Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Drive train, fuel, suspension, steering & brakes => Topic started by: Pawel66 on December 30, 2017, 10:22:58
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I cannot really find it on any drawings (except Niemoeller). I cannot also see any obvious place on the engine where some clamp could be screwed to. But it somewhat is logical to me that something should be holding this guide other than the base.
Could you kindly confirm or deny the existence of anything holding the guide in place?
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I don't think there is one, it's just a press fit.
The early 230SL have a different arrangement, with a clamp on the dipstick tube.
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Thank you!
Yes, I saw one on M127. Looked at many photographs of M130 - did not spot it.
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If you want to remove the dip stick tube on the M130 engine you need to drive it out from inside the aluminum belly pan.
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There is such a clamp on my 280 engine, and also on several spare ones I have. It is attached to the same point of the block that the reservoir for the power steering system attaches to. I will try to take a picture today and upload.
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Is there? Cees, then I would be much obliged if you could send a picture, thank you! I will then dig for the part number.
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Hopefully these will be visible (not sure how photo upload works)
P.s. I'd be happy to send you one of these clamps, if you can't locate it through the usual suspects.
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Cees, this is very kind of you, thank you!
I kept searching and in the meantime the only engine picture I could find that may show something like a guide clamp was the one below, from Wikipedia.
Thank you for your kind offer - let me look at what I can find and get back to you with kind request.
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I think I found it in the EPC:
clamp A1879950037 (probably not available at MB), will have to find something similar
Bracket A1300100040 (available at MB)
Hose A6219970482 (available at MB)
All PN for late engine.
They are under Maj. Assembly Engine, 18 Engine Lubrication. Guide is under 01 Engine. Ihad to know what I am looking for to find it...
Thank you, Cees, again!
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Most interesting. I checked my 280 SL and there is no clamp on the oil dipstick line. VIN 12730 (1970 model with Sept 69 build)
There is the bracket that Pawel mentions (1300100040) and clamp (1879960037) in place, but it does not clamp to the oil dipstick, it allows for a clamp to hold the oil line to the top of the oil cooler. This is also how it is shown in the diagram for Group 18 in the M130 parts book, 10180 (Edition B, as of May 1971).
The screw and lock washer for the clamp are 000912006002 and 000127 006203 respectively.
In the attached diagram they are parts 80-83, part 85 is the hose referred to 6219970482
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Look, of course, could be that I am wrong in my assumptions.
Where I was:
1. The part on the drawing and on the pictures in SLS catalogue looks similar to the part on the pictures from Cees.
2. When you get into parts descriptions in the EPC you will see that everything but the bracket is described "GUIDE TUBE TO BRACKET" (hose, clamp, screw, washer), when you highlight the hose, it mentiones the same clamp number, with the "GUIDE..." description. So those are for the guide tube for sure.
3. The only uncertain part is the bracket, you are absolutely right, especially that when you highlight bracket, you get also "Hose OIL COOLER TO FILTER" - so this bracket may be for that.
But again, it looks like the one on the pictures in SLS states it is next to "pump flange" - I think this is the one. Some theories may be:
1. its function changed over time and EPC is not really precise.
2. It performs more than one function - supports the guide tube and perhaps through a different clamp supports the oil hose.
I will give it a try and report back.
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I think it's part 74 here on SLS:
https://www.sls-hh-shop.de/main/de/mercedes-230-280sl-w113/03-motor-m127-m129-m130/01-kurbelgehaeuse
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Cees, yes, which is the same part as 49 here:
https://www.sls-hh-shop.de/main/en/mercedes-230-280sl-w113-/18-engine-lubrication
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Pawel,
part 49 (or 74) could be one of the brackets shown in the first photo (black arrows).
The others show that the the dipstick tube (p/n 114 010 00 66) on a 1968/69 M130 engine had no support bracket. The printed version of the M130 spare parts list (#10180) also does not list any changes for this tube.
Also in the EPC it's easy to get confused with the "guide tube" for the automatic transmission oil dispstick tube.
