Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: john.mancini on June 25, 2015, 02:26:29
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15 years ago I put 4 new Conti tires on my 69 280SL. I drive my Pagoda only about 300 miles a year. Every year I inspect the tires, and they still look and feel brand new. Can radial tires that have been kept at ideal conditions last this long and still be safe?
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In a simple answer, No.
Unless you have kept the car in a dark room for the whole time and even then they will have passed their shelf life at around ten years under the ideal conditions. Seven years is the norm.
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Garry,
Where do you get your information from?
The tyre companies will tell you anything to get the business.
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For a start, search around on the forum here and you will find lots on tyres but I also had some dealings in aircraft tyres on handling and storage and preservation whilst in the Royal Australian Air Force and discussion turned to Motor cars and the use of tyres and storage and the importance of always checking the date of manufacture on a tyre when buying as sometimes you will get tyres that have been on the shelf for two or more years and the consensus is 7 - 8 years from manufacture is the safe life of a tire either on a car on an aircraft where they are returned for re treading and they are rigorously tested before re treading and only have so many recovers and so many years which ever comes first.
I think if you do a search on Google on life of tyres you will also get some information.
Here is a sample
The U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) and tire manufacturers are currently studying the many variables. Exposure to the elements (sun and atmospheric), regularity of use (frequent or only occasional) and the quality of care (maintaining proper inflation pressure, wheel alignment, etc.) will all influence the answer. So while tire life depends on the service conditions and the environment in which they operate, the difficult task remains how to identify all of the variables that influence a tire's calendar age and attempt to quantify their influence.
The current industry association recommendations regarding inspecting and replacing tires due to age originate outside the United States.
The British Rubber Manufacturers Association (BRMA) recommended practice, issued June, 2001, states, "BRMA members strongly recommend that unused tyres should not be put into service if they are over six years old and that all tyres should be replaced ten years from the date of their manufacture."
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=138
Here is another good read on the subject
http://www.edmunds.com/car-care/how-old-and-dangerous-are-your-tires.html
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I quite often drive old cars with outdated tyres and when braking in the wet it is immediately obvious that the tyre are old and hard (age hardening is why they need to be replaced).
It is even noticeable in the dry if driving a 500SL because they become quite spin-happy. ;D
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My Porsche had tyres of unknown age on it and I very easily lost grip on all four corners on roundabouts. in the dry
New tyres made it much better (only lost the back end ;) )
They are your grip in corners and when braking. For the cost - even cheapies - it's cheap insurance for your car/life
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I had a pair of 15-year-old Uniroyals on mine that I changed recently. In the rain, it was like driving on ice. The wheels would lock up with even mild braking. I think that old tires can fail in a number of ways; it's not just tire industry propaganda. As a few have said before, it's not worth the risk.
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Here we do go again. I use 10 years as my rule. My Pagoda and '73 Chevrolet are garaged (in the dark) and the tires are pretty well maintained and regularly used. But they will never wear out due to mileage, only age. 10 years for me. I've seen way too many trailers and caravans on the side of the road with a blow-out / flat tire, I speculate because they get much less wear than their pulling cars so "look new" yet are way past their service life. Dangerous! When I got my car in the first few months I was driving on the highway when I heard a loud noise and the car started to vibrate. Stopped on the shoulder and found a large patch of tread had spun off of the 'still in fine condition plenty of profile depth left Michelin whitewall' front tire.
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Just had an appraiser over at the house this afternoon looking at a '60 Beetle my wife is going to drive. The car was restored about 12 years ago and has maybe 500 km on the tires. They still look new. When he saw them he told me to make sure I put new tires on. He said anything older than about 7 years should be replaced. He was telling me it was not just the sun but air itself reacts with the rubber. Don't know how true it is but thought I would pass it along as the topic came up again.
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I had the opportunity to work closely on leadership and management issues with the heads of R&D at Michelin both in the USA and in France. As lunch-time conversation got around my driving vintage cars and the difficulty of sometimes finding tires for these cars, they all said to me that even in Michelin's own warehouses, tires go old. The volatile compounds in the rubber evaporate and tires loose their characteristics. I should not drive on tires older than 7 years is what they told me. Now, I know many people drive on tires older than that. It does not mean it' safe.... You will find online how to read dates on tires.
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Most tire companies recommend that tires be retired, regardless of mileage, between 6 - 10 years from the date of manufacture. I am at the 10 year point with my 5,000 mile Continentals on my 69 280SL. They still look and feel absolutely brand new. I know it's time to replace them, but has anyone out there really pushed the limit on tires? How long? Curious.
