Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: scoot on August 03, 2014, 16:02:15
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I am after a mint mint mint w113 in left hand drive, automatic, 280sl. Budget generous enough..
Welcome Eric. Just for clarification...
1. money is not much of an object
2. location isn't an issue (for instance, a car in the States is fine)
3. color? Does anything else matter?
4. mint restored or mint original?
Have fun!
Scott
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Hi Scott,
Money is always an issue! But just to say that i am aware as to where the market is. I don't mind paying for a really good car.
Based in London, i would prefer a car based in Europe.
Difficult to purchase a car from America, no? I mean i have to work long hours and can hardly fly your side to inspect a car.
I think i would prefer a restored car. I like old cars that look new. I know not everyone agrees, but there you go.
Don't mind US or Euro car. Must be 280sl, lhd and auto.
Colour is important! I like lighter colours on sl's. white / off white / light metallics.
I also love some greens / midnight blue / antracit....
No gold / red / black i love but not ideal for sunny day car.
Cheers,
Eric.
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Oh, and a brabus car is too much money!
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Hi Eric - Lovely car - I have to admit I prefer darker colours on the 113 as they tend to show off the lines better.
The most obvious point to make is whether to buy it restored or whether to buy a cheaper car needing work and pay someone to restore. The second option would make more sense (done to your spec, budget, colour and most importantly by your choice of restorer).
- although I would add this could be the more expensive option, but with mint 113 prices these days maybe not. Colin Ferns is in your neck of the woods - a good man for advice by all accounts.
Oisin
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Hi Oisin,
Thanks for the response.
My fear is to embark in a money pit restoration process.
So many of my friends did this on porsches and the restorers behaved as if the client account was their own one.
By buying a car done, i know where i stand.
Saying that, i looked at the guys at cardock classics in ireland and they seem to do an amazing job.
I assume £150k cars which is rich for my blood.
If you know who are the right peeps for a resto then tell me!
Eric.
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I hear you Eric - these are famously expensive to get restored. The old adage "get the best car you can't afford" probably still applies. Trouble is that mint examples are going for stratospheric prices these days. Still, enjoy the thrill of the chase whichever way you go.
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Hi Eric,
Nice car and color you have there and welcome.
I recommend you purchase the best quality and condition you can afford, then your friend properly pointed that out to you I'm sure. I did that and am not sorry I did.
You mentioned US cars, there is a nice mint one for sale (see the link below) you may not have seen it. If you like it you can always ask someone here to look it over for you. I think you can have it shipped to you for about $3.5K a bargain I think compared to prices I've seen advertised in Europe and the UK.
Check it out ---> http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=20693.0
Good luck in finding what you seek!
PS. There is a member on this forum he has one in Europe (Switzerland I think) it is for sale unless he sold it. Unfortunately I do not recall his name if it comes back to me I'll post it here. Perhaps some other member recalls his handle and/or the link. Also the fellows in Poland are doing some fine restoration work on Pagoda's perhaps they can chime in and point you in the right direction. Good Luck!
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.... Must be 280sl, lhd and auto......
Why not a 230SL/early 250SL? Much nicer interior trim! Less hassle with emission controls
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There are no emission controls to worry about on European 280SLs, but I agree that one shouldn't focus on the model, rather the integrity.
I recently sold my 230SL that, although not perfect body-wise (although you average buyer wouldn't know to look at it), it was mechanically better than new but I really struggled to get a good price for the car simply because it was a 230.
Eric, the professional standards of some of the specialists with large advertising budgets and consequent high profiles do not meet with my approval so be very, very careful!
Colin
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Hear you Colin!
230 / 250, not against it per se if the car is right and the price too.
May insist on auto box though as i want to relax..
We can chat offline at some point.........
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You should have bought this one, it went to a smart buyer in Germany:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/390878723937
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You should have bought this one, it went to a smart buyer in Germany:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/390878723937
Thanks.
Looks lovely! Any idea how much it went for?
I do not find it comfortable to buy from the US without me being there. Never say never though..
Having said that, let's focus on what's available and what can be bought now..
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Alfred,
That car was nicely presented great photos and description. Attention to details and presentation is everything.
My guess is that it sold for around $75k being what the prices are in Europe. What would be your guess on the selling price?
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Eric,
In the German Pagode Forum said someone the selling price was K60$
http://www.pagodentreff.de/diskussionsforum/showthread.php?p=90707#post90707
I asked him how he found that out? Perhaps he will tell us.
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You should have bought this one, it went to a smart buyer in Germany:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/390878723937
There seem to be something wrong with the front right fender of this car. Looks like it was not pulled back properly after a crash.
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Can you point out the evidence for this "putative crash" ???
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-4zJw3VT7I90/U7YeT8vf2rI/AAAAAAAAQAI/aOAM1x6T0kk/s880/1967Mercedes230SLivory103.JPG)
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Looks very OK to me,
One of the horns touched some ground, have it on my car as well ;-)
Rudy
PS tires on one axle should be the same for safety reasons
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...some of the specialists with large advertising budgets and consequent high profiles do not meet with my approval so be very, very careful!
They sure know how to pretty up the exterior, though, don't they?
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I also want to say a big thank you to all of you who have been in touch and pointed a very good cars.
Already have great leads.
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Can you point out the evidence for this "putative crash" ???
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-4zJw3VT7I90/U7YeT8vf2rI/AAAAAAAAQAI/aOAM1x6T0kk/s880/1967Mercedes230SLivory103.JPG)
I don't see anything wrong in the picture from underneath. But somehow, the shape of the front right fender does not look right to me. May be it's the angle of the picture.
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Actually one has a fairly sharp corner and the other one a fair size radii ... If one likes to be technical about it.
That said, one being RH And the other being LH there may be a slight difference in shape. When comparing the two very carefully one might think that the RH side may have made contact with some sort of a stationary object in the past or was repaired at some past date. Just my observation.
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Now that you point it out, both fenders are different seen from underneath. Looks like the right fender (left on the picture) had some work done on it and the shape is not matching the right one anymore.
