Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Research & Development => Topic started by: Cees Klumper on January 29, 2017, 20:08:40
-
I can't recall whether anyone already did this, but it occurs to me that, in the not too distant future, many of our cars will be converted to electric powertrains. Is it time for the Group to start thinking about this, or is it still too early? I know there are companies that do this for a living already, but does anyone know of an electrified Pagoda? What would be the cost if I would want to do this now?
-
Cees,
There was one that came onto eBay several times a few years ago and commented on here.
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=17384.msg120163#msg120163
and here
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=16516.msg114345#msg114345
Even you commented ;D
-
Tim Kidder converted a 190SL over to electric and I think he received little to no interest on it. My basic reaction is ............. YUCK!!!!
-
So my memory is not the greatest, thanks For digging that up Garry.
Yuck or not Dan, there will come a time.
-
Hi Cees,
There are several sites that provide the components as well as guidance to do the work,
Here is one (you may have seen it) ----> http://www.canev.com/kits.php
I will stick with my engine as long as they let me :)
Dieter
-
I will stick with my engine as long as they let me :)
Dieter
I'm with you Dieter.........but, I might convert to wood! We have a lot of trees in Alabama.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CN5GEBbaf7Y
I have had a ride with Wayne in one of his earlier conversions. Quite an experience!!!
-
So my memory is not the greatest, thanks For digging that up Garry.
Yuck or not Dan, there will come a time.
Full electric cars are not much good except in cities and there are a lot of remote rural areas in NA. None of this electric stuff will work for transport trucks, heavy construction equipment, or farm use. A lot of these applications are now using a blue tec type system but it's not on everything yet. Oil will be powering things for a long time.
-
Heavy construction equipment you say?
http://www.forconstructionpros.com/product/10090645/caterpillar-cat-d7e-electric-drive-tractor
-
Heavy construction equipment you say?
http://www.forconstructionpros.com/product/10090645/caterpillar-cat-d7e-electric-drive-tractor
Electric? Powered by a 235hp diesel engine...
-
Well, that Caterpillar D7E is using just what American locomotives have been using since steam departed...diesel electric.
Having had two PEV hybrids for two years each, and living in a place that experiences all four seasons in their glory (hot humid summers and cold snowy winters) I can tell you I'm more enamored with a hybrid that carries it's own power generation (such as the Chevy Volt) than I am with a pure electric Chevy Bolt--or any other brand equivalents.
There's a huge elephant in the room that nobody likes to bring up and less to talk about: electric cars like it like we do, humans that is. Temperate between 68-72 degrees. Once you get into any situation that requires climate control such as the heat of summer or the cold of winter, or even mundane things like defrosting, your "mileage" goes to *&^% in a handbag. My totally computer controlled PEV would start out fresh with an 18 mile range, but if the a/c or heat were required, I could see that drop to 10 in about half a mile. The massive battery pack (cost: $7,000.00) require heaters in the winter too, so it isn't just keeping the occupants or driver warm. Then there is that darn charging factor: using a Level II 220V charger it still took over 2 hours to charge up our cars. While some places offered "free" charge stations (nothing is free; someone was paying for it) more than likely the place, such as our public library, offered charging for $2.00 per charge. Considering our cars got 38+ MPG on pure gasoline, using the library to charge was not a cost effective idea.
No question there's an electric revolution going on but there still a lot of engineering work to be done. One of the big "reveals" at the North American International Auto Show was the Chevrolet Bolt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Bolt which is claiming a range of 238 miles. I would be quite curious to see how that range changes in the heat of summer and the cold of winter. Nobody's talking about that...
-
Check this conversion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f24zbY8AkTI
-
I'm familiar with diesel electric systems. Very early combines had electric rather than hydraulic header lift and they all eventually caught on fire. I'm sure modern systems would be much better, and new combines employ a huge amount of electronics, but I don't see were you could improve upon those systems currently in use. It's simply a non starter. ( pun intended )
One of the things that irritates me is how electric car buyers get about a $7,500.00 tax credit from the Ontario Government. Since these cars cost a lot more than a comparable gas unit, only wealthy people tend to buy them. This tax credit has a way of helping people who probably don't need it, which in the end puts a question mark on all sorts of green energy programs.
-
Check this conversion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f24zbY8AkTI
It's exactly watching this episode of Wheeler Dealers that prompted my question Johan ...
-
Cees, The Youtube video is blocked from the US by Discovery's copyright.
I have a friend with a Tesla S who just drove to Daytona and Back on one charge. (about 180 miles) Of course he wasn't in "Ludicrous Mode" where it does 0-60 in 2.9 seconds.
About two years ago, for a project I was writing, I got information from the US Department of Energy showing that the US consumes around 4 million gallons of petrofuels each second. Given that, it would take a LOT of trees from Alabama. Another elephant in Michael's room is how to recycle all of those batteries when they are spent.