John
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The ride quality is drastically damaged with older tires, they become hard and the ride and handling suffer. Put on new tires and one can immediately tell the difference in the ride, no longer harsh. Plus they are not safe once hardened up after about 7 years as most have advised.
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Tires are cheap....dump em and buy new ones. If you are going to skimp, oil your brakes too. Then you can decrease your safety margin even more!
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I checked my tyres (sorry Tires!) and noted the stamped manufacture date of 08/04, meaning they are more than 11 years old.
I found the original receipt (kept by previous owner) from the Tire Shop (26 October 2004) that fitted them that also indicated mileage of 127,633. My car now 131,200; meaning although they are 11 years old they have only travelled 3,600 miles since fitted.
After reading all the comments below I decided to change them and at the same time change to whitewalls.
After much research there seem to be only 2 or 3 brands available. I went with Sumitomo 195/75 a mid priced tyre (from a very small selection!)
After fitting today I went for a drive - wow - the difference in the ride quality is amazing, no screeching when cornering with some power and an overall much smoother ride, no jarring that seemed to occur with the old set.
I discussed tire life with the owner of the tire shop, with more than 30 years in the business. He was absolutely adamant that tires have a 6 -7 year life and that all sorts of degeneration starts after 6 years.
He also said that, assuming mileage is not a factor, for older cars like ours he would even consider changing after 5 years because as the suspension systems on ours are not as sophisticated as modern cars, the tires may be a relatively more important component of the road adhesion and control processes than more modern cars.
Also - I like the change to whitewall.
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Hi Mark,
Your new tires look fantastic! Well done!
Dieter
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Hi mark:
Yes the whitewalls are correct. Even though some people might disagree.
When I picked up my 72 220D in Stuttgart in 1972, it came with slim whitewalls.
Also if you look at some of the picture from that time , especially M/B they had the slim whitewalls on the cars.
Tom M
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There are many things that degrade tire rubber - sun, ozone (yes even in the dark), heat (internal) and grease/oil/cheap shine products. The less they are exposed the better. But even still they will degrade and nothing will stop that. Properties will tend to degrade very rapidly as you approach the end of the tire's useful life more so than at the beginning. Most tire companies I know will NOT service a tire that is more than 10 years old.
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ordered my 5 Uniroyal tiger paws today. I got one for the spare in case something happens to one of them and the company stops making them in a few years. Buds Benz uses these on their vehicles. The Hankook tires have a slimmer profile and don't look as good. The size I ordered is 185 70 r 14
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I also ordered a set of five Unioyal 185/70 14R today (after being in communication with Mike) and once I found out that the Hankook my dealer ordered (195/75 R14 are too big). As Mike mentioned soon we will be out of luck finding 14 inch white wall tires for our car.
Yesterday my dealer called to let me know the Hankook tires arrived (snapped a photo of my car at the shop). As he compared the Hankook 195/75 R14 against my now Michelin 185/70 R14 it was clear to us that the Hankook tire was way too big.
My Michelin tires were made in 2000 (as I found out yesterday) they look like new, however, time has come to recycle them. One of the fellows at the tire shop said to me if the tread is good they last 20 years ... Goes to show you how many different opinions are out there on tire life. I guess mine have last this long since a) they have seen less then 10,000 miles and b) the previous owner and his wife (at two different locations) had this car stored in a heated and air conditioned garage. The last owner (her husband) even has his cottage garage air conditioned and heated since his 50s and 60s American car collection (18 all together) get parked there from time to time during the summer months. Must be nice to have that kind of money and take a different old timer car to the cottage each weekend :)
Anyway, glad to have found some tires ... Thanks Mike!
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I will personally show the installer where to place the jacks. These guys don't know our cars. They have been known to use the car lifts and put the lift supports right on the floor pans, which could possibly rip a foot hole in them . I have them use a floor jack and put the jack under each subframe rail. I even have a small dent in one of those, from where someone over the years lifted the car wrong, putting a crease in one of those. I think I will take a one foot by one foot piece of plywood or hardwood to put between the jack and the lift point. For the rear I guess they can put a jack under the rear end housing. I have learned by mistakes people have made, not being anal. Joe Alexander mentioned to me, he has seen many sub frames rails with dents. Easy to do on our cars. Do you guys agree? Where is the best jack point for the rear???
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Mike, You will of course do no harm in keeping a close eye on how they lift your car, however, I would think that the tire shop would be knowladgeble in finding the right support points for the lift. I took some pictures when I was last at the Benz Barn and the two attached photos show the lift and the rear support. The bottom photo is not too clear since I took photos of my control arm bushings, however if you look closely at the bottom of the second photo the lift point for the rear is just at the main point of the control arm.
