Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Drive train, fuel, suspension, steering & brakes => Topic started by: Tomnistuff on June 02, 2017, 22:53:32
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Hi All,
I've read somewhere that there were issues with the absence of baffles in the Dansk 82 liter 250SL and 280SL reproduction fuel tanks. Does anyone have any experience with the Dansk 65 liter 230SL reproduction fuel tank? Does anyone know how it's built inside?
I also saw somewhere that someone had a problem with the filler neck being about 2 or 3 inches too short to the extent that the large body grommet and fuel filler cap wouldn't even fit.
Any recent experience with the Dansk tanks?
Tom Kizer
Levis, Quebec, Canada
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I seem to remember that it was the 82 liter tank that had that problem then I remembered that I shouldn't count on my memory for things like this.
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New Dansk tank installed 2 months ago, no problems. Works fine for now.
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Thanks, Dan and Alex. I'll go ahead and order one from CarPartsDiscount.com. At least they deliver to Canada and take PayPal. Alex, I assume, because you have a 250SL, that you bought an 82 liter tank. But if the 82 liter tank is ok now, the 65 liter tank is probably ok too.
Tom Kizer
Levis, Quebec, Canada
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... a little off topic, so please forgive me.
In thinking about replacement fuel tanks it occurred to me that you might want to get the SMALLER tank if possible for the simple reason that you will be cycling through the fuel more frequently so you will have less OLD FUEL in the tank at any given time. This is only a consideration for the collector/Sunday car people. If you drive the car often and/or for long trips, then you should get the bigger tank.
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I decided to get the 65 liter tank for the simple reason that the 82 liter tank appears to have been released for sale first and also appears to have had some problems. I figure the 65 liter tank is less likely to have problems since it was released for sale later.
My car also came with a 65 liter tank and I don't want to move the fuel pump, as some have mentioned was necessary when upsizing.
By the way, the 65 liter tank is a little more expensive. I wonder why.
Anyway, when putting it away for the winter, I fill it up and add something to keep the fuel from going sour.
Tom Kizer
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Well, after 10 days, I know the answer. The 65 L tank filler neck is way too short too.
After all I spent for shipping, taxes and customs brokerage fees, I'm going to fix it myself (I hope).
I'm going to cut the filler neck and add in a rubber fuel filler neck 45 degree elbow to put the cap in the right place. I've added photos of the new tank stacked on the original tank so you all can see what the problem is. the first is rear view and the second it a right side view.
I'll post my solution photos once I've fitted the tank in a couple of weeks.
Tom Kizer
Levis, Quebec, Canada
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How could they get that so wrong? Especially when they apparently got the 82L tank right. Maybe they've tried to use the same filler neck on both tanks?
Before cutting I think you should consider requesting a refund and buying an MB tank.
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Dave, read my post again. I've already spent too much because I live in Canada. Shipping it back to get a refund will cost me again. Taxes and duties and brokerage fees are not refundable as far as I know and shipping is another $100 US +.
I've read somewhere that the MB tanks can problematical also. My experience with MB parts in general is that a few years ago, they started making junk for the old car parts. I know because I've bought some.
If you want something done right, you most often have to do it yourself, so I'll fix the tank and know it's right when I'm done. My original tank was not salvageable.
I searched some 82 L tanks and found the statement that the internal baffles are missing from the tank. It's sold by Parts Geek. They at least warned about the missing baffles.
I just wish these sellers and manufacturers could get the design right or at least be truthful. It's not horseshoes, where close is good enough.
Tom Kizer
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Hello Tom,
For me it looks that the neck has got a hit. Before you start any cutting try to bend the neck back to its place. By the picture length of the neck looks right.
BR,
Matti
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Tom
I agree with Matti. It looks like it got hit.
Urban
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At some point, the corner of the seam took a hit because you can see that about 1/2 inch of the corner is curled up. I examined microscopically the entire area, including the neck and the fill cap bayonet fitting. There are no marks anywhere except the corner of the seam. The paint shows no damage, even microscopic damage. I'll look again at the tank, the filler neck, the box and bubble wrap with an eye to looking for some "soft damage" that might have come through the box and bubble wrap. In my opinion, the upper neck is shorter than the lower neck in the photo and, at best, the problem would be less but still there.
I'll keep working on it. If you are right, at least fixing that much of the problem will make it easier to fix the entire problem.
I'll post any improvements that I can make.
Tom Kizer
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OK, you were right. I didn't ask myself the right questions. There is no damage to the paint of the neck, but it apparently took a soft hit through the bubble wrap and box. The two photos show (but not very well) a "kink" in a sort of rib stamped into the upper surface near the neck where a "kink" would be if one shoved the neck top in the direction that would cause the problem.
