Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Drive train, fuel, suspension, steering & brakes => Topic started by: Pawel66 on January 08, 2018, 15:51:06
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I woudl like to enquire if anyone has knowledge about this. I saw just one not answered post on this topic in the forum.
When I take the part numbers from EPC for fuel filter (found, obviously, in air cleaner section), we have A0014771001, which is Knecht unit and does not produce a lot of search results anywhere and A0014773001, a Bosch one, which appears in a lot of places. Bosch number is 0450 108 003.
I found two types of the plate in terms of how they look, let's call them "nice one" and "less nice one" (below). I have the "less nice" type on my car.
Is it the same housing just with plate lost (although the part on the picture with "less nice" plate looks quite new)?
Or are these something like "early" and "late" type of plates on the filter housing? They both have the same Bosch number.
I searched for these plates being sold anywhere, but with no results. You find Bosch plates for horns, ignition distributors, but not this one. Is there a vendor who sells these plates?
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There is a guy in Germany who sells these plates new. I'll see if I can find his contact info. I know he sold distributor, injection pump tags and I think CSV tags and not sure what else.
The original plates are over the top nice and must have been expensive to make. The new ones such as on a new CSV part are of a lesser quality. While I don't know for sure, my guess would be that the one with the stamped number is a newer replacement. Those tags are expensive to produce in small numbers and stamping is cheap. Just my guess.
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Wallace, thank you! it would be great to dig out that vendor.
That was also my thinking on replacing the nice with less nice because of the cost...
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FYI
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Thank you, Michael!
Kein Ersatz - not leaving much hope if replacement needed... ;)
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Contact this vendor:
http://stores.ebay.de/oldtimerteilehandelgoch/_i.html?LH_TitleDesc=1&rt=nc&_nkw=Bosch%20schild&_sid=1017172499&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1581&_pgn=3
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Thank you, will do!
I did. What a beautiful vendor! :)
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Alfred is the man! Yes, that is the vendor and pretty sure I got his name from Alfred to begin with. He is easy to deal with.
Wallace
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He sure is! :)
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I am pushing on this a bit...
I contacted the vendor Alfred was so kind to give and asked if they had this Bosch plate. They do not have it, but they would make it for me (or for anyone here). They asked for dimensions: length, height and the distance between rivets.
I can give him these approximate measures when I get to the car on Saturday. Approximate because all I have is the base for the plate (a bit bigger than the plate itself) and some sad remains of the rivets.
If any of you have a filter with a plate on it, if it is not too much trouble, maybe you could measure these three dimensions and post it - I would than give the vendor more accurate information.
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Pawel,
That is interesting that he might be able to make it. Maybe it could be a club project kind of like the firewall pads. That filter unit is very common but not sure if the number is the same for SL and SEs. I will look tonight because I am pretty sure my original tag is off the car for safe keeping. If so, I can provide a very detailed drawing for you. I will look.
And it may not hurt to see if he could make the correct CSV tag and injection pump tags. Those should be common between the SL and SEs. My question is if the new tag has the raised silver graphic or is the graphic totally flat. The original ones had the design and numbers raised about .010", while the black background was lower.
Wallace
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Wallace,
Sure, let's do it.
1. If the same plate was on the filter for SE? I will try to look in Bosch catalogue, but please look at it on your side as well. The number on the plate is, certainly, Bosch part number.
2. I also thought of the CSV (picture attached). Please take a look and verify if this is the correct plate and please give me dimensions. Will ask him.
3. I will ask about the raised letters, but I am afraid it is a flat black print on the plate. If this is the case - no interest? I will go for it anyway.
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Wallace,
On installation of this filter on SE series:
1. The Bosch number from the plate 0450108003 corresponds to Meredes number A0014773001. The vehicles list where this filter was fitted you have in the attachment.
2. I checked briefly Bosch records on one of the W111 cars - it is on the equipment list for a car (attached). But you may take a look at it to check on which SE you want to have it.