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Two mint examples here...
http://motoringinvestments.com/MainPage.htm
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Four cars here appear to be nice... would be worth the airfare to California to check them out!
http://www.goodingco.com/vehicle/1968-mercedes-benz-280-sl-3/
http://www.goodingco.com/vehicle/1971-mercedes-benz-280-sl-7/
http://rmauctions.com/lots/lot.cfm?lot_id=1068224
http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/21917/lot/209/
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Funny, you'd think our eyes would be better calibrated by now. ::) Looks like a new radiator, too, also pointing to frontend work.
Mine is a little beat up on the bottom. Its a little hard to understand how folks bump into stuff under there, but I expect a ding or two on a driver. I just had mine rebuilt, I ASSUMED the idiot would pretty it up before resoldering it. Asking a monkey for a do over is not always wise.
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This sounds churlish even as I type it but...I'm not all that interested in scrolling through screens and screens of 107 images. Could you minimise your photos? (Or better, get that pagoda and then start uploading).
Sorry about that! I tried to delete this message but couldn't see how.
Guess you love your car but...to me, the 107 is a reminder of how design went bad in the 70s
Oops, sorry again
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Well it seems the days that Pagodas were cheaper in the US are over! What prices...
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Well it seems the days that Pagodas were cheaper in the US are over! What prices...
Indeed, I was thinking the same thing! But asking/estimated price is not necessarily what they will be going for.
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If they do, it will be interesting to follow up the Hagerty valuing tool in the coming weeks!
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Indeed, I was thinking the same thing! But asking/estimated price is not necessarily what they will be going for. If they do, it will be interesting to follow up the Hagerty valuing tool in the coming weeks!
The Hagerty Valuation Tool today suggests that the average #2 quality 280SL would have sold in May 2014 for $83k and the average #1 would have sold for $140k. Most cars that I have seen personally at RM and Gooding are #1 to #2 quality so the estimates really aren't that high IF the cars are what they are claimed to be. Gooding sold a white 1971 280SL in Scottsdale in January for $130K and even up close it seemed to be a nut and bold restored car meaning that the seller may have lost money on it. Interestingly Gooding is listing a third 280SL in their upcoming line up but it shows and is estimated more like a #3. Keep in mind though that Eric said "mint" so I left that one off.
All stated, this are the PEBBLE BEACH auctions and it wouldn't surprise me if that fact alone may add 10-15% to the value of these cars. IMHO while Barrett-Jackson's Scottsdale auction in January seems to be the place to buy especially nice American muscle cars, Pebble Beach attracts the best crowd for the European classics.
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Here's another candidate...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercedes-Benz-SL-Class-280SL-1969-mercedes-benz-280-sl-incredibly-original-southern-california-280-/221513673615?forcerrptr=true&hash=item33933e6b8f&item=221513673615&pt=US_Cars_Trucks
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At the rate this is going I think the moderator needs to move this to “other Cars"
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Four cars here appear to be nice... would be worth the airfare to California to check them out!
http://www.goodingco.com/vehicle/1968-mercedes-benz-280-sl-3/
http://www.goodingco.com/vehicle/1971-mercedes-benz-280-sl-7/
http://rmauctions.com/lots/lot.cfm?lot_id=1068224
http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/21917/lot/209/
Looks like a few fantastic cars. Last one looks super crisp.
Estimated prices are high.
Can't take this much time to go over to America. Highly impractical.
Sorry for posting my r107 earlier. I don't believe for a minute design went bad! I think it is very clean shapes just like the w113.
Massive fan of the ds! Had a ride in a sm at the weekend, what a car!
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Here's another candidate...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercedes-Benz-SL-Class-280SL-1969-mercedes-benz-280-sl-incredibly-original-southern-california-280-/221513673615?forcerrptr=true&hash=item33933e6b8f&item=221513673615&pt=US_Cars_Trucks
Thanks again for this. Big fan of the colour.
The dashboard seems painted white or cream?
No mention of history.
Ideally i prefer a car painted in one colour rather than hardtop different.
Indentations on lights are there but not particularly crisp?
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I think the angle of the photo is making the dash look different, given that it is silver, a very typical Mercedes colour.
The two tone cars with different roof colour are in my opinion, something special and was a costed option that is not easy to find in original spec's. I may be biased but I am spending quite a bit of money now getting mine back to the data card of the dark blue over the light blue from all one colour.
Garry
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Hey Erics, I love your enthusiasm.
After reviewing this thread I just have to ask if you have driven a Pagoda yet. You may find that a 230SL done up properly is everything that you want. Yes I have a european 280sl with standard tranny and leather interior but to be honest, I would trade it tomorrow for my friend's 230sl euro with a standard tranny and leather interior. Cars all drive differently so make sure you can get a feel for what you want before you dive head first into a purchase.
Check the data cards and learn how to read them at a moment's notice - then you can see what is real or not. A different coloured hardtop is special.
I was at an auto show last year where guys tend to brag about their car being say one of only 893 Mustangs with a certain option package, so I put my own little blurb on the window of my Euro 280sl just to poke fun at the muscle car guys. The math really doesn't work the way I put it, but it got lots of attention from the muscle car guys.
If Pagodas were valued on options like say a Hemi Cuda, this 280sl would be a very rare car (lets do the math)
• Only 48,912 Pagodas made between 1963-1971 (compare this to the 606,000 Mustangs made just in 1966)
• Roughly ½ of the Pagodas were 280SLs (down to 1 of 23,885)
• Of those, 75% were exported out of Europe (1/2 of all production exported to USA) (1 of 5,971)
• Its said that 80% of 1969-70 cars were automatics (down to 1 of 1200)
• Of that it is estimated that 3% had a limited slip differential (1 of 36)
• If you factor in 20% of Pagodas had leather interiors, this car could be 1 of 7 made with a similar build sheet
• But wait – this car was ordered with a contrasting hardtop colour (15% of production)- so it could be 1 of 1
• Does that make it rare - no - all Pagodas are special
Good luck.
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.... Estimated prices are high.
Can't take this much time to go over to America. Highly impractical. ...
Since you want a car in "mint" conditions you should get used to prices well over US$100K otherwise the car will NOT be mint.
If you plan to spend that much then the costs for a quick trip to the USA are only a small percentage. You could lose a lot more!
