Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: Brian in NL on December 13, 2014, 21:39:01
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I just spent an hour reading through this roundup of the U.S. auction houses' sales of MBZs this year. It's fascinating. Perhaps most shocking is how much 190SLs have followed the rise in 300SL prices. The author implies there is a bubble at work here, but he's right to note that some of these prices are way out of proportion to the condition of the cars. There's a lot of quick restos being foisted on foolish buyers. I also continue to be amazed at what some deep-pocketed buyers will pay for "preservation class" cars. The values of W113 SLs in the states continue to rise, but the prices (save for a few six-figure exceptions recently for pristine restorations) seem far more realistic than the exuberant market for 190s.
There are some good comments in the evaluations of each car, though the author does not seem to be much of a fan of W113s; consider his comment about a very clean 1970 280SL that sold for $80,000: "An excellent example, but it seems that most of the 23,885 production run are on the market right now. Without a 4- or 5-speed manual transmission, they are boulevardiers, mostly driven by folks in gated communities who are too old to lift off the hard top. Given the law of supply and demand, the price was right."
OK, we all know they are not race cars. But for the record, I have never lived in a gated community. And even when I was 20, I couldn't lift the damned hardtop!
Anyway, enjoy the read: http://www.sportscardigest.com/mercedes-benz-sold-auction-2014/
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Some really interesting reads and prices especially the 190SL’s that he thinks are totally over rated and in a bubble at the moment. Nice to see a straight shooting commentator.
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Interesting recap. Nice to see many 113's in one place including my former car on page two.
Anyone here heading to Scottsdale for Auction Week next month? Perhaps we could connect.
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Nice find and good read, thanks for sharing!
Somewhat off topic ...
The photo below (found on the posted site under Cars for Sale) brought back memories and made me laugh :) When I immigrated to Canada in 1957 my friend brought me to the boat in his then new 1957 Isetta. To this day I had no idea that police in the country used those cars on patrol. The police Isetta pulling over a Porsche made me laugh, asking myself however did he catch him, or why on earth did the Porsche not get away.... LOL
Prior to leaving Germany, and coming from the city we watched the police in white Porsches speeding along the Autobahn we at the time called them "Weiße Möuse" (white mice) it was a fun thing to do on a weekend standing on an Autobahn overpass.
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Is that a California "black" plate on the Porsche?
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...though the author does not seem to be much of a fan of W113s; consider his comment about a very clean 1970 280SL that sold for $80,000: "An excellent example, but it seems that most of the 23,885 production run are on the market right now. Without a 4- or 5-speed manual transmission, they are boulevardiers, mostly driven by folks in gated communities who are too old to lift off the hard top. Given the law of supply and demand, the price was right."
Who are WE to argue with "experts?" Here's the poop on author Rick Carey: About Rick Carey: One of the first people to report on the collector car market, Rick Carey’s market knowledge is unparalleled and he has one of the largest databases of auction transactions. Carey has a strong and recent background in racing, particularly road racing in International GT endurance competition and a particular interest and focus upon the collector car market including historical trends and economic analysis.
There you have it. His market knowledge is unparalleled... ;)
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And not just the 190 SL market is crazy. I saw the 600 Landaulet at Techno Classica this past March. OMG "hulk" does not even begin to describe what this car looked like. They are among the most complex mechanical devices ever from MB. Not just crazy money to buy ($730,000!) but crazy money to restore (needes everything and then X2) but crazy to keep it on the road (although that is most likely not the end point for this car)
BTW - Brian thanks for posting the link! Most interesting to look/read through.
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Here is another one on the market after restauration ... $95K is it a fair price or not? what do you think?
https://foundyt.com/site#/item/548cc995b56fa8ed216cca86
Photos take a while to load up ... wait for it
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Commenter is right...
356s were considered VWs for longest time
1990 SL was rich mans Karman Ghia
now both are thru roof.....
113s were actually considered Ladies cars...
I think his "old timer" comment point to fact that in many invetsment markets when old-owners sit on investments it depresses value. Prevents new generation from buying/ enjoying / trading up.
All the Ferrari 250 SWB you see are from jet setters in 1960s (from hollywood to s. france) who moth balled these until last decade. Once they are on market, values soar.
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..... 113s were actually considered Ladies cars...
Really? Perhaps in lala land! ;)
(http://s13.postimage.org/aro5jw1t3/64_Spa_Sofia_Li_ge_Eugen_B_hringer_Klaus_K.jpg)
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@ KevinC, I will be in Scottsdale in a couple of weeks... I'll be there all week, reporting for the SL Market Letter.
I'll be attending all the auctions, but paying close attention to the cars at Gooding, RM and Bonhams... of course I'll check out BJ too, and Russo and Steele is always a good show.