The Bosch link is here: http://www.bosch-classic.com/en/internet/bosch_classic/startseite/startpage.html
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On the raised letters, as I said, I will ask, but below are links to two listings of this vendor. Some look like having the raised letters, some not:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Typenschild-Schild-Bosch-Q-80-S-105-Oldtimer-/362056274045?hash=item544c3c507d
http://www.ebay.de/itm/schild-Bosch-Typenschild-FP-K-22-M13-/362056284310?hash=item544c3c7896
https://www.ebay.de/itm/Typenschild-Bosch-schild-id-plate-oldtimer-Hupe-Verteiler-Magentzundung-/362056026532?hash=item544c3889a4
http://www.ebay.de/itm/schild-Bosch-Typenschild-FP-K-22-M13-/362056284310?hash=item544c3c7896
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Pawel,
I have bought from him before and same deal, some were raised some not. Of course I would prefer the raised letters, but beggars cannot be choosers. So yes, I would go with the flat graphic if the raised is not available.
The fuel filter number is 0 450 108 003 and so yes, the W111 and most likely the W108 cars will have the same unit as the W113. I will measure the size in a bit.
My CSV is the same and is EP/EV 2/4. I would assume the that the W111 and W108 are the same for the earlier larger unit. The later units were smaller and not the same. I have a spare body and so I can measure that one as well.
The injection pump may be doable but would have to provide as a blank. Then you could get it etched with the exact number. there are just too many versions of that to reasonably expect to get a pre-stamped tag.
I'll get back to you,
Wallace
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Wallace,
Thank you.
I would most likely need to receive a bit of a steer as for what number should be put on old (larger) and new (smaller) plate for CSD.
For fuel injection pump - I can look for a good picture and give dimensions of the one I have on car - a bit tricky, I guess, as it is "down there" with difficult access. I think if you had one on the bench, it would be helpful.
I can then dig for pictures of the FIP plates, but it looks like they were not the same across the years. I guess if you need a specific blank one, I would need to know which one too...
Look, this is what he has for FIP:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Typenschild-Bosch-Schild-data-plate-Einspritzpumpe-PES-4-/362056287340?hash=item544c3c846c
But the plate is different than the one we see in, e.g. Tech Manual. I found three types of FIP/governor plates just by Google search (one attached). So I gues we would have to be specific here...
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Here are the dimensions for the tag. And yes, the fuel filter and CSV are the same size. Attached is a picture of the CSV tag. Both the CSV and fuel filter tag are raised, whereas the Injection pump tags are flat.
As far as the injection pump, here is what is on mine. I assume this is for English speaking countries and maybe the US specifically? I am pretty sure they are the same size as in the link you sent me. Does he publish the tag dimensions? Seems like there would be a big market for blank tags like this.
It would be great to get these items made!
Wallace
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Wallace,
Excellent, thank you!
I will wrap it up and post to the vendor later today. I will use the images from you.
No need for two sizes for CSD (early and late)?
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Enclosed is the brief for vendor. If any remarks, please let me know. I intend to send it tonight.
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Pawel,
Nice work and I see you provided both in German and English. Very thoughtful of you. I am not sure what the tag is for the later and smaller CSV. It was used when Mercedes omitted the starting solenoid I believe. I am interested in the one shown which is for the early and larger size.
One thing I just noticed is that all the original tags say "Made in Germany". I wouldn't think they would say that world-wide? Lets see what he comes up with. Thanks for your work on this!
Wallace
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Wallace,
I am also not sure about smaler CSV version. It could as well have been omitted as in case of fuel filter.
I have reviewed lots of the pictures of these plates. I have not seen anything other than made in Germany. On the horns plates it is different - it in 90% of cases is imported from Germany in French. I have no idea why it is so.
Pawel
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Early one?
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Ok, the vendor responded they will have the plates ready by end of February.