Perhaps your best bet is to hop on the Eurostar and visit http://www.geevers-classic-cars.com/, that will tell you what daily drivers now cost in Europe. For something more upscale visit these two:
http://www.pagoden-center.de/
http://www.autosalon-singen.de/
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Hi mate,
Yes, i drove a couple and passengered in many.
This is why i want one!
The one i should prob have bought was the Howard Wise light blue car. I fell in love with it. Was very sporty and less cruiser than my r107.
http://www.howardwisecars.co.uk/index.php/classic/car-details/mercedes_280sl_pagoda_lhd_1969_blue_terra/
Total resto. Was so crisp, so lovely to drive. The level of detail s amazing. Went through 7 year resto. Prob was that for £100k car, it had zero history apart from resto documentation.
Sold to f1 driver paul di resta who bought it for his wife.
Then i drove leggy ones and did enjoy them much.......
Cheers,
Eric.
Hey Erics, I love your enthusiasm.
After reviewing this thread I just have to ask if you have driven a Pagoda yet. You may find that a 230SL done up properly is everything that you want. Yes I have a european 280sl with standard tranny and leather interior but to be honest, I would trade it tomorrow for my friend's 230sl euro with a standard tranny and leather interior. Cars all drive differently so make sure you can get a feel for what you want before you dive head first into a purchase.
Check the data cards and learn how to read them at a moment's notice - then you can see what is real or not. A different coloured hardtop is special.
I was at an auto show last year where guys tend to brag about their car being say one of only 893 Mustangs with a certain option package, so I put my own little blurb on the window of my Euro 280sl just to poke fun at the muscle car guys. The math really doesn't work the way I put it, but it got lots of attention from the muscle car guys.
If Pagodas were valued on options like say a Hemi Cuda, this 280sl would be a very rare car (lets do the math)
• Only 48,912 Pagodas made between 1963-1971 (compare this to the 606,000 Mustangs made just in 1966)
• Roughly ½ of the Pagodas were 280SLs (down to 1 of 23,885)
• Of those, 75% were exported out of Europe (1/2 of all production exported to USA) (1 of 5,971)
• Its said that 80% of 1969-70 cars were automatics (down to 1 of 1200)
• Of that it is estimated that 3% had a limited slip differential (1 of 36)
• If you factor in 20% of Pagodas had leather interiors, this car could be 1 of 7 made with a similar build sheet
• But wait – this car was ordered with a contrasting hardtop colour (15% of production)- so it could be 1 of 1
• Does that make it rare - no - all Pagodas are special
Good luck.
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Some sound advice from Alfred ... I for example don't consider my car "mint condition" perhaps a -2 by Euro standards (needs some engine bay clean up, perhaps a major overhaul as well ~ I've been quoted $12K for that work).
Last year at the 50st anniversary in Williamsburg, Virginia some millionaire (my guess ~ just the way he talked and the way he was ready to part with his money LOL) stopped at my car and offered me in a heavy southern accent $70K US and a air ticked back to Canada for my car (he must have heard that my car came in second on the show field as a peoples choice also saw my Canadian licence plate).
I turned him down and simply told him the car is not for sale I have instructions from my daughter never to sell :)
So you can see to come near mint condition with my car I need to come up to that $100K or over that mark. So as Alfred mentioned, jump on a plane and look those cars over if you really are after a mint one. Your time and money will be well spend trust me! If you get one in Europe be prepared to pay a lot more from what I've seen in the past 2 years. So make it a vacation trip and have fun finding your dream car.
Ian (Bonnyboy) you point out some great facts and figures, well done!... makes a guy thing :)
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Flying to the US is not so much the problem. Flying for potentially nothing (which happens a lot with cars) and taking time off is more of an issue.
I bought my 964rs from auto salon singen in dec 2006.... So i know these guys well enough.
Will check out the others.
Thanks for the links.
Since you want a car in "mint" conditions you should get used to prices well over US$100K otherwise the car will NOT be mint.
If you plan to spend that much then the costs for a quick trip to the USA are only a small percentage. You could lose a lot more!
Perhaps your best bet is to hop on the Eurostar and visit http://www.geevers-classic-cars.com/, that will tell you what daily drivers now cost in Europe. For something more upscale visit these two:
http://www.pagoden-center.de/
http://www.autosalon-singen.de/
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Erics,
A good thing with this Group is that there are a lot of people through out the world that are able to look at a car for you before you fly anywhere and tell you pretty quickly if it is worth travelling to do an appraisal. There are also lots of professional MB mechanics and restorers here who for a small fee in the cost of buying a Pagoda in “mint” condition as you have indicated can go and do a full apprasial for you. The cost in relation to the purchase price is peanuts and has the potential to save you thousands in either repairs or making an informed decision.
As Alfred said and others have also said, you are not going to get a “mint” pagoda under $100USD and in Australia you wont get a “mint RHD Pagoda under $125-150k and at those prices they are being purchased by UK people(who are not flying to Aust to look) and shipped there at the moment which is telling me that you are not going to get one in the UK anywhere near $100k
You have great enthusiasm but you are already talking about the ‘ones you should have’ and unless you are prepared to spend some dollars and have proper apprasials and then quickly take a day or two to satisfy yourself that it is truely “mint” if that is what you think you need to do, then you are not in the race and will always get guzumped by other buyers who are prepared to make the effort to get out there and look.
Getting hooked up on things like “restored but documentation, no light notches, must be 280Sl cannot take the time to go to look etc. etc. appears to be stifling your approach to getting a good Pagoda.
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At the rate this is going I think the moderator needs to move this to “other Cars"
R107 photos are now here: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=20908
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Hi Garry, the thing is that by posting this thread, i already received a lot of feedback from members who either are interested to sell or pointed me towards good sources.
I take your point, but for me, a car is an emotional purchase and i like to go see for myself and get a feel, use my own judgement.
Plus i am not in a rush. The summer's almost over and prices will soften. Whether bc of lack of sun or economic climate.
I have a few leads i am happy with at this stage.
Eric.
Erics,
A good thing with this Group is that there are a lot of people through out the world that are able to look at a car for you before you fly anywhere and tell you pretty quickly if it is worth travelling to do an appraisal. There are also lots of professional MB mechanics and restorers here who for a small fee in the cost of buying a Pagoda in “mint” condition as you have indicated can go and do a full apprasial for you. The cost in relation to the purchase price is peanuts and has the potential to save you thousands in either repairs or making an informed decision.