Hope this helps.
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http://www.amazon.com/Uniroyal-04910-Tiger-P185-70R14/dp/B0081ZBHX0 -my uniroyal dealer had to order them and shipping I had to pay was $12.00 per tire. Balance , mounting , and shipping came to only $83.00 per tire total.. Amazon.com says this size does not fit our cars. They would be incorrect. I included that webpage to show what the tires like. I did not purchase mine from Amazon.
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Some years ago, a guy brought a 190SL to me from Detroit. It had a set of bias ply tires on it that had all gone flat from 15 years of storage and they had probably been on the car for 25 years. Once I had the engine running properly, I called him to ask about new tires. He had driven the car to my place with those old tires :o but I didn't want to even think about driving it on the road becuse when I did drive it around my yard it shook so badly I could barely hold on to the steering wheel.
I guess he wanted me to test drive it that way because he wouldn't spring for new rubber. I keep a set of rims with tires around here for such occasions and I put them on instead. Of course it was like night and day, and even though they're well past normal service life, they're still 100 times safer than what he was using.
He picked the car up, drove it back to Detroit with those skanky old tires on it and aparently he made it home. ??? I made him sign a waiver absolving me of any liability if he had an accident. He never came back and I'm not sorry about that either.
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Dan, I was shocked when I learned this week that my tires (you saw them first hand several times) are actually 15 years old. As you know they do look like brand new, still age can be blind and hide the danger. I will certainly feel safer driving to PUB in September on new rubber.
I'm thinking back to 2013 driving to Williamsburg and back home on those tires at speeds of 70 and sometimes even faster on express ways I should have looked into new rubber before that trip. Live and learn I guess, at the time the good looks of my tires fooled me is all I can say in retrospect ;)
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Would you folks explain why you chose to buy smaller tires than what these cars came with? According to the Tech Manual and Coker Tires (makers or the repro phoenix), these cars came with 185-75-14 and both of you stated that you ordered a smaller size - 185-70-14. Would appreciate if you can explain your reasoning for choosing the smaller tires. .
Hi Kampala,
I was wondering the same thing myself.
I can only think of these reasons for buying smaller than original tire size tires for a pagoda.
You want to increase the revs on highway driving. Increase fuelconsumption. Slightly better acceleration possibly.
You like the look of smaller tires. And they might be cheaper.
The original full profile 185 14 tires I believe are very close to the currently available 185/80-14 in size.
Which is what I prefer myself.
Hans
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I use Michelin 185 HR 14 MXV-P, they are expensive, but have the outside rubbing strip, and the speedometer is totally accurate with respect to the sat nav, so I assume they must be a good match for the originals.
I would concider the Vredestein option in future at half the price, but are they an equal match ?
Keep well
Paul
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It's what I have had on my car for the 30 years I have owned it, and it is the size that most recommend. There are 4 different tire sizes that will fit our cars, but this size seems to be what most have.
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I believe the size 185 70 R14 to be correct for my vehicle
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I have no idea where the chart you showed came from. I do know the whitewall tires on the US version were a different size than the European cars. All of the information I have read says the tires should be 185-14. As far as 185-70r 14 or 185 85-14, I have no idea. Buds Benz uses 185 70R14, and that seems fine with me. I would not want my tires any larger. They fit my car well, and with the whitewalls, they look great. My car "pops" with the whitewalls. whitewalls have limited sizes, that are being manufactured today. You can buy a blackwall in almost any size. To each is own, but I do not think my tire size is incorrect.
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This from the technical manual:
The standard Pagoda Tire Size is a 185x14 tire. When these tires were originally made there were no variations on the Aspect Ratio (see Tires for an explanation). In those days all tires had the same sidewall height to tread width ratio, 80 for European tires and 78 for US sourced tires. Someone measured an original Continental 185SR14 and measured its rolling circumference as 2040mm or an aspect ratio of 79 3/4". Choosing a correct tire size will ensure that the speedometer and odometer on the car are accurate.
So now I need to see what my Vredestein Clasics have as aspect ratio. Hope it's close to 80.
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It took some searching, but the one reference I was able to find on aspect ratio of the Vredestein Classic Sprint 185 hr 14 was that it does have an 80 aspect ratio.
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The Vredesteins are indeed 80 aspect and 185/14 is the only correct tyre size for 113.
It is true that many are shod with 70 aspect tyres but this is largely due to price and availability.
