Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Drive train, fuel, suspension, steering & brakes => Topic started by: ctaylor738 on June 19, 2015, 01:26:37
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My phone rang on Sunday afternoon. It was a familiar number, the attractive Asian woman with the Euro 280SL. I momentarily debated letting it go to voice mail, but like a fly drawn to the spider’s web, I answered.
“My car has been running badly and is almost impossible to start. I’ve been getting jump starts all day. I barely made it to your driveway,” she said after a brief exchange of pleasantries.
I replied, “OK, you know the drill. Open the garage door with the code, leave the car, close it on your way out.”
Her response, a note of anxiety creeping into her voice. “It totally won’t start now. The battery is dead. I am late. I need to go. Please, just take care of it.”
Rain was threatening, so I cut short our bike ride to return to the garage. The wife was not pleased. There it sat, top down, on the slope of the driveway. As the rain clouds gathered, I tried a start, only to get a groan and then a click from the starter. Quickly, I fetched the garage battery and jumper cables, and connected them. I turned the ignition on and heard the fuel pump run. The engine turned over eagerly but refused to fire. The first raindrops began to fall. I grabbed the timing light, connected it, and cranked the starter. It flashed. There was spark. I floored gas pedal and cranked and cranked. The engine fired briefly, but I could not keep it going. More raindrops. I grabbed some tools and pulled #5 spark plug. Bone dry and white as the driven snow. More raindrops. I hastily re-installed the spark plug and cranked the starter again. After and eternity of maybe fifteen seconds, a cylinder fired, then another, and the engine came to life one cylinder at a time. It was running rough, it’s usual power totally absent, but I managed to get it into the garage just as the rain started.
To be continued.
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Chuck you know the safest thing to do here is to just fix the car and leave it to your wife to negotiate with the owner..
..but what would Raymond Chandler do?
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If that's a silver car I think I'm jealous.
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I remember her and the car from Williamsburg. An unusual brake fluid reservoir from a later model?
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Poor Diane..........
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Monday morning. I started the car. It started easily and warmed up well, but as the temp gauge hit 80, the idle went rough, and the engine died. Again, a very difficult re-start. Fuel-related, I thought, so I did a fuel volume check just aft of the regulator/dampener. It pumped a pathetic tenth of a liter in 30 seconds. Fuel filter in the engine compartment was clean. Fuel tank and pump appeared new, with correct hoses and clamps. Took out the fuel sender and found a perfectly clean tank, screen, and flower pot. Noted that the plumbing had the "Y" that diverts some of the returned fuel to the bottom of the pump, again with all new hoses and clamps.
Took the fuel cap off, and the car started instantly. Thinking I was on the trail, I checked the vent lines and the canister in the trunk. All good. A red herring, starting deteriorated even with the cap loose or off. Frustrated, I quit for the day.
Tuesday morning. With the engine cold, did another fuel volume check. This time I got the full liter in 30 seconds. I thought this was interesting enough to consult an expert, who told me that what i was seeing was not possible. How could fuel delivery change with temperature? Left to my own devices, I sucked it up and checked the small filter in the pump, which was clean. I unhooked the supply line from the pump and blew it out from the engine compartment back and also disconnected and blew out the S-hose from the filter to the pump. No obvious blockages in either.
Running out of options, I decided I might as well blow out the return line as well. To my surprise, it initially resisted the air pressure, then gave way, and the tank made gurgling noises. Well, that's something, I thought, so I reconnected everything, started the engine and warmed it up. The first hot start was excellent. Others, at intervals of 15, 30, 60, and 120 minutes were also good. The problem appeared to be resolved.
I drove the car for a couple of days, no hot start problems. In fact, starting was best leaving the pedal at rest. Previously, the car had always needed half or full pedal for a hot start.
But why did clearing the return line fix a supply problem?
