Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: Klaus on October 30, 2004, 10:57:36
-
In a posting dated August 15, 2004 about the ZF 5-speed transmission it is mentioned that at least one W113 owner, Hauser, has installed a later (R107) Getrag 5-speed, and the BenzDr. seconded it as a good choice.
The Mercedes-Benz Classic Center presently has a special campaign, until January 31, 2005, where they sell remanufactured ("Tauschgetriebe") Getrag manual 5-speed transmissions at reduced price. The normal price is EUR 1864.-, the reduced price is EUR 1095.-.
The part no. for the Getrag would be A 123 260 23 01 80.
Any questions, e-mail klaus.rau@daimlerchrysler.com
Klaus
1969 280 SL
-
Wow - that seems like an excellent deal, the 5-speed has been generally described as 'the holy grail'!
Besides the transmission itself, what sort of other modifications would be required to the driveline ?
Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
-
Cees, the Holy Grail is the ZF, not the Getrag.
Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220
-
Hi Doug - I know that the ZF is different from the Getrag, but in my opinion it's like with other parts Mercedes sells: if a part has superseeded another one in terms of specifications, design etc while performing the same function, Mercedes deems the new part to be "original". So if Mercedes sells the Getrag 5-speed as fit for the W113, I would consider that to be as original as the ZF. It's probably even better in terms of design etc., so I would rather have the Getrag than the ZF. I don't know that much about the ZF, but I recall reading that it's rather basic and that getting parts for it may be very difficult.
I think people consider the 5-speed to be very desirable because of its function combined with its rarity (hence the term "holy grail"), and not because of which Mercedes supplier manufactured it.
Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
-
I don't think the Getrag model in question is difficult to find. If I'm not mistaken, it was used on BMWs throughout the 80s.
I know Hauser is delighted with his, so I'm sure it's a great set-up. I'd love to hear more about what's involved in making it work in a Pagoda.
Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220
-
1095 EURO is about $1400 US. thats not bad for a fully installed 5 speed. I yearn for a 5 speed with the overdrive high gear every time I take my car on a road trip that involves long miles on the freeway. Where is this being done? Anywhere near San Francisco?
Chuck
-
Paul Kaminski did all the mechanical work and pretty much put this whole car together. He even rebuilt the speedometer himself along with a new wire harness. He said it was a pain in the ass fitting the Getrag on this car. Not an easy venture that's for sure!
I don't know when I'll have a chance but I'll try to post a pic or two of the belly of this beast next time I have it on a lift.
1969 280sl 5 spd 1999 ML320 Gainesville,Fl.
-
Hello,
Are these transmissions the early configuration top shift single linkage rod or the later side shifter three linkage rod varieties?
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
-
Of course the price is only for the part, without installation, ex-Germany. So it may be more interesting, if at all, for our members in Europe.
MB is selling it for the 107.042 (280 SL) and the 126.021,022,023 (280 S, SE, SEL).
They have also a version, part no. A 123 260 21 01 80, for the 4-cylinder W123 models 230 E, 200, 230 CE, 200 T, 230 T (123.200, .220, .223, .243, .280, .283).
Officially they are not saying that it is suitable for the W113, but we know it has been done.
Douglas, do you know what BMW is charging for a Getrag 5-speed?
Joe, their flyer, Classic Information 09/2004, does not say which configuration it is; you may know from the above models which one it is. Otherwise you would have to e-mail them or Tel. (49) 711 17 83559.
Klaus
1969 280 SL
-
The trans in hauser's car is really shoe horned into the limited space available. They had to cut a hole in the tunnel and then cover it with a cup shaped patch just to make it fit. I believe the case is made out of aluminum so it would be a bit lighter than a ZF.
Shifting was very crisp in the getrag but then it's probably 25 years newer than my ZF box. It seemed to shift well when cold - something a ZF can't do until fully warmed. If my trans had all new syncros it would probably shift better as it will grind a bit down shifting into 3rd gear if done too quickly. A lot of trans seem to do this in 3rd gear if worn.
The ZF is the holly grail - make NO mistake about that. At 850 cars ( 113 ) and about 1,400 in total, it's a very rare option. Parts are available but very exspensive. It's by no means a basic trans. The MB box is basic by comparison.
