Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: TR on January 02, 2005, 00:13:48
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Hi folks. I'm new to the Pagoda SL Group and this is my first posting. I have what most of you might consider an odd, perhaps even a silly, question. And that question is have any of you ever tried, or even heard of, supercharging a 280SL?
I've owned my "baby", a red 71' 280SL 4-spd, for 20 years and intend to keep it forever. I have "invested" nearly $100K into it so far...a silly amount I know, however, I'm sure many of you can relate to my passion for the car.
Now I hope this thought doesn't strike everyone as heresy, but I've been toying with the idea of adding a supercharger to the car. The engine and drive train (along with practically everything else) are new and my mechanics seem to think the car can handle a supercharger and that the power and resulting performance increase would be substantial.
Comments anyone? And please accept my apology in advance if this question comes across as a sacrilege.
Thanks.
Tom in Boise
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At least it would be more in keeping with the era than turbocharging! Interesting concept, especially regarding calibration of the fuel injection.
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Hello Tom in Boise,
With the 20+ years of experience you have with this car I'm surprised you didn't answer your own question. Or, perhaps you did and were looking for some validation?
Over the years all kinds of aftermarket kits to do all kinds of "performance" enhancing have been available for all kinds of cars. "Performance" of course can mean increased speed, better handling, etc. You should take note, however, that there was a dearth of such contrivances for the 113. Why is this? I have my own ideas...
1) It isn't a sports car. Yes it is a two seater, and yes it held some appeal to those who purchased sports cars, but look at what it came with: bus-sized steering wheel, recirculating ball steering, swing axle, etc. and thus it could never compete well with sports cars such as the long gone British marques, or Porsche. SL=Super Light. It wasn't super and certainly wasn't light. It is a stunning work of mechanical automotive art; it is beautiful in its factory configurations.
2) It was appropriately configured. You generally see brake enhancements when the braking leaves something to be desired. All the early test reports comment on how good the brakes are. You see horsepower enhancements (such as the Judson Supercharger for the 190SL) when the car was configured in an underpowered fashion. You see handling enhancements when the handling leaves something to be desired. For all its faults and foibles, the 113 was a great package and the "aftermarket" didn't see fit to make too many offerings. If they did and I don't know about them, the owners at the time certainly didn't see the need for them. It would be curious to go back and see a JC Whitney catalog from 1967-1968 and see what they had for it! It is arguably fast enough for the intended use; it handles well, and brakes well, too when everything is working as it should.
3) It was rarely raced. Racing generally brings out the performance enhancements of all kinds. This is a "grand touring" car, a "boulevardier" to get you and your trophy wife or husband to and from "the club"--not around the track in a hurry. Oh sure, some were raced, but not like Porsches, Jaguars, Triumphs and even humble MG's. I'd be curioius to see what the annals of the SCCA would yield for 1968. Oh yes, there was that notable win in the '60's, and many of us have seen Pete Lesler's "race prepared" 250SL, but these are the exception.
While I wouldn't call it heresy--you should do what you want to your own car--but would you be creating something the car isn't and wasn't intended to be? How much extra horsepower would make you happy? Would you be creating stresses and forces that would shorten your engine life, or the life of other components? Criminy, a good number of 113 owners have trouble (read all the posts!) getting a standard ignition system to work! For all the cost and trouble in trying to shoehorn a supercharger into this car--and making it work--you could buy a factory tricked out Mazdaspeed Miata (or something similar...), have that kind of fun, and when your done at the end of the day, hop into your beautiful 280SL, take your lovely wife out to dinner and utter those oft repeated words to the valet that I do when I take the car and wife to a fancy restaurant:
"4 position is DRIVE and it doesn't go far--OK?"
(NB it usually stays right in front next to the Ferrari's :D )
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
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Michael and Aussie -- Thank you both for your kind replies.
Michael, you are correct that I am looking for validation on the idea of supercharging the 280SL. And as Aussie points out it would seem a better thing to do than attempting to turbocharge the car.
I also have a 2004 CLK500 cabriolet, which is a terrific machine. I guess I just enjoy the feel of stepping on the accelerator of the CLK500; otherwise I enjoy driving the 280SL as much, or more than that rather speedy and well-handling CLK500.