As you probably know... the quality of cars varies so greatly at the Arizona auctions and the prices can be crazy... although, there are still deals to be had, but they're few and far between. I think it's a much better place to sell than buy... buy W113 190 and 300SLs anyway. The occasional nice R107 SL slips through the cracks or a 280SE 3.5 sedan or something a little less off the radar than SLs.
Last year I was looking over a 280SL in one of the Barrett Jackson outdoor display tents, it had already run through the sale and had a 'sold' sticker on it. It was dark blue, incorrect upholstery (MB tex) pattern, thick repaint, modern CD player, speakers installed in the parcel shelf, various other things that made me cringe... underneath was freshly slathered with textured black undercoating which always scares me. A guy walked up and opened the door and put something in the driver's seat. I asked if it was his car. He said "Yeah, I just got it for $75,000 (something like that anyway), I saw a guy pay double that yesterday at the RM sale, this was a deal!"
He was really happy... which is great, but he thought he got a deal because he saw someone pay twice as much for a different 280SL a day before... and it gets me thinking about how few 280SLs are really $150,000+ cars. While the market can drag lower priced cars up as the perfect examples sky rocket... those lesser examples will never be great examples. The price difference between #1 cars and number three cars is often double or triple.
I think there are a lot of people in AZ who see something crossing the block that looks 'cute' or 'cool' and they raise their hands with only a very basic knowledge of the market and even less knowledge about the car they're raising their hand for.
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I agree... I don't think BJ is the place to buy a 113 especially if you want one that's been pre-scrutinized. When I sold my car at Gooding last year, they wanted pictures and documentation sent to their MB specialist before they would consider accepting my car. BJ IMHO is pickier with their Friday and Saturday cars and less so on other days.
PM sent on getting together!
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Have you guys seen the Gooding W113's up for auction? What do you all think? Looking forward to seeing the results.
http://www.goodingco.com/vehicle/1971-mercedes-benz-280-sl-8/
http://www.goodingco.com/vehicle/1971-mercedes-benz-280-sl-9/
http://www.goodingco.com/vehicle/1970-mercedes-benz-280-sl-4/
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Hello Mark,
Thanks for sharing! Prices do seam fairly high, let us see what they do go for :)
BTW, this seams about a year too late "Welcome to the Pagoda SL Group" and good luck with the work on your Pagoda.
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Thanks! Great site. I will post a more formal introduction in the coming weeks. :D
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Can you believe this statement about the horizon blue one
"More recently, the engine bay was carefully detailed"
What a croc..for a start its covered in black paint...
There is poetic license and then there is deceit...I will let readers decide where this one falls..
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A couple of more from RM. Aggressive pricing for sure.
And even to my newbie eye I note plenty of incorrect details in the engine bays of RM and Gooding cars.
http://www.rmauctions.com/lots/lot.cfm?lot_id=1071707
http://www.rmauctions.com/lots/lot.cfm?lot_id=1071698
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It always seems like within the W113 market that there are many more 280SL's than 230SL's.
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Those of us with 230SL’s appreciate that we have the purest example of what Paul Bracq and his engineers were trying to produce and dont sell them that often. Its not about money, they are usually the keepers ;) ;) ;D ;D ;D
Now that will stir up a hornets nest.
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http://www.goodingco.com/vehicles/#!
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So what if some of the details under the hood aren't Concours correct. If the car is in good nick, DRIVE IT! I'm glad to see that the values are appreciating for Pagodas at all levels.
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A few from Barrett Jackson to follow
http://www.barrett-jackson.com/Events/Event/Details/1970-MERCEDES-BENZ-280SL-ROADSTER-181401
http://www.barrett-jackson.com/Events/Event/Details/1968-MERCEDES-BENZ-250SL-CONVERTIBLE-182416
http://www.barrett-jackson.com/Events/Event/Details/1964-MERCEDES-BENZ-230SL-ROADSTER-180801
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190SL's are not 113's - they cost a lot more to restore. Prices on parts have also gone through the roof. A very simple fuel hose that goes from the fuel filter assembly used to be about 20 dollars and the new price is......... about 300. It's probably a typo but you will never get MB to admit it or ever change it. I warned that this would happen and now it has.....
A 190SL is also much more difficult to restore than a 113 and there is considerably more hand fitting required so the car should bring more money. Doubling price in two years isn't what I would have expected though.
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A friend of mine just sold his '57 300SL Roadster for 1.1 million at the RM auction yesterday. I'm going to miss working on that car.....
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RM Results
http://rmauctions.com/lots/lot.cfm?lot_id=1071707
http://rmauctions.com/lots/lot.cfm?lot_id=1071698
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Gooding
http://www.goodingco.com/vehicle/1971-mercedes-benz-280-sl-9/
http://www.goodingco.com/vehicle/1970-mercedes-benz-280-sl-4/
http://www.goodingco.com/vehicle/1971-mercedes-benz-280-sl-8/#prettyPhoto