Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Body, interior, paint, chrome, and cosmetic items => Topic started by: johnk on August 21, 2018, 01:54:30
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The most recent post I could find regarding our trunk paint was from December 2016 covering how the paint was no longer available from the MB dealers and nobody seemed to know where to get the correct formula to have it mixed. I tried the paint code 56 listed in the tech manual but the jobber I am working with couldnt find the formula for that code.
Has anyone since then discoved a source for the correct trunk paint?
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A couple a weeks ago I was dealing with this. I called my local ppg auto paint shop. I gave them the code:
DB 164 Dunkelgrau (Dark Gray).
They had it in their database. It was a low luster very dark gray. Supposedly the correct trunk color for our cars. 👍
Atomizer spay can was ~$35. He could mix it immediately.
I still have not bought so cannot give any further info.
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Thanks this is a big help! I will try a PPG store. I did give the store I was dealing with DB 164 rather than the code I noted above by memory. They had no problems pulling up and mixing the other 4 MB colors I gave them as I am trying to decide on a final color for my car.
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I had some mixed at William Wolf. Brand escapes me but it is correct in color and gloss(satin). I am out if town until Friday. I will post brand then.
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Thanks Pat
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Would this be the same on W111? I thought it was black.
Paul
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Yes, same on a W111. Because what is in there now, doesn’t mean that is what came from the factory. It is without a doubt a very dark grey and close to satin.
FYI, getting the color right isn’t much of a problem. But getting the correct gloss is. I might suggest using an enamel paint mixed to the correct color. Then apply a PPG pre-mixed satin clear on top. You can easily adjust exactly what gloss level you want with this line. I do not have the number in front of me, but is what they use for the AMG low gloss body paint.
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Here it is. Correct color and gloss and it is catalysed. The downside is the cost. If memory serves it was $160 for a quart with the catalyst etc.
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The special spray can from my local ppg paint store was $35 and I guess it contained the catalyst also. He said you must press a button to release the catalyst in the can.
It's a one shot deal. You have a short time to use it.
He also said it goes on really nice.
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Thanks
Is there a reason that its an expensive catalyzed paint rather a regular single stage?
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It is just what they supplied. The nice thing about catalysed paint is you can wipe it down with thinner if you ever spill anything in the trunk. Also impervious to gasoline.
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You would want a catalyzed paint especially in the trunk. Without it, it would take weeks to dry completely. Even then, the paint smell would take even longer to dissipate. I used an enamel without a hardener once in a trunk, and it did just like above. The catalyst, as was said, makes it far more durable.
Interesting label and thanks for sending. The DCC line of PPG is typically a high gloss paint. As part of the formula, they must have added a flattener to make it the low gloss. Also interesting it uses the same catalyst as the DCU line of PPG clears.
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thanks gents
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Wallace, As you assumed the flatening agent is part of the formula. I did not have them add it.
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Here's an old scan of the Glasso DB164 formula card. I gave the formula to my body restorer/painter. I'm not sure how he got the paint mixed or by whom, but as far as I'm concerned, it looks perfect - a really, really dark gray. I know he works with PPG to get his paints mixed for his restorations and custom cars. He used the same paint for the trunk and inside the lid, the rocker panels and the inside of the convertible top compartment as well as the inside of the soft top compartment lid.
For sure, don't trust the color on the card. The color does not stand a chance of being representative on the monitor. I also dont know why the two different formulae are listed. Maybe someone here or a paint shop will know.
Tom Kizer
Levis, Quebec, Canada
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Correct. Another member posted the same card on this forum several years ago.
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Isn't the soft top compartment suppose to be the body color though? Mine appeared to be the original body color before I primed it. Just want to make sure I get it right.
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From what I understand. the inside of the soft top color is suppose to be the above color db 164 dunkelgrau. That's how I have anyways seen them.
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Thanks
I need to re check whats under my primer. It makes sense that it would be the same as the trunk.
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I also dont know why the two different formulae are listed. Maybe someone here or a paint shop will know.
The second formula has an additional pigment - Ocker and is Ocher in English and a yellow pigment. All the amounts of pigment are adjusted when they added the Ocher. It would be a different shade for sure, but with that dark of a grey, not sure any would notice the difference. No mention of a gloss adjustment. So that was probably left up to the end user to add what flattener they felt was appropriate.
