Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: usedparts on November 27, 2016, 22:37:53
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Hello, I am new to this group and excited to be a member.
I am in the market for a 1971 SL. I was advised by a few car collectors 71 SL was the year to purchase for a long-term investment. Unfortunately I have a limited budget ($70K not to exceed). I've looked at a few cars in this price range and all the cars needed a considerable amount of cosmetic work. My concern is the overall maintenance cost of the car. A few internet SL sites advised purchase a fully restore 71 SL, due to the high cost to maintenance as well as to restore the car. These sites are trying to sell their 1971 SL for $120K, which is out of my price range. I would like find a presentable 71 SL for weekend driving as well as in the future (3 years out) the option to restore the car and take it the next level.
I've also looked at few cars from 69 to 70 in budget and they are in much better overall shape. A comparable 71 would be priced around $120K(+/-) My questions is should I invest in a early year SL in better shape and in my budget range or delay the purchase for another year or two and add to the budget for a cleaner 71 SL?
Any advise would be greatly appreciated
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Welcome to the group, there are true experts here that really know these cars. I have been a casual user of this forum for a couple of years and became a full member only a couple of months ago. I am doing a full rotisserie restoration in my basement and I have posted a few photos of my progress under "280SL Restoration in Georgia".
I have a US specs, 280SL which is titled as a 1971. However when you go to the vehicle identification number and check that versus manufacturing records, the car was actually built in September of 1969. As I understand it this could happen to US cars at that time. Some these experts can tell you the reasons why but I mention this because you seem drawn to a 1971 and not all 1971's are really from 1971. Check the VIN to find out when it was built.
The 1969 is very similar to the 1971 and I have found very few parts that are not the same. However when I order any parts for my car, I always specify the VIN to make sure I get the correct parts.
Have fun with the chase. There is a car out there with your name on it. Mine had my name on it but is also had a little rust, so look at a few before you decide.
Howard
71 280SL 4-speed
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As far as I am aware, 1971 cars don't command any noticeable premium over other 280 SLs.
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P.s. I spend maybe $100 in oil and grease for annual maintenance. Sometimes hoses need replacing, or a battery, or brake discs and what have you, but depending on how much you drive it, imaintenance should cost less than on your average daily driver.
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P.s. I spend maybe $100 in oil and grease for annual maintenance. Sometimes hoses need replacing, or a battery, or brake discs and what have you, but depending on how much you drive it, imaintenance should cost less than on your average daily driver.
True, in most cases. However, getting to that point might cost a bit more.
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U.S. specification 1970 and 1971 models are somewhat more complicated to tune, since they have an emission control sytem that previous model year 280SLs don´t have. It was advanced engineering for their time, but can bring some frustration when trying to sort out hicups 46 years later...
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There is no reason to think that a 1971 280SL is worth any more or less than a 1969, 1970, 1972. Rubbish. What you want to do is find the best car at the best price and buy it independent of year.
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I agree, try to find a well maintained one, or with low miles and documentation to prove it. To me, mechanical condition is more important than exterior appearance, which a good body shop can fix. Pagodas are relatively easy to maintain by someone that knows what he is doing, but can be ruined by a an adventurous mechanic that is not familiar with them.
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Regardless of what we think, the facts say otherwise. Hagerty's price guide (based on known sales and auction data, of which there is plenty) most definitely, all other things equal, lists the highest prices for 1971 models. The differences in price are slight from 1971 on down, but they are there for certain. This is also echoed in the SL Market Letter, though in this publication, the 70/71 is listed together as are 68/69, the former commanding a higher price. The SLM also is based on actual sales data. I didn't make this up, it's all there in black and white if you have access to these publications.
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I think this is created by dealers trying to gin up the value of their offerings.
I can't count the number of times I have seen a dealer advertise "1971 model only 800 total sold."
Usually if you check the VIN it was made before 1971 but the mantra continues...
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True, in most cases. However, getting to that point might cost a bit more.
Also true, and it was in my case, but that's back maintenance. That's why the best bet is to purchase a car that's already been sorted, although bargains in that category are becoming fewer and farther in between.
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I think this is created by dealers trying to gin up the value of their offerings.
I can't count the number of times I have seen a dealer advertise "1971 model only 800 total sold."
Usually if you check the VIN it was made before 1971 but the mantra continues...
Yeah, and it's not much different than those same dealers calling them '' classic cars '' which they most certainly are not. It's all about marketing. Kind of like hormone and antibiotic free hamburgers.
