Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Drive train, fuel, suspension, steering & brakes => Topic started by: dirkbalter on April 07, 2017, 21:26:54
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All,
I a recent thread that discussed the plating of components for our cars, we established that it might be helpful to generate a file showing and listing all the components for plating, mainly cadmium plating.
I volunteered to help with the generation of the file and I am looking for help from you.
I will probable separate the areas into:
Engine, Engine bay, Front Axle and Suspension, Rear Axle and Suspension, Other.
The intent is to match the original plating scheme, not necessarily to plate whatever is possible.
I believe quite a few members already went through the exercise of listing, taking pictures and plating components of their cars. If you have any lists, or pictures, or else, that you are willing to share, your help would be much appreciated.
Ideally, someone has original pictures of the above areas that show the type of plating. Also pictures of restored to original cars (areas of the cars) would be helpful.
I myself will search thru the threads and published pics to gather useful information. (Just starting).
Any help or suggestions are welcome.
You can also e-mail me at dirkbalter@hotmail .com
Thanks
Dirk
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It would also be helpful to have a list of places where the factory used paint to indicate where a screw or nut was checked after fastening. I see the brake booster bracket has the correct paint marks on the fastening nuts - nice work. lots of stuff under the car with paint marks.
Maybe we are near the point of being able to do high level judging of really nice cars at our national events. I know that's been started but is it a club objective?
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That is another good idea but will need to be in a totally separate section. Paint inspection. I believe most of that to be undercarriage and engine bay. There are numerous threads about that, but not in one place. I have several pictures I can contribute if we have a place to put it.
Thanks for getting this started Dirk.
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There are indeed numerous threads on this. Just search for "dotology" and you'll get about 12 hits.
One of them includes a quote by Frank Mallory:
"Actually, there is a field of study know as "dotology" that is devoted
to analysis, recognition, and cataloging of the paint spots on Mercedes
(no joke).
Most of the paint spots were applied by the special torque wrenches used
by Factory inspectors; when the wrench reached the specified valoe for
that fitting, it squirted out some paint.
Other spots were put on springs, motor mounts, and other components, to
designate their value in shore hardness, etc.
The reason these marks are being studied is that when a car is restored
to 100 point condition, it is considered essential that it have the same
paint spots it left the Factory with.
Frank M."
But I agree this should be totally separate from Dirk's initiative.
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Another possible format for some documentation, would be to collect photos like this with information on every assembly with the hardware. Adding the factory part numbers, for the hardware with descriptions from the dealer parts book in each photo would make it complete.
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I agree this is a good idea. Keep in mind that there were changes through the years on the pieces/parts for plating. One example from the photo (which is from the 280 SL sales brochure) shows the automatic transmission dipstick with plating and a small white sticker on the top. Later dipsticks had a black rubber cap.
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A good resource for the plated parts on various models is Motoring Investments. Brian seems to like to deal in very top shelf cars many of which are unrestored low mileage examples.
http://motoringinvestments.com/
http://historic.motoringinvestments.com/
Here are a some really fine points that tend to get overlooked:
Straps for Power steering reservoir, and coolant expansion tank(later cars), Distributor vacuum can, Later small oil filler cap and at least the later cold start solenoid are Bright Cadmium(Zinc).
Shoulder bolt for the alternator bracket to engine block, shoulder bolt for brake pedal linkage to booster and brake caliper mounting bolts are Black Oxide.
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I am in the process of collection photos of the areas in question. Thanks to Shvegel (and others) for the link and comments. As Jonny pointed out correctly, the engine pic is from an original sales brochure.
I am under the impression that I don’t need permission to used published photos for our purpose. Is that correct?
Dirk
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I have two pictures of a 280SE (not SL) engine and not sure where they came from. Even though not a SL engine, has most of the same features. Hopefully has some use.
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I would be more than happy to donate my engine bay photos (250SL and 280SL) to the cause.
John
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John, great,
I was about to PM you. I got your information from a member who suggested the same.
I understand that you have original pictures from when your car was new. Particularly engine bay........
Thank you for sharing.