My mechanics have recently made a number of modifications in order to get the 71 280SL, with Fridiking air conditioning, to hold temperature while idling for a long period of time (half hour) on a very hot day (100+ degrees F) while the A/C continually blows ice cubes. As you probably know, this is no small accomplishment; and during the process a little bit of extra space has been opened up under the hood. The mechanics now seem to believe they can fit a supercharger in, that the engine and drive train could handle the extra power & stress, and that we would gain oddles of horsepower and torque, and therefore acceleration. I've not checked on this, but an additional 60 HP was mentioned as a result of adding a supercharger. I'm not sure if this is a realistic estimate, and would appreciate any comments.
I'm not overly concerned about keeping her fully original. And I don't intend to race or drive particuarly hard ... But it would be lovely to feel some real acceleration when I stick my foot into it.
Thanks in advance for any thoughts / comments / observations.
Tom in Boise
P.S. My wife and I plan to begin taking long trips in the 280SL (after all, it is indeed a "grand touring" car). And to increase comfort I'll also be adding seat heaters as well as active seat ventilation (like the CLK500).
P.P.S. I'm also removing the spare tire. As you probably know, new SLs do not come with a spare, but rather a can of flat-fixer and a little battery-power compressor. Without a spare tire the trunk of the 280SL should carry a fair amount of wine back from our trips to Napa Valley! Oh, one other item; I drove a brand new SL65 the other day...the new V12 SL from AMG pumps out over 600HP and 700 ft. lbs. of torque. I still think the 280SL is more of a "head-turner" though. I just want to feel it when I shove 280SL's accelerator down.
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Hello Tom. It sounds like you have competent people working on your car. Depending on the cost and what they are actually suggesting to do (what kind of supercharger, what sort of modification would be required, how to get the injection matched up as noted, etc) I would go for it. After my engine was rebuilt, the car is very much peppier, but having owned fast Italian sportscars, I would not mind more 'oomph' in my Pagoda myself. We would for sure all be interested to learn along with you!
Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
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Cees -- Thank you so very much for your comments. I'm glad you've confirmed that I'm not the only one who loves the W113 but would enjoy, as you so accurately say, "more oomph"!
Yes, I think the mechanics are indeed competent. And we're only in the preliminary consideration / thinking stage right now when it comes to adding a supercharger. They did mention Paxton or Judson blowers as possibilities, but these were just initial ideas that had come to mind. We'll need to research this more ... and any helpful input, positive or negative, from anyone would be very, very welcome.
Cees, you bring up an interesting point about injection match up. Any specifics here? Do you mean mechanical / physical match up; or air-to-fuel ratio type of match up; or something else; or all of this?
Here's something you might find interesting / amusing. In order to get a little more space under the hood we relocated the battery to the trunk, which as mentioned below, no longer has a spare tire! That new, extra space, where the battery used to sit is surprisingly large...and this may prove useful in terms of providing some room for supercharger hook-up. BTW, the spare tire we took out was a Contenintal radial TT 714 185HR14 narrow white wall (~3/4" stripe) that had originally come with the car. I stuck that away for safe keeping.
Regards.
Tom
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I would say that before you go ahead with the supercharger project you become drinking buddies with,or marry the first born of a MB fuel injection expert. :D
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Norton -- Thanks, and I'm sure you're right. But the good news is that I am indeed a drinking buddy of my lead mechanic!
I've been doing some web searches on the subject of supercharging older, small displacement cars. I've not found anything for W113s. But remember the Volvo 1800 (Maxwell Smart's car used on the old TV series "Get Smart", as I recall)?
Well, here's a link to where that was done: : http://www.v-performance.com/pr_super.html#performance
Here’s my little summary from this article: 1968 Volvo 1800ES with a stock B18 engine. The engine alterations reported were modified head, modified exhaust, bolt-on positive displacement twin-rotor supercharger with an intercooler added. And based on these changes notice that rear-wheel horsepower reportedly increased from 90 to 173 HP; also that 0-60 MPH time was reduced by 6 seconds (from 13.5 to 7.5 sec).