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Alfred, you are ruining the party! ;)
I see that one of them definitely is one of those brackets with an arrow. The other may be too, true.
I do not hink I am confusing it with transmission - the holder there is part of the guide, I think.
It is also true that I saw the bracket holding guide tube for the first time on the pictures from Cees. But then I found more traces (attached).
I am coming to the conclusion that perhaps size matters here as well (unfortunately!). Whenever I come across M130 shot at a right angle on the original car with the long guide - I see a trace of a clamp (attached)... One of them is 49er, I think.
I know I am talking to people who have seen hundreds of those engines. I will come back on this. I am probably wrong...
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Sorry, just added pictures that were missing. Found one in the BBB in the meantine.
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Pawel,
none of the pictures show 49er's car. His is an early one anyway: VIN is 003820 = June 1968.
the picture in the middle is a RHD
The photo in the BBB doesn't have to be a 280SL, could be a 300 SEL/8.
HOWEVER, your first pic is from a 1970 280SL on Brian's web site. Now if you had searched that car further you would have found your holy grail: the elusive clamp!
(http://historic.motoringinvestments.com/images/BB111/eng1.JPG)
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Pawel,
after looking at my 1964 230SL and the 1968 280SL a bit longer and searching the s.p.l. in more detail I came up with following for you.
The early 230SL M127 engines (from engine #169 - #2990 - with auto transmission) had a similar clamp (p/n 127 995 00 37) for the guide tube p/n 127 010 08 66. See first photo.
That guide tube was replaced (starting with engine #2991) by p/n 621 018 08 16 which was not clamped and remained in the M129 engines and the M130.983 engines until engine #005053.
Starting with engine #005054 a new guide tube p/n # 114 010 0066 was installed and that one required a clamp again. See 2nd photo. The clamp p/n listed is 187 995 00 63.
I wonder whether, this is a printing error and it could be the old p/n 127 995 00 63 that was on the early 230SL. However, it is also clear from my 230SL photo and the 280SL photo on Brian's 1970 280SL that the mounting orientation is different. I can't quite see in his photo the attachment point of clamp.
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Happy new year for everybody,
My late 280SL has one. You can see it on the photo (Matti´s 280 SL topic).
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Happy new year for everybody,
My late 280SL has one. You can see it on the photo (Matti´s 280 SL topic).
Happy New Year!
Thank you for contributing, very kind of you!
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Alfred,
Happy New Year!
First of all: thank you very much for digging into this!
It makes me feel less guilty that I was bothering people for a minor detail - but we have the full story now!
It just was lacking logic to me that a fairly long and fragile pipe is not held in place by anything - so I asked. I lost hope after the first few posts and then Cees gave it a new spark! (thank you Cees!).
On the pictures: the 49er picture and one I attached looked similar at a glance, I was not paying attention to the brake booster - true. And I was missing, I think, the picture of the Holy Grail's engine from left side...
I am also happy to hear that my "size matters" theory is sort of confirmed - clamp for a longer pipe.
As for part numbers:
1. EPC/Webparts do not recognize the number you quoted (A1879950063)
2. What EPC says (and what I think I can see in your book) is clamp number A1879950037 (this is the one I quoted in my post above). Webparts says it is not available - I asked a question to the dealer. If it is not available, I will kindly request a favour from Cees, maybe he has one...
The million dollar question to me is: what is the bracket I need? :)
I will see if I can fit the one I ordered.... maybe it is this one - that's my story and I'm sticking to it! ;)
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I'm sure I have a couple of these around. One caution in all of this I can see is that, although my car is a June '69 280 SL, the engine is not original to the car, but a factory replacement block. So other cars of the same vintage may well not have this clamp, if they still have the original engine. At least that is what I have retained from this rather detailed thread!
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Thank you for, in fact, triggering it!
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That guide tube was replaced (starting with engine #2991) by p/n 621 018 08 16 which was not clamped and remained in the M129 engines and the M130.983 engines until engine #005053.
My 280SL original engine #002901 (vin ...007749, Jan 1969) has no clamp as indicated in Alfred’s post.