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I think the to compartment is supposed to be semi gloss black.
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A couple a weeks ago I was dealing with this. I called my local ppg auto paint shop. I gave them the code:
DB 164 Dunkelgrau (Dark Gray).
Gentlemen..., :o
Please be aware that all 230ies and 250ies and also the early 280ies (until when?) did not have a dark grey trunk (and softtop compartment) but black! :o
Nothing but simply black. Don't know the color code. It's not outside DB 040, for sure.
I think the to compartment is supposed to be semi gloss black.
Yes, that's correct too.
Regards,
Achim[/size]
(with partly original untouched black trunk color)
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Please be aware that all 230ies and 250ies and also the early 280ies (until when?) did not have a dark grey trunk (and softtop compartment) but black! :o
Nothing but simply black. Regards,
Achim[/size]
(with partly original untouched black trunk color)
Achim,
Can you tell me/us how you know this?
Mark
(always curious about dark grey vs. black ;D )
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Let's just say that, whatever it is called, it looks like a dull black! If the paint is original to the car it will even have some runs in it!
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I'm very good at duplicating runs when I paint!
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My 230sl 1965 has an original trunk/boot interior and lid that has never been repainted and comes with all the runs etc. ect etc. I have looked at it and even lifted a bit of the Tyre label as well and it sure looks like dark grey not black to me. I also want to know where this bit of information that it is black comes from.
Garrt
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Thanks Garry !
Calling Achim !!
Regards,
Mark
(who thought this little signature trick would catch Achim's attention. ;D )
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Hi Garry -
I, like you, have "an original trunk/boot interior and lid that has never been repainted and comes with all the runs etc." and even the yellow brush paint marking adjacent to the rear axle mount. My 230SL is a '66 and that paint sure looks black to me.
So it begs the question: Since the final appearance of these areas must have been of little importance, as painting these areas appears to have been a fairly low skill quick and dirty job (I'm sure paint runs would have never been tolerated otherwise!), is it possible that the plant used whatever very dark dull finish paint was available at the moment?
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......... is it possible that the plant used whatever very dark dull finish paint was available at the moment?
That is not how I imagine things were done in the '60's by German engineers.
Maybe once in a while to meet production needes, but doubtful if they used "whatever very dark dull finish paint was available". There must be a specification for the paint, and I would supposed deviations to the bill of material need to be made to make any changes.
At least that is certainly MHO.
Mark
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You have a point. We know that both Glasurit and Herberts were paint suppliers to DB during the period our Pagodas were produced. It makes perfect sense that D-B would have specifications for paint, even for the paint used in the trunk and hardtop compartment, but D-B doesn't formulate and manufacture the paint. They go to their paint suppliers and say, "We need a neutral black paint for the storage compartments of our vehicles. What have you got in a dull black paint?" It would also make sense that one supplier might have a stock formula for a dull black paint while the other might have a stock formula for a dull off-black paint that might be close enough for the purpose. Once chosen, those paints become the approved specification for the trunk and hardtop compartment.
The folks painting the trunks don't choose the paint, they load their guns with the paint supplied for that purpose. Given that some of our members report "dark gray" and others report "black" it stands to reason that the suppliers could have been switched at some point, or maybe even paint on hand could come from different suppliers on a random basis, who knows? Thus my question about the plant using whatever very dark dull finish paint was on hand at the moment.
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In my car both H and G were used, 334 H on the body and 350 G on the hard top. I had always assumed that the top was painted seperately from the car on a top build production line then matched somewhere on the car build line late in the piece.
So after years of discussion on the dark grey used for the rocker panels and there was no real agreement to that answer, and some years discussion on the trunk and soft top hutch, we dont have consensis on that either !!!!
All I can say is it sure looks grey to me.
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=22882.msg163707#msg163707 (https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=22882.msg163707#msg163707)
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I don't think the runs in the trunk lids were due to sloppy application of the black paint but rather due to the hood and trunk being dipped in primer before painting. I have seen pictures where the hood's underside was sanded revealing the runs to be in the grey primer as opposed to the topcoat.
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.../...the runs in the trunk lids.../... due to the hood and trunk being dipped in primer before painting.../...