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Hey, original poster (usedparts) what do you think of all these ideas?
You talk about buying a $70k car now and then possibly restoring it in 3 years.
IMHO (and others) buy the absolute best car you can afford. If you will be able to afford a restoration in the future, wait and buy a nicer, already restored car.
But, if you simply want to enjoy a Pagoda, then $70k will buy a very nice one if you don't get taken.
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This kind of banter makes me laugh. I have a set of freshly made aluminum foil hats for those that think there's a dealer conspiracy going on to elevate the price of 1971 models. Exactly what "dealers" are you talking about? Wouldn't it be in their interest to elevate the prices of any car they had, not just the 1971 models, of which only 830 were made in that year?
If you get and read either of the references I mention, you realize there's some serious thought and research put into their work. More and more auction data is available, as are many private sales in the network these two alone use. Perhaps the naysayers here show them no respect, but they are highly respected for what they do and how they do it.
As I said, I didn't make this up, go to the sources and you'll see a premium--ever so slight--for 1971 models over earlier; and for 1970 over 1969, and related. It's what the market is telling them.
As for the classic moniker, it's time the AACA gets over it, Dan. They may have trademarked or otherwise tried to police the use of the word, but when I want a tissue I often call for a Kleenex regardless of the manufacturer. When I went a copy, I often ask for a Xerox, regardless of who makes the actual copier; the friendly person behind the counter doesn't ask me if a Fuji copy would suffice. If someone talks about a Classic or classic Mercedes-Benz, I'm just as often going to think Pagoda, 190SL, Gull Wing as I am some pre-war SSK...as are most.
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Mike, you, of all people should know what a real classic car is. ACCA should get over what? That they were the ones in 1952 that came up with the name which identifies what REAL classic cars are all about?
I thought that everyone here wanted to learn as much as they can about their cars, which includes automotive history, and maybe not follow the regular crowd of dumb asses down the road like the '57 Chevy crowd. Now people are starting to call a 1980 model year car a '' classic ''. What could possibly be classic about a 1980 or even newer car?
My point is simple. Wouldn't you rather have something that sets your car apart from the '' classic '' crowd?
Pagodas are Milestone cars. But then I suspect you already know this...........
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My take on the '71 being the highest value is that it is the end of the line so people think that therefore the factory must have sorted all of the bugs by then. I think much of that rhetoric is from collectors who buy them as investments and cars just drive from auction site to car dealer to auction site without ever being really used and abused. My car is a '69 but would be a '70 if sold in the US - does that make it worth more - I doubt it.
I was talking to a mechanic last spring about years he like to work on and he said in 1970 there were some emission additions to the US cars making them a bit finicky to tune if they were not kept up over their life. He preferred the 230sl model because the engine is free'r reving and he liked manual trannys and didn't see too many 280sl manuals out there.
For years the automatic was worth more than the standard, now it seems to be going the other way - its buyer perception.
The difference in value between a 69/70/71 may show up in the price guides but if you want a car to drive just go out and get the best one you can afford and drive. Every year will have idiosyncrasies that may be better or worse than others once you really get into it, but the real joy comes in owning the car that fits your budget.
For me it had to be a euro 69 but then again it was because that was what my Dad had and that was what I determined to be the bestest after my research. Eventually I bought the car from him and at the time it was the best I could afford and it is the model and year I wanted. I don't really care if a 1971 goes up in value more - because I am driving my car now instead of "someday when I buy one".
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I bought a '71 (Registered) US manual some years back. I bought it as it was equipped the way I wanted, with no thought about it "being worth more". So what if they are, "marginally" ?
Surely Pagodas being a "classic" or not is academic, and of no value either way - as Dan says it is a Milestone car anyway. Re. US emission control I overcame that mess by removing it entirely, and fitted the earlier throttle body, and setting ignition timing accordingly.
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in the market for a 1971 SL. I was advised by a few car collectors 71 SL was the year to purchase for a long-term investment.
1971 ? Ah, no.
The 1968 is much much nicer. No bumper guards, no head rests, nicer head lights (AC) for the US version - and most important: early style (all-red) taillights.
If I could choose I would hunt for an early absolutely untouched 1968 (or '67) Italian version - with the beautiful little round Fiat-500-like fender-mounted turn-signal lamps, if possible with ZF 5-speed. Without headrests and other unnecessary stuff.