Do you think it's because of the temporary drop in oil prices that we don't focus on hydrogen fuel cells? They can generate hydrogen as you go so you don't have to have an explosive tank behind your bumper. The risks would not be any higher than a gasoline explosion. And the exhaust is phenomenally clean. Toyota had a working prototype a few years ago and then Fracking came online and oil dropped to $35 per barrel. But prices are climbing again.
-
Another elephant in Michael's room is how to recycle all of those batteries when they are spent.
I believe that most of the batteries contain metals and other products that can be recycled and/or repurposed, and of course on a large scale, this would happen.
I have a very old book, (c)1935 titled "The Triumph of an Idea: The Story of Henry Ford". In it, it describes in great detail old Henry's material sourcing, his reasons for vertical integration (before the term was invented) of maintaining control over quality and delivery. The author also describes the Ford corporate recycling center (though the term wasn't yet invented either) where spent cars of yesteryear were disassembed and most of the materials were reused in some fashion. As I re-read parts of this book, I wonder if we've learned anything in the ensuing 82 years since publication, since it's all been done before.
As for fuel cells, Raymond, what happened is this: they need hydrogen to generate electricity, they don't generate hydrogen "as you go". But the challenge was, is, and continues to be that hydrogen is rarely found in nature; it's usually bound to something like oxygen: H2O, water for example. [Nearly all the hydrogen currently manufactured in the USA comes from fossil fuels.] And that bond is tough to break, and takes energy to do so. Now, if there were a great way to generate hydrogen by electrolysis of water that didn't consume more energy than it generated, we'd be set. That's the holy grail.
Some years ago, there was some research done on this, and a method to do was was developed. It hasn't gone anywhere, however. The research was from Professor Jerry Woodall http://engineering.ucdavis.edu/biographies/jerry-woodall/ formerly of Purdue, now at UC Davis. The process is called gallium aluminum hydrolysis. http://www.purdue.edu/uns/x/2007a/070515WoodallHydrogen.html
If only...
-
How about the Air Car?
http://www.forconstructionpros.com/product/10090645/caterpillar-cat-d7e-electric-drive-tractor
-
Hi Michael
this is a good idea because it avoids distributing the hydrogen gas, as you noted. I had not heard of this process before.
I don't think there's that much gallium in our resource stream, so this might be an obstacle to using this method widely.
Also, of course it's critical to note that this process doesn't actually generate energy from a free source. The article mentions that it takes a lot of energy to extract aluminum, either from plentiful minerals or from the aluminum oxide that is produced by this process. The energy required represents an expense that has to be included in the price of this system. But it's still a good idea because the aluminum can be extracted at convenient times and places, where surplus electricity is available. I think it's a fairly complex and even dangerous process to extract aluminum, so it might not be feasible to build something into a car that would recycle the aluminum oxide. You'd probably have to do that at centralized facilities, and the aluminum oxide produced in the cars would have to be returned there.
The article also notes that there's a considerable advantage in efficiency if the hydrogen is used in a fuel cell, instead of an internal combustion engine.
-
...this is a good idea...
http://woodall.ece.ucdavis.edu/research/media/
-
These guys have done a Beetle, a RangeRover and are doing a 911
https://www.electricclassiccars.co.uk/
https://www.facebook.com/electricclassiccars/
Beetle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXsQGWWz3Is
Video shot near Moggy's workshop in Wales... Great roads
-
If Mercedes were to offer the same type of factory electric conversion as per the Jaguar link below then I would definitely be ready to adapt my car to the electric future.
http://media.jaguar.com/news/2017/09/jaguar-e-type-zero-most-beautiful-electric-car-world?q=&start=0&brand=jaguar
I contacted the product team at Mercedes & the Classic Centre but the response was not encouraging.
Personally I think this would be a great commercial opportunity for Mercedes with the added benefit of ensuring that our cars and other classic series have a viable future.
Surely it's a no-brainer??
-
What about the exhaust note though. A Jag or Merc without the burble would be just plain wrong ;D ;D ;D
-
That is part of the dilemma Garry.......
I love the burble of our engines. but in years to come I can see that the trend of banning/limiting usage of petrol/diesel cars will become a reality.
Then I'd be willing to sacrifice the exhaust note as a trade off to still keeping our cars relevant and usable !
-
Interesting that Jaguar are now doing this. The range is also not bad, 170 miles on a charge, with the electric motor and battery pack weighing less than the original engine and transmission. As battery technology improves, so will the range and charging times. Exhaust burble is something that modern cars already have 'engineered in' although I could get used to quieter driving rather quickly, I think.
I'm not surprised Mercedes is not going the same way as Jaguar, at least not for a while. Also, they would probably be a lot more expensive to have a conversion done than by specialized shops. But I predit that, 10 years from now, this forum will have a separate section devoted to electric conversions.
-
I've been following this guy up in Ottawa.
He's taken:
- Factory Five Racing 818 kit car.
