Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Body, interior, paint, chrome, and cosmetic items => Topic started by: johnk on January 30, 2018, 18:12:22
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Gents,
I'm just about ready to send my buckets of parts in for cadmium plating from a complete car tear down, however I am realizing I may be dumping too much in the Yellow Cad bucket. What should I make sure gets silver Cad rather than yellow so they don't get added to the "I should have" list later? Of course I know the aluminum parts are excluded entirely. Right now I am aware of the following but I'm guessing there is much more:
Silver Cad:
radiator expansion tank cap and straps
power steering reservoir clamp
soft top compartment latch
steel oil lines to and from the oil filter
What about:
trunk latch
gas lines under body
brake lines
brake calipers
anything else that's I haven't identified?
Any help is greatly appreciated!
Thanks
John k
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John,
I believe the radiator expansion cap I have is gold. It was purchased new.
The straps for the tank are silver. New they were $4 each a couple of years ago FROM Mercedes-Benz.
Trunk latch is silver.
I don't think the calipers were plated--raw cast iron.
Couple of points of interest--typically the parts must be stripped down, thus the radiator cap is a curiousity unless you've taken it all apart. Ditto, big time, on the brake calipers.
I don't know about the other things you asked about.
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I've plated rad caps many times as well as lines that contain rubber parts and I've had no problems with anything. It appears that the plating process has no effect on rubber parts. I would keep away from hollow components or anything electrical though.
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Oilfillercap and several hoseclamps silver
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Thats a great point about the compression fitting or lines compressed to a rubber hose. I was wondering how to deal with them. They are too expensive to replace if still good just to make the metal parts look better. Thanks doc!
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I think the calipers would look better natural or black anyways. I just have a 2012 motoring investments picture showing they did them in yellow cad. I do have a brake rotor cut-out pic from a 1969 sales brochure which shows the calipers as black. Not sure if its a real pic or artist rendering though.
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the attached picture from an unknown source makes me thing the lines are silver, but then this engine has a black oil filter cover which is wrong
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sorry missed the attachment
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PMBPerformance.com will rebuild and refinish your calipers and the brake pressure balance valve that is mounted near the rear axle. They insist all ATE calipers were gold zinc plated (I don’t agree) and their site has several good videos that show what they can do for you. They rebuilt my brake pressure balance valve and the cost was reasonable. I believe MotoringInvestments may use them on their restoration cars based on the photos on their site.
The clamps for the heat shield between the intake/exhaust manifolds are silver Cad as are all virtually all hose clamps. The heavy gauge clamps such as on the steering wheel and ignition to steering wheel are gold. Some wiring support clips are silver and some are gold cad.
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As Yogi Berra said deja vu all over again.
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=13688.0
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=17477.
(https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=13688.0;attach=8631;image)
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What I have found of my 280 SL (built 9/69):
Brake lines are silver, nuts of them are yellow
Fuel lines are silver.
Brake calipers were black painted, under the paint is yellow zinc/CAD.
Oil lines are yellow.
Radiator cap (BEHR) is yellow.
Rubber itself does not cause problem for plating process. High strength steels as springs, spring washers and "hard bolts" may crack caused by hydrogen.
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John,
here are some photos of some pipes in my three cars that I am pretty sure were originally Cad-yellow plated.
I have indicated them with yellow arrows.
The transmission oil pipes fur sure were yellow.
When Joe had the 280 SL engine apart we decided to CAD plate all of them as you can see in the last photo.
I would not worry too much whether to go Cad-yellow or Cad-silver, in 10 years they'll be grey anyway. ;D
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This may help.
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I've plated rad caps many times as well as lines that contain rubber parts and I've had no problems with anything. It appears that the plating process has no effect on rubber parts. I would keep away from hollow components or anything electrical though.
Yes, that is true and I have done it many times with my home zinc plating kit. Rubber and plastic are ok, but don't be surprised if they get discolored or wrecked in the plating process . They are exposed to strong acid and the plating solution. Not all rubber and plastic parts are created equal.
You also have to make sure those "foreign" parts are perfectly clean. It could spoil the plating solution and why some companies won't accept items with non-metal parts. It is a gamble and you have to weigh the risks.
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All things to consider. My plating guy has never asked me not to bring anything with rubber on it. I assume he knows what to do and his work comes back looking nice.