As Alfred said and others have also said, you are not going to get a “mint” pagoda under $100USD and in Australia you wont get a “mint RHD Pagoda under $125-150k and at those prices they are being purchased by UK people(who are not flying to Aust to look) and shipped there at the moment which is telling me that you are not going to get one in the UK anywhere near $100k
You have great enthusiasm but you are already talking about the ‘ones you should have’ and unless you are prepared to spend some dollars and have proper apprasials and then quickly take a day or two to satisfy yourself that it is truely “mint” if that is what you think you need to do, then you are not in the race and will always get guzumped by other buyers who are prepared to make the effort to get out there and look.
Getting hooked up on things like “restored but documentation, no light notches, must be 280Sl cannot take the time to go to look etc. etc. appears to be stifling your approach to getting a good Pagoda.
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Eric,
One good thing is that at any point in time, there might be several very nice pagodas for sale on the US west coast where you are more likely to find a rust-free example. IMHO, not be-grudging the cars that have had rust repair that's done well...a rust free car is a good place to start when looking for a "mint" vehicle. I pointed out the Monterey area auctions mainly because it seems that there will be a handful of nice cars available at one time in the same area.
Also, in my opinion...I don't see prices softening....here's why...prior era SL's are going crazy price wise. There are 18 300SL's up for auction in California next weekend and the LOWEST estimate is $900k. These were $350k to $500k autos just five years ago. Even underpowered 190SL's are approaching $200K. It just stands to reason that the (our) next generation cars will be pulled up also. For further back up, check out this article from just six weeks ago:
http://www.petrolicious.com/why-the-mercedes-benz-280sl-pagoda-is-collectable
I am sticking with my prediction that mint pagodas will be $200k by 2016 if things keep moving as they have been.
In other words, if you truly want one...I wouldn't slow down on your hunt.
Kevin
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Sorry for posting my r107 earlier. I don't believe for a minute design went bad! I think it is very clean shapes just like the w113.
That was gracious of you Eric, after my rude remarks! Thanks.
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Eric
Finally found my notes from last August when I was at the 50th anniversary in Germany.
I went to Stuttgart to visit the factory and the museum and the classic car center.
While at the factory to go on 2 tours (last tour I did was 1972) I met a person from Boston that worked there and she said that I should visit Meilenwerk about 2 miles from the factory.
They have a building that is half glass and contains many restored old M/B cars.
It serves 2 purposes.
1- People without garages can store there cars in the glass half of the building in small compartments that is reached by elevators (Lifts) . It is something to see cars stacked upon each other all in glass.
So if your car was there and you wanted to go on a drive, they use the elevator to bring the car down and off you go.
After your drive you bring your back and it goes back to its place, by the elevators.
2- They sell many fully restored M/B cars that are in mint condition.
I have seen a Gullwing and a 300SL Roaster for sale and the sign stated "Ask for the Price"
All other cars had a price on them. Nothing under 100,000 Euros.
One contact I made was Holger Bockemuehl who sells 280Sl and also 230 and 250SL's.
He is very informative and is a good contact for a mint 113.
His email is
hb@bockemuehl-classic-cars.de
Let me know how you made out.
Tom Mrowka
sandcrab59
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This car has all of the possibilities of being a MINT car and could very well be a bargain to boot.
Eric, consider this your nudge.
http://bringatrailer.com/2014/08/19/44-years-owned-original-1969-mercedes-benz-280sl-4-speed/#comment-723915
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lovely car Kevin but red not for me..
What do we think of this?
http://www.thehairpincompany.co.uk/car-Mercedes-280SL-1968-2.html
or this (the 230 auto in grey):
http://www.veloceclassic.com
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Hello Eric,
In looking at the "grey" 230 in the provided link, I believe that may actually be 162 Blue Grey. Although I am a little prejudice, I think it is a fabulous color combination with the parchment interior.
Not sure about the white roof......
Good luck with your search.
Norm
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Both cars appear to be quite nice based on the photos. The Grey car certainly has a more unique color combination. On any of these cars the hubcap paint color should match the top but that's an easy fix. Could be that the car isn't driven often with the hardtop mounted and the PO just preferred the caps to match the body.
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What do we think of this?
Nice photos but they don't tell much about the cars. One needs to see details at high resolution to judge a car by photos.
Step 1. Get the data cards for the car and check how well numbers, paint colors and interior match.
Step 2. Ask for photos that document the restoration. Showing a shell in the primer stage is fine but we don't even know whether it is the advertised car. If the restorer or the seller do not have any then budget 3x the money you had planned to spend on a thorough inspection by a specialist.
Step 3. Talk to previous customers of the restoration company about their experience. What is the reputation of this company? How many Pagodas had they done?
As Norm wrote, "good luck"!
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You might send a note to Bruce @ BKandTK@.gamil.com to see what he has at the moment.
I know is a very nice original Black 230sl.
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Would you guys consider this one to be Mint?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercedes-Benz-SL-Class-280SL-1968-mercedes-280-sl-manual-4-speed-all-correct-amazing-history-make-/371126220204?forcerrptr=true&hash=item5668d8b5ac&item=371126220204&pt=US_Cars_Trucks
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I'd consider the write-up to be a load of utter guff, and the car to be very well photographed. Much more than that you can't really say.
My favourite comment is that the car is, "reported to start and run well." One would think that folk that got close enough to photograph the gear knob might have bothered to turn the key.
I think anyone interested in this would need to look closely. There's a truck load of BS to get through.
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Interesting that the seller bought the car at Gooding & Company's Scottsdale auction in January. This is the word-for-word write up from the auction brochure! Hence the "reported to run well". Perhaps the seller could have edited the copy slightly?
Appears to be a nice car though.
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Buyer's remorse?
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remorse? would he/she ever tell us or admit should he/she ever join us in this fine forum ... I don't think so :)
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Great blocking car, although I understand that red may be challenging to some. I passed on one exactly for that reason, although I must admit that Pagoda in red looks terrific, but all those stupid prejudices put me off.