I’m unsure whether there might be unacceptable complications, in terms of reliability, every day drivability, etc., but this seems a reasonable indicator of possible increased oomph.
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The Volvo's 4-cylinder engine is reputed to be one of the most reliable engines designed (at least in those days). The M130 engine in the 280 SL's also has a very sound reputation - so I would expect that it should be able to handle more strain. Still, it is interesting that there are no examples known of someone having tried adding a supercharger before. As Michael points out, owners did add superchargers to the 190 SL's engine, so maybe you can inquire with our "sister Group", the International 190 SL Group, to get some pointers:
http://forums.190slgroup.com/
Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
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I thought agent Smart drove a Sunbeam Tiger? 8)
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I suspect one may end up using carburettors in the ned as I can see no way that the mechanical injection would compensate !
Also you may end up with more power but these cars are not terribly frugal and with a supercharger blowing all the time your gas mileage will be poor !
Perhaps a better was is to do a complete engine transplant. I believe John Haynes in the UK has a 5.0 V8 Pagoda, or the Mechatronic conversions which utilise a modern V6 and triptronic transmission may be a better option.
However various tranplants have been discussed here in detail before, not my cup of tea, but always interested to hear about though!
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
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Ben -- Thanks for the input. I'll discuss the issue/challenge of matching-up the existing mechanical injection with a supercharger. This may in fact be a major problem. And if it too big an issue then that would probably kill the project, as even I am inclined to think it would be a sacrilege to remove the injection unit and switch to carburetors.
Cees -- Great idea; I'll check with the 190SL for some pointers. Thanks!
Norton -- I believe you're right about it being a Subeam Tiger.
Guys, please keep the thoughts/ideas coming. Shaving a few seconds off the 280SL's 0-60MPH time would be a hoot!
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'' Can't get there from here , Son. ''
Fuel ratios are the biggest problem. A pump guy might be able to modify the governors but that would likly require a lot of RD time. Someone with a good understanding of air fuel ratios might be able to do it in less time. You would definately have to increase fuel output under load ( the governors do this already )
The Judson is a poor choice although it is period. I had one for my 190SL but never used it. They're quite heavy and you need the oiling system that goes with it to lubricate the rotors. Engine life was cut in half on the 190. Ignition had to be backed off a long ways - anything BTDC would melt a piston.
Still want to try it?
Daniel G Caron
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<<--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
'' Can't get there from here , Son. ''
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I agree..
Be easier to just convert the thing to EFI with a MAF between the air filter and throttle plate, electric injectors/fuel rail with an ECU controller/crank sensor and an 02 sens for closed loop feedback.
Guess you could say we are straying a bit from original here , huh???????????
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Daniel -- Yipes...that's a real horror story! But one which I greatfully receive. Thank you for the input.
You mention having had a Judson blower on your 190SL but never using it. I assume it was used at some point and that damage was incurred - yes? Clearly you have good knowledge about the subject.
Hmmm ... Now this would be anything but period correct. But how about if one removed the existing mechanical fuel injection and replaced it with a modern FI along with a supercharger?? A thoroughly modern, matched set, if you will.
At some point I may give up this wild idea. But if a '68 1.8 litre Volvo can be supercharged and then achieve a 0-60MPH time approaching that of my '04 CLK500 then I guess I remain interested in the concept (at this point at least).
All comments will be most appreciated.
Thanks much!
Tom in Boise
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A Dalton -- You were reading my mind as I was typing my reply to Daniel!
Yes indeed, I'd clearly be straying from original. But in the event something like this actually happens I'll promise to keep all of the stuff together so it could be returned to original.
Anyone care to venture a guess as to what the 0-60MPH time might be for a tight 280SL if this were done???
Tom
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Actually it was Simon Templar, played by Roger Moore, in the TV series "The Saint", that drove the Volvo 1800. Interestingly, the series producers used the Volvo after Jaguar let them know they were not interested in cooperating with the show.
Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
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This is definitely off point but, it is always fun to share useless trivia. Maxwell Smart drove a Sunbeam Tiger which definitely had "oomph". The Tiger version had a Ford 289 under the hood.