We will see.
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Clearly I am no expert on CSVs. See attached below. I have not heard of the 2/1 version.
https://www.authenticclassics.com/Bosch-Cold-Start-Valve-EP-EV-2-1-0-437-900-002-p/auth-008793.htm Says it is for 230SL and 220SE W111 cars.
https://www.authenticclassics.com/Bosch-Cold-Start-Valve-EP-EV-2-4-0-437-900-005-p/auth-008794.htm Says it is for Is for 250 and some earlier 280 models.
And the later small one http://www.authenticclassics.com/Bosch-Cold-Start-Valve-EP-EV-2-7-0-437-900-009-p/auth-008795.htm And you are correct, they did away with the name plate on the small 2/7 version
Interestingly the 2/1 has the nicer tag and the 2/4 has a cheapo tag. The tech manual only lists two CSVs and no mention of the 2/1. Maybe someone far more knowledgeable than me can confirm these CSV models. I am excited that the tags may be produced. Please let me know when you hear something. You might start a post to see if there is interest from other members.
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Wallace, thank you! More light on the mysteries of the components of our cars...
I checked the part number 0437900005 - it is the EP/EV 2/4. Apparently Bosch changed the plate some time from type communication to part number communication. And cheapened the plate...
I think what we asked the vendor for is quite common. This is the type I have on my car.
Well, let's not praise the day before the sunset.... Keeping my fingers crossed we will get those plates.
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The vendor suggests the dimensions of the FIP tags are 18x38mm. Does this seem correct? I am not close to my car to try to verify and confirm...
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I am thinking he is correct. I have the tag in my hands from my 220SE two plunger pump and one that I bought from him that is new. Both are 18mm x 38mm. I seem to recall that it is that same on the 6 plunger pump that we are wanting. But I will check tomorrow and confirm for sure.
Giving his willingness, I wonder if he is interested in making tags for my W128 220SE coupe? I have all of the original tags off the car and can provide pictures and dimensions. Could you ask when you get back to him?
Thanks.
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Wallace,
Thank you! I was measuring the dimensions of the plate from a picture, taking 17mm nut as a reference, then rectangle ratio, it seems it is 18x38mm, but if it is one day to confirm - I will wait.
I will certainly ask him about W128, but then it is probably best if you get to him with specific task (he speaks German, but English-German Google translator is working good).
Maybe his technological process is allowing for small scale without major issues.
He showed me he, actually, had the designs for fuel filter and CSV in his library, he used what we gave him to find them. The catalogue dimensions are exactly like you measured :).
By the way: the vendor is a Pagoda owner.
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Yes, both IP pump tags are 18mm x 38mm! I am working on the W128 tags and will send that later. I didn't want to delay the other tags.
Thanks,
Wallace
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Pawel,
Attached are pictures and dimensions for the W128 tags. Please forward this to the vendor and hopefully he has something or can make them.
1) Dimension sheet - Note: Both CSV and fuel filter tags are the same size and part numbers are etched, not raised or printed. IP tag is also etched. Distributor has part numbers raised in the tag.
2) IP tag - only one tag on the two plunger pump
3) Distributor tag
4) Fuel filter tag
We only get 4 attachments - so CSV tag is on next post
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Continuing:
5) CSV tag
Let me know how this is going!
Thanks for your hard work on this.
Wallace
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Wallace, thank you!
I will confirm the FIP dimensions.
I will ask about W 128 (I will need them too). Two points:
1. Are you sure the last picture is the CSV tag and the one before the last one is fuel filter? Not vice-versa?
2. A question there: would you like to vendor to, actually, engrave the part numbers on the plates? If yes - do you know the part number that goes on the plate on picture No.5 (the last one you sent)?