Daniel G Caron
-
Hauser, was your car originally an automatic or was it always a stick? I ask because I'm curious about the conversion from auto to stick vs. 4-spd to 5-spd. What does the VIN indicate?
Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220
-
My car was originally a 4 speed vin 113044-10-010663.
1969 280sl 5 spd 1999 ML320 Gainesville,Fl.
-
WHAT MODEL IS THE GETRAG THAT WILL FIT IN THE 69 280SL? IS IT A GETRAG 265?
1969 MERCEDES 280SL
WHITE ON BLACK/ BLACK HARD TOP
-
The Benz Dr. (Dan Caron) says 5 speed ZF parts "are available but very expensive". Dan, where does one go & to whom for parts & service for these units? I understand that reverse is the usual first presentation of trouble & that parts are basically unavailable either here or from Germany. So, your remark offers some hope possibly. Can you expand on them? -JP-'66 230SL 5 spd ZF
-
JP,
I've got a 5 speed ZF on my Euro 230SL (1967) purchased in Italy in 1976. My ZF was rebuilt in Mannheim Germany while I was stationed in Kaiserlautern in 1983 but I too have asked about parts availability for the ZF. Here's what I have found out. Micahel Eagan who lives nearby in Arlington did extensive research on this when he went about putting a ZF into his own 280SL. Looks like all of the parts were bought up by a gentleman by the name of Hans Bucher in Mannheim. He has a website. I have inquired of him on a number of parts I was interested in purchasing including a rear cover plate. All of the parts I was looking for were no longer available. I asked for a list of what is available but did not get a response so I'm not sure what he actually has anymore. There is also another company in Portland Oregon--do a seach on MIE and Maserati and you should be able to find it-- that supplies parts for the Maserati--some Maserati's used a ZF S5-20 but the shift linkage and rear cover plate are not the same as the unit used on the Pagodas--there may also be additional differences. It sounds like he may have some of the internals--not sure if these would be new or itmes taken from salvaged units but if you need something I would give them a call. I was able to get a rear cover gasket--no big deal, I'm sure I could have fabricated this from gasket material if I had to. Fortunatetly I was able to make an on car repair of my rear cover plate using some JB Weld and fiberglass cloth to stitch the broken ear on the speedometer connection fitting--it works and does not leak so I'm happy with it! Wish I had better news on where to get these rare parts.
George Des
-
Jp and other ZF 5 Speeders,
I forgot to mention in my last post that many parts-primarily the seals, bearings, nuts bolts, studs and washers-- in the S5-20 are standard metric or DIN items. For example, the two bearings on the main and input shaft are 6307N with snap rings--SKF, FAG and several other bearing suppliers can provide these. The two bearings on the countershaft are tapered roller bearings (LM67048). The mating piece to this is LM67010. These bearings are very common--used both in aircraft landing gear and boat trailer hubs. FAG, SKF and Timken can provide these. The needle roller bearings used on the input shaft (K26X44X18)and under several of the main gears(Number of bearing under each varies) are also readily available through the bearing suppliers. Seals for the shafts are pretty much standard items and some of the seals from the MB box are the same. MIE as I said earlier can provide some gaskets. Those that are unavailable can be cut easily enough from gasket material. Where we run into problems in finding parts is with the S5-20 unique items. Obviously this includes any of the housing items like the rear cover plate and the top shifter mechanism. I have not done any cross checking on the gears or synchros, but know from talking to Michael Egan that he had major problems in locating a servicable, replacement input shaft. As I recall he had a local machine shop build his up and then had it remachined back to spec. Michael wrote an excellent article on his quest to install a ZF in his 280SL. Incidentally, I spoke to Gernold recently and he mentioned that most of the 5 speed ZF's that he has seen originated out of Italy. He said 5 speeds were very popular items with the Italians who were accustomed to buying Alfa Romeo 5 speeds. Hope this additonal info helps
George Des
-
Website for Franz (not Hans) Bucher for the ZF parts in Germany is
http://www.franzbucher.de/
-
WOW! Thanks George. Best amount of info I've gotten. My unit seems fine now, but I enjoy it very much & worry something will happen. I have switched to synthetic ATF (Mobile) as about the only practical preventative available along w/ frequent changes. Thanks again. -JP- 230SL 5 spd ZF (Italian)
-
Hello all,
I have read in the book "Original MB SL" by L. Meredith in the 113 chapter "transmission" that in may 69 the ZF box was dropped and replaced by a 5 speed Mercedes box, code G 76/27-5.
