Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Drive train, fuel, suspension, steering & brakes => Topic started by: County Guy on March 24, 2018, 00:33:19
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I'm finally getting around to my injector pump and want to check that the thing is installed properly. I want to make an extraction tool using an M12-1.0 bolt and nut as described in Wwheeler's post but am not able to find these in Ontario. Does anyone know where I can acquire a nut and bolt without having to wait a month while they are sent from China as advertised on Ebay?
Thanks for any help you can offer.
Lockie
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Ace hardware should have them if there is one near you.
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Do you have any issues that make you suspect you have a problem with the check valves? The seal between the check valve and the barrel (Sort of like a cylinder in an engine) relies on the near perfectly machined surfaces at the top of the barrel and the bottom of the check valve. No sealant of any kind and 150 pounds of pressure. Any dirt in there can cause an internal fuel leak. I was extremely careful years ago when I pulled my first ones. I cleaned it well before I started and dusted it with compressed air etc but when I decided to pull my pump apart for rebuild there were quite a few tiny bits of aluminum from the threads of the housing smashed between the check valves and the barrels that had gotten lose as I was installing the valves. All of this has lead me to the conclusion that unless you have an issue it is best to leave well enough alone and if you do have to go in do it with the pump on a bench and with the pump on it's side. That way if you knock anything loose there is a good chance it will stay in the threads and not get trapped where it shouldn't be.
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Attached is a photo of a puller that I made. The "nut" is a break line nut that I bought on eBay for a buck. I have attached the eBay add and it's available right here in the USA. Worked like a charm...and no grinding of the nut required.
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Here is my thread about making a puller. Basic and works 😁 Just used it last week.
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=16055.0
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Thanks for the advice on this. I certainly don't want to introduce problems where I don't already have them. I've tried everything to get the car running smoothly and my final attempt will be the injector pump. I just want to ensure that the pump in installed properly and I liked Wwheeler's method. Unfortunately, the 12mm-1.0 nuts or bolts are not easily available in Canada. I finally bought them and received them this morning. I should be able to devise something with them. Keeping my fingers crossed.
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Thanks for the advise on this. I ordered a tap and die and received them today. I should be able to make what I need with them. Even the inverted flare tube nut fitting was proving difficult to have sent to Canada. You system looks great. Love the Pagoda group.
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This is a great system and just what I need but couldn't source the 12mm 1.0 bits here in Canada. I ordered a tap and die and received them today. I should be able to make what I need with these. Thanks so much. Love the Pagoda Group.
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I am not sure if it applies to the check valve type you have in 230SL. In my car there were these white seals under the check valves. Perhaps these are the ones Shvegel was referring to a couple of posts ago. They get easily scratched. They may also leave small scrapped particles after them when you pull the check valve up. If they are damaged, they may leak. Be careful to keep everything really clean.
I traced part number for these seals on Bosch pages. My wife found them for me on Amazon by Bosch part number. I did not go ahead with pulling out check valves until I had those seals at hand.
If I remember correctly I turned the engine a bit before re-fitting the check valves - fuel is pouring out of the connectors, flushing, hopefully, out any debris that might have been there. But it might as well have been totally stupid thing to do. Well, anyway I did that.
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Whoa the bus for a second! What are you trying to do? If you just want to see if your pump is properly timed I'd say you're going in the wrong direction.
This is what I'd do:
turn your engine over by hand until it's at TDC on number 1 piston. Turn it past TDC to 20 degrees past TDC. This is where your pump is supposed to be timed at and if it's timed at TDC or even 20 degrees before TDC it will never run properly.
Remove your pump and see if the line on the end of the pump drive is lining up with the line on the flange behind the drive. If it's not lined up you can turn it so that it does. Removing the check valves could be the biggest mistake you make and then you will be pulling your pump anyways. You can't fix pump timing any other way and you need to eliminate that as a cause. Should take about 3 - 4 hours to R&R.
Last time I went to Prince Edward County we visited Lake on the Mountain. I've never seen anything quite like it.
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Adding to what Dan said two generations after our injection system Bosh released the CIS system which just sprayed fuel all the time. You may get some small advatage in term of atomization but it asn't going to change the world. If your car isn't running right it probably isn't the timing that is the issue.