The tip of the arrows identify where there is a depression in the upper part of the tank.\
I'll have to try to reposition the neck where it is supposed to be by either moving the neck (and risk damaging the neck weld joint) or welding a "dent pull rod" to the tank where the depression is, like a body man would do. In fact, I think I'll take to my body restorer, along with the original tank to use as an "objective" position.
Thank you all for your observations. Your help has been extremely valuable. I'm now convinced that you've given me the solution with much less work than my original method would have required.
Tom Kizer
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Tom
I am also evaluating to either have my existing tank cleaned and sealed or simply buy a new one. I was about to buy the same tank from Dansk until I red your post. I would be very interested to hear the outcome of your situation. Were the problems due to bending of the neck during shipping or is there an actual fitting problem?
Alex, I assume you fitted a Dansk 82 liter tank?
I would also like to re-ask Toms initial question: Did anybody else install the Dansk 65 liter tank yet?
Thank you much
Dirk
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Whether I fix it myself or not, I'll get it fixed rather than to expend 2/3 its value replacing it. I'll also make sure that CarPartsDiscount.com knows that they screwed up in the packaging. Hopefully I can save someone else the same problems.
I'll also explore the internals if I can, to determine whether the baffles (flower pot or equivalent) is installed.
I'll be back here with results in a few days or a week or two when it's fitted to the car.
Thanks again.
Tom Kizer
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My tank in my 1966 230SL had a lot of rust in it. No holes or leaks but plenty of rust. I had it "professionally" cleaned and sealed a couple of times and the rust kept coming back. In addition to the rust, the car just did not run right. Sometimes low on power, sometimes stalling.
I had a MBCA voucher from buying a new Mercedes that was almost to expire so I got the Mercedes tank. I took the old tank out and tried to put the new one in. It just would not fit! After about 45 minutes, a neighbor walked by and asked if he could help. I guess he had a much better eye than I do because he immediately pointed out that the angle of the filler tube was different on the new tank when compared with the old one. It only took a few seconds to bend it to match the old tank and it was installed in just a few minutes after that. Even though it seemed to have been packed to prevent this from happening, it evidently was not good enough. I wish the neighbor had walked past sooner!
After installing the new tank, the car's engine seemed like it had been replaced as well. Power was back and no stalling. That was a couple years ago and it still runs great. I wish I had done it sooner but was always reluctant to pay the super high price.
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Well, Matti, you were right. I decided that before I took it to my body guy, I should have the opportunity to destroy it myself. I can forgive myself but it would take years for me to forgive him if he destroyed it.
I tried to move the neck by hand buy couldn't quite make it move, so I took a breaker bar, wrapped the handle end with tape, shoved it as far as it would go in the curved neck and started prying in the direction required to put the filler where it belongs.
Ten minutes later, I took some photos. The photos show the results. I haven't tried to fit it yet but I did measure the fill cap location relative to the corners and the seam. They are all the same as the original tank. The photos look right now as well (at least to me). By the way, when I first started with the breaker bar, at one point it "popped" and a large part of the problem was fixed. A small additional adjustment was all it took to get it where I wanted it.
The only thing left to do is install it, maybe remove it and tweak it with the breaker bar and put it back.
I want to thank everyone of you for your interest and expertise. I'm much wiser now and extremely happy.
Tom Kizer
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Well spotted and a nice fix!
The vulnerability of the filler neck in transport definitely sounds like something to be aware of.
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Looks good. Well done and thanks for posting.
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Well, Matti, you were right. I decided that before I took it to my body guy, I should have the opportunity to destroy it myself. I can forgive myself but it would take years for me to forgive him if he destroyed it.
I tried to move the neck by hand buy couldn't quite make it move, so I took a breaker bar, wrapped the handle end with tape, shoved it as far as it would go in the curved neck and started prying in the direction required to put the filler where it belongs.
Ten minutes later, I took some photos. The photos show the results. I haven't tried to fit it yet but I did measure the fill cap location relative to the corners and the seam. They are all the same as the original tank. The photos look right now as well (at least to me). By the way, when I first started with the breaker bar, at one point it "popped" and a large part of the problem was fixed. A small additional adjustment was all it took to get it where I wanted it.
The only thing left to do is install it, maybe remove it and tweak it with the breaker bar and put it back.
I want to thank everyone of you for your interest and expertise. I'm much wiser now and extremely happy.
Tom Kizer
I too bought a Dansk 82L tank in the UK.
The packing was rather poor and it was damaged in transit.
The supplier kindly replaced it.
Fits fine. The filler neck has to be slightly adjusted with a hammer handle.