Anyone knows this box? Is there a relation with the Getrag?
On which other MB model(s) can we find this box?
Is it possible to retro-fit one on our cars?
Thanks for all informations.
alain
-
My car was also sold in Itally so it makes sense that most of them went there in the first place.
Daniel G Caron
-
Alain,
according to my BBB, the G76/27-5 was fitted to the 280 S/8, 280 SE/8, 280 SEL/8 and 300 SEL/8 starting in May 1969. It appears to have the shift linkage on the side, unlike the top-shift boxes fitted to the Pagodas. Clutch slave cylinder is on the other side.
George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual
-
Georges, thanks for the info.
According to Meredith this box was also fitted to the Pagoda. Do you know if it is possible (difficult) to retro-fit one on a 4-speed car?
alain
-
My former 250sl ZF5 was also for the Italian market.
1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.
-
Alain,
To swap from a 4-speed manual transmission to a ZF 5-spd, you will need a few other parts in addition to the transmission, including:
front driveshaft (113-410-15-01)
shift tube (113-260-06-82)
shift rod (2 required) (113-260-10-89)
rear bracket (113-242-01-01)
shift knob (111-268-10-42)
Apparently, you can either shorten the driveshaft from your 4-spd transmission or use a driveshaft from an automatic Pagoda.
Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220
-
There's a guy on the Pagoda113 site who says he just fitted a late model Mustang 5 speed in his car. He posted on Jan 3 and hasn't offered any more information. Anyone ever hear of this before?
Ray
'68 280SL 4-spd Coupe
-
I thought Norton was working on a replacement transmission?
1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.
-
quote:
Originally posted by rentsch1961
According to Meredith....
Alain,
This book has been proven to be not 100% accurate. It's not a bad book to use as a reference, just don't take it as a "Pagoda Bible", so to speak. The book most often thought of as the most accurate is "Mercedes-Benz 190 - 280 SL, Vom Barock zur Pagode" by Günter Engelen. It was only published in the German language, so many people around the World would need help reading it.
Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420
-
Norton is working on mustang T5 swap, Looks like it will work, I have a eBay T5 sitting on the work bench. But I'v been working out of town for the last six months or so on my Boss's car, the Pontiac Solstice, (my boss is GM)so I'v had no time for my own 2 seater.
-
Alain,
as Rodd suggests, I think Meredith is wrong about the G76/27-5 ever being fitted to Pagodas. I've "read" (in a rough sort of way) Engelen's book, and recall no mention of any 5-speed other than the ZF box. I have no idea how difficult it would be to fit the G76/27-5, but am surprise no one has tried it yet. I'd suspect that the transmission tunnel would have to be modified to make room for the linkage, but that's just a guess. Maybe that's why MB didn't fit it?
George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual
-
I think Meredith was correct about the side-loader Getrag box being introduced in May of 1969 and was certainly available on 108. 109, 111 and 114 cars, but I don't believe the factory installed it in Pagodas.
I believe Hauser has a Getrag G76.27-5 installed, but I should ask him to confirm.
My question is did the 5-speed become unavailable in the W113 as of May 1969?
Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220
-
I honestly don't know which Getrag is installed on my car. We'll have to wait until I've have the car on a lift. I'll post the numbers and a pic if I don't forget to take the camera.
1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.
-
The offer you mention here is only for the W126 W123 R107 type. I mailed Klaus and asked him about fitting a 5-speed of the R107 into the pagoda but he answered they do not support such action!
Paul Haems
'68 280SL
-
Dan Caron: Can you tell us which trans Hauser has?
Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220
-
I don't know what kind of trans he has - think it has an aluminum case though.
I do know that the 113 only used the ZF 5 speed from all the liturature that I've read. It was installed as an option up to May 1969 and from then on it was only installed as a special request.
I think what this means is that you could buy one with this option as available right off the dealer floor until 1969. Some were built from 1966 until 1969 as regular production - most of which went to Italian dealers. They knew that the cars would sell easily in that market.