We prepare all of the parts here at the shop by cleaning in solvent, drying, sandblasting most of them, and then hand polishing each piece before plating. Metal parts have to be perfectly clean and polished to take a nicely finished appearance.
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John,
The engine picture you are using is off by 10 miles. I have used that same photo as an example of a bad job. The oil cooler lines are indeed yellow cad. The oil filler cap if your’s is steel is also silver as well. Brake calipers were originally yellow cad but since Mercedes now supplies them in plain Zinc that means either is correct. If you do decide to pull your calipers apart I have extra sealing o-rings for the 2 halves that are very hard to find(I am just up in Cleveland Heights)I bought all the kits and had the calipers replated then decided to just buy 4 brand new Ate calipers. If you are completly swinging for the fences you will find the new oil cooler hoses are off from original by a mile. The original yellow anodized aluminum ends are reusable. I have a source for the correct fabric wrapped hose.
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PMB Performance will sell you the small o-rings for between the caliper halves. Their videos also give the torque settings for when you bolt the halves back together. I think it was 15 ft-lbs.
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Thanks everyone. This is extremely helpful! Unfortunatly as Alfred stated this will all turn the same color in a few years anyways. I have to believe the calipers are plated at first before they were painted, or at least partially. My original front calipers look almost black with rust coming through like they were never coated, but the rears look like they were plated and are currently silver.
I cleaned all of the parts using a Harbor Freight parts washer with water based Purple Power Cleaner. I heat the cleaner up to 110 degrease using a $25 bucket heater from Tractor supply. That works great. Listening to Dr. Benz's comment again I am going to treat all of the visible parts with the wire wheel on my bench grinder. I was only using the wire wheel for some of them originally.
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Calipers were most definatly plated as the bore of the caliper needs the plating for corrosion protection. I also bought an NOS Ate caliper in a very old box that was yellow cad plated.
There are a very few parts that should be black oxide treated as well. The caliper bolts and crankshaft hub bolt are black oxide along with the pivot bolt for the brakes behind the brake booster, the 2 bolts that mount the compensating spring mount on the right, the center pivot shoulder bolt for the upper alternator bracket and one other shoulder bolt that escapes me right now.
Caliper bolts are supplied new from Mercedes in plain Zinc now but as mercakungen pointed out replating hardened bolts can be a worry due to Hydrogen Enbrittlement. I know the shop John is taking his parts to and they are well aware of how to deal with baking the parts etc to prevent this so not a worry there.
One more silver part is the exhaust heat shield screwed to the firewall.
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Here is some factory photos of an early 280 engine(Large Aluminum oil cap) for reference. Unfortunately in black and white but other than the few parts mentioned all else is yellow cad plated. Notice on the exhaust side the water jacket covers are painted black and the throttle pivot cover is not. Also the guides for the positive battery cable are painted black.
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Pat,
Great pictures thanks. Good point on the heat shields. I wasn't sure how they were finished but I might as well throw them in the buckets rather than messing with a heat-resistant paint that needs to be baked.
John
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...I am going to treat all of the visible parts with the wire wheel...
Now THAT'S a lot of work. Get yourself a vibratory tumbler and spend your time on other things! You'll get more consistent results with a tumbler.
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Mike,
where do i get one of those tumblers? I haven't done all of the small stuff yet.
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For the smaller stuff, there are smaller ones from Harbor Freight, etc.
https://www.harborfreight.com/5-lb-metal-vibrator-tumbler-67617.html
They also have an 18 lb version.
For faster results, but perhaps a bit more invasive, a rotary tumbler. Just search for those...these tend to be a bit smaller.
If you want a large capacity, a small cement mixer (yes, you heard that right) works fine too--provided it's new. Harbor Freight and others have ones just larger than a cubic foot capacity that work well. In those, just plain fine sand works well.
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Now THAT'S a lot of work. Get yourself a vibratory tumbler and spend your time on other things! You'll get more consistent results with a tumbler.
Using a small tumbler, what sort of media would you use to avoid rounding off sharp corners like on hex nuts and such?
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Thanks Mike! I am heading to Harbor Freight right now. I was procrastinating on the smaller stuff hoping something like this tumbler would work having read one of your previous posts.
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Take a look at the attached which I pulled from the link ctaylor posted today. It makes is look like the rear caliper is bare cast iron painted black along with the differential assembly, which supports why my rear caliper seem to be a rusty black, much different than my fronts. The picture next to it could show a hint of yellow on the little bit you can see of the front calipers.