Ted '69 280SL standard w/ more "oomph" than an automatic
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Fun stuff! But I wonder; how might that small-engined supercharged Volvo 1800, with a reported 0-60 time of 7.5 secs, have done against Maxwell Smart's hopped up Ford 289 Tiger? Heh, heh...
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As stated by the good Doctor, the injection pump is going to be the big problem with trying to supercharger your SL. You will need to find a way to "boost reference" the injection pump, as boost increases the pump output will also have to increase, to keep the air/fuel mixture correct. Not sure how it works, but this is common on turbo and supercharged diesel engines, and the Mercedes turbo diesel injection pump might be the key to making this work on the SL. ;)
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Man, I guess I am just a stick in the mud -- because I am content whenever my car starts, moves, handles, and shines like the 1963 230SL was designed to ... :)
James
63 230SL
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Hello Tom,
You might want to contact Karl Middlehauve of M100(600, 6.3, 6.9) fame.
He has tinkered with the mechanical IP of the 600 engines to get a supercharger to work. He also has an extensive collection of cars, some with his modifications.
Cheers,
Walter Klatt
PS: I've also commited the sacrilege of converting a 1967 230SL to a diesel 4 cylinder with a 5 spd manual. Even worse than that is the car has only 4,723 miles since new.
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That is so far over the top that it is actualy pretty Coooool....
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Walter's right, I'd forgotten about Karl, Here's a link to his site http://www.mbgrand600.com/
Hey Walter how about some pic's of the diesel SL, you sick puppy :D
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Norton, Walter, Guys -- This is great stuff! Please keep 'er coming!!
If we actually get this done, it would be interesting to see how a supercharged 280SL stacks up against the acceleration of my '04 CLK500 (which ain't bad).
Assuming the rear-wheel horsepower increase of the little Volvo 1800ES (mentioned below) actually went up 83 HP, then what might a tight 280SL with a supercharger addition crank out? Could the 280SLs engine be pushing maybe in the range of 275-300 HP?! I'd think torque should increase pretty sharply too.
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No, I sold the super charger to a guy in California. I think his last name is Cox.
190SL's use a Judson system that draws through a small single barrel carb. The biggest problem is the way the system lines up with the intake manifold. It tends to run number 4 cylinder leaner than the rest which can cause problems over time.
190's are 8.8:1 which is quite a bit lower than a 280. Even at that compression they'll diesel like crazy on regular when shut off. They won't ping but they will run on. I've never seen an injected engine do this.
Daniel G Caron
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Walter, Norton -- As you recommended I've checked out Karl Middlehauve's website. Good stuff!
Here's an interesting page from that site: http://www.mbgrand600.com/
Notice that Mr. Middlehauve reports an increase in horsepower of 76% and an increase of 51% in torque on a 600 with a 6.3 engine where he added a supercharger. Here's those details, as measured at the rear wheels:
Std. HP: 196...Supercharged HP: 345...(increase: 149 HP, or +76%)
Std. Torque: 327...Supercharged Torque: 496...(increase: 169 Ft. Lb. of torque, or +51%)
Here's another link on his site about fuel management (re electronic fuel injection & supercharging): http://www.mbgrand600.com/
And Daniel -- Thanks very much for your response.
Tom in Boise
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Walter, Norton -- Per your input I've been in contact with Karl Middlehauve. Amazing news ... he has just made this modification on a 280SE.
At Karl's request I am posting his response to my question:
<< Hi Tom,
We just have completed a MB 280SE sedan with a 4 speed, 1969 with a computerized fuel management system and a turbo installation. The car performs well, and we will put it on an engine dyno to test how
much HP and Torque we gained. We have a printout of the standard.
One more change we will make on the 280, a 6.3 rear axle ratio conversion, the standard 280 rear axle ratio is 4.15 to 2.82 on the 6.3.
I tell you its fun to drive the 280 now. If you are serious take a flight to Phila and drive the 280 SE Turbo
The conversion is not too difficult, a firm price we do not have but a ball park is $ 8-10K
Regards
Karl H. Middelhauve >>
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It's good to find out there's more people as sick as us, aint it[:p]
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Norton -- It is indeed.
I've asked Karl what the time reduction for 0-60mph is. It will be interesting to get that info; also to learn what the HP and torque increases are after the car's been dyno'd.
