Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Drive train, fuel, suspension, steering & brakes => Topic started by: rwmastel on June 23, 2015, 20:14:57
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Hello Pagoda Enthusiasts!
I've finally, after about five or six years, decided to start working on my Pagoda. What prompted me now? My first real pains of not having a running Pagoda was when you guys organized such a great event in Williamsburg, VA. My wife and I attended, but I had to drive my 2006 C230. So, it's been eating at me more and more since then.
I call this a "Mechanical Restoration Thread" because my goal is to make my SL a dependable driver for attending Club events. I don't plan on doing any paint, chrome, interior, or any other cosmetics. I just want to hop in and go join my Pagoda Pals at whatever event I have time to attend.
My immediate goal is to have enough work done as necessary to get the SL in a large local car show where, in July 2016, Mercedes-Benz will be an honored marquee. I've got a 12-month countdown clock! (http://www.arthritisautoshow.com)
My long term goal (2 or 3 years, if necessary) is to have gone through all the mechanicals so I can drive it to car events far and wide. For example, the MBCA has organized a few "Circle Tours" where the club drives around one of the Great Lakes. This year, they're driving as a group from Chicago to Key West. You get the idea.
The process has officially begun. I'm buying a few parts recently posted on our For Sale forum. I've converted the 230SL from a storage shelf back to a car. (It's amazing what a person can stack on that thing!) I'm ready to take the hood off and get the cylinder head off to examine the extent of engine work needed. I'll share all my progress with everyone, post all my questions here, and let everyone know how I overcame all the hurdles. I'm not even officially a shade-tree mechanic, but like everything I did with this car from 2000 - 2004 when most of the repairs were done, I'm willing to take this on and learn.
So, wish me luck and send me all your 230SL parts! ;)
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Rodd,
Congrats on your impending project. Can't wait to see it on the road.
See ya round the hood.
Mike Mizesko
Columbus, OH
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Good luck Rodd.
And for those who don't know him that well, Rodd is the person who is responsible for starting our club ...
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When I saw you at PUB 2011 it was running. What problem did you have that took it off the road? My car is pretty much in the same condition you saw it last but still has a few leaks and bushing to replace. Depending on what I see you do I may get into repairing a few of the nuisance problems.. I just hate to have my car disabled while I'm working on something that could make it not drivable for a while...
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Rob, Welcome Back!! It's been a while since you've been on the site. Please stay for a while. We've missed you!
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Rob, Welcome Back!! It's been a while since you've been on the site. Please stay for a while. We've missed you!
Hauser,
I've missed being on the site. Maybe with this work ahead of me, and all the problems I'll have to overcome, I'll surpass Cees' number of posts!
Rodd,
Congrats on your impending project. Can't wait to see it on the road.
See ya round the hood.
Mike Mizesko
Columbus, OH
Thanks Mike!
Good luck Rodd.
And for those who don't know him that well, Rodd is the person who is responsible for starting our club ...
Cees,
You know I can't take all the credit. It was a group of us that were all interested in knowing more about these crazy cars and decided to meet together in person and then start an on-line presence.
When I saw you at PUB 2011 it was running. What problem did you have that took it off the road?
Brad,
I was thinking it was 2009, but I don't keep track of dates very well. Regardless, the last time it was at a PUB it was running ............ on 5 cylinders! That was when Joe performed the diagnosis that an exhaust valve had failed. So, when I get the head off it will be interesting to see what has really happened in there.
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Hey Rodd, glad to see you back in the game. I give you credit for not doing the unthinkable as soon as your car morphed into a storage shelf. Many have dealt their cars away at this point, and about the same amount have regretted it.
I see a couple things hugely in your favor. First you know about all the information that has been amassed here since the early days. Second, you are in Ohio and I know you know Joe (and many others). I would think this is a wonderful backdrop as you begin. I think you will be able to do plenty yourself -- but using the experts is also very wise.