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I recently went to whitewalls and wanted 195's rather than 185's.
I was able to get 195/14/75, which I think look quite OK.
I looked at the 195/14/80 and I thought they looked a little "too big", so 75 was a nice comprise.
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Hello Oz,
I like the tire size that is now on my car it is 185/70 14R they are Michelin White Walls and look just right on my car. When I inittially went to one of the largest tire dealers here in town the manager confirmed the year made and told me the tires are no longer made (I knew this only was shocked that my tires are 15 years old).
I gave him the size that Bud's Benz put on a 280 SL a short while ago Hancock 195/75 14R and he ordered them for me. When they arrived we compared them against the ones now on my car. They looked much too big to us so we send them back. When you compare them un-infladed and not mounted they do look big. Perhaps they would have been okay once mounted, however, I decided to get the 185/70 14R since I like the look of my car with that size of tire. 4 of my 5 Uniroyal tiger tires are in town, just waiting for the 5th one to arrive then I will have them mounted.
I cannot believe I drove to Williamsburg, Virginia two years ago on the then 13 year old tires on US Interstate Highways trying to follow Alex and sometimes the Red Rocket at speeds over 70 MPH. I know I will feel safer traveling to PUB 2015 :)
Oz, I think the choice of type and tire size is basically a personal choice, I know my speedometer is slightly off and that is okay, then I have a good GPS that tells me posted speed limits and gives me the exact MPH or Km/PH I am driving. After a while one knows what speed one goes by just keeping an eye on the RPM readout :)
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A Question ?
Surely if one fits a 70 or 75 Aspect ratio tyre, as opposed to the 80,
then not only will the Speedometer become inaccurate, but also the odometer, and hence any fuel mileage calculations.
Could this be why there are often very different mpg figures calculated by different members.
just a thought
Paul
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Paul,
as described in the Technical Manual (http://www.sl113.org/wiki/WheelsTires/TireSize) the spped difference between the original 185R14 with its aspect ratio of 80 and the 195-75-14 tire is negligible, less than the accuracy of the speedometer!
Here are the calculations:
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I put new tires on my car 4 years ago, soon they won't be new!
but very few miles on them...
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Alfred,
I like the chart,
is it available for the 185/70/14 , 195/80/14 mention in this thread.
Thanks
Paul
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Paul,
did you miss reply #24 posted by Kampala?
Also you can make your own here: http://tire-size-conversion.com/tire-size-comparison/
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Thanks for the chart link Alfred! Great information.
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Thanks ,Alfred for the chart,
very useful for any future choices
Keep well
paul
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In Dubai it is mandatory to change tires after 5 years due to the extreme weather conditions and high road speed. Good safety measure.
Nirmal
Dubai
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Yesterday I had my new Uniroyal white wall tiger paw tires installed, including the spare. The side is 185 / 70R 14 (same size I had on the car). I never I'm my life removed tires from a car that still looked like new tires (my former Michelin All Season white wall), however, they had to go after a 15 year life they have done there duty
The drive home was fantastic and nice and smooth. I even got two (2) thumbs up during my short 12 KM drive home, not sure if it was for the tires or the car ~grin~
I will feel a lot safer driving to PUB 2015 :)
5 tires, mounting and balancing I paid $620.09 Canadian ($474.51 US) or $124.02 CDN / $94.90 US for each
EDIT; added my cost …. Mike how does it compare what you paid for it?
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Bet it might even have been cheaper if they did not have to install the tires upside down.....!
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why bother with the spare?
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rolf, mine run smooth also. What a difference. mine came in at $460.00 for all 5 balanced and mounted
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thelews good idea for the spare in case in a few years you blow out a tire and they stop making that tire, you will have another
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Bet it might even have been cheaper if they did not have to install the tires upside down.....!
Jonny, I did not mind paying extra for that the mechanic was quite talented he did a super job cleaning the white walls (in the past .... Years ago all you had to do is whipe the blue stuff off, now you have to soack it for 20 minutes or so and still it is a hell of a job to clean up. He got a nice tip for his upsidedown talents and cleaning effort. :) ;) :)
thelews, I prefer to know that I have a line of defense ... The spare serves that purpose, my car is driven and not a garage queen as they say. Even my Golden Retriever gets to ride in it and she loves it.
Mike, yes the drive is like night and day if you compare it before and after ...
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Rolf, my Uniroyal tire shop didn't have a brush that could get that blue stuff off. It was like paint. I scrubbed an hour on those tires, trying to get that stuff off. I wanted to call Uniroyal to complain, but spent the effort scrubbing more.