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Hello Tom in boise again,
After listening to all this stuff, if "oomph" is all you are after best to consider an engine transplant. Go to this month's Car & Driver and see what them boyz down in Georgia have done (and will do for $30k) with an old Mini. Honda VTEC engine transplant. Something like that (SLK engine?) will give you all the oomph you need. If you start your own R&D project with superchargers and all the related stuff to get it to work, you are going to spend an awful lot of $$$ no matter what anyone says here, on an uncertain outcome--even if you achieve what you are looking for, how long will it last? Listen to the good Doctor. HALF the life in a 190SL with the tame Judson? Melting pistons? No thanks. Get yourself an SLK engine or something similar and do a transplant.
PS. Early Sunbeam Tigers had the Ford 260 in them I believe. Poor Man's Cobra.
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
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Hi Michael -- Thanks for the kind input. But nah, oomph ain't the only thing I'm after. Just a touch more fun is all. My CLK500 is capable of providing some fairly decent acceleration thrills. But my passions are with the 280SL, and I'd appreciate a similar feeling from her when I step down. I could be oh-so wrong about this, but I rather suspect the car is strong enough to handle a modification of the type Karl Middlehauve has described. If not, I could always have the engine rebuild and then reinstall the original mechanical injection system. I'll not rush into this, and might not do it ... but right now I'm leaning towards it.
I really appreciate all the inputs.
Tom
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Well Tom in Boise,
Another less costly thing you can try to mimic "supercharger" like performance is Nitrous Oxide Injection. There's probably a plethora of information and kits available; my suggestion is that it would be a whole lot less engineering involved.
http://www.idavette.net/hib/nitrous.htm
Take a read, do a Google search, I'm sure you can come up with stuff.
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
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Why all that dangerous experimentation and trying to milk power out of a 35 year old engine? You could easily blow it to hell. Instead, you could pull the engine and set it aside for all of it's value as an original motor and replace it with an engine and transmission from a Nissan 300Z or a Mustang. You would get new technology, ignition, fuel injection, high horsepower, big torque, and a MUCH better transmission. All with readily available, lower cost parts. Instead of adding weight to the front end, you might be reducing it with better susupension response too.
IF you do make the car into a "muscle car" don't forget to upgrade the brakes.
Ray
'68 280SL 4-spd Coupe
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Hello Ray - as far as the age of the engine is concerned; I think that so long as they are maintained properly and rebuilt when necessary, they should be and perform like brand new. The same goes for the whole car - old, yes, but not necessarily any less/weaker than when it was new. If an engine is rebuilt properly with the correct parts, tolerances etc., it will have the same performance characteristics and durability from when it first came off the assembly line. The question then, of whether the engine can accept a certain modification that adds power, is related to its design and durability, but not its age. I for one like my 280 SL to be in 'good-as-new' shape, and I like to drive it just like I tend to drive a new car. For example, I have taken it over long distances to Germany and I drive it at relatively high speeds (like 90 MPH) for prolonged periods of time.
BTW correct used M127, M120 and M130 engines are still available used from old sedan and coupe bodies, although this 'supply' will dry out over the years to come. A complete engine that is in ok or rebuildable shape should not be more than around $750, including the FI pump, ignition and other externals.
Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
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Cees has a good point, buying another engine to use for the supercharger project is a good idea, Just like the Corvette guys do, when they want to go faster. Buy a second engine, build it up for the supercharger, and keep th OG engine safe in the back of the garage. No use fraging the matching number engine. :x
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Gents,
As for the comments about a 35 year old engine, keep in mind that the age of the engine has more to do with the level of technical acheivement at the time, not the age of the engine per se. Yes, a brand new rebuilt M130 motor as Cees points out should be the same today as it was in 1969 or whenever. But that brand new M130 was designed for 170 HP give or take, and lets not forget that! When you take that "new" M130 rebuilt, and then add something like a supercharger, oversized pistons, higher compression, nitrous oxide or any such contrivances, all bets are off. That's why, as the good Dr. pointed out, the 190SL engine's life was cut in half with the Judson supercharger. However, the technology that went into the M130 engine is probably closer to 45 years old, and development on it began many years earlier--as derivatives of earlier engines. To not take that into consideration when suggesting modern, higher HP modifications or additions will most certainly get one into trouble, which is what many of us are trying to say in the kindest possible manner.