I gotta say, your goal of driving to events far and wide is ambitious and admirable. And doable. However, I would always use a little discretion (a coast to coast rally might be pushing it for any 50 year old car!) Even when they are running wonderfully, things crop up to humble you (like crackly shift bushings..)
Some where on here, Dr Benz I think listed the basic litany of things needed for mechanical nirvana. I know I turned mine from a fairly frustrating temperamental Sunday driver to a veritable daily driver going on 12 years now? But then you already know this -- you were there! and helped me a lot!!
Thanks and good luck!
James
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Nice car Rodd. Italian provenance in a beautiful colour!
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I got the hood off tonight by myself with no damage. Time to start taking pictures for documentation, then start taking things apart.
James,
I've always been inspired by the convoys that come to PUB from far and wide. When I went to the P50 in Williamsburg I convoyed with guys from Canada who headed through Ohio, WV, and VA. These are the kinds of trips I would love to be a part of in the future. We'll see how it goes!
JP,
Yes, it is Italian. Original owner was Carlo Riva.
http://www.rivahistorical.org/vivariva.asp?mid=0&uid=0&iid=225
http://www.riva-yacht.com/en-us/riva/history.aspx
Earliest known photo of MY CAR is on page 5 of this article. Below the office where Carlo is leaning out the window, it is behind the gas pumps.
http://www.rivagb.com/legend/history/pdf/wooden_boat_1993.pdf
It was repainted in a near-original color, probably when it was imported to USA and sold. It's all numbers matching and doesn't appear to have had any serious body damage or rust, but who knows for sure because it was repainted.
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Hi Rod,
Just a little historical note here. I remember you and your car from PUB 2009. My memory is that at that time your car was running on five cylinders.
Regards, see you at PUB 2015 - -
Larry in CA
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Update: I've been able to spend 30 to 90 minutes at a time in the garage a few days a week. I've made some progress and I now have one question before I move further. The first picture simply shows how far I've progressed. In the second picture I am showing the forward-most part of the exhaust manifold, near the thermostat. At the bolt, is the gap between the two parts normal or is it a cracked manifold?
Thanks!
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Looks normal Rodd, left is the exhaust manifold, right is the timing chain tensioner, they are separate bits of kit.
Good luck with it all, the head on my 220seb is in the exact same state at the moment, hoping to have the head off tonight - another shed session in the cold!! damn I hate winter....
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One tip: Put caps on the fuel injection pipe fittings, on top of FI pump as well as on the individual injector nozzles in the head. You don't want debris to enter in there!
/Hans in Sweden
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Looks normal Rodd, left is the exhaust manifold, right is the timing chain tensioner, they are separate bits of kit.
Whew! That's good to know.
One tip: Put caps on the fuel injection pipe fittings, on top of FI pump as well as on the individual injector nozzles in the head. You don't want debris to enter in there!
Excellent tip, Hans! Are there caps made for this, or do I just find some random rubber part at the hardware store to do the job?
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.../... Are there caps made for this, or do I just find some random rubber part at the hardware store to do the job?
Bosch has tailor made caps of course, see pic attached.
But, just go ahead and use any plastic or rubber cap that fits
/Hans in Sweden
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Looks normal Rodd, left is the exhaust manifold, right is the timing chain tensioner, they are separate bits of kit.
If the manifolds are OK and I can continue dismantling the engine, then how do I go about disconnecting the exhaust from the head? I don't intend to keep much of the exhaust. The exhaust manifolds will stay for sure (I gather they are very expensive to replace on a 230SL). The all the pipes will be evaluated, but I assume they will be rusty. I have blocks of wood supporting the exhaust just rear of the down pipes and I believe all the rubber hangers are good. Should I just pull the exhaust manifolds away from the head with all exhaust connected and then drop the whole system down to the floor in a controlled manner? Should I disconnect the down pipes from the manifolds? Should I disconnect the straight pipes from the down pipes? Just don't know the best way to proceed at this point.
Thanks in advance for your advice!
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Exhaust:
You write of "disconnecting".
