coming back because it was a big revenue draw during the car show for people going through the house. My understanding at the time was that the operation taking care of the golf course kept wanting more money every year for damages so the car show bailed out. No matter to me because the new venue is every bit as nice as the old one and probably better.
Really, not true. Shortly before they moved to St. John's, I had the opportunity to review all the financials of the Concours operation. Ostensibly the Concours was supposed to pay its own way, and then the surplus (or profit) was to be donated to Meadowbrook Hall. The problem is, the Concours didn't really make any money. One of the reasons for that was Meadowbrook got so much more money up front for all the operations, that when all was said and done, there was nothing left over! So, if the Concours wanted to use the lobby of the hall, there was a separate charge for that. Front lawn? Charge for that. The golf course wouldn't let them use the golf carts, they had to rent and truck in a fleet of them; what sense does that make? The Concours couldn't hire its own security, they had to use Oakland University police--at double time on Sunday rate. The list of things like that went on and on and on, and I was baffled by the finances--particularly by all the separate and up front charges by Meadowbrook to host the show. Of course there was no money left over to donate to Meadowbrook--they took it in all up front! As for golf course damage, nonsense. Only three out of 18 holes were used, and damage is/was minimal unless there is torrential rain. Golf courses can fix themselves up pretty quickly. St. John's on the other hand, welcomed the Concours with open arms, and bends over backwards to ensure a quality show. They re-landscaped certain areas to accommodate the cars, paved some paths, and basically shut the place down for a whole weekend. Meadowbrook hall is a lovely old mansion, and they have nearly every weekend day all year booked with weddings. The Concours became just an annoyance to them. A wedding is a one day affair and doesn't interfere with golf.
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Hi Achim,
You are exactly correct. Gernold advised me at the time that an open checkbook restoration on an 230SL was not very wise from a financial standpoint. I understood this well, however, my thought was that since I was never going to sell it did not matter. During the many months Gernold had the car we talked frequently and he told me how wonderful it was to work on an early 230SL. We never had a single disagreement. From day one I wanted him to make the car the very best he could. On one of his trips to Germany he sourced the exact 970 dark grey fabric top material and brought it back with him. We tried getting it in the US but could not find anything even close in color to a known 970 sample. That is just one example of his dedication to authenticity and correctness. He is simply a remarkable mechanic and a pleasure to work with.
Thank you to you (and Mike Hughes) for the welcome back to the Group. For the past 10 years or so I always maintained my full membership but became very inactive soon after Gernold finished the car and sent it back to me. I put a cover over it and stored it in the corner of my garage, driving it very infrequently. Taking it to that car show last week was kind of like a waking up after a long sleep for me and the car. In all honesty, I fell into that common trap of letting a job (that I can admit now I absolutely despised) consume me. I made a huge mistake. Now, ten years older, at least I learned a lesson: Make time for yourself, your family, and your fun hobbies (ie your Pagoda). That is all that really matters. Glad to be back.
Rich
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Here are some other pictures from my camera.
A Pagoda with a Chevy LS and a 6 speed trans in the parking lot, plus a nice Ferrari.
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For those that like Porsches:
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More:
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Some Camaros:
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And a sea of 300 SLs:
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For those that like Porsches:
… and both of those Porsches belong to Indy 500 Champion Bobby Rahal.
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Good shots Iconic, thanks for posting. :)
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Isn't the use of the word "destroy" in the title of this thread a bit over the top?
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In a literal sense, yes, since no physical damage to any of the 300SLs was reported; as a term of exuberance in common usage as a synonym for "defeat in competition," perhaps not.
I note, however, that your avatar depicts a detail shot of a Gullwing, which leads me to observe that even among like-minded friends the innocent application of a term in common usage has the potential to be considered offensive by someone!
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… and both of those Porsches belong to Indy 500 Champion Bobby Rahal.
Cool! A Carrera 6. You don't see many of these anymore, even at Vintage race meets. When we did the motor mod in my 914-6 "GT" in 1974 we used a Carrera 6 top end.