Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: KevinC on August 19, 2014, 14:55:29
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These all APPEAR to be #2 and better cars... looks like values are still strong for clean, seemingly well-sorted pagodas...
http://www.goodingco.com/vehicle/1971-mercedes-benz-280-sl-6/ $88,000
http://www.goodingco.com/vehicle/1968-mercedes-benz-280-sl-3/ $99,000
http://www.goodingco.com/vehicle/1971-mercedes-benz-280-sl-7/ $126,500
http://rmauctions.com/lots/lot.cfm?lot_id=1068224 $264,000 :o
http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/21917/lot/209/ $88,000
I believe that all selling prices include buyer's premium.
Kevin
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The $264K figure was 300SL Roadster territory when this group started. And a decent one at that!
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values are still strong for clean, seemingly well-sorted pagodas...
Operative words: well sorted. Midas mufflers, third-party fuel pumps jerry rigged, wire wheels and "bondo" probably don't figure into the "well sorted" category…for those that care about maintaining value!
Note also that the later models seem to be commanding the higher prices. Not the 230SL, and the seemingly rare 250SL with low production numbers is more of a curiosity than anything affecting price in a positive way. At least it seems that way when they come up for sale!
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Midas mufflers, third-party fuel pumps jerry rigged, wire wheels and "bondo" probably don't figure into the "well sorted" category…
Couldn't agree more Michael...some people ask "why such a range in selling prices between #4 and #1 quality cars?" I don't believe that cars with average paint, replaced fenders, unkept engine bays, obvious rust repairs, bad trunk floors, mis-matched interiors, etc are getting this kind of money.
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The inside of that quarter-million dollar car doesn't look all that good: if you have a closer look at the passenger door card you see quite a bit of sagging? And the leather on the dash in that corner of the windshield as well. And the rear wheels show a lot of (I can never figure this out: negative or) positive camber.
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Car looks mighty fine to me…but would have to see in person. Photos are smooth and nice…
Anyway, Cees--everything you wanted to know and more: http://www.ictworkshopsolutions.com/2011/06/wheel-alignment-3/
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Couldn't agree more Michael...some people ask "why such a range in selling prices between #4 and #1 quality cars?"
...and yet, we still see all manner of the aforementioned, which creates a larger disparity in pricing. The haves and the have-nots; the regular class and underclass; the rich and the poor. Is this mirroring our American society? :D
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The only obvious flaw with this car is the incorrect firewall pad material. Otherwise the car is gorgeous. Color combo is spectacular. Interestingly they don't mention that the car was converted to euro spec as it has the headlights, sidemarker delete and kph speedo. The car was delivered new to California so it was obviously converted- a good move!
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There also seems to be other interior items that are not consistent with a U.S. 280SL, such as chrome trim on the steering wheel and rear view mirror, and small knobs on the window crank on the doors.
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Cees, Our spring over the rearend is the camber compensator spring. When it is weak, we get negative camper, or if you put 300 or 400 lbs of cement in the trunk and the wheels point in at the top, that's negative camper.
Back on track: Its been a mistery to me why W113s were so undervalued compared to similar vintage cars. Why has it taken so long to get the prices they deserve?
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I bet Mike if you and I put our two cars in top shape (our two cars only being 3 serial numbers apart) some Millionaire would purchase both just to be able to say "Look I have 2 of them that rolled of the assembly like on the same day" LOL Perhaps He or She would get another in white then He or She could say "Look I have three in the colours of the American Flag and two of them rolled of the assembly line on the same day [or close to it]).
Then again ... we have no intention to sell and why should we :)
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The only obvious flaw with this car is the incorrect firewall pad material.
This brings up an interesting topic...isn't the semi-flat black grainy firewall pad the one that the Classic Center supplies?
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There are a few detail items not right under hood. The clamps are gold/yellow cad - nope, should all be silver finish. Missing the middle bumper for the hood, there is no radio supressor spring. Can't really tell but are there a few gold yankee clamps (with the holes in the band?) Too bad they were not able to get the original type brake reservoir. Not major, but for this kind of money, it should be spot on perfect.
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The car is gorgeous. Small details such as clamps can be corrected with pocket change and shouldn't seriously enter into an evaluation equation.
I've photographed car details before, and can tell you that under certain lighting conditions, silver finish appears gold and vice versa; so unless you see the car in person, don't assume. Also, that photograph you can see on the website doesn't provide enough detail to make serious judgment calls. On the screen it is about 8x10 at res 72, which is pretty low. Most camera phones will give you a lot better results.
The original brake reservoir isn't available to my knowledge. The original ones don't often look pretty (how often do we see questions about cleaning and brightening the plastic?) so it's easy to understand why they installed the one they did.
If the work was done by the Mercedes-Benz Classic Center, they can ONLY use, without exception, parts sourced from Mercedes-Benz--even if those parts are far away from original appearance, and a reproduction that looks perfect to the original is available, or can be made.
If one were to take a good driver, or even a great one--to Motoring Investments, Kienzle in Germany, The Classic Center (Germany or USA), Hjeltness or Gernold at SL-Tech and ask for a ground up restoration, you would be in that kind of money. Just ask the Gary Jarvis about his 250SL featured in the current issue of The Star...