After May 1969 you had to order it and wait for the car to be built.
Daniel G Caron
-
Hello,
I have never seen a W113 with the later "side shift rod" 5 speed in it.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
-
Just got off the phone with Jim Rowe of Metric Mechanic. He believes that the transmission in my car is a Getrag model 265. We came to this conclusion based on the fact my car went through a total restoration in 1980 and this Getrag was the only 5 speed available at the time. If you would like to check out their website; www.metricmechanic.com
1969 280sl 5 spd
Gainesville, Fl.
-
I tried to follow up on this "Getrag" business and got nowhwere with it. The local dealer here in Texas did everything in his power to discourage me from buying it, including raising the price to beyond $7,000.00 USD and informing me that there would be no warranty on it if I put it in my 66 230 SL.
Mr.Rau at DaimlerChrysler seemed more than a little annoyed at my inquiries as well.
Mikey
-
I had the same feeling when I mailed Mr Rau. I think we better stop mailing to Mr Rau and all ask him the same questions. Any question regarding the 5-speed can be solved on this forum I think.
Paul Haems
'68 280SL
-
Hi 5-speed Enthusiasts!
For my own car and personally, I don't have any real interest in the 5 speed; my car will never have it. Frankly I love my automatic on my touring car. However clearly it is something of interest to many. Since this mysterious (mysterious because he has not been formally introduced to us and we don't know who he is; only an email address) Mr. Rau seems to be annoyed by these inquiries, I suggest that SOMEBODY who has an active interest contact Tom Hanson. Tom is our friend and will get to the bottom of any questions regarding any Classic Center programs regarding any 5-speeds and will share it with the group.
One thing I miss about the Yahoo forum is the poll section. Since I'm amused by this thread of the 5 speed, (almost as much fun as the one on all red tail lamps) I'd be interested in knowing who prefers what and why.** In other words, is your interest:
1) ONLY in the original ZF 5-speed?
2) In EITHER the ZF or this GETRAG 5-speed?
3) In ANY 5-speed that could be retrofitted to the 113, including things like a domestic (USA) unit?
And would the interest be because of:
1) Rarity, exclusivity and originality?
2) Operation (reduced RPM at highway speed)
3) "Just because".
**my wife used to work in "Mix and Rates" at Ford where they had to calculate and forecast "take rates" for options such as a 5-speed so they could do proper manufacturing and procurement planning. That's why this kind of thing interests me. I was very amused once when Car&Driver suggested Ford had it all wrong when they planned a certain mix of V8/V6 for a certain Mustang...problem was they were production limited in V8 engines and couldn't allocate any more--so Car&Driver's suggestion of high take rates for the V8 were technically impossible.
For those interested in retrofitting ANY 5-speed, why stop at 5? Aren't there some nice 6-speeds available now? I know some Audi's come with them. ZF has one as well, though I don't really know anything about them.
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
-
Glad we amuse you Mike. I have no interest in the ZF box, Between the outrages price for a used trans and limited parts availibillty, it's a loser in my book. I'm only interested in a late model retrofit, I'm looking not only for the overdrive, but also the better gear ratio's of the late model 5 speed, the T5 used in Mustang's has a 3.35 first gear compared to the ultra low 4.05 of the MB 4 speed, as well as a better spread between the gears, for less RPM drop, and with a .68 overdrive it also has a deeper overdrive than the ZF 5 speed. Gear ratio's of the MB, ZF and T5 transmissions
...........................1st....2nd....3rd....4th....5th
MB 4 speed.........4.05...2.23...1.40...1.00
ZF 5 speed..........3.92...2.215..1.418..1.00.0.848
T5.......................3.35..1.93...1.29...1.00..0.68
I think the available 6 speeds are just to big to fit in the trans tunnel of the 113.
-
Mike,
I was day dreaming of the ferrari paddle shift box for the old girl, the problem I saw was turning the V12 around to move it from the centre of the rubbish F40 I have lying on bricks in the back of my shed
Dang there goes another pink elephant flying by......
Malc[:p]
-
quote:
Originally posted by Malc
Mike,
I was day dreaming of the ferrari paddle shift box for the old girl, the problem I saw was turning the V12 around to move it from the centre of the rubbish F40 I have lying on bricks in the back of my shed
Dang there goes another pink elephant flying by......