BTW I really didn't get the point of inserting two pictures of the same data card.One with all data and one with the key code details darkened. In any case, thefts will have their job made easy if they saw this miss out, which is complete data on the card.
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Eric,
have a close look at this one and if the color is OK for you then call Roy Spencer, pronto!
http://www.mercedesheritage.com/classifieds/viewlisting.php?view=4375
It is also listed on eBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/261570441746
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Wow. Nice car. Plus "A California Coupe cleverly fitted with a correct 280SL soft top" is very interesting and unique.
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Indeed a very nice car but let down by the differences in interior colours.
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Thanks very much chaps. Not for me am afraid. Colour is a no no. And i don't like cali's. even less with a roof you can't hide.
Spent the afternoon with Neil at the hairpin company yesterday. Looked at all his pagodas. Dear God they are beautiful.
Pic of the bunch was the 13k miles original Jersey car. Just breathtaking. Nothing at all was changed since day one. Just awesome. Sold for £150k which i thought was not bad in light of the level of the car.
Have a few leads thanks to the help of many on this forum. Awaiting the response of some of you btw, :)
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Ahh - the thrill of the chase. Just had a look at the Hairpin Company's stock. Nice. Notice he has another with an equally amazing 17000 miles from new. Incredible.
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The 17k miles one was sold and gone when i was there. So did not see this one. Was slightly less good than the 13k miles car as had speakers added to rear etc. Sold for 124k pounds. Bargain i think! I mean in light of originality.
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http://www.beverlyhillscarclub.com/1971-mercedes-benz-280sl--c-2802.htm
You be the judge if it is worth the asking price. ;)
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88k? They must be on drugs.
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At that price they could at least sort out the left front axle leaf spring that looks broken. It would put the left front wheel back where it should be.
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I have this 1971 ... most options including a ski rack and luggage rack, 4 speed, hidden ac, sunroof. both tops. expensive.
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more of the 71
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Rancho Merced -
Wow, you are a looong way from Cave Creek
What is "hidden A/c"?
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Holy Cow. Not often you see luggage that's worth as much as the car :D
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It is an evaporator that I installed in the defrost plenum. It eliminates the knee knocker on the passenger side.
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I have this 1970 one too. Not as expensive.
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Is the output through the def vents only? Heater vents? Fresh air?
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output is everywhere. including under the dash. I will look for my photo and post it.
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more of the 71
Beautiful car! Not sure about the LV as I don't parade around malls in a Jimmy Choos! ;D
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Actually, I like to transport other things on my roof racks;)
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Or in my pagoda:
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By the way I have two more 1970 280SL that we are staring restoration on. Both are for sale. Pick your colors.
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Ranchomeced, nice cars you have for sale. I'm interested in knowing and seeing more about your hidden A/C system. Is it something you added while the original heater is still in place, or did you use one of these combined aftermarket heater and A/C they sell for vintage cars?
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I actually replaced the plastic plenum (with the defrost cable going to it) with a larger aluminum one in order to hold a small evaporator. Use the standard fan for a blower and turn it on an off with the defrost lever full over to activate a micro switch.
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more of the 71
Your cars look amazing. But I am afraid the colour combo is not my favourite.
I have actually located a few cars in the UK / Europe which looked like very good quality for money. So will investigate those before I decide to explore the Americas!
Many thanks for the input nonetheless!
Eric.
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Ive got two more (both 1970) you can pick colors and interior on now. First one will be finished by April or May 2015.
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Hi guys, been away for a while and busy shuffling some of my other cars. My r107 seen earlier in this thread sold last week.
I am more than ever after a pagoda. Contacted privately some the great guys on this forum.
Almost bought the 280se 3.5 rhd from charles ironside which was superb.
Anyway, i am after a very, very nice pagoda. Preferably already sorted out and in Europe. Lhd in uk would be ideal. Would consider rhd.
I'd rather not go for a US car as i don't like side repeaters and big over riders on bumpers (unless they have been taken out).
Colour is a big thing for me... Don't really like red or golden / copper colours. Any pointers appreciated!
Cheers,
Eric.
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Morning Eric
Have sent you message to give me call please.
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There is no shortage of Pagodas for sale, rarely has there ever been and now they are plentiful.
When you make color important, and "not in the USA" you should just go to one of the many European auctions, or contact one of the many European brokers.
You WILL pay very, very dearly for your desires...but they are out there...
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Morning Eric
Have sent you message to give me call please.
And responded.. :)
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Hi Michael,
American is ok, just prefer the appearance of a Europeanised car if it makes sense.
There are good cars out there but crap ones too!
I have travelled and seen many, many of them. A couple i came close to buying.
Now is the right time for me.
W113s are quite old now and many think they can get away with selling turds for a fortune. Some cars get stuck for months as a result.
Anyone can offer a car for sale at any price. It does not mean it sales.
Bluechip cars like certain italian cars sell for high money. Thing is, a pagoda is a lovely car, but not rare per se.
I had a 964rs of which they made 2000 or so. That sells for £200k if mint. A pagoda at this level is bonkers. Unless a very special and recognised variant of course.
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I have to agree with Mike, if you get one in Europe you will pay a lot more for one. I think you need to revise your wish list just a bit if you are serious about owning one eventually.
BTW, you mentioned "A Pagoda at this level is bonkers" must be an expression you use in the. UK I've never ever seen a "mad or crazy" Pagoda, even in London UK when I was there 2 years ago, no matter on what side the steering wheel was, they are all beautiful! :)
Continued good luck with your search ....
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W113s are quite old now and many think they can get away with selling turds for a fortune. Some cars get stuck for months as a result.
That sells for £200k if mint. A pagoda at this level is bonkers. Unless a very special and recognised variant of course.
There are, and have been, a number of Pagodas selling for that 200K price. They are indeed special. But that high end brings up all kinds. Are you prepared to spend that kind of money on an exceptional vehicle?
What has happened, and is happening here in the market for Pagodas is pretty clear. Prices are rising drastically. The good cars, and great cars are selling for amounts that many people don't want to pay. The people that ARE paying for them are not you or me, or many members here--it's a whole new class of owners. Commensurate with the price rise, is that a lot of mediocre (turds as you say) are coming to market.