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Using a small tumbler, what sort of media would you use to avoid rounding off sharp corners like on hex nuts and such?
In a vibratory tumbler, it would be pretty hard to round off anything. The usual media is some version of walnut shells with a polish compound. But, for more aggressive you could try any number of fine abrasives. Somethings I've tumbled I've had in there for many days--it's a slow process.
Rotary is an entirely different issue...far faster...
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JohnK,
I tend to look at anything in sales literature with suspicion. In the link you provided if you look at the rear axle you will notice that the clamps for the center boot don't really stick out very much which means to me that the entire rear was probably painted grey to make it more photogenic. Also to the right of that picture there is a picture of a front suspension that appears to show a gold caliper.
Here is my go to photo from the assembly line during the period our cars were made. If you download it and blow it up it would appear the caliper is indeed gold.
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The BBB seems to agree.
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Thanks Pat. This is a great picture.
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Shvegel, how can you tell from BBB that the caliper is yellow plated?
I am not challenging the point, just curious.
There was a long discussion on the forum about the colour of the calipers. I thought it was concluded they were natural metal colour. Yet now we say they were yellow plated... fine...
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Just a note on the fuel lines. It would be a good time to rebuild them with newer up to date ethanol resistant hoses. You can remove the old hoses from the fittings and hardline by cutting off the collet lengthwise. Get the hard-pipe cad plated and then take your old hoses (for length reference) to a hydraulic shop to replace the hose and re crimp new collets onto them. The collets/ferrels and crimping tool can also be purchased from Grainger if you want to do it yourself. Be sure to observe the correct "clocking" of the fittings on the hoses.
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Pawell66, I posted the black and white photo from the BBB(Big Blue Book or Factory Mercedes Service manual) just to show the calipers were not painted black as in the sales brochure photo but you will also notice they appear to be lighter than bare cast Iron. The color photo of the assembly line as well as the small photo of the front suspension from the sales brochure sure looks like a gold caliper to me. Alfred's (66andblue who has owned his car since new) photo which looks fairly vintage shows a Gold caliper and black oxide bolts. Besides all that all Ate calipers of the period used by the other manufacturers (Volvo, BMW, Porsche, Saab) were gold Zinc or Cad. All of that said Mine are going to be gold but the judging standard for Mercedes events is as the car left the factory or whatever Mercedes is supplying today. Modern Ate calipers are supplied in plain Zinc plating so that would be correct too.
From an ideological standpoint raw Cast Iron just wouldn't make any sense to me as Mercedes finished or painted everything under the car that was not cast Aluminum and then sprayed the entire bottom of the car from end to end with Waxoil or Cosmoline to further keep it from corroding. Why would they take something that was potentially visable and suceptable to internal corrosion and leave it bare so it turns into a blob of rust? That just isn't the Mercedes way.
Here is a good overview from PMB brake who are the rebuilders of choice for Porsche calipers.
http://www.pmbperformance.com/calipers.html
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Ok, thank you!
Again, not challenging anything, just wanted the knowledge.
Saying "natural color" was simplification - I meant they had to be coated with something that looked in color similar to natural cast metal. Sure they could not have been left uncoated.
So yellow plated. Pity I did not know it 5 years ago when mine were done. Truth is also, probably, that after a couple of years they went greyish...
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I didn't view you question as an attack. Far from it. We have to question each other if we are to ever move forward in our collective knowledge. Nothing holds up on calipers because it is such a harsh enviroment and I am pretty sure the judges at a Mercedes event are not supposed to look under the car anyway. At the end of the day we spend time and energy on trying to figure out which coating to apply only to watch it wear off in minutes.
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At the end of the day we spend time and energy on trying to figure out which coating to apply only to watch it wear off in minutes.
True!
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Tyler,
I was trying to avoid bending new brake lines but your are right. I need to take the time to make up new lines. I even have the flaring tool.
Thanks
Johnk
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As mentioned in a previous response on this topic. PMB Performance restores ATE brake calipers. Their claim is that all ATE calipers were originally yellow Zinc plated. Their videos show the restoration process including black zinc plating the bolts for the caliper halves and replacing the small flat rubber washer. When I saw they rebuild the brake pressure balancer for Porsche 914's I remembered that the 914 balancer looked very similar to the one in my 280SL. PMB Performance restored my brake pressure balancer including plating and painting.
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Motoring Investments "Holy Grail" has black calipers as mine had too. Here´s a photo of my calipers after the black paint has been removed. The calipers are yellow.