(dirkbalter@hotmail.com)
Dirk
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John, great,
I was about to PM you. I got your information from a member who suggested the same.
I understand that you have original pictures from when your car was new. Particularly engine bay........
Thank you for sharing.
(dirkbalter@hotmail.com)
Dirk
Three photos are on the way.
John
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I forgot the front crankshaft bolt and washers which are also black oxide.
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Thanks.
Also thanks to John, got your photos.
Dirk
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Black parts are probably not black oxide but rather black phosphate which will outlast black oxide several times over. At any rate, that's what I would use.
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Dr.
I agree that phosphate coating is a step up from black oxide with respect to corrosion protection. The parts I had (for different reasons) black phosphate coated, had a somewhat rough surfaces afterwards and were rather dull than shiny. Do you see the same?
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The other even more durable option is a black zinc. Tends to be smoother and more shiny than either phosphate or oxide coating. But much more durable and I do that at home as well.
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Below is a link to the plating specs and the guys we are using. As you see, there are all kind of coatings for different reasons. Our goal is a dark or black finish with maximum corrosion protection at a reasonable price. I will be there next week and will get their opinion or recommendation as well.
http://techplate.com/specchart1rev.htm
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Great list and thanks for posting. Both black oxide and phosphate look like they require some regular maintenance as the "black" coating is just a vehicle for holding a corrosion inhibitor. When they talk about "oiling your bolts", it is for this type of coating. My old '60 220SE has mostly black oxide/phosphate coating on the hardware with a bit of probably CAD (silver). The black colored bolts were all mostly rusted. They are now black zinc and no more oiling.
By the time they got to the W111 and W113, looks like the yellow zinc/cad was in vogue. I had absolutely no yellow zinc/cad on the '60 car. I say zinc/cad because I have no idea which it was. Where as on the '60 Ponton, I am assuming it was silver CAD which by the way were in OK shape after 50+ years.
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Dr.
I agree that phosphate coating is a step up from black oxide with respect to corrosion protection. The parts I had (for different reasons) black phosphate coated, had a somewhat rough surfaces afterwards and were rather dull than shiny. Do you see the same?
My stuff had a sort of dull satin finish. I think it's important to have your parts cleaned really well, then sand blasting, and then polishing until shiny. Anything that's not shiny before plating will take on a dull appearance after plating.
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I haven't done much on the CAD plating chart yet but did talk to the plating guy with respect to black oxide / phosphate coating. Below is from their side:
Black Oxide
Black Oxide Coating process was originally developed during the early 1900’s. The modern bath become commercially prevalent during the later 1930’s and has remained so through today. With little advancement to the actual chemical process, BOI is commitment to continuous improvement in techniques, education, and latest technology has advanced BOI to the top of the Chemical Conversion Coating profession.
Black Oxide process applies to ferrous, non-ferrous, brass and copper alloy. The Black Oxide is a true conversion coating converting iron to the naturally occurring black iron oxide compound called magnetite. The magnetite is produced through chemical reaction as the alloy is immersed into the hot blackening solution. Dwell times depend on such parameters as base alloy, part density, surface hardness, and nature of the heat treated surface. The Black Oxide conversion will not reduce hardness or affect the dimensional characteristics of the finished part. Producing no appreciable dimensional change, it has been documented to be measured at 5 millionths of an inch. The coating becomes an integral part of the base metal surface and does not chip, peel, crack, or rub off. When aesthetics are specified, note that the gloss level or shade of black cannot be controlled. The finish is dependent on the condition or finish of the base material. The desired gloss level may be achieved prior to the Black Oxide process through mechanical means. Machining, polishing, line-graining, abrasive blast, polishing and buffing, all play an integral part in achieving a desired shade or gloss level of black color. Black Oxide is considered as a non-sacrificial coating, meaning it offers a limited amount of corrosion protection and generally is specified when dimensional build-up of a more corrosion resistant finish cannot be tolerated.