I think Joe Alexander nailed it in a recent thread on hard hot starting:
"This continuous volume of fuel cools the IP and the fuel itself as it circulates. If the fuel volume or pressure is low, the fuel system will become leaner. and hotter. Fuel can actually boil or vapor lock in the IP or the injector lines in severe cases. Good fuel volume and pressure during start up, helps clear the lines and cool the fuel system. This is why a plugged fuel return line can cause severe starting problems, since the fuel cannot circulate or cool the system."
What this experience adds, I think, is that problems with the fuel return can also affect fuel delivery volume.
The unsolved mystery, is what caused the return line to become plugged?
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Whatever plugged the line is now in the tank if I read your posting correctly...
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Good diagnosis but where's the pic of the attractive Asian woman?
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I've seen this problem enough times to look at the return line as part of my inspection. One thing you should do before hooking up compressed air to the return line is to wrap a rag around the air hose or wand and remove the fuel cap from the tank. If the hose is plugged, you will get a shot of fuel in your face - the rag should prevent that from happening. You also want any air entering the fuel tank to escape easily or fuel could shoot back at you from escaping pressure.
I would do this test on a cold engine, outside if you can, and difinately wear goggles.
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Good advice indeed!
I'm with Stick - you cant tell a story like this and not post a photo of the main character (car and woman please!)
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Working on a picture.
Also, the story gets more strange. I am not making this up.
After a couple days of driving, the hot idle went low, to the point where the engine would die. Checked the idle CO and found it over 15%. Going max lean on the idle adjustment brought it down to about 10%. The hot idle improved, but 10% is not a good number. OK, I thought, now that it finally has adequate fuel flow, it's running rich. So I went two clicks lean on the rack, which improved the idle CO, but made the car run poorly. Same, but not as bad at one click.
So I thought, maybe that's just the way the pump is, and I was ready to send the car home. Yesterday morning I took a final test drive to Starbuck's and the car died when I put the clutch in approaching a traffic light. It re-started easily, but would not run below 2000 rpm. I got it back to the garage and messed around with it for a while. The difficult starting was back, along with a refusal to idle and generally crappy running even giving it gas. Pulled a couple of plugs out and found them bone dry, but better color than before the fuel line fix.
This morning, I reset the idle adjuster to 15 clicks from max lean, connected my gauge to the cold start pipe, and started the car. No idle, poor revving. Went a click rich on the rack. Poor idle, but didn't die, revved better. I ended up with three clicks rich on the rack and 13 rich on the idle wheel. At this point, sounding good, idling well, and 4.3% CO. So I removed the gauge and went for a test drive. Car ran well, but as I pulled back into the driveway, the idle went lumpy. I put the meter on it and found 10%+. Four clicks lean brought it down to 9.2%. WTH? Why would the idle go so rich after a 10 minute test drive?
Then a light came on. I had removed the gauge and re-connected the CSV. That was the change. So I re-connected the gauge, cutting off the fuel to the CSV. The idle CO went down to 2.2%, and four clicks brought it up to around 4%. Running and idling very well.
So what I think has happened is that the car had two problems for a long time that offset each other. 1) a blocked return line that reduced fuel flow and 2) a leaky cold start valve that increased fuel. I believe they sort of balanced each other out until the blocked line went critical.
I've been driving the car today with the gauge on the CSV line and it's running really well. Tomorrow I will test my theory by removing the CSV, re-connecting it, and seeing if it leaks.
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Took the valve off and reconnected it. With the fuel pump running it has a nice slow steady leak.
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I've seen this problem enough times to look at the return line as part of my inspection. One thing you should do before hooking up compressed air to the return line is to wrap a rag around the air hose or wand and remove the fuel cap from the tank. If the hose is plugged, you will get a shot of fuel in your face - the rag should prevent that from happening. You also want any air entering the fuel tank to escape easily or fuel could shoot back at you from escaping pressure.
I would do this test on a cold engine, outside if you can, and difinately wear goggles.