If Supercharging were a panacea, every car would have it and we'd all be driving around with little blown 4-cylinder engines; we're not. There's no free lunch. Sure you can do it, it might take you an enormous amount of custom engineering to fit it all together, but there will be a price to pay besides money--absolutely, positively. So, we are all waiting to hear the results.
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
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Guys -- Thoughtful comments all...thanks.
I too enjoy driving the 280SL as I would a new car.
My lead mechanic has experience with the M130, and is scheduled for training on the new SLR McLaren, so I'm relatively comfortable that he gets it relative to the possibilities, the risks, and the technology requirements of such an upgrade. However, I'd not heard of anyone actually having done this sort of thing until Walter and Norton were kind enough to put me in contact with Karl Middlehauve. And now that Karl has just done a M130 perhaps we'll all know more before too long. I sure look forward to those measured results from the performance testing that Karl has planned on his recently converted '69 280SE 4-spd.
My 280SL has a new engine in it now, with approx. 2,000 miles on it. But we have kept the original; just like I have the original spare tire that came with the car. As mentioned previously, we've gone to an awful lot of effort to get this '71 280SL 4-spd, with a Frigiking A/C (that blows amazingly cold air), to run cool during prolonged periods of idling on hot (100+F) days. The guide line / scenario I gave my mechanics was this: "Picture yourself and your wife caught in stalled traffic in Phoenix during mid-afternoon in August...it's 110 degrees F, you have the top off and the sun is beating down...you have the old Frigiking running full blast...You've not progressed more than a mile in the past half hour ... And then your wife turns to you and says, 'with this wonderful Frigiking air conditioning system and these active ventilated seats I'm just so comfortable and glad to be here, and now I love this old Mercedes just as much as you do!' ... And then you look down at the 280SL's temperature gauge and reconfirm that the old gal (the car, not your wife) is holding temperature just like that new CLK500 is capable of doing in such conditions."
Hey, no problem for an air-conditioned '71 280SL, right?! Well, I'm pleased to report that with many not terribly obvious modifications (to most people anyway) we are now there in terms of a M130 engine being able to "hold temperature" in such conditions.
Well, as mentioned, we won't move on this new project too quickly. And perhaps not at all. But it does seem that Karl has done some of us a great service in terms of his pioneering work when it comes to supercharging / turbocharging vintage Mercedes 6.3s and now a 280SE. And if we do actually do this on the 280SL, but then things go terribly wrong (i.e., destroys the new engine), we will have our backup plan in place, including the old mechanical injection system that came with the car.
In the meantime I continue to dream/fantasize about the possibility of a 34 year old 280SL powered by a M130 that might reliably deliver acceleration performance close to that of a less than 1 year old CLK500.
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I thought long and hard about forced induction(turbocharging in my case) my 280SL. I think that if you connected the altitude compensator of the injection pump with the air inlet upstream of the throttle body so that the fuel injection "sees" the increased air density you probably could achieve the proper enrichment but had I done this modification I would have opted to install a Bosch CIS injection system from a later 6 cyl Benz(if it is KE injection you would have to find a K basic setup from a 6 cyl Volvo or Delorean. If you coupled that system with a warm up regulator from a turbo Volvo 240 (circa 1981) which has a vacuum/boost enrichment feature you would be all set. Of course you would have to add an oxygen sensor and throttle switch for wide open throttle but those would be small items comparatively.
As I said I thought long and hard and finally decided if I wanted a faster car that badly I would sell the 280 and buy a faster car.
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Thanks Shvegel. Boy, do I understand about the "long & hard thinking" part. It's interesting that you decided to not turbocharge your 280SL after a good deal of consideration. I'll add your input into the decision stew, I'll also pass it along to my mechanic. Thanks very much for your obviously well thought out comments.
Did you happen to check out those links that Norton and I posted to Karl Middlehauve's website where he has done supercharging (on 6.3s) and turbocharging (very recent on a '69 280SE)?