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No, for sure the curved one (last picture) is the CSV because it mounts on the curved surface of the CSV body. This CSV is radically different from later versions as you know. The part number is EP/EV 1/2 Q. The flat one (black background has vanished) is the fuel filter. I have all the numbers on the tags written down. I have a guy in the US who does a great job of etching. But if he can do it, that would be easier. Let me know and I will send all of the part numbers.
Thanks,
Wallace
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Wallace, maybe just send them. I will include them in the brief.
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Please kindly take a look and verify the brief. Particularly the flat/raised print part.
Wallace, when you say "etched" - do you mean engraved? I check the dictionary and "etched" means done with acid... I think it is just engraved in the plate, correct?
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You are correct and that is my poor English - it should be engraved. :-[
As a note:
- All of the tags for the W128 have raised letters "Bosch Germany..." and includes the raised boss on the distributor tag for the engraved 12005309 number.
- The numbers in the raised boss (I believe?) is a serial number. The numbers below that is the part number description for the pump. So the serial number should change for each pump.
- The distributor and CSV tags are curved when mounted, but probably are flat when manufactured.
- Only the distributor has raised numbers/letters for the part number. All others are engraved.
- What does Konvex refer to?
Part numbers:
FIP - EP/ZEA2KL75R3Z my serial number is 12005309
CSV - EP/EV 1/2 Q
Fuel filter - F1/DZ2/33
Distributor - VJUR 6 BR 49 T
Your brief looks great. Thanks again!
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Wallace, we are very close :). My comments/clarifications below, next to your text, in italics:
You are correct and that is my poor English - it should be engraved. :-[ OK
As a note:
- All of the tags for the W128 have raised letters "Bosch Germany..." and includes the raised boss on the distributor tag for the engraved 12005309 number. To ocnfirm: "Bosch Germany Importe d'Alemagn" and the empty field on FIP tag are raised; FIP, not distributor
- The numbers in the raised boss (I believe?) is a serial number. The numbers below that is the part number description for the pump. So the serial number should change for each pump. OK
- The distributor and CSV tags are curved when mounted, but probably are flat when manufactured. The dimensions you gave - they are measured when tag is flat, correct?
- Only the distributor has raised numbers/letters for the part number. All others are engraved. OK
- What does Konvex refer to? It is supposed to be same as raised letters, I hope.
Part numbers: OK
FIP - EP/ZEA2KL75R3Z my serial number is 12005309
CSV - EP/EV 1/2 Q
Fuel filter - F1/DZ2/33
Distributor - VJUR 6 BR 49 T
Please take a look at the corrected brief.
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Correct - FIP - The empty field area is raised as are the areas you mentioned. Sorry, I said Distributor in my last post and should have been FIP :-[
Correct - Distributor tag - the numbers, letters and Bosch symbols are raised. I am also including the Oval border around the tag that is raised. All black background areas are lower.
Dimensions for the curved pieces were given as flat. I had to estimate, but that matched what we had done before.
I appreciate your thoroughness. That is what it takes to get this right!
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Thank you! Well, I just want to avoid "It was supposed to be great, but it came out as usual."
You know: A camel is a horse, it is just designed by the Board of Directors.
Final brief attached.
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You know: A camel is a horse, it is just designed by the Board of Directors.
Well, let's not praise the day before the sunset.... Keeping my fingers crossed we will get those plates.
You know, you are quite a philosopher!
Brief looks great.
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Wallace, he said he would make it - the W128 set. I just asked for leadtime and price.
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Ok, mid to end of February. About EUR 15 for each tag.
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Great! I am sure we aren't the only ones looking at this thread and I am quite surprised more haven't posted they are interested as well. Could be a once in a lifetime opportunity to get these. I will definitely get two sets of each of the W128 and W113/W111 tags.
And as my Dad used to say, "Make hay while the sun shines". And with old Mercedes parts, that saying cannot be more true. Pawel, It has been a pleasure working with you and I look forward to late February.
Wallace
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Ok, glad to hear that!
Well, "do not praise..." applies here.