Yeah, but should I smoke? :-\
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By coincidence I have had the same problem for several weeks. (no attractive Asian woman involved however)
It turns out the rack was totally stuck, to the rear. Thanks for mentioning that Joe.
Using the bolt trick, I was able to get it out about 1/4" and drip ATF on it. Now it does move back and forth and the engine runs ok most of the time. It is still sticking at random times.
Is my IP not getting the proper oil flow? Can I somehow fix this with IP in place?
Thanks for the thread.
Ron
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Yeah, but should I smoke? :-\
I imagine you will after the fire starts to go out.
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Ron,
Check to see if you have the lower deceleration solenoid on your IP. If so it may be activating causing the rack to go full lean. Disconnect it if this is the case.
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Thanks Joe, there is only one solenoid on the IP. It's a R11.
The rack, using the 4mm bolt to move it, will now move in and out. Before it was stuck pretty solid. When driving, things work well as before, except it'll hang up once in a while, causing a stall at low RPM's. I've only driven a few miles since all this started happening a few weeks ago. The rack in the car still is not moving as easily as the rack on my spare IP (a R18).
I'm thinking of using an injector cleaner. This trouble started after the car sat in a shop waiting repairs to the chassis. So I'm thinking there's a bit of gum in the IP.
Just curious. When you take the attitude compensator off the IP, there's just a chamber with oil traces. How does that oil get there? Is that what lubricates the rack? Should I apply a bit of oil there?
Regards,
Ron
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Moderator - Ron may need his own thread since we've drifted off the topic of the Attractive Asian Woman (thread is useless without pictures!).
Ron - Have you read up on the oil inside your injection pump? If you're unfamiliar, you may want to check it. Here are just a few threads I found when searching on "injection pump oil".
http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=21295.0
http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=22574.0
http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=22382.0
http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=9526.0
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Hey Rodd, thanks for the search, I had seen some of that, and I read all you sent. I did fix the problem.
BTW, I think the "chamber" I'm looking into under the atmospheric compensator is oiled via splashes in the flyweight area.
I did drip oil on the rack from the front of the pump, and on the rear of the rack showing in the chamber below the compensator. (remove the compensator and use a flash light to see it down there, it is brass colored) I'm not sure that worked.
What seemed to do the job was an injector cleaner used a triple strength in the gas. It was Chevron "Techron". This stuff was pored in and then let the electric fuel pump run a few minutes. Let the car sit for a few hours. Manually moved rack, started, ran the car for a few miles. Rack sticks in rear position, and car will not run at low RPM's. Did this twice. Third time the engine took off like a rocket. I think it is running better than ever.
Sorry I moved off topic. This did fix the symptoms originally described. No pictures of attractive Asian woman with SL. This is the best from my searches for such a picture: http://californiaclassix.com/images3/c377-0.jpg
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I think Ron has hijacked the thread so that the Actractive Asian Woman is kept secret. No distractions please we are waiting on a photo. ;D
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Her photo has graced this forum before. It was placed here along with a few other photos from an event that took place. The event photos are long gone along with her photo.
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Well, the rebuilt cold start valve arrived and got installed. The car now starts quickly and runs very well. The AAW drove it home last night and reported,
"Bottom line is FABULOUS! Wow, what power now that fuel issue is fixed. Of course, I need to continue monitoring to see if he consistently performs. It was pure JOY flying down the highway."
Let's hope it stays that way.
And, by popular demand, picture attached.
Cheers,
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The window winder cover is the wrong colour! ;D
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../... The AAW drove it home last night and reported.../...
And, by popular demand, picture attached.../...
Chuck, I can only say - Well done! And, I wouldn't mind tinkering with her SL in _my_ garage... ;) Great indeed
/Hans in Sweden
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What window winder cover? ;D
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WOW sexy shoes and gloves .... Was taking this photo part of the final payment for all your work and careful investigation Chuck ? ;D
Great story Chuck, I enjoyed it very much ... Should we somehow add this story and picture of course in our next Pagoda issue Stan?
Cheers, Dieter