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Gents -- Thought you might be intersted in the latest brain-storm of my lead mechanic. It occurred to him that perhaps people had supercharged / turbo-charged Datsun 240, 260, 280Z cars ... And we all know the genesis of those engines! I haven't done the web searches about this, but he reports having learned quite a lot from the Datson Z-car crowd.
I thought his point was an interesting one. He said it occurred to him that people probably wouldn't have a lot of reluctance when it comes to playing around with the old Datsun Z cars (which as I understand had engines whose roots where in the MB 6, e.g., M130); but because of the comparative rarity, value, etc. of W113s people would be (natuarally) much, much more reluctant to do such a thing.
The mind-experimentation continues...
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The Z's had carbs on them until the late 70's then electronic fuel injection, and I think the electronic injection is the key to make it work, unless some one realy understands how the turbo diesel's boost reference the mechanical pumps. 8)
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Funny I actually read at the weekend that the current R34 Skylines engine block is remarkably similar to the MB in-line six, I knew the "Z" was related but it seems they still use the same basic design
The Skylines in Europe are tuneable to 1000BHP............dunno what the motor looks like sizewise but you never know !!
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
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TR,
http://zhome.com/
Here is a good source for all that is "Z Car". Read all the stuff and you'll find all kinds of reasons not to do things, and you'll find out things like how the harmonics of the 240Z engine snaps crankshafts in two at certain RPM's, how stock pistons crack like glass, and forged ones use oil like there's no tomorrow, etc. You can be sure the M130 has issues as well--but you have not discovered them yet.
Also note that the king of Z cars was/is Bob Sharp of Bob Sharp Motors in Wilton Connecticut...if it can be done, they did it. He raced Z cars for a long time in the 1970's and 1980's (with driver PAUL NEWMAN). So, add that to your research department.
http://www.bobsharpnissan.com/
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
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Guys -- Fun to think about, but plenty of consideration / studying will be done before, and if, changes are actually made.
My mechanic, who knows MB well from the M130 up through an '05 SL65 (and as mentioned he'll soon be going to training on the new SLR McLaren), will approach any such undertaking most gingerly. That is in both his nature and mine.
It sounds to me like one would have to consider the whole package as opposed to attempting to piecemeal any aspect of it ... perhaps meaning a complete system of new EFI, advanced ignition control, as well the supercharger and associated air system, etc., etc. We've been toying with this crazy notion for over a year now. Who knows what the outcome might be ... but can you image the torque delivery (not to mention HP) from such an M130 engine, even tuned down for everyday driving?!
Tom
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I would go low pressure turbo (10-15 PSI) with a large intercooler. Overall it would be smaller, easier to weld in & takes up so much less space. Turbos that are maintained and run right will not shorten engine life, my last turbo car had 325K miles on it when I sold it and was still going strong. Another plug for synthetic oil.
The injector pump has air sensors that should compensate for pressure as well as vaccum.
The hardest thing would be to have the right trim on the turbo, but there are lots of folks to help you there both on and off line. I can see this as a less than $1K project that takes you about 200 hours to get right.
Sounds like a fun project.
Regards, NRK
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NRK -- I've recently driven a friend's new SL65. As you probably know that is the 600SL from AMG, which delivers 600+HP and 700+ ft lb of torque. And I can testify this was an experience I'll not soon forget. Obviously my '71 280SL is not even in the same realm in terms of performance, however, it may have just as much personality as that new SL65.
It's too bad AMG, or Kleeman, weren't around in the days of the W113 because I suspect they would have done something like you've outlined. My lead mechanic will continue along with his "thought experiments" in regards to supercharging / turbo-charging, fuel delivery system, etc. Today he removed the stock exhaust system and had a newly engineered replacement installed...went from the standard two small exhaust pipes, muffler & resonator arrangement to a single 3 inch pipe, single muffler, and twin 2-inch exhaust tips. From an outward appearance not very noticeable, but we are anticipating a reasonable power improvement especially when she's pulling above 3,500 RPM. It will be a while yet before everything else is back together...but I can't wait to test the combined effect of the new K&H air delivery package, elimination of the old clutch fan, and now this new exhaust system (which in itself appears to be a piece of artwork).