- Tesla Model P85 motor
- 2 Chevy Volt batteries
And made a crazy fast roadster. It weighs in around 2500 lbs and now makes 530 HP ( first version was 420 HP )
Dyno video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OITr1kTutQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OITr1kTutQ)
Quarter mile run : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyjxXtuXeRw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyjxXtuXeRw)
He's now turned it into a new business http://www.ev-controls.com/ (http://www.ev-controls.com/)
I'm thinking of building one of these for auto cross, but I'd never electrify my Pagoda
-
Building cars that run on electricity or any alternative energy source is just the tip of the iceberg. There is no question that the transportation industry will gradually evolve into something completely different than what we see today. It is already happening with Elon Musks Boring Company tunnel project already underway in California and he has a good chance to start one in Chicago. Autonomous vehicles and the fact that younger generations would rather Uber than own a car will gradually make this transition more acceptable and desirable. It makes me wonder if people will even have an interest in classic cars in the future.
This video will give you an idea of where things are heading. Yes there are cars in the video, but also pods with people who just want to go somewhere and not pay attention to pedestrians and other vehicles.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5V_VzRrSBI
-
Jaguar in the UK have built at least one electric E-type. Evidently it performs quite well. Now, how far it will go, I have no idea.
-
Their website claims 170 miles 'in real world comditions'
-
What about the exhaust note though. A Jag or Merc without the burble would be just plain wrong ;D ;D ;D
Garry, I drove several ///M3’s before I came over to the dark side and changes=d to a C63 AMG as my Daily Driver. When I did this BMW was just interfacing the new ///M3 and ///M4. What they then offered since they went down from the V8 to a V6 with Turbo was for the exhaust sound to be piped over the radio LOL ... this convinced me to let the ///M3 go and get the C63 AMG ~smile~ this along with the Run Flat Tires gave it the final push.
I drive my C63 AMG for safety not for speed, it’s nice to know one has the extra ponies under the hood :) when needed.
The link to the BMW exhaust sound —-> http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/showthread.php?t=893548
Dieter
-
I posted a while back about an EV converted 230sl. This car is now finished and driveable. Here is one video from the series. See the youtube users channel for all of the EV 230sl build videos.
https://youtu.be/Hi2mzUnc28U
-
... This car is now finished and driveable. Here is one video from the series. ....
and here is the last one describing the finished conversion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGuYMYk0xd8
-
Or a very fast mustang from Texas.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cjQtrysPzVI
No range at all but built for one purpose only
-
A recent trend where I live is to have preferential parking spaces for zero or low emission vehicles. Understanding that 50 percent of the electricity in the USA is generated by burning coal tells me a battery operated vehicle is at lest partially running on coal and partially running on nuclear power. Hardly seems like a cause for celebration.
-
Actually, according the the US Dept. of Energy, in 2016, 30% is coal, 34% Natural gas, & 20% nuclear. More coal plants shut down in 2017. Even coal, in a controlled generating plant, puts less carbon per BTU into the air than a Pagoda by a long shot. So there is some cause for some celebration. This example may not be the champion for EVs but it is an interesting experiment from which lessons will be learned. If enough of the world converts to electric transportation, perhaps the atmosphere will be better able absorb the exhaust from our Pagodas and other collectibles.
-
Interesting that,
UK is 40% gas, 23% renewables, 20% nuclear, 8% coal and 7% oil
-
It is an interesting mix Australia without any nuclear by choice is:
Coal 73%, Gas 13%, Hydropower 7% Wind 4% Roof top solar 2% Bioenergy 1%
Our coal fired power stations are also starting to shut down as we increase wind and solar.
-
Michael,
Thanks for bringing up tjese electrical demand issues for the heating and air conditioning. Everytime I have asked someone who is a zealot on these cars how that works, they are mum. I’ve also asked how the batteries degrade in charge as you are driving. Does the vehicle simply go slower and slower until it just stops? Realize the hybids may be a little different in this regard. I am sure you would need to also be careful aboit a whole host of other things we typically do that put electrical demands on the car like starting it or raising and lowering windows and tops!
-
Remember this.....perhaps there could be a Pagoda AAA Klasse
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEjTwsfqHOY
Shocking
Paul
-
Thanks for bringing up these electrical demand issues for the heating and air conditioning...
Well George there's a huge difference between reading and talking about electric cars and actually owning them. I did have two, as noted for two years.
Which brings to mind another thing...all this talk of self-driving cars! Recently while driving in light snow, the sensors on my Taurus became blocked, thus turning off the cruise control, and front-crash sensors. (this happens all the time on both my cars) I had to drive the old fashion way--with my head, my eyes, and my brain. Then, the weather took a turn for the worse, becoming foggy, with the snow, and the lanes disappearing. I'm here to tell you that if the sensors on a car can't even last through minor show w/o getting blocked, we have a very, very long way to go before this "mobility" things gets very far.
It's great if all weather conditions mirrored San Diego, but that's just a dream (except for Alfred)...