I was an optimist when I was young, I still am, but now I am better informed.
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Some of the items are on e-bay now. FIP plate for Pagoda is missing, will come in March.
Descriptions of items are messed up, I asked him to correct them for easier search.
I am not sure about quality... I will see how they look like in real life. On the picture they do not look too good...
Ponton
https://www.ebay.de/itm/273069084840
https://www.ebay.de/itm/362241267771
https://www.ebay.de/itm/273069043095
https://www.ebay.de/itm/273069041059
Pagoda
https://www.ebay.de/itm/273069047680
https://www.ebay.de/itm/362241262299
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That is exciting but I agree, the pictures don't look that great. The items I have bought from him in the past were really nice. Not all were raised letters, but they looked like they could have come from Bosch.
Two comments on the Ponton FIP tag - EP/ZEA.... the number on mine was engraved and not a permanent part of the tag. I would think that would be better for him so it would be more universal. Also the number isn't quite right EP/ZEA2KL75R3Z is what mine is and his tag has ...78R3Z
It looks like all of these have the raised letters and are not totally flat which is good. Are you going to buy some to check out? That would be nice if you could because it is a pain shipping to the US and I would rather get them all at once. let me know and thank you for posting.
Wallace
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Wallace, yes I ordered a set, we will see. The uneven edge may just be a question of filing it a bit. Anyway, they are magnified on the picture, maybe look better in reality.
I will let him know about the number (75 vs. 78), which is clearly his mistake.
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OK. I look forward to your expert critique!
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Ok, I placed one plate on the car. I am quite happy, I have to say! It was 3min with small file to grind edges a bit and I just sprayed some clear varnish. To me it is ok.
I am also enclosing a wrap up of mistakes for the vendor to follow up if he choses to or if anyone asks him.
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Very exciting. I don't want to buy the ZEA IP pump tag until it is correct. But I agree, it looks certainly good enough in your picture. Thank you so much for all your hard work on this! Pagoda/W111and W128 owners around the world should rejoice! :)
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Wallace, thank you - I treat it as joint development :).
I think you then should write to this vendor and ask to correct the number and say you will order when this is done. I am using google translator, so my German is funny (i was learning the lanuguage, but then di not use it for 30 years), but it looks like it, sort of, works. He should see the interest - then I think he will act.
So far the "hit rate" of correctness is 50%. We will see the blank Pagoda FIP tags (not much room for mistakes).
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Pawel,
I did in fact already contact him and he said he would change "with the next turnaround end of March". I am not sure what that means exactly, but I asked him to contact me when the change was made.
Wallace
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I have no clue what it may mean, but better put on a suit...
That is when the FIP plate for Pagoda is coming. Not a lot of room for mistakes there, but let's see...
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Ok, so it looks like we have now on ebay blank FIP plate for Pagoda and a FIP plate for 220SE with corrected number (painted, not engraved).
There is also one more distributor plate, blue - this perhaps was asked for by you....
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Hi Pawel,
No, the distributor tag isn't for me. I did just order all of the tags for the 220SE W128 and the 280SE W111 cars that I have.
Well, I guess that does it! I have all of the tags I will ever need and then some. Thank you so much for pursuing this and I am glad it worked out so well. I just hope others on this site will take advantage of the work you did to be able to detail their engine bays.
Wallace
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I hope so too! Wish some of those were a bit more correct, but I htink we have now more than before.
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I received all my Bosch tags as per this thread. They look good! Not perfect, but way better than anything else I had. Well worth the money. No more excuses for missing or shoddy looking tags. Remarkably, he was able to reproduce some of the tags with the correct raised bright areas that is similar to the original.
I find the black background areas to be a bit flat. So I too will spray a very light coat of semi-gloss clear to even it up.
Thanks again Pawel!
Wallace
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Thank you, very kind of you! Happy you got what you were looking for.
It was bumpy road but hopefully worth going along....