The master cylinder and the booster has been replaced so I´m not sure if these calipers are originals.
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mercakungen,
There is still a world of things we have not explored. The tough part is that our cars are now about 50 years old and it seems rather unlikely that at sometime someone didn't replace the calipers. I went back and looked at the "Holy Grail" again and you are correct the calipers are painted black which means they were either painted that way from the factory or were touched up later in life. Again we don't know it they are the originals. it could even be something as oddball as when the alloy wheels were added as an option (1969?) that they were having customers complain about the calipers were looking bad as you could see them through the wheels. Maybe at that point they decided to paint black over the gold Zinc or Cad? It is definately one of the more intersting finish questions on the car. I wish whomever bought the 18,000 mile 280Sl at Goodings auction at Pebble Beach in 2016 was known to us. Eventually someone will put the time and effort into finding these cars and documenting them for the restorers of the future.
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Rather than GUESS at what may be, might have been--why doesn't one of our European and or German-speaking members investigate this?
ATE has a Classic Division, just like Bosch has a Classic Division and MB has the Classic Center.
http://www.ate-brakes.com/products/ate-classic/
by e-mail: ate-classic@continental-corporation.com
Hotline: 01805-221242
It may take several phone calls, and a bit of investigation...but I'm sure an answer can be found.
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Most of the remanufactured calipers I have seen are painted black. When I restored my calipers, the 2 rears had remnants of black paint. When I wire wheeled the calipers there was no evidence of zinc plating under the paint. There was no paint on the fronts but mainly silver plating with a slight tint of gold. I am not the original owner.
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Mine is the same as your doitwright. Black rears with slight rust and no sign of plating to keep it from rusting. fronts are silver with with no rust.
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I sent an email to the Classic Center in California asking if they have any documentation regarding the finish on the calipers. I will let you know if they reply.
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For the last almost 40 years, every new ATE caliper that i saw coming out of a blue ATE box was zincplated.
Even most other rebuilt ones from companies specializing in rebuilding calipers
here in Europe such as Budweg, NK and others came with the same finish.
Hans
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Hans,
I agree completly. However we have a few low mileage cars in the US that have black painted calipers. They seem to be later cars like 1969 and later. I can totally see if a car has alloy wheels where the caliper is visable that a mechanic or even the owner might paint them because they might look a little shabby but both Cars I have seen had full wheel covers where it is nearly impossible to see the calipers.
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Just heard back from Tom Hanson at the Classic Center. His reply was "Gold zinc, never black."
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Well, not exactly what I was hoping for...
Anybody else?
Maybe we just "do not buy that"? ;) ;) ;)
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Mine were definitely yellow with black bolts and thats what I did again. The colour has faded a bit just from being in storage so I cant imagine they would have looked fresh for very long in normal day to day use.
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Remember guys, zinc, or zinc with a phosphate wash (gold zinc) are sacrificial coatings. The moment they hit the atmosphere they begin to degrade. First, the gold color dissipates and this protective passivation disappears, then the underlying zinc eventually oxidizes and sloughs away leaving you with raw cast iron. The raw cast iron isn't in any danger of "rusting away" like sheet metal, so it becomes more of a cosmetic thing. I've never heard anyone say, "Oh, my cast iron brake calipers rotted away!" If that were to ever happen I'd think there wouldn't be much automobile left...
Remember, the standards of zinc or cadmium plating is done with a salt spray test, and the results are measured in hours, not decades...
The caliper rebuilders (of which I pointed to a few previously in the USA) will do pretty much whatever finish you want on the rebuilt calipers. You can get a plating as noted--still sacrificial and not long for this earth--or paint, baked on or rattle can, or powder coat. And of course, if you paint or powder coat you can get it to look like plating if you so choose.
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When I restored the underside of my W111, I chose the yellow CAD/zinc look for the calipers. I had seen it somewhere and looked original, so I went for it. Because my calipers were new, I decided to use a high temp caliper paint to get that look. It was a concoction of various colors to get close. Besides, I was not sure what the plating process would do to the critical bore finish in the caliper. BTW, the red inspection dots were on the lock plate and bolts before I took it apart. And also for reference, the calipers as from ATE were a clear zinc finish that has a slight blue tint from the chromate.