BOI performs Black Oxide processes certifying to various aerospace, military, and prime customer specifications:
MIL-DTL-13924 Class 1, 2, 3, & 4 (steel & stainless steel)
AMS-2485 (steel)
MIL-F-495 (brass & copper)
Phosphate Coatings
Phosphate Coatings became popular during the First & Second World War as it was discovered that treating metal surfaces to modify their properties for various purposes including corrosion protection, improving paint adhesion, and improved lubricity. A war-time shortage of tin resulted in phosphate as an option to replace tin plated steel. Phosphate coatings in the original rust-proofing application probably reached an all-time record high during the war particularly in the UK and USA with vast quantities of armament parts owning their durability in service to this treatment. Popularity carried over in post war years as newer applications of phosphate coatings appeared. With few fundamental advancement in the phosphate process since this time, steady advance in techniques have accelerated popularity among metal manufacturers.
Both Zinc & Manganese Phosphate coating are typically a stand alone coating or used as a base for paint or other top coat finishes. Phosphate offers a greatly enhanced bonding on ferrous alloy in addition to being an underlying base coat for added corrosion protection. As a stand alone coating, phosphate provides excellent base for holding rust preventatives, lubricants, etc. A friable crystalline structure is formed which is an excellent anti-galling selection for break in application for shafts, gears, and various moving assemblies.
BOI performs both immersion zinc & manganese phosphate coating processes certifying to various aerospace & military specifications:
MIL-DTL-16232 Type M & Type Z, Class 1, 2, & 3
AMS 2480 (Zinc Phosphate) AMS 2481 (Manganese Phosphate)
I am told and understand that black oxide is used if no dimensional change can be tolerated. ( no build up)
One step up with respect to corrosion protection is phosphate coating. A Zink Phosphate is recommended. If max corrosion protection is desired, a supplemental oil treatment can be added.
He recommended:
MIL-DTL-16232, Type Z, CLASS1 - OIL FINISH
OR
MIL-DTL-16232, Type Z, CLASS3 (no supplemental finish)
Dirk
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Hello Dirk,
Have you been able to make any progress, or did you receive any good candidates from members?
I just put my 1970 280SL up on stands and drained all the fluids and I have removed the hood and Brake Booster. Now I am ready to begin the process of taking off the parts for cleaning and re-plating. Some should probably be replaced.
When I removed the Brake Boost Drum, the mounting flange that is still attached to the firewall, looks like it needs a good cleaning, so I will probably need to remove it too. One thing leads to another...
I will be setting up a door on a couple of Saw Horses with news print covering it, so I can lay out my parts on the table and photographs them and notate them.
If you have any examples of good approaches for this, or for spreadsheets to track it all, I'd appreciate any help you could give.
Kind regards,
Roland
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Roland,
I haven’t made much progress. I was gone for the better part of the last two month. I did however collect a bunch of engine and engine bay photos. Some are original and some in restored condition, from members as well as from restoration houses. It was pointed out by above that not all restorations are necessarily to the original condition.
Tom Kizer created a spread sheet that he used and was willing to share.
I am more than happy to send you what I have.
Dirk
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Hi Dirk,
I would love to have anything that would help me get organized and set up a system as I started removing parts. I have already removed the brake booster and I see a small clamp and screw over the wiring harness underneath. I'd like to take that off too, but that begins the 'little things that can easily get lost' list and I'd like to have a system in place first.
Kind regards,
Roland
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Roland,
I will e-mail you what I have.
Dirk
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I found that one problem I had identifying parts during my restoration is when, at one point, I lost my discipline and did not fill out the detailed measurements in my spreadsheet for about one and a half pages. Knowing what I removed was not enough. I needed the measurements also. Example: I could figure out from the EPC that a screw was supposed to be M6, but how long? Several times I found that I had used a screw that was supposed to be used somewhere else, with a length difference between the screws of only 3 or 4 millimeters. I had to remove a screw to use elsewhere because the only ones I had left were too short. Discipline is really important.
I also found that, although I had taken hundreds of photos of the car before disassembly, it wasn't enough. I should have taken more closeup photos DURING disassembly.