Malc[:p]
Ahh, forget 5 and 6 speeds...why not go with a CV :D
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
-
Hello,
- Georges Des, where can we read Michael Egan's article on the ZF box?
- Is there some specific documentation about the ZF box such as a parts manual or on MB technical sheet?
Where to find that? Thanks.
alain
-
I actually have a repair manual for the ZF 5 speed. It's a copy ( and probably a translated one ) but it covers enough things that you can more or less figure out how t get it apart and then back together.
I can tell you this, it's not easy and I'd never try it without a maual. These are very durable units and will last forever if cared for properly. They only hold about 1 liter of trans fluid so I use a synthetic. Nothing inside of this box is like a regular 4 speed which is pretty basic by comparison.
Daniel G Caron
-
Michael Egan had articles in Issue #2 (March 1992) and Issue #8 (May 1994)of Mercedes Collector pertaining to the ZF 5-speed. The first article was on details of the transmission itself and the second was on fitting it to his 280SL.
- Mike Hughes -ô¿ô-
1966 230SL Auto P/S
Havanna Brown (408)
Light Beige (181)
Cream M-B Tex (121)
-
Here we go again with Mr. Rau. Please, nobody ask Mr. Rau about the "special" at Mercedes, questions seem to put him in a bad mood.
Can a friendly group member please tell me about the Getrag and how I might get one that the dealer won't try to talk me out of or raise the price to 7K and cancel the warranty?
Mikey
-
Alain,
I have a copy of the article that Michael Egan wrote on the ZF 5 Speed. He also gave me a copy of the parts list for it. I was also able to get a new repair manual reprint from MIE, a Maserati Dealership in Portland,Oregon, USA. Their website is at the following URL: <http://maseratinet.com/SPARE_PARTS/Transmission.asp>
The manual covers both the ZF S5-20 box used in the 113s and the variant used in the Maserati. The main differences are in the rear cover plate and linkages to the gear shift lever. The S5-20 used in the 113 is synchromeshed in all gears including reverse! The Maserati variant as far as I can tell is not synchroed in reverse so the gear set up is also slightly different. I suspect this is the same manual that Dr Benz has. If I can figure out how to scan Michael's article into a PDF file, I'll send it along to you.
George Des
-
Georges,
Thank you very much for the infos. I have ordered the ZF repair manual from MIE right now.
Do you have a fax? If yes, it would pehaps be easier for you to fax me the article, but I can open PDF files too.
My Nr is: (++41) 22.789.71.39
Thanks again.
alain
-
Alain,
Send me your e-mail and I will try to figure out how to attach a file to my return e-mail to you--my e-mail is <barbgeo@aol.com>
George Des
-
The 5-speed trans listed at the start of this thread will not fit a W113. The one that will is out there somewhere for big money.
Tom Hanson in CA
-
All the info I have came from Mr. Eagan. At the time I found several people who had the repair manuals but didn't have time to copy a set and send them to me. I called him and it showed up in the mail a few days later.
The main difference between nice guys and the others.........
Daniel G Caron
-
The 5 speed fitted to Hauser's car is, I believe, a Getrag unit possibly from a 3 series BMW. An adapter was custom-made for this conversion which I am told performs very well indeed. However it is not the least expensive way to go, by any means.
The vintage 5speeds were made in small numbers as we all know and are very hard to find. If you MUST have a 5 speed it would probably be easier to do the R&D work to develop an adapter and kit to put a later, easily available MB or BMW 5speed into a 113 car. You could probably sell enough of these kits to finance your own conversion and put a few bucks in your pocket besides...however, I opted for the easy way out and bought a 3.23 axle for my 113 car. Which we are supposed to road test this week if it will ever stop snowing. [:(!]
Fitting a taller rear axle set doesn't address the problem of the fact that the 4 speeds gear ratios are too far apart by modern standards. If I were putting in a modern 5 speed, and a T5 or something similar would fit, I'd use that. But there's not a lot of room in the tunnel and engineering all this would be very expensive and timeconsuming. I'm hoping the axle conversion will make the car a little longer-legged, and that the acceleration won't suffer too much.