The Hagerty price guides, and the SL Market letter price guides are indicative of pretty recent (within the past year) sales. Exceptional cars are selling (not listed mind you, but selling) for exceptional money. Also take a look here: http://www.motoringinvestments.com/MainPage.htm and look at the Mercedes page; there are listings for sold cars, as well as "For Sale". While many I know look at Mr. Peters offerings and suggest they are way too high, while they are saying that others come in and buy them. Also, take a look at Hyman http://hymanltd.com/view/inventory/?term=Mercedes-Benz&taxonomy=makes&term_taxonomy_id=26&term_id=23 and also contact Tony Labella (Tony LaBella Classic Cars), and Roy Spencer (Mercedes Heritage) and John Olson (SL Market Letter)
The cars are there. These were US Broker/Dealers, I'm sure the same exists in Europe...but one thing remains the same. High prices. ;)
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Totally agree with what Michael said. Also it is not the rarity that necessarily sets the price, but more the collectability, after all the old VW Kombi was made in the hundreds of thousands and yet they are now reaching the $200,000+ prices now around the world.
You stated you wanted a very very nice Pagoda but then retreat from the prices that go with the very nice cars out there for sale. You may need to reset your expectations to your budget or reset your budget to your expectations. Either way some movement one way or the other will be needed if you are to be successful.
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Totally agree with what Michael said. Also it is not the rarity that necessarily sets the price, but more the collectability, after all the old VW Kombi was made in the hundreds of thousands and yet they are now reaching the $200,000+ prices now around the world.
You stated you wanted a very very nice Pagoda but then retreat from the prices that go with the very nice cars out there for sale. You may need to reset your expectations to your budget or reset your budget to your expectations. Either way some movement one way or the other will be needed if you are to be successful.
£200k is not $200k.
If i wanted to spend that money (former amount), i would not bother with the forum and or mixing with enthusiasts, i would go on Parklane, buy one of the Brabus car and be done with it.
Or i could comission Gar at cardock classics in Dublin to build me a car at factory spec for £150k.
There are still exceptional 230s in continental Europe around 50-60k euros and ditto 280s around 90-100k euros.
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I'd be interested to see an exceptional 230 for €50k. My sense is that they're quite a bit more than that. For an exceptional car.
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When i am back in the UK tomorrow, I'll try and post a picture of a very, very good 230sl 4 speed manual that's been offered to me from Italy. Price 40k euros.
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There are still exceptional 230s in continental Europe around 50-60k euros and ditto 280s around 90-100k euros.
Erics, if those prices you quote, 60K-100K euros are in your price band you shouldn't have an issue finding one tomorrow, however I'm not precisely sure on that exceptional badge.
Recent pricing on 280SLs, "exceptional" are more than that here in the USA. Two were sold at Amelia Island. Lot 1 was a 1970 that sold for USD $143,000; lot 87 was also a 1970 that sold for $220,000. These are "exceptional" cars. The former probably was a bit undersold, I'm told, and the latter perhaps a bit oversold. But I do not make this up, this is where the market is today. At these prices, the location of the car is 100% not relevant. People buy this from all over the world. The market is changing drastically and quickly. Is it a bubble? Who knows...
There are also plenty of SLs for sale through the sources I mentioned, and don't forget that little USA magazine published for the largest Mercedes-Benz club in the world, which has many classified listings, constantly changing.
Garry: You may need to reset your expectations to your budget or reset your budget to your expectations. I love that quote!
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Wow, 40K Euro for a very very good 230SL would be very very lucky indeed and a very very good buy. 8)
Post some pictures, I am sure many here will give some originality pointers as they always do ;D
Garry
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Wow, 40K Euro for a very very good 230SL would be very very lucky indeed and a very very good buy. 8)
Post some pictures, I am sure many here will give some originality pointers as they always do ;D
Garry
The attached is comfortably below £40k. Based in italy. Checked over by someone who knows those cars. Not perfect, but very, very good.
Also what i was keen to say, is that people are keen to advertise super high prices, but some of the cars have not moved for 1 year+.
Look at Howard Wise, Peter Jarvis, Graeme Hunt, all of them have 280sl's advertised at £100k or more. None of them sold in well over a year.
Ludovic Parayre from lap63 has a lovely grey 280sl that was fettled by Gar at cardock classics has been stuck for a while. He wants £100k too and it's not selling. I saw equivalent 280sl's in quality terms around £60-65k.
The only expensive car that just moved was the Jersey car with Neil at the hairpin company. A rhd 280sl with 16k miles original on the clock, original paint. That was virtually a new car. I have pictures. This sold for £140k. That was more than justified. Maybe in fact a bit cheap in light of the level of the car.
Note that i have been consistently talked about £ pounds in this last post as there seems to have been confusion over currency value in recent posts.
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Erics,
That is a nice looking car. 40,000 Euro would have been nice, 40,000 pounds is still a reasonable price if it was a level 2 car
You are right on the confusion on Euro and British Pounds as well as LHD and RHD each making a big difference in cost.
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Newbie here
Stuck in the cultural and pagoda desert of the north east of England, I've been hankering for a while but dithering over trips to shortlist candidates for inspections. If you pass on this could you let me know, eric?
If anyone else is aware of a solid car at an absolute £50k max, preferably nearer £40k, that won't involve a remortgage to solve short term problems, a heads up would be appreciated.
I'm not interested in perfection, probably just as well at my price point, the model doesn't bother me... In fact I probably have a leaning towards a 230/50 manual, but no more than a leaning. It may be one of the very few cars that I think looks good in almost any colour. Just after a structurally and mechanically sound car for sunny day (we do get the odd one) driving. Don't care where it comes from, happy to import providing I can get someone who knows what they're looking at to check it over.
Apologies if i'm hijacking your thread Erics... figured the site wouldn't want too many 'buyer's help' threads... Happy to start my own if I've breached protocol with my first post!
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Hi "Milkyboy",
I have sent a pm to you,
Rudy
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You are right on the confusion on Euro and British Pounds...
Don't think there is as much confusion on currency values as there is a dynamic volatility in the markets--all of them.
Over the past year, the value of a USD $ has climbed against both the Euro, and the Pound.