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Wallace, Thanks so much for posting that picture. I was sure my axle had red dots on the housing where the caliper bolts were but neglected to take a picture of them. i have been looking for a picture online but had not found one yet. That was what I needed to finish my rear axle. Done!
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So I took Mike's advice and bought a $40 tumbler at harbor freight along with coarse walnut shells and a $13 package of polishing compounds. The results are amazing and everything comes out looking like new silver cad and it only takes about 5 minutes every two days to screen out the clean parts and put in a dirty batch. Very little effort for the results. Because I bought the small tumbler I cant put in parts greater than 4 inches or so. Of the four types of polishing compound that come in the package the "pre=polish" seems to work the best is making the parts look new before they go in for plating.
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Pat, No problem on the pic and glad it helped. I made several notations of the paint dabs when I took the rear apart and also took pics of the front end parts for that future project. These cars are loaded with inspection dabs and much more so than my '60 Ponton coupe. Not all of the dabs survive time and so you find some on yours and compare to someone else's. 280SEGUY used to have a picture site and had many inspection dabs from his beautifully maintained 280SE sedan. You might PM him to see if that still exists. BTW, how did you finish your caliper to get the yellow CAD look?
I will look into the tumbler and thanks for reviewing that.
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Wallace, I started rebuilding my old calipers. I cleaned them up and had them plated then decided to just buy 4 new ones...ouch! They came silver zinc and were already mottled in spots so I decided to dust them with a "concoction" of 2 colors of paint removing 2 bolts at a time then overcoated it with Nyalic which is a low gloss clear that they use on Airstream trailers. It is pretty bizare stuff that I use on all my aluminum parts. A light coat is undetectable but on the calipers I went a little heavy. If it doesn't burn right off hopefully they will stay gold for more than a minute.
This detail stuff is a drug. I enjoy it but right after I took that picture I made new brake lines because these had an extra bend at the caliper that wasn't supposed to be there.
Is that an original Phoenix tire on on your SE?
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Yes, I am a detail junkie as well and appreciate your struggles for perfection! No, those are Coker's tires. If had to get new tires, I would go with the Diamond Back WW w/ Vredestein. I have those with the wide WW on my Ponton coupe and the white stays white. I struggle with the Phoenix WW as they yellow and stain quickly. BTW, I clear most of my parts with either Hi temp engine clear (w/ ceramic) or a version of Nylac.
Fun, fun, fun.
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So I took Mike's advice and bought a $40 tumbler...results are amazing and everything comes out looking like new...very little effort for the results.
I would not steer you wrong. I've had my vibratory tumbler for years. When I owned a car wash I made change in tokens, not cash--and often when the tokens came back or if they sat in a wet coin box for a while, they came to be pretty nasty. So every few weeks, I'd take the load of them, dump them into the tumbler and let them vibrate away for a few days. Voila--new looking tokens. I've since used it for a number of things automotive related on the Pagoda...
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I would not steer you wrong. I've had my vibratory tumbler for years. When I owned a car wash I made change in tokens, not cash--and often when the tokens came back or if they sat in a wet coin box for a while, they came to be pretty nasty. So every few weeks, I'd take the load of them, dump them into the tumbler and let them vibrate away for a few days. Voila--new looking tokens. I've since used it for a number of things automotive related on the Pagoda...
I just bought mine from HF and lets see how it does. I bought both plastic bits and ceramic. I agree, for small nuts, bolts and especially flat washers, this could be a real time saver. Flat washers are a pain to abrasive blast. You have to get the entire surface spotless or else it will show up as a blight when plated.
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I have a tumbler too and can confirm that it takes a rather long time to clean up parts. I had my hood hinges in there for a week until they were “clean”. That’s why I am surprised to see that one would attempt to clean or blast off the shelf standard parts? For example, 6mm flat washers are anywhere from $2 to $5 depending on the finish / material for a bag of 100?
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True. But some washers are not common sizes and one cannot find a yellow CAD plated washer in the hardware store. Zinc yes, but not CAD. I typically clear most of my plated hardware after installation. The clear significantly prolongs the life of the plated finish but is only effective on freshly plated parts. The plating on hardware bolts is an unknown age and has already probably started to bloom and degrade. Yes, I am a detail junkie as I said earlier.
But, I do not reuse split lock washers. I tried plating some in the past and they broke during installation due to hydrogen embrittlement. I am not going to go to the expense of treating those. And, those are typically all standard sizes.
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For lock washers (Both split and "wavy") I just buy new ones from Belmetric.