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I assume we are all writing about this one: http://rmauctions.com/lots/lot.cfm?lot_id=1068224
If so then note that "This original Southern California-delivered car received a frame-off restoration in Germany."
That explains the km/h and centigrade instruments.
The VIN is 113.044.12.004696 thus it should have the red/red tail lights. The cabin rear view mirror is from a 230SL/early 250SL as are the window crank handles! But it does look nice if the new owner doesn't care about originality then he/she is probably happy.
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The car is nice but it looks like a euro model from the location of the vin plate on the firewall. The door cards are US though.
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My guess is there were two or more bidders who had promised this car to their wives/girlfriends and the bidding got a bit crazy. So there is one very happy buyer and one or more with some 'splainin' to do ...
Agree with Michael, at this price the minor originality issues can be addressed easily enough. But the buyer could probably care less. He or she just liked the car, wanted one that was like new, and had deep pockets. I'm sure the restoration shop owners love it when they see these crazy prices.
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So much for trying to make a car perfect ::)
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I'm sure the restoration shop owners love it when they see these crazy prices.
That is for sure. That kind of prices make restorations more economically sensible and will bring them more clients.
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And might drive restoration prices, and prices for new parts, even higher. MB has started a couple of years ago to control the spare parts market much more, and since then prices have already increased quite a bit for many parts. The more valuable the cars become, the higher they can raise the prices. Which in turn pushes values higher, and we have a vicious, or virtuous depending on whose perspective you take, cycle.
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I certainly get the discussion on high parts costs. BUT looking at it another way ... my 230SL was at a local shop two weeks ago with the front-end being rebuilt. I thought that I had supplied them with all of the correct parts but of course, they discovered that I needed more. I emailed Tom Hansen at the Classic Center who secured the parts I needed from their stock and had them shipped via overnight delivery to the shop. Personally, as one who helps manage inventories and watches "carrying costs" in the industry I work in, I cannot imagine what MB's parts inventories must cost them. I know that they are in the business to make money but they truly do support their brand. As an aside, my brother has a mint 1969 Corvette. GM stopped stocking parts for this car in 1979. For parts he has to rely on reproductions and sourcing NOS which is not always possible. The guy that manages the front-end shop that did my SL was AMAZED that parts could still be ordered from MB and delivered overnight. IMHO, in the collector car world, I think we are a little spoiled when it comes to having access to "factory" parts.
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So judging by the RM car, that would make the Survivor '69 and the Restored '71 on Brian's site real bargains...
http://motoringinvestments.com/MainPage.htm
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Fair point Kevin. As an owner of a '73 Chevrolet myself I contend with the NLA phenomenon and we are lucky in that regard. But when a new crankshaft has to cost €17 thousand (that's what I was told by a major restorer years ago applies in the case of a 300 SL, don't know if true) I can't help but think there's a major markup in there...
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Cees,
I see your point as well. Like $200 for a gas cap and $700 for a steering wheel, right?
Kevin
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Parts and labor prices for these cars have always been high relative to others. That's [one big reason] why, for example, my car sat from 1985 until I rescued it in 1998; and why there are so many of these cars left in limbo in a barn or garage; the owners or stewards as it were can't or couldn't afford the repair costs.
It's just that they are higher than ever! :o
What's amazing, Kevin, isn't so much that parts are available from MB, its that the parts are available for cars with such low production numbers.
At the Concours of America Hagerty Seminar on restoration, one of the experts made a point regarding old (1964-66) Mustangs: in the first 2.5 years of production, there were 1.1 MILLION of these cars made. They will NEVER be rare. While Ford may not support them there are enough aftermarket suppliers out there; they cannot support too much in the way of a car that only had 50K over 9 years like ours. Heck you can get anything for a Model A if you look!
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such prices for a restored car bring some questions about the value of original unmolested cars like this one: http://bringatrailer.com/2014/08/19/44-years-owned-original-1969-mercedes-benz-280sl-4-speed/
An unrestored 300SL brought more than a bolts and nuts restoration recently. Cars are original only once!
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Cars are original only once!
exactly! and some guys go sticking V8s in them!! :)
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Go figure!
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On the topic of NLA parts, could we not find another project like you guys did for the firewall? Have a poll on which part is the most wanted by members of this forum and get a batch made? I am (comparatively) young and naive but there is power in numbers and a bunch of guys all wanting the same -relatively- simple part could get it made, given the wonderful technology available to us today, instead of fighting over hopefully recently discovered NOS items at crazy prices...the little plasticky trim things...rubber buffers, knobs, even things like the thermostat housing on early injection pumps. 700 euro for that? Come on.
I was looking at the fan blade and other engine bay poly plastic receptacles for which replacements are not exactly right and called up businesses that make those things. They can do it but it is prohibitive for a single unit. if 20 members want one and you make a batch of 100, the remainder can be entrusted to a member vendor who will add it to his catalog, and costs brought down for the members who started the project.