Over the past year, the value of a Euro has climbed against the Pound, though more so in the past 6 months.
Over the past year, the selling prices in the USA of Pagodas--"The Market"--has been climbing, placing the same car at a higher value today, than last year.
So, cars are listed here at one price, and they sell at another. The auctions are a good of indicating where prices are going, since they are purely discretionary purchases and public information. The sources for prices in the USA, as mere guides, are based upon reported sales. All indicate a stiff rise.
Some of the photos that people post of cars for sale, particularly ones that appear to be on the lower end, are a bit misleading. Take a look under the hood, and the undercarriage, and in the boot/trunk. There are a lot of cars that look pretty on the outside but are really tarted up...and need a bit of work where you can't see it from a pretty profile.
A "mint W113" is going to cost--and with the dollar being what it is, probably more here than in Europe. However there was a time when the opposite was true. Many Pagodas were getting shipped back to Europe with a low dollar.
Good luck in your quest.
This conversation/thread reminds me a bit of one we had here a few years ago when a buyer was aghast at the price of a new Grill Star/Barrel Assembly ($1,200+) from Mercedes-Benz, and equally annoyed that either NOS, or good used ones either privately, from broker dealers or eBay were over $600, some more than that. Seemed he wanted a nice one for less than the market was bearing...and during the conversation my guess is the market went up. ;) This same conversation was held years earlier when the same part was half the price...
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Don't think there is as much confusion on currency values as there is a dynamic volatility in the markets--all of them.
Over the past year, the value of a USD $ has climbed against both the Euro, and the Pound.
Over the past year, the value of a Euro has climbed against the Pound, though more so in the past 6 months.
Over the past year, the selling prices in the USA of Pagodas--"The Market"--has been climbing, placing the same car at a higher value today, than last year.
So, cars are listed here at one price, and they sell at another. The auctions are a good of indicating where prices are going, since they are purely discretionary purchases and public information. The sources for prices in the USA, as mere guides, are based upon reported sales. All indicate a stiff rise.
Some of the photos that people post of cars for sale, particularly ones that appear to be on the lower end, are a bit misleading. Take a look under the hood, and the undercarriage, and in the boot/trunk. There are a lot of cars that look pretty on the outside but are really tarted up...and need a bit of work where you can't see it from a pretty profile.
A "mint W113" is going to cost--and with the dollar being what it is, probably more here than in Europe. However there was a time when the opposite was true. Many Pagodas were getting shipped back to Europe with a low dollar.
Good luck in your quest.
This conversation/thread reminds me a bit of one we had here a few years ago when a buyer was aghast at the price of a new Grill Star/Barrel Assembly ($1,200+) from Mercedes-Benz, and equally annoyed that either NOS, or good used ones either privately, from broker dealers or eBay were over $600, some more than that. Seemed he wanted a nice one for less than the market was bearing...and during the conversation my guess is the market went up. ;) This same conversation was held years earlier when the same part was half the price...
Hi Michael,
i like to trigger some passion in people... This is something else! ;)
The thing is. I am after a nice car at a reasonable price. And not particularly stressed or passionate about it.
I stopped searching for a while as I got busy with other cars. Not like I have been searching endlessly since the last summer so you may get an (wrong) impression of desperation...
Your post above contains a variety of errors, one of them being:
<Over the past year, the value of a Euro has climbed against the Pound, though more so in the past 6 months.>
The Euro has in fact weakened considerably against the Pound from circa 0.83 down to 0.72.
Otherwise I think that I have been pretty factual about those cars offered above £100k and not moving.Stating the name of the dealers for everyone to check by themselves.
Most of them (dealers) tend to think they have Brabus / Cardock Classic restored type cars. Which in 99% of the cases are far from the reality.
The thing I noticed with Pagodas is that there is virtually every shade of grey of quality and the same goes with pricing. So each and every car has to be judged on individual merits.
In discussions with a few persons and hopefully can sort out a deal in the next couple of weeks.
Mike (Milkyboy), feel free to pm me and I can let you know about some of my findings...
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Hello Erics,
You have been taking your time finding that Pagoda that is on your wish list. I noticed that one of your likable exterior colours is "blue" my car happens to be blue with blue interior. It is a US delivery originally to the state of Florida and imported to Canada in 1992 then restored at RM and purchased by a milionare here in little London Town, Ontario Canada. I found the car by accident in 2013 and purchased it after careful examination (the last two photos on my web site link show the car in a heated and air-conditioned garage of the millionaire in March 2013). Since then I only had the fan clutch replaced and late last year the radiator was recored and the oil cooler cleaned up. In September 2013 I drove the car all the way down to Williamsburg VA. for the 50 year celebrations that have taken place (a 1600 mile round trip without any incident except the passenger windshield wiper got loose, something I was able to correct quickly). There is a photo shoot included on my web site that I made on my return trip from Williamsburg VA as I stopped for dinner in Niagara Falls.
My car has won three awards, two first place at Mercedes Benz Club car shows and the last one was a Peoples Choice Award 2nd place on the Concourse on the Green in Williamsburg VA in September 2013 (see pictures in my web site link). Someone with a Texan accent walked up to me at the Williamsburg VA Concourse on the Green and said "I see you are from Canada, I pay you $70K plus an air ticket home for your car!" I told him "sorry the car is not for sale"
Look here if the link in the upper right does not open ----> http://rolf-dieter.smugmug.com/Cars/280SL-Photo-Shoot/
Now you might ask "Why is he telling me all this"
Well, you know as well as many others that might read this do "Life can trow us some pretty hard curve balls" It has town me a pretty hard one in December 2013 when I became the full time caregiver for my wife. Since then she has had a operation spend 4 weeks in the hospital and now is in a long term home. I don't think I need to say more.
So the natural path of life then get's into gear, selling the house, perhaps one or two cars (I now have three A wheelchair van, my daily driver and the Pagoda).
My plans are to still take in the PUB2015 near Columbus, Ohio in September 2015. BTW there my car will meet Michael Salemi's car his and my car are only three VIN numbers apart, it should be quite a reunion for the two cars :)
Chances are that there will be a "For Sale" sign on my car at that time. If not then, one other plan I have is to ship the Pagoda to London England have the car totally checked over in Colin Fern's shop then take a nice trip in England, Scotland and Italy before I sell her in Europe.