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Well thanks for all the advice. I wish my computer notified me when you replied. I might have held off on pulling the check vavles. Anyway, my car has been running like a pig since I got it and I have tried everything I could think of to correct it. Plugs, wires, timing, electronic ignition. linkages. I think I've exhausted every possibility but the timing of the injector pump. I began to suspect that the previous owner had installed it incorrectly. JA18's suggestion of measuring the position of the injector cam seemed easier than pulling the pump. The problem was not being able to source 12mm V1.0 Nuts or bolts here in Ontario. So, I ordered a tap and die on line. When they arrived, I drilled out a bolt and tapped it to the right size. Then ground it down to fit into the pump orifice and threaded it onto the check valves (1 and 6). I tapped the end of another rod and screwed it into the bolt. With this I was able to pull the check valves. And, yes, there was a small piece of plastic left in the #6 cyl, probably shaved off the plastic seal when I pulled it out. I pulled it out with a pair of tweezers. So, there's no going back now. They're out. I plan to put the original seals back into place with the check valves and see if a problem develops though I don't know what that problem might look like.
As for the measurements of depth, The rear cylinder is down but the measurement is only 29mm. The #1 cyl. is up but only to 21mm. How can that be? It is an original 230sl pump. 120R11. Any thoughts on this matter?
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There is a notify button below the message you can tap and you’ll be notified when any follow on messages are added.
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As for the measurements of depth, The rear cylinder is down but the measurement is only 29mm. The #1 cyl. is up but only to 21mm. How can that be? It is an original 230sl pump. 120R11. Any thoughts on this matter?
I do not know if this dimension should be different on earlier vs. later pump (I think Tech Manual shows later pump, you have earlier pump).
But the key is: is your timing correct?
Do you have the first (from the firewall) injection pump plunger up with engine 20 deg ATDC cylinder one power stroke ?
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A far easier way to check the IP piston positions is to remove the side cover plate on the pump. 6 flat head screws. You get a clear view of all the pistons and their positions when the engine is set to 20 deg ATDC.
This as well as the piston measurement technique will only tell you if the pump timing is grossly out. It could still be out a few teeth and you would not know. The height of the pistons are affected by the injection pump settings, the Baro, and the WRD. No 2 pumps will be the same.
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Well, as Tyler says, the piston height exercise was shown there, if I remember correctly, just to determine if the pump is not 180deg off, which is a common mistake done when fitting the pump.
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I think the 2 biggest mistakes when timing and fitting the pump happen when the engine timing are accidently set to 20 deg BTDC instead of 20 deg ATDC, Or the engine happens to be 180 degrees out, meaning #1 cyl is on the exhaust stroke instead of intake.
Pull the distributer cap and make sure the rotor is pointed at #1 plug wire terminal, or look down the engine oil fill hole and verify #1 cam lobes are pointed up.
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Thanks for the tip on the "notify" button. I looked through the settings and couldn't find anything. Didn't notice the button. Got it now.
About the timing of the pump. I'm pretty sure I have the engine set at 20°ATDC. I followed AJ18 pretty carefully. I've checked that I'm on the compression stroke (Number 1 rockers/cam lobes are up. Those on number 6 are down.) There is about a 10° difference between #1 and #6. The #6 toothpick measurement is down 10mm lower than #1. So.....I'm concluding that the IP is installed correctly which leaves me scratching my head over the poor performance of my car.
If I'm understanding Tyler S correctly, the IP could be installed correctly (NOT 180° off) but still not performing well because it was aligned with the engine at 20° BTDC. I suppose that could account for the fact that the engine is performing poorly (very rich as well). Is there a way to check that without pulling the pump? (though I am totally ready to do that as I am running out of ideas.)
Thanks for everyone's help with this.
PS. Benz Doc. The Lake on the Mountain is indeed a marvel and where I like to go when it is really hot at home (20km away). It is always 5° cooler up there. How the lake manages to stay without finding an opening to allow all the water to pour out is a mystery but it has been there for hundreds of years. Also, there is a patio overlooking the reach, across from the lake, where one can have a bite and a beer or glass or wine and enjoy one of the most exquisite views anywhere to be found. I love driving my poorly running stinky, smoking 230 up there regardless.
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Remember that the injection pump only turns 1 revolution per 2 crankshaft revolutions. So if it was installed using 20 btdc instead of atdc 20 deg then it would really only be out 20 degrees, not 40. I think you may want to look in another direction for your issue. I dont know the history of what you have already checked or replaced but a few things would be make sure the distributer vacuum advance/retard is working, distributer mechanical advance, correct camshaft timing. Good compression in all cylinders, brakes that are not dragging (seen it happen),
A good way to help diagnose fuel issues would be to get it on a dyno or at least an exhaust analyzer.