You did it with the firewall. Can we not doing it again for other stuff?
Again, inexperienced and naive here, but could it not work?
Thanks to all who take the time to provide me with invaluable advice along my journey to make my car right. What a fun hobby!
Jerome
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Jerome,
Soon someone will duplicate all critical parts using a 3D scanner/printer ... I can see it now :)
I would do it if 30 or 40 years younger, however, I don't want to go back there to that rat race LOL
Just look at this Jay Leno clip ----> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZrJsrTT4EA
as said ... soon someone will :) only I dont think the price for parts will go down, not by a long shot.
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I fully agree that the clamps and such can be easily corrected. But my point is really, if they can't get the details right, what about the other stuff??
Or if they really don't care, and just want the bling, then go for (as apparently someone did).
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I don't often agree with this writer, but I thought his assessment of last week's prices at Pebble Beach/Monterey were interesting and relate to our discussion here:
http://www.autoextremist.com/
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Here's my assessment. Auction buyers for eye watering prices (at least at Pebble, Scottsdale and Amelia) don't give a rip about originality, correctness, what the factory did, original color, original engine in it, is the clamp right, or any of the other stuff we discuss on this site, for high production sub-$500K cars. The buyers paying the big bucks care about mostly two things, is it new and is it beautiful. And, beautiful alllows for wide latitude, non-original interesting color combos, blinged up engine bays, special upholstery details (how about a classy armrest!), you name it. These are cars to be seen in at parties and country clubs for the money-means-nothing crowd, hence the head shaking prices for what seem like inferior cars to the educated (factory correct) crowd here. And let's face it, most everybody here would be too cheap to pay the high prices achieved at auctions.
The exception, Porsches.
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...and kph speedo.
Which has a very obscure typeface.
Nice color combo, and the panel gaps look good, but IMO a fool and $264k of his/her money was parted for this car.
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People paying that money may have the help of a "Wayne Carini" evaluation- it will be an educated opinion and advice but unfortunately some classic car experts aren't fanatically aware of all the intimate details of each model.
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Here's my assessment. Auction buyers for eye watering prices (at least at Pebble, Scottsdale and Amelia) don't give a rip about originality, correctness, what the factory did, original color, original engine in it, is the clamp right, or any of the other stuff we discuss on this site, for high production sub-$500K cars. The buyers paying the big bucks care about mostly two things, is it new and is it beautiful. And, beautiful alllows for wide latitude, non-original interesting color combos, blinged up engine bays, special upholstery details (how about a classy armrest!), you name it. These are cars to be seen in at parties and country clubs for the money-means-nothing crowd, hence the head shaking prices for what seem like inferior cars to the educated (factory correct) crowd here. And let's face it, most everybody here would be too cheap to pay the high prices achieved at auctions.
The exception, Porsches.
John...I have to say that I respectfully disagree...I have been attending various auctions for the past 10 years or so...mainly as an enthusiast. Many of the guys purchasing the higher end cars are buying the cars that are "right", some for fun and some as investments. The "muscle-car" focused houses tend employ a great deal of hype but Gooding, Bonham's and RM typically offer very respectable examples. Even the higher end American cars at Barrett-Jackson will only sell well if they are correct. I wasn't in Pebble Beach and don't know the story of the near quarter million Bonham's 280SL but a questionable car selling for a great deal of money is more the exception than the rule.
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.... hence the head shaking prices for what seem like inferior cars to the educated (factory correct) crowd here. And let's face it, most everybody here would be too cheap to pay the high prices achieved at auctions.
John,
RM also sold a 1957 190SL for $341K (http://www.rmauctions.com/lots/lot.cfm?lot_id=1068223) that was restored by the same company in Germany that cobbled the 280SL together.
Please take a look at these photos and let us know how accurate it is: http://www.sl-classics.de/fahrzeuge/auktionen-rm/mb-121/
Thanks!
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It's not accurate. You can begin with carpet in the front, weird binding on the carpet, finishes in the engine bay. Please see my earlier post to see my assessment of the situation.
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Thanks John.
Since I don't know 190SL cars that well I just wanted to know whether the company does a better job with that model.
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I like the colour combo of the crazy priced Grey Blue 1968 model also, as it is near identical to my 1969 :) .....except mine has a darker blue roof and black steering wheel.
Unlike this one, Mine has original firewall padding, original floor mat, correct and original steering wheel and rear view mirror...)
Maybe I should see if the buyer of that one wants to fling me a cool 1/4 mil also?
Question - I notice these cars do not have the "Automatic" badge on the trunk lid (See attached) - even though they are Automatic? Was that just for the UK / Aust cars?
Rob
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Rob,
US delivered cars did not have the Automatic badge.
Garry
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I like it.............yet another nice feature our US cousins miss out on........then again we miss out on those beautiful (cough) bumper overriders ;D
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For me, less is more
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About the automatic badge, I seem to remember reading somewhere that in Europe at the time our cars were marketed it was considered upscale and desirable to have an automatic car whereas in the United States you typically wanted to downplay that characteristic to project a sporty image.
Jerome
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Same could be said today...