Oftentimes, the parts certainly are quite stuck together... Rust penetrant may be a help, but next step is to cut the old exhaust pipes with grinding wheel or saw.
From factory, the exhaust system was welded in its full length, no joints that could be separated. Yes a joint was present between manifold and downpipe. PO's may have altered this on any given vehicle, of course.
Well, let us hope the exhaust system on your car comes apart nicely :)
/Hans in Sweden
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Hans,
You described the problems I'll face, but not the solutions! ;D
The exhaust manifolds are already loose at the head bolts because they share bolts with the intake manifold, which is now on the garage floor. So it seems I have two possible routes here:
1. Attach the exhaust manifolds back to the head to keep them in place, cut the individual down pipes off, drop the pipes & muffler to the floor, then carefully remove each exhaust manifold using some method to not drop them on the floor and create an expensive disaster.
2. Lower the whole unit away from the cylinder head and down to the floor, jack the car up some to get the whole arrangement out of the engine bay, and then cut the down pipes.
If there is a better way, please let me know. I've never done this before.
Thanks!
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Hello,
Good to see you getting after this!!
It's a long time ago, but when I got my '66 the PO left it outside for years. The exhaust donuts had disintegrated and the pipes were dragging on the ground. When I pulled my exhaust manifolds, I used the exhaust pipe as a giant lever arm (hopefully your exhaust pipes are not completely corroded). Holding the pipes at the back of the car, I moved them back and forth with a bit of gusto and broke the manifolds free pretty quickly - no damage to the pipes and none to the manifold (pipes had to be replaced anyway). Worth a few minutes to try, and could avoid a lot of cutting and fussing.
Regards -- Roger
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.... and broke the manifolds free pretty quickly ....
Hi. Broke the manifolds free from the cylinder head or from the down pipes? On my car, the manifolds are loose from the head. I'm amazed at how well everything disconnects (so far - knock on wood!). I just don't know what to do next.
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After some more searching, I found that many people put the manifold tightly back on the head, remove all the nuts & bolts on the flanges, remove all rubber doughnut hangers, then use the tail pipe as leverage to twist the downpipes out of the exhaust manifolds. I would think this would be risky in that the exhaust manifold may crack.
Another hint I read was to just leave the exhaust where it is, supported by rubber doughnuts and wood blocks, and remove the head by sliding it sideways, away from the exhaust. I'll see if I currently have clearance for that.
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Another hint I read was to just leave the exhaust where it is, supported by rubber doughnuts and wood blocks, and remove the head by sliding it sideways, away from the exhaust. I'll see if I currently have clearance for that
There are two locating dowels on the block, so the head has to be lifted up 10 to 15 mm before it will slide left to clear the manifold studs.
I stuck a couple of paint mixing 'stirrers' between head and block to clear the dowels.
Besides the 14 (10mm allen key) main bolts holding the head to block, there are 4 more (6mm allen key) bolts on the front of the head (3 of them internal)
naj
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Hi,
Released (rather than broke) the downpipes from the exhaust manifold.
Regards -- Roger
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Rodd,
when you go to remove the head bolts remember there is a small allen bolt that is hidden in a pool of oil on the passenger side of the timing chain area. Trying to pry the head off without removing that bolt could be bad.
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Hello Friends! I'm reviving my ancient discussion thread.
In spring of 2015, I sold my C230 and spent the summer using my 450SL as a daily driver while searching for a Jeep Wrangler. I found one in the fall, and that became my daily driver.
Also, in the summer of 2015, shortly after starting this work on the Pagoda, my wife and I decided we wanted to move, so we started searching for land on which to build our "forever home". We found the land in the fall, 1.5 acre wooded plot in a small neighborhood about 1 hour from our current home, and much closer to family. We searched for and found a custom builder, made plans, broke ground in April 2016, and moved into the house in December.
The mechanical restoration took a back seat to all this. Actually, the Pagoda was stored at a friend's home until summer 2017. Since the move, the garage was never really organized and planned out, so maintenance on the Jeep, 450SL, and now also the E300D, has been inefficient and frustrating to perform, but successful.