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Thanks for the tip on the "notify" button. I looked through the settings and couldn't find anything. Didn't notice the button. Got it now.
About the timing of the pump. I'm pretty sure I have the engine set at 20°ATDC. I followed AJ18 pretty carefully. I've checked that I'm on the compression stroke (Number 1 rockers/cam lobes are up. Those on number 6 are down.) There is about a 10° difference between #1 and #6. The #6 toothpick measurement is down 10mm lower than #1. So.....I'm concluding that the IP is installed correctly which leaves me scratching my head over the poor performance of my car.
If I'm understanding Tyler S correctly, the IP could be installed correctly (NOT 180° off) but still not performing well because it was aligned with the engine at 20° BTDC. I suppose that could account for the fact that the engine is performing poorly (very rich as well). Is there a way to check that without pulling the pump? (though I am totally ready to do that as I am running out of ideas.)
Thanks for everyone's help with this.
PS. Benz Doc. The Lake on the Mountain is indeed a marvel and where I like to go when it is really hot at home (20km away). It is always 5° cooler up there. How the lake manages to stay without finding an opening to allow all the water to pour out is a mystery but it has been there for hundreds of years. Also, there is a patio overlooking the reach, across from the lake, where one can have a bite and a beer or glass or wine and enjoy one of the most exquisite views anywhere to be found. I love driving my poorly running stinky, smoking 230 up there regardless.
The reason I know your area is two fold: I had a customer recently with a white 280 SL ( now sold ) who lived near Picton and ran the Black Knight winery. Also the man who built my house was a teacher at South Bay and lived at Milford. He moved to my area in 1873 and built my house in about 1880 - 1885.
I still firmly believe that your pump could be out of time. Why don't you PM me and I'll see what I can do to get you sorted out.
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About the timing of the pump. I'm pretty sure I have the engine set at 20°ATDC. I followed AJ18 pretty carefully. I've checked that I'm on the compression stroke (Number 1 rockers/cam lobes are up. Those on number 6 are down.) There is about a 10° difference between #1 and #6. The #6 toothpick measurement is down 10mm lower than #1. So.....I'm concluding that the IP is installed correctly which leaves me scratching my head over the poor performance of my car.
Which toothpick do you call No.6? The one closest to the firewall? This one should be up, not down when your engine is set properly.
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The pistons always travel the same distance up and down regardless of fuel demand, barometric pressure etc. Fuel control is achieved by rotating the cylinder which has a hole in the side to admit fuel into the pumping chamber. I have some elements in the garage. I will post a picture tomorrow. Regardless if you are seeing different travels of pistons (Assuming you are off the cam lobe when measured0 you might have a broken return spring etc.
Have you traced the fuel lines and verified that the cylinders you are checking the timing on are in fact the injection pump cylinders for cylinders 1 and 6? I am not sure but I wouldn't assume that they are in othe same order as the engine.
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Thanks for your comments. I'm following JA18's instructions in the Tech. Manual. Particularly, "Figure 3: Measurements with IP installed correctly" which I interpret, Pawel, as showing the #6 piston in the pump, the one closest to the firewall, as being 'down', ie. 5mm deeper than the #1, closest to the radiator. Based upon this, I'm still believing that the pump is installed correctly. Although it could have been installed 20° BTDC putting it out of alignment. i think, Shvegel, that I wasn't clear enough when I described the measurements I got. I was describing the cylinders #1 & #6 as being the cylinders in the pump. Not those in the motor. (See JA18's photos in the Tech.Manual.)
I have checked the vacuum advance and confirmed that it is working by using my timing light and watching the changes that occur when I press the accelerator. I did make an injector pressure tester and tested all the injectors off the car. They are functioning well. However, I haven't tested each line to see if fuel is arriving as it should. I'm thinking my next step should be to pull the pump and ensure that it is not intalled 20° BTDC. If it is indeed installed correctly, then the only thought I would have left is checking the arrival of fuel and functioning of injectors while on the car. I could do that.
A Last though. I seem to have a bit of exhaust manifold leak. Perhaps a bad gasket. Could this cause poor running?
Benz Dr. I know about that that 280 but never got around to paying a visit. Sorry to hear he sold. I live in a house built in the late 1850's and though it costs a lot to keep warm, i love old homes. Lots of history. I don't know who built my house. I wonder if it could have been the same person.
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Ok, clear. Just making sure.