The flower pot arrangement looks very different. It seems to be syphoning fuel from the centre of the fuel filter (see pic)
naj
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If anyone buys a new MB tank could you try and post a picture of the flower pot in that one? I have a funny feeling that 2 different companies wouldn't invest in some very expensive stamping molds to stamp out the same part. If my theory holds true the Dansk and MB might be the same tank.
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If anyone buys a new MB tank could you try and post a picture of the flower pot in that one? I have a funny feeling that 2 different companies wouldn't invest in some very expensive stamping molds to stamp out the same part. If my theory holds true the Dansk and MB might be the same tank.
Definitely different!
MB pot pictures from Blacklick below.
naj
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In my last post, I suggested that I had solved my Dansk tank filler neck problem by bending it into the correct orientation.
That's not strictly true. I recently installed it and although it fits very well and the neck passes through the hole in "almost" the perfect place (correctable by bending 1/4" one more time), it is still about one or one and a half inches too short.
I've ordered a 2.25" Inside Diameter Gates Universal filler neck hose with a 45 degree bend in the middle to "extend along the same arc as the current filler neck" from Rock Auto. I'll cut the short filler neck in the middle, "break" the sharp edges and add a cut-to-fit piece of the extension in the middle of the neck. I should be able to "FIT" the neck assembly to make it perfect. It will take another week or so to get the hose and fit the tank again. I'll be back with a progress report with photos, instructions and hose part numbers in a few days, once I get it all put together.
Tom Kizer
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Hi,
I had the Dansk 65 liter installed in my 1966 230 SL last week.
No complaints or issues from the guy that did it.
After some of the above posts I had asked him previously to compare the tanks (original one I decided to replace as the car had been "parked" for 8 years and not confident I could get someone here to refurbish)...and he had told me the exterior was the same.
Regards
Pedro
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The MB tank pictured is an old one. I am interested in what is being supplied today.
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In my last post, reply #22 above, I described the remaining problem with my 65 L Dansk tank fill neck being too short.
Well, it's fixed now and I'm happy with the results. When I first installed it, it was too short to even fit the grommet in the body hole. The following photos show the progression of the repairs and final fit.
The first two photos in this post show the head-on view and side view of the filler neck fit in the body hole. Too short!
The next two photos in this post show where the filler neck was cut in order to extend it.
The last four photos in the next post show the final fit of the tank position and the final fit of the cap, filler neck end and grommet relative to the tank neck.
Tom Kizer
Levis, Quebec, Canada
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Here is the final set of photos.
the gap between the filler neck inlet and the tank filler neck is between the second and third hose clamps, with the upper clamp on the tank part of the neck (the third from the fill cap) being at the very beginning of the tank neck in order to reduce the tendency of fuel to enter the gap between the hose and neck.
The reason for four clamps is because there is nothing to keep the hose assembly from twisting on the tank neck as the cap is turned other than the friction of the hose due to the tightness and number of clamps.
Tom Kizer
Levis, Quebec, Canada
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Hi Folks,
Does anyone know if the later Dansk tank for the 250/280SL can be used in the 230SL? I also heard some chatter that said the later version didn't have the "flower pot" so there was some concern that it might starve the pump while cornering?
Apparently the earlier 230SL tank is out of stock everywhere.
Fuel Tank JP Group Dansk 1134700701 is the number shown for the later type.
Any input welcome.
Thanks again,
Allen
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Hi Folks,
Does anyone know if the later Dansk tank for the 250/280SL can be used in the 230SL?
Yes Allen...,
This should be possible...
As long as your car was built after serial 007204, i.e. with the flat spare tire.
If you still have a spare wheel well, the 82 liter tank won't fit.
You need to adapt the bracket for the fuel (delivery) pump perhaps but certainly the pump cover (the round one) needs to be replaced towards the late style.
Achim
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Your picture:
10 Cap and Grommet Driver Side.JPG
Tom,
That's too far out. It might look (or be) comfortable but that is by no means correct (i.e. original) anymore.
If I were you (I am not ... I know ... ) I would have first compared the both necks (old and new) exactly with each other.
Is the new one really shorter? ???
Your pic "After Rework Side.jpg " doesn't suggest so.
Have you measured the outer diameter (length) of the neck from both tanks?
I would have first fitted the old tank back. Was the neck length fine there?
Then you have at least a measure how that looked initially.
2nd.
If the new neck is shorter - okay. Something needs to be done then.
If not, try to bend the neck rearwards first a bit - just compare with the original tank.
Well, now it is too late, you cut it already.
If it were my tank I would have welded a metal piece (ring) into the gap.