Unfortunately, my father passed away this fall, but a lifetime of hard work and smart decisions have left my brother and I an inheritance and I'm going to use some of that to get the garage squared away and get this old Pagoda back on the road.
My goals listed in the beginning of this thread remain the same. Updates from me to this thread may be slow this winter as cleaning and organizing the garage isn't exciting. I will be buying some solution for tool storage, cabinets, and work bench. I will probably be buying a lift at some point, and I'll be selling the 450SL to make space and eliminate it's needs from my todo list.
So, hopefully there will be steady progress over time and the car will be on the road some time in 2021.
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Rodd... I am sorry to hear about your father! There’s nothing like our parents that’s for sure! But it was my mothers passing and receiving inheritance that afforded me the luxury of getting my 280SE3.5 Cabriolet I think our parents would always want us to have a little enjoyment with the money they left us! I always appreciated you, as when I first joined the site in 2006 you were quite helpful when I first got my 250SL. It’s been years… And I’m still chipping away at projects on her. So all the best with your conquest! I’m sure you’ll have a lot of fun along the way! JP
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Hi Rodd.
Sorry to hear about your Dad :(
I would love to be of help if I can.
I just did a similar project like yours my 1966 230SL Havana Brown 4 speed. I did do alot of cosmetic restoration and detailing as well as make her a solid running driving car.
see:
restoration file
https://goo.gl/photos/7BMqpgfdfcDoSQJT8
condensed picture file:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/xMaxKmZg3u6ZJ2MNA
I would love to see more pictures of your car! I love the color combinations.
All the Best!
Peter
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Rod,
Sorry news about your dad, but like JP, it was my mother’s passing in 2003 and a small inheritance from her estate that i purchased my Pagoda as her legacy and started the passion and my association with the Pagoda Group back when.
It will be good to see another project evolve on the Forum.
Garry
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Mit Stil ...
Good luck on the re-comissioning, I am sure you will get it done soon. Wish I could help in-person!
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Rodd, sorry to hear about your Dad, there seems to be many of these cars that belonged to our fathers. Mine as well. It is also the only reason I am sure that many of us keep our cars and put up with all the issues we do as we are somehow "making good" to our dearly departed.
I love that colour combination of your car. Best of luck and keep us informed - pictures of the garage is always fun.
My wife is starting to talk about moving into a "forever home" for our retirement. She must have a rich boyfriend because what she wants and what we can afford in retirement are miles apart. I told her I just want a bigger garage than we currently have with a bathroom close by.
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This is great news and wishing you all the best.
I am reminded that when we first met on the Yahoo! Forums, and after carefully dropping our guard and revealing our locations, I figured out that you were in Columbus, as was Joe Alexander. Pete Lesler was in Cleveland, and I in Detroit. Before the idea of PUB was offered by Joe, I suggested we all meet somewhere a relatively easy drive for all of us. I suggested Findlay, OH...and at that time, even THAT was too far for you to feel comfortable driving safely. I think that was 2001. Your car is now approaching 20 years older!
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I am reminded that when we first met on the Yahoo! Forums...
And eGroups before that, and simple email threads even before that!
I suggested Findlay, OH...and at that time, even THAT was too far for you to feel comfortable driving safely.
The car was still new to me, I hadn't repaired much of anything, and I was NOT used to the lack of seatbelts! All that will be different by the time it will be driven again. Maybe it will make an appearance in your new driveway some day! :)
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... pictures of the garage is always fun.
OK, Ian. You asked for it! Here's the ugly truth that is my garage. I recorded it this morning. It's 4 years of no organization and outright neglect. All to be rectified over the next few months. (I'm new to YouTube, so I hope the link and video work.)
https://youtu.be/K01p87SCkm8
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Nothing some good overhead shelving and cabinetry can't fix.
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Nice, Rodd. I wish I had more garages too.
nice property though.
Mike