Quite so. This is true both for the trunk and hood (bonnet) lids. The whole car body was run through a big tub of primer (see picture) with lids propped up semi open. This primer dried slowly, and left runs on the underside
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Great picture Hans! I see the warning sign before the tank and can only wonder how many people have fallen in. :o
Luckily for us, Mercedes dipped the whole car. On the Roadrunner, they only dipped up to the tops of the doors. Everything above that was left to rust unless it got sprayed. The underside of the roof, package tray, trunk lid, etc... It was positioned on an angle down towards the front so the hood got dipped but not the trunk.
They began to rust BEFORE they left the factory.
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Thanks Garry !
Calling Achim !!
Regards,
Mark
(who thought this little signature trick would catch Achim's attention. ;D )
Thanks Gentlemen..., ;D
For the discussion. ;D
Good question. Is it black, is it grey? Where does the knowledge come from that it was black until when (late 1969 ??) and then thereafter changed to deep dark grey (from very late 1969 onwards)?
Well, these are good questions, 8)
and I cannot answer them for sure or without leaving doubts. ???
The question regarding black (early) versus dark grey (late) comes mainly from observation.
And it helps only to look at absolutely (...) original cars - at least totally untouched in this area.
Mostly restored cars have been changes/resprayed here.
So this is what we (the people who are interested in this kind of stuff) have done: looked at as many cars as possible. And only then you find differences that are not described in literature like different lids on the ashtray or just even the trunk color or paint runs issue.
I am sure there was a board member decision or a production department decision until when black paint was used (roughly until the end of 1969 or so) and from when deep dark grey paint (7164) was used. And surely there are meeting protocols that did record these democratic (....) board decisions.
Only, I don't have them or do not have access to these... :o
Maybe Günter Engelen (the author of our well known Pagoda-bible book) knows, 8)
but sadly I do not. :(
Garry,
I surely do know very well the difference between a black trunk and a deep dark grey one...
my 114015 (my forum's name) is a car built in Sep 1971 and clearly has the deep dark gray paint inside while the 1964 113042 has not but is clearly black. They're parked side by side, so it is easy to compare.
Garry, and in your case, I just think that your Australian car has received too much sun, so the initially black paint has faded over the decades.... ;D ;D :D
No no, kidding aside...; I think it is sometimes very hard to decide 'is it black - is it gray' if you have no comparison side by side.
:D ;) ;)
Achim
(3 MB's with black trunk,
1 MB with deepdarkgrey trunk)
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I agree with Achim, it is very difficult to distinguish satin "black" from satin "deep dark grey". The trunk in my red 1964 230SL is untouched (when it was resprayed recently I told the paint shop to leave it as is "don't even polish it"!) and one can clearly see that the paint was applied over the chassis paint (red). In the more protected areas it appears to be black while the lid is (now?) deep dark grey.
What is quite clear is that the top paint was only a very thin layer on these early cars, it comes of easily (see last photo).
The paint runs where not only on the lid but also further down on the rear wall.
I must say, however, I am still a bit puzzled why this is so important. If we can't distinguish the two colors very well then why make a big fuss? :)
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A mystery that has no answer at this point but Alfred, whilst people write definitive answers, ((of a conclusion or agreement) done or reached decisively and with authority.), which it is not, others will then argue that the answer is wrong.
One day I am going to get the deck lid off and take it to my local hardware store that has a paint spectrograph and get them to analyse it ;D ;D ;D
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So in my case where I also want to paint the soft top compartment correctly. I am going to recheck the original paint under the primer in the soft top compartment and if its dark blue (my original body color) I will paint it the body color. Seems that its most important to duplicate whats original to the car rather than going with what may be the normal original on most cars. My guess is our group is the only ones that would know and appreciate the differnce anyways.
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I must say, however, I am still a bit puzzled why this is so important. If we can't distinguish the two colors very well then why make a big fuss? :)
I might say that the importance of insignificant items is directly proportional to the current value of the car. ;) If you want to talk about overanalyzing "factory" correct procedures, look no further than my '70 Roadrunner. Back in the 80's, no one cared about dated coded anything. As the values rose, so did the importance of not just matching numbers, but date coding as well. You can literally drive yourself broke and insane trying have the "perfect" car. Problem is, no Mopar factory worker was perfect. So many iterations exist with these muscle cars.
My opinion is, just do the best you can and enjoy these wonderfully engineered Mercedes cars!
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See attached latest PPG formula. SEM trim black available in spray cans and quarts is very close.
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thanks!