The rubber hose solution doesn't really appeal me. How does that work during filling the tank?
And most important, is the rubber hose really fuel resistant?? :o ???
Otherwise it will "glue" away by time and provide you gas smells everywhere. :-X
Okay, if you do not want to change anything anymore, I would at least shorten the gap between the both metal ends of your cut neck now. The gap is currently too wide.
Please see the attached pic. This is what is correct on an untouched & unmolested 230 SL (not mine). ;)
Best,
Achim
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Thanks Achim,
So the tank is a bit wider then and gets close to the fuel pump can? Mine is modified a bit already as I used a modern Bosch pump instead of the original. Do you think there is any validity to the flower pot issue? It would seem odd that they would make a replacement tank that would allow fuel to starve in cornering
Thanks again,
Allen
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Hello Allen !
...Do you think there is any validity to the flower pot issue? It would seem odd that they would make a replacement tank that would allow fuel to starve in cornering...
Honestly, I don't know. ??? ::) I have not used the replacement tank yet and currently I am also not intending to. My old tank was able to be refurbished and I hope it holds for a while ... otherwise I am going to remove the rust & debris again (don't hope I need to ... so soon).
Fresh fuel (gas) and a gas tank full all the time are the best protections against new rust, I assume... ;)
From the pics Tom provided it really looks as if the flower pot (issue) is different in the replacement tank than in the original tank. But I do not know about the function...,
whether there is still a small drain hole (channel) for low level fuel as is with the original flower pot or not.
I think someone with a a bit more of collected (driving) experience yet with the replacement tank needs to report here.
Achim
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Hi Achim,
It probably is too far out.
I did compare the two necks but I didn’t want to beat a dead horse so I kept the original discussion pretty simple. The originaI tank neck was fine. I remember it being like the one you posted, but definitely not so short that I could not install the grommet. I also searched every Pagoda photo I could find on the web (many, many), but like everything else on the web, there are few details and the photos are not quite high enough resolution nor taken from close enough to really see detail.
Most of them become pixelated when zoomed.
Regarding the old and new tank and neck comparison, I’ve attached another copy of that photo with lines showing that it was still about 10 mm shorter than the original. The upper yellow line is a copy of the lower yellow line. That’s about the best I can do with my tools (a camera and MS Paint). I tried to eliminate as much parallax as possible when I took the original photo. The red lines are pretty parallel except for the center of the upper end of the neck, so it really is still just a little shorter.
HOWEVER, I did take into consideration that I would have to “eyeball” the cap location and am able to move the cap either closer or farther from the grommet. The location in the previous photo is with the grommet against the inner end of the cap cam sleeve. In the new photo below I have moved the neck end closer to the body and the grommet is actually resting on the outer diameter of the cap cam sleeve about 6 mm from the cap gasket surface. I tried to make it as much as possible like the photo you posted.
Regarding the photo you posted being correct and untouched, I think I would have said it is original and untouched. There is probably a range of correct positions. I would suggest that because there are sheet metal stampings, weld studs and slotted holes involved in the tolerance stack-up between the cap location and the three tank to body attachments, the production cap location tolerance is likely to be at least plus or minus 2 mm.
I sometimes question whether Daimler-Benz engineers are as anal about their cars as we (or at least, I) tend to be.
And finally, yes, the rubber hose is a Gates 24713 (the number denotes the 57 mm ID and 45 degree elbow shape), and is designed as a fuel filler hose. Here’s what Gates says about this series of hoses.
Fuel Filler Neck Hose
• Designed specifically for auxiliary gas tanks on recreational vehicles. Excellent replacement for passenger cars and trucks where a straight hose with a minimal bend is required.
• Suitable for use with gasoline, gasohol blends of ethanol, methanol, ethers , diesel and biodiesel to B20 (up to maximum concentrations allowed by the EPA).
• Smooth oil resistant cover, tough textile cord reinforcement and petroleum-resistant nitrile tube.
• Non-wire reinforced
• Meets SAE 30R6 specifications.
• Temperature rating: -40°F to +212°F (-40°C to +100°C)
• Biodiesel (B20) temperature rating: -40°F to +212°F (-40°C to +51°C)
• CAUTION: Not recommended for marine gasoline applications
I'm using 9 mm slotless stainless steel clamps with stainless steel screws with two per neck-piece. I am paranoid, but I am also experienced.
If the tank had not been damaged on arrival or if I had been closer to the shipper, I would never have thought to repair it. The last thing I wanted to do was start redesigning the sheet metal of the tank to fit my car.
As I tend to say about the old cars I’ve owned, “I tend toward being a purist, but I’m not a masochist.”
Tom Kizer