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Here´s a couple of photos I found.
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That is very valuable, thank you!
I do not recall this bracket that is bent down and the clamp bracket being attached to it... Need to check that... If I saw it on my engine I would immediately think it is for the clamp. Maybe I just missed it.
Many of you would laugh at me for this "eureka", but I see just one bracket holding both oil pipe to cooler and the guide. That would explain a lot of "mess" related to descriptions in EPC and parts books...
So the brackets arrangement on the pictures from Alfred (the being restored engine) are from "not clamp supported version" of the engine.
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The clamp A1879950037 - I did the Search on EPC and it is the same clamp that is used to fasten the main harness to body frame!!
I have a couple of those, just need to refresh them.
It is available from Classic Center. If I remember correctly it costs ca $40 (!) - for a simple clamp.... :(
Similar are sold in SLS.
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Eureka, I believe we are coming to an end here! :)
Thanks to Matti's second photo it is clear now how the dipstick tube is fixed in place.
It starts with the bracket that is screwed onto the engine block behind the black holder for the steering pump fluid reservoir.
The bracket part number is: 130 010 00 40 and it is on all M130.983 engines starting with engine (manual transmission) # 005053 or engine #008202 (automatic transmission).
It is shown as # 80 in my first attached picture below.
SLS sells as item # 218288 at 26,18€ and it looks like this:
(https://www.sls-hh-shop.de/main/images/medium/218288_01.png)
There are two pipes attached to this bracket, the oil cooler line and the dipstick tube and both with clamp # 187 925 00 37. It is shown as # 81 in the picture. SLS sells it as item # 254069 at 3,45€ and it looks like this:
(https://www.sls-hh-shop.de/main/images/medium/254069.png)
Sine the dipstick tube diameter is smaller it needs a rubber hose p/n 621 997 04 82 to fill the gap. It is shown as #85 in my picture.
SLS shows it as item # 207098 but NLA and it looks like this:
(https://www.sls-hh-shop.de/main/images/medium/207098.png)
The two clamps around the pipes use the same screw and lock washer. The part numbers and the part drawing in my picture are from the s.p.l. #10180 for the M180 engine.
Anyone out there who can see a fly in the ointment? :D
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On my car the clamps are not same. Both are "tight" to the tubes, there is not room for any rubber. The screws are not same either but that could have been changed by previous owner? The screw that holds oil dip stick tube is slotted type.
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What is the engine number? Automatic or stickshift?
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130983-12-008439, automatic
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Alfred, it was a long journey, but you made us arrive where we were heading, hopefully! :D
Thanks everyone for contributions!
I am happy to see I ordered the correct bracket (A130 010 00 40). 8)
The price of the bracket in Mercedes is ca $55 net (no VAT).
On the clamp - I have to insist a bit that the number is A1879950037, sorry, as per the list you provided and it is the same in the EPC. It is NLA. I think it is important to stress that it is the same clamp that is used for the main harness fixing to body frame. A lot of us may have it on the shelf or in the box. In the Classic Center you can get a similar clamp (A1369950037, about 17mm), but it costs ca $40. SLS one has a bit different shape - I went through the exercise on fitting my harness. Picture attached.
There is also a bigger clamp available at Mercedes (A1369950137), black in colour.
The slotted screw clamp to bracket (N000912006002) is NLA, Mercedes will automatically replace it with torx screw. Do not go this way.
The clamp/dipstick guide hose (A6219970482) is ca $3 net at Mercedes.
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...
On the clamp - I have to insist a bit that the number is A1879950037, sorry, ...
Thanks for catching my mistake, Pawel! It is corrected now.
I need to be more careful with copy and paste.
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Thank you for your kind and valuable help!
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Just to, probably, close the topic: bracket and "hose" you get for part numbers Alfred mentioned above. Seems the ones we were looking for.