Most interesting - but extremely hard to find.
;)
Achim
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Achim, speaking of bumper guards, do you know where I can find the chrome plugs to insert into the holes once I remove my bumper guards?
I do of course have them on my 1968 (1969 US 280sl).
Thanks,
Dieter
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They should be at regular auto parts stores Dieter, I think in North America they're called antenna caps.
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ACCA should get over what?
AACA should "get over" trying to lay claim to what their definition is [of a classic] versus a swelling number of collectors and industry who utilize the term differently. If you correct everyone who calls an old car a "classic" Dan, you'll just waste your time. Sometimes definitions need revision, and who are they to lay claim to a common word in the first place? In 1952, the world was a very different place. So were the cars.
Without the AACA's stake on the word, there are many definitions of classic: many apply to cars that fall outside of the AACA definition. Definitions such as "of enduring interest, quality and style"; "of historical reknown" and more can sure be applied to many cars that the AACA might not deem worthy of the title.
I'm surely not alone when people stop me and say, "Wow, that's gorgeous! What a classic!" I'm not about to tell them that all classic cars are defined by a pedantic organization called the AACA, and my car and many others you may think are classics really are not...they'd likely look at me in puzzlement or offer a few choice words. Personally if someone wants to call the Pagoda, or 190SL, or GullWing or other post-war Mercedes-Benz a classic, I'm not going to stop them.
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Dieter: To plug the bumper guard holes, you may try early (pre-68) VW bumper bolts. Easy to find, cheap, good chrome. Jon
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Thank you Cees and Jon, great information!
Dieter
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This thread was started by "usedparts," and I hope we hear from them again. I'd like to know what impression our discussion has made. As a non-expert, I add my vote to the notion that you should buy the best car you can afford that gives you the most checkmarks on your personal wish list. If things change later, you either roll with the change or learn to live with it.
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I've been saying that you should buy the best car that you can't afford. I doubt you would disagree with that.
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Yes, Dan, that surely does apply to me. But this isn't the thread to tell my story, yet
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Whether it makes any real sense or not, the current market does value 280 SLs from 1970 and '71 higher than other 280 SLs... and as Michael pointed out, so does the collector car insurance industry.
I think a lot of it has to do with newer Pagoda SL enthusiasts, like the original poster, who begin to research the cars and see this general thought that 'investment potential' is greatest with the later models. It's a bit of a chicken and egg thing. Did everyone start saying the later cars are worth more and prices started going up (especially the high end auction houses in the past few years)... or were people asking higher prices and then everyone figured they MUST be 'worth more'.
In general terms, sale prices ARE, indeed, higher for 70 - 71 models, all else being equal, than the 68-69 models.
Frankly, I think a lot of it is just hype. Don't we see the same thing with 1989 560 SLs? Are they any better than 1988s? I don't think so, but '89s are what people decide they 'should buy for maximum investment potential'... which might be the underlying issue. Buying and having a really good car that you love and enjoy has been overshadowed since the prices of Pagoda SLs essentially doubled in the past 7 - 10 years (along with a lot of other collector cars).
Folks just getting into collector cars, people who have decided they've been working all their lives and it's about time to reward themselves and put some money in assets they can enjoy (investments) really have affected the market over the past decade. I can think of one gentleman that I know.. between 2015 and 2016 he bought a 356 cabriolet, an Alfa Giulietta spyder and a 280SL... when he was looking for the 280 he called me and said 'I only want a '70 or '71'. I asked why... and he replied, 'those are the ones to have, right?'
I think it's folks like that, new to the market, casual enthusiasts, prepared to pay money right now, for cars they've always wanted who have had a serious impact on the market and driven things upwards so quickly.
I agree with the 'buy the best car you can afford' advice... but I'd add... 'The best car you can afford and that you really love'. Don't buy a green '71 because you think it will be worth more if you've always wanted a silver car with red interior and there's a nice '68 available in that color combo. Buy what you love, what turns you on, what you'll enjoy turning around to look back at as you walk into the coffee shop on a Saturday morning... if you want to talk VALUE for the dollars... consider a 230 or 250... I don't think you'll be disappointed with the power of either car.
If you want something really unique, buy as original a car you can find, with a good story you'll enjoy retelling, even if the paint is blistered and the interior is a little beat up. Anyone (with a bunch of money) can buy a perfectly restored car, not everyone can find and buy an original car.