In addition, when I got my parts back from plating, I tried to sort them into the batches that I originally photographed each time a large sheet of paper was filled up with removed parts. Because I had not adequately identified in enough detail the individual parts, I was only about 80% successful. It's not bad, but 20% of 1600 parts is still 320 parts to figure out where they go and which one to use for what.
Don't forget the many, many parts that have to be thrown away and bought new, like the sealing washers and gaskets, and even parts that are damaged during removal. If I had it to do over, I would have kept them, photographed them, measured them, identified where they go and identified them as parts to be bought.
But, all in all, I am satisfied with the parts tracking system that I used and am still using. If I did it again, I think the next time it would be perfect.
Oh well, life goes on.
Tom Kizer
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Hi Tom,
With regard to the 20% of parts that you ended up with, were you sending out the parts in "Batches" that corresponded to the pictures, or did the parts get consolidated into one group when they were sent out?
Also, as you removed parts, how did you determine which parts required CAD Yellow, etc. and how did you find the part numbers for ordering replacements?
Kind regards,
Roland
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I did the batch photos and the spreadsheet pages simultaneously as I disassembled the car. When a photo and it's corresponding spreadsheet page(s) were finished, I dumped the parts all together in a bucket for cleaning (I didn't clean enough to get really good CAD results.
After about 13 photo batches and 15 spreadsheet pages, I cleaned them and sent them (about 1600 parts of all types and sizes) to DeTray Plating in Missouri.
When they came back in many miscellaneous bags in boxes, I started sorting them and trying to bag them in one large baggie per batch, using the batch photos and the spreadsheets. That's where the 20% of unidentifiable/unsortable parts showed up.
Buying parts to replace those broken or too badly damaged/rusted to CAD plate and reuse was done by identifying what to buy as I removed them from the car, using the EPC. There are several places to get access to the EPC. Since I'm not making a show car, I pretty much CAD plated everything under the hood based on photos of restored and Pagoda group member cars.
I figured I could paint anything that was supposed to be black. I bought a lot of stainless steel fasteners to replace rusted ones and had them CAD plated with all the others, although one has to keep them separate and identify them to the plater. He treats them differently in the CAD process.
Keep the questions coming.
Tom Kizer
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In another post, I am asking about the Brake Booster. I removed mine and there are parts of it that are supposed to have CAD coating while the main housing is black paint. What did you do with yours?
Oh, and forgive my lack of knowledge, but what is the "EPC"?
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Since I really didn't consider that I had the knowledge, equipment, experience or talent to restore something that my and my wife's lives depended on, I packed the brake booster up and sent it to Power Brake Exchange in California. They rebuilt it and sent it back, and I put a new rebuilt master cylinder on it.
The EPC is the Mercedes Benz Electronic Parts Catalog. It identifies all the parts of their cars by part number, even the evolution of the parts, by car VIN, as they were updated and redesigned over the years of their production. It used to be free to those in the U.S, but not any more, I think.
When you look at the SLS parts web site, they have an equivalent and somewhere on their site (I can't find it now) they even have a printable version in their online catalog, but they use their own part numbers. Many of the Pagoda Parts sellers have an equivalent. There is also access to the EPC through a Russian web site, but I didn't find it too helpful. You should be able to find a useful version by searching this site. I had free access to the "real" one but M-B removed my access. I don't know why.
Tom K.
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Here is an alternative to the EPC and free. I got it from a post on here somewhere.
https://nemiga.com/cat_spares/epc/mercedes/1/113/
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Tom I shudder to think how I'm going to put my Pagoda back together considering I bought it already disassembled :(
Enjoy your posts,
Reds, Joe
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Hi, Joe,
Just stay on the site and ask lots of questions. We've got thousands of photos and people on this site with tons of expertise. I ask lots of questions and almost always get great answers.
Good luck with yours.
Tom Kizer
Levis, Quebec, Canada
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Tom,
Thank you very much! I will follow suit with my brake booster.
The parts info will be of great help.
I have now removed the air filter housing, battery, and radiator/oil cooler. Plus I removed the front grill.
Next, I will turn to removing the fuel injection lines.
Thanks again,
Roland
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Wallace,
Thank you very much. This looks like it will be a great help.
Kind regards,
Roland