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Perhaps just one more message, as I am fitting the parts on engine now. As I wrote I found out that the original clamp Mercedes has in the EPC or part booklets is NLA. We made some suggestions above as for clamps. You may find that the SLS clamp mentioned above or the clamp I showed from Mercedes (similar to SLS) in combination the hoses from both of those suppliers are too tight or too lose to fit on oil line and/or dipstick tube, particularly when you fit it on the car with already certain routing of oil line to cooler, oil line from FIP and the dipstick guide (this is what I experienced).
So this may be a bit of try and correct exercise. I even tried to cut another Mercedes clamp (on the picture) for a better fit This did not work finally, I installed the SLS clamp (on the picture as well). I also tried various hose thicknesses. Finally it looks like it fits, I just need to ask for advise how to seal one of the screws holding the power steering reservoir bracket - in a separate thread perhaps.
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Maybe one more... I used drills to demonstrate pipes, 10 mm for the oil dip stick tube and 12 mm for the cooler line. No room for hoses in my case. I´m not sure if these are original clamps for this purpose though no reason to doubt either. The clamp for cooler line is not zinc plated. The allen screw is "Kamax".
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Thank you, this is great visualization :). The thinner drill being the dip stick tube. Yes, we are not sure about the original diameter of the original clamp that is NLA, we just have its equivalent, which is about 15mm, but it may not be exactly correct. All I know that the original clamp for dipstick tube is same as one used to fit main harness to the cross member.
Please note that the hose from MB has very very thin walls, less than 1mm I suppose, much thinner than the SLS one.
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Okay, a hose with 1 mm thick wall might work. I might try a "shrinking tube" in my case when the time comes to put pieces together.
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Yes, you cannot see it on the picture I made above, but the walls are very thin. This part is not cut alongside, you just slide it on the guide from the top.
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Maybe one more... I used drills to demonstrate pipes, 10 mm for the oil dip stick tube and 12 mm for the cooler line. No room for hoses in my case. I´m not sure if these are original clamps for this purpose though no reason to doubt either. The clamp for cooler line is not zinc plated. The allen screw is "Kamax".
It looks to me that you have perhaps the earlier 12mm clamp for the oil pipe.
If you go back to my reply #28 and take a look at the copy frpm the spare parts list you'll see that p/n 3049951520 was replaced by p/n 187995 0037 from engine # 002830 (automatic transmission). From then on both clamps were the same.
Now go to the SLS web site and search for the 304xxx number and you'll get this back:
https://www.sls-hh-shop.de/main/de/mercedes-230-280sl-w113/25-26-kupplung-4-gg-getriebe/25-a-kupplung-mechanisch-/halteschelle-klein-zum-beispiel-hydraulikrohr-p-4353
Looks to me that is the smaller clamp you have for the dipstick tube.
When you use the 187xxxx part you need the rubber hose to fill the gap.
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I think this is spot on!
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Pawel and Arthur:
I just checked my 280SL that has an original engine and was manufactured at the end of production in Feb 1971.
It has a straight dip stick right into the oil pan. There is not any bracket holding the pipe at all.
It is a Euro car with a manual transmission.
Fly air has a 280SL manufactured right after mine, closer to end of production. It is a USA car but I do not remember if it has an Automatic
or Manual transmission. I was in his car in 2013 in Germany.
Also my 67 250SL which is wrapped up and is under 2 feet of snow, and is a USA car , I cannot check it for brackets. It is an Automatic.
Tom
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Thank you for your input!
I will look at Stan's car when I meet him. We have another colleague here with fairly original 1971 automatic american SL - will take a look too.
Look, I think it is just completing a picture that these things changed over time - you would have to go through all the manufacturing specs changes (I have only German of 1969) to trace all the details. And this would give you some certainty only as, I am sure, there were deviations from production schedules anyway.
Another idea would be to obtain lots of statements from owners of original cars that they know for years and try to find the pattern there.
We have seen many pictures of this bracket - could be that from earlier models. So based on the current status of my knowledge and, given the logic that something should hold that pipe - I am putting one in.
Like this one: http://www.silverstarrestorations.com/113SL.htm
But again, this is the US specs only. Similar probably exists for Europe.