So it looks ok. If you got a grip on all the electric parts - did you check the fuel delivery by the fuel pump (not injectin pump)? Do you get required amount on the return hose end?
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Yes, I struggled with the fuel delivery when I first got the car but that has been resolved. I feel the problem is the fuel being delivered to the cylinders at the wrong time and/or perhaps not the correct volume (it is too rich). If I pull the Injector pump and it is installed correctly, then I will probably need to go to a professional.
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Before you throw in the towel remove the barometric compensator and make sure the stem is free. It should be stiff but not stuck. Don't try to move it a bunch just enough to verify it is free. Sometimes the top gets whacked and it gets stuck.
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Here is a picture of the piston and barrel. What is referred to as an “Element” when they are together. The top of the piston travels below the hole in the barrel. If you look at the top of the piston you will see a ramp machined in the surface. By turning the barrel(cylinder) you move the point at which the ramp on the piston meets the hole in the barrel. The piston travel is always the same but by rotating the barrels you can alter the fuel supply to the injectors. The farther to the left on the ramp the more fuel you get.
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Sorry for jumping in late, but what is the history of the problem? I did not see it in previous posts.
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OK. I didn't want to just leave this thread with out summarizing where I am at this point.
I measured the Fuel Injector Pump location at 20 ATDC and though the toothpicks were 10mm shorter than expected, I have concluded that the FIP was installed correctly.
I have gone back to basics and I checked the compression and it is pretty good.
I checked and adjusted a couple of valves that were off.
I pulled the plugs and looked them over. They seem fine. I checked the timing of the distributor making certain that the 1st. cyl. was on the compression stroke. That seems correct. The spark plug wires are almost new but I looked them over, particularly where they connect to the plugs. Everything seems ok.
I'm going to look at the ignition timing and dwell tomorrow but I don't expect to find a problem there.
If I am still having a problem with poor performance, I will be flummoxed.
Thanks for all your tips and suggestions.
Lockie
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Go back and look at your ignition wires again. Even new sets can have wrong parts in them. I've found most new sets have carbon core coil wires which would need to be changed to steel core. You can save and use the boots with terminals from the old ends if you have to change any wires.
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Thanks for that suggestion. I did pull the wires while the engine was running and didn't see any noticeable effect on a couple of cyl. You are suggesting steel core?
On another track. I bought "Progressive Regulator Linkage" bushings from Mercedes. One is very worn. (180 072 03 50) but the interior diameter seems too small to fit over the post. Have you ever encountered this? It looks like I will have to drill it out to get it to fit over the post.
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Regarding the bushings I ran into that problem also. That is how the come. You will need to use a drill or lathe to get the proper fit. I still have not done mine yet😜 Every car will be slightly different due to wear.
The spark plug wires should be copper core.
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Thanks. I'm going to work on the bushings today. It looks like the outside diameter is correct.
OK. Copper core wires they will be.
By the way, shvegel, I'm sorry i neglected to respond to your suggestion re;barometric pressure barrel. I did press on what seemed to me to be the top of the barrel after the compensator was removed. I used a shishkabob stick to make sure the barrel moved when pressed and it did move. I concluded that it was functioning properly.
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I did pull the wires while the engine was running and didn't see any noticeable effect on a couple of cyl.
You should definately see a noticeable rpm drop and engine stumble when each plug wire is removed while running. If not then zero in on these cylinders. A non contributing cylinder (or 2) can be caused by ignition, fuel injection, or compression issues.
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Most neew wire sets are probably stainless steel or something similar but the wire set doesn't have to be copper. I'm talking about the coil wire. On most of the sets I've seen it's actually a carbon core wire and it will cut voltage back a lot. Get a piece of new plug wire and save the old ends from the carbon wire so you can use them again. If it is carbon core you won't believe the difference when you change to metal.
I bet half the cars out there have carbon coil wires.
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Carbon wires add 5k ohm resistance to each plug wire, add another 5k ohm resistance from a carbon coil wire, then add another 5k ohm resistance for resistor spark plugs. All of the sudden you are 15k over specs!
Make sure you are getting full throttle also!
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Carbon wires add 5k ohm resistance to each plug wire, add another 5k ohm resistance from a carbon coil wire, then add another 5k ohm resistance for resistor spark plugs. All of the sudden you are 15k over specs!
Make sure you are getting full throttle also!
And when you add 5K for the rotor you'd be lucky to get it to run.
Frankly, the right way to do this job is to remove the pump and look. Sometimes all of the info on our site leads the unsuspecting down rabbit holes.