The standard exhaust system was gently removed and will be stored away for safe keeping. We still have a several weeks of mechanical work ahead of us, then its back to the interior shop for a spruce-up.
When the new Metric engine went in, about 2K miles ago, we did not have the mechanical injection pump rebuilt ... just reinstalled it and it seems to work fine. That injection pump has ~120,000 miles and 34 years on it. I wonder how long it will be before a rebuild is needed. I've never had the pleasure of paying for that experience, but my understanding is it ain't necessarily a pleasant event. I wonder if that might be an opportune time to pull the original mechanical injection system off, store it safely away for posterity also, and then do the whole package in terms of a new fuel delivery / management & super/turbo charging in a nice and tidy fashion. Hmmm... 'Tis a thought...
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My thoughts (If the bank manager was up for it!)
The basic engine design is "strong"
I would
lower the compression
Change to electronic fuel injection
Use a turbo with a charge cooler rather than an inter cooler
Add an electric oil pump to circulate the oil after the engine is cut off.
add an oil-cooler
then I would have to look at the suspension and brake department to ensure they were up to a power increase
malc
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Malc -- Thanks for the idea input. The mechanics have just gone through the entire suspension system. The collective opinions are that the bottom-side of the car is up to it.
Interesting thought about lowering the compression. Your idea will definitely be going into the consideration stew.
The weird thing about all of this is that I don't, and won't, drive the car particularly hard ... well, not often anyway. I'd like it to continuing being a civilized touring or boulevard machine that can, on occassion, force one back into the seat.
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You need to drop the compression otherwise the car will not run on modern fuels, unless you can get Avgas or run on some of the fuels available for racing (road legal in the UK but at £7 a litre it's abit steep)
You might want to go for distributorless ignition with a "3D" ECU and a knock sensor.
Just to throw another spanner in the works....
Why not buy a written off modern MB with either a turbocharged or compressor engine, stuff the engine in your car and keep the original engine??? that way your costs are reduced by "recycling" lots of the parts from the wrecked car, your still using available MB parts and less of a headache money-wise dealing with one off systems.
You could also use the gearbox if you wanted. Machining of adapter plates, make up a propshaft etc, would still be cheaper than the other route in MHO
I am doing this with a '74 BMW 3.0Csi where I am fitting stuff from a later M535......... I bought the whole car for less than it would cost to overhaul the Csi brakes with reconditioned parts!!!!
Ahh Fun :)
Malc
Malc
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Malc -- Yes, fun is one of the keys.
I guess I'd rather enjoy doing such a project using the M130 engine. Years ago I saw a W113 that had the engine, transmission, etc. replaced with new BMW bits. Somehow it just didn't seem right to me, although I'll wager it worked just hunky-dory.
The good news is that I already have a spare engine. Anything original that has come off my car (which at this point is not very much) I've stored away for posterity. The idea here is that return to fully original configuration would not be particularly difficult if that desire ever strikes.
But what you suggest sure makes sense. In fact that's more or less what some of those ex-AMG guys at Mechatronik are doing, meaning putting a 320 engine in W113s (or as they called it, "MSL"): http://www.mechatronik-gmbh.de/english/e_msl.html
If you haven't already looked at their video clips of that blue W113 / MSL I'd recommend it. Clearly not for the purist, but definitely in the "fun" category.
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Tom,
Wow you have a spare engine!
Well out with the porting kit, get those inlet and exhaust ports balanced, in terms of flow, "blue print" the engine...triple cut those valve seats......
You can get throttle bodies from the likes of K&N and Lumitron (spelling) to put on say L jetronic fuel injection.
Thinking about it if you went this route you could get a good power increase without going down the turbo/supercharger road.
Time to play :)
malc
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More crazy stuff
how about 3 twin choke Webers :D
Malc
probably start off with 40 or 45 chokes :twisted:
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Does anyone out there have an idea of what a "typical" time is for needing an injection pump rebuild? I know this is an imprecise question and that there's no accurate answer. I'm just looking for a rough idea, if anyone cares to offer one. As mentioned below, my '71 280SL's injection pump has about 120K miles on it with no known rebuild.
I suspect I'm living on borrowed time when it comes to that 34-year old injection pump.