So my question to you (having seen quite a few Pagoda's) in what price range do you think my "Blue Tornado" falls?
Perhaps you like to wait with your purchase till September and take a vacation trip to PUB2015 you will have a chance to see many Pagodas :)
Anyway Erics, as I said before , I wish you good luck in your search!
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Hi Rolf,
Thank you for your kind and touching post.
My impression is that top cars fetch high money either side of the pond but they are getting rarer.
They are either top restored cars respecting each and every factory details or totally original ones.
I would say the above are are 2-3% of all the pagodas for sale.
Then there is the history element which a bit like vintage watches commands a slight remium.
Your car looks pretty and a good colour combination but it's hard to tell in details from the pictures.
What jumps at me is that details such as non original radio, engine bay not detailed and cup holders may ring alarm bells for some buyers.
However, i assume that the quality of restoration was good without being supetlative. I can't see notches on the front fenders for example.
Also bear in mind that europeans like the european looks. Us bumpers and side repeaters are not particularly well loved. Paradoxically, for mid tier cars, the chance is that you would get more money if it was europeanised already (front lights, remove repeaters and bumper overriders). Some may argue that it would cannibalise the car. But unless it is one of those super high quality cars appealing to specialists, chances are that the market will discount it.
As is and assuming that the car is good, relatively original and mechanicals are good, i would risk a price range between £50-65k. Obviously hard to say without seeing it and knowing all the details, but that is what those pictures inspire me based on what i saw recently.
Kind regards,
Eric,
Hello Erics,
You have been taking your time finding that Pagoda that is on your wish list. I noticed that one of your likable exterior colours is "blue" my car happens to be blue with blue interior. It is a US delivery originally to the state of Florida and imported to Canada in 1992 then restored at RM and purchased by a milionare here in little London Town, Ontario Canada. I found the car by accident in 2013 and purchased it after careful examination (the last two photos on my web site link show the car in a heated and air-conditioned garage of the millionaire in March 2013). Since then I only had the fan clutch replaced and late last year the radiator was recored and the oil cooler cleaned up. In September 2013 I drove the car all the way down to Williamsburg VA. for the 50 year celebrations that have taken place (a 1600 mile round trip without any incident except the passenger windshield wiper got loose, something I was able to correct quickly). There is a photo shoot included on my web site that I made on my return trip from Williamsburg VA as I stopped for dinner in Niagara Falls.
My car has won three awards, two first place at Mercedes Benz Club car shows and the last one was a Peoples Choice Award 2nd place on the Concourse on the Green in Williamsburg VA in September 2013 (see pictures in my web site link). Someone with a Texan accent walked up to me at the Williamsburg VA Concourse on the Green and said "I see you are from Canada, I pay you $70K plus an air ticket home for your car!" I told him "sorry the car is not for sale"
Look here if the link in the upper right does not open ----> http://rolf-dieter.smugmug.com/Cars/280SL-Photo-Shoot/
Now you might ask "Why is he telling me all this"
Well, you know as well as many others that might read this do "Life can trow us some pretty hard curve balls" It has town me a pretty hard one in December 2013 when I became the full time caregiver for my wife. Since then she has had a operation spend 4 weeks in the hospital and now is in a long term home. I don't think I need to say more.
So the natural path of life then get's into gear, selling the house, perhaps one or two cars (I now have three A wheelchair van, my daily driver and the Pagoda).
My plans are to still take in the PUB2015 near Columbus, Ohio in September 2015. BTW there my car will meet Michael Salemi's car his and my car are only three VIN numbers apart, it should be quite a reunion for the two cars :)
Chances are that there will be a "For Sale" sign on my car at that time. If not then, one other plan I have is to ship the Pagoda to London England have the car totally checked over in Colin Fern's shop then take a nice trip in England, Scotland and Italy before I sell her in Europe.
So my question to you (having seen quite a few Pagoda's) in what price range do you think my "Blue Tornado" falls?
Perhaps you like to wait with your purchase till September and take a vacation trip to PUB2015 you will have a chance to see many Pagodas :)
Anyway Erics, as I said before , I wish you good luck in your search!
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here is some 80 for sale now in Germany, Spain, Italy , Belgium , France, Austria and the Netherlands; prices from 35k€ ( for restorations) up to 125k€ , that excluding the ones from Brabus
http://occasions.autoscout24.be/?atype=C&make=47&mmvco=1&model=-67&mmvmk0=47&mmvmd0=-67&pricefrom=1000&fregfrom=1960&fregto=1970&cy=B%2CD%2CF%2CI%2CNL%2CA%2CE&ustate=N%2CU&dtr=s
At any case it's very difficult to evaluate 'your' value on a car based on online pictures without that you see, feel, drive, smell and even work on the car. Is everything working as it should ? How well do you know these cars, can you look behind the aesthetics? There is so much to verify and I think many cars on the market might be cars with work, lots of work on them. I would try to find one from an owner that took pride of his car through clubs or mechanics who did maintenance , those cars don't really need to be advertised I think but probably rare to find. Don't be in a rush but don't drag looking for one cause prices go up sure enough.
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Milkyboy
You have a PM
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here is some 80 for sale now in Germany, Spain, Italy , Belgium , France, Austria and the Netherlands; prices from 35k€ ( for restorations) up to 125k€ , that excluding the ones from Brabus
http://occasions.autoscout24.be/?atype=C&make=47&mmvco=1&model=-67&mmvmk0=47&mmvmd0=-67&pricefrom=1000&fregfrom=1960&fregto=1970&cy=B%2CD%2CF%2CI%2CNL%2CA%2CE&ustate=N%2CU&dtr=s
At any case it's very difficult to evaluate 'your' value on a car based on online pictures without that you see, feel, drive, smell and even work on the car. Is everything working as it should ? How well do you know these cars, can you look behind the aesthetics? There is so much to verify and I think many cars on the market might be cars with work, lots of work on them. I would try to find one from an owner that took pride of his car through clubs or mechanics who did maintenance , those cars don't really need to be advertised I think but probably rare to find. Don't be in a rush but don't drag looking for one cause prices go up sure enough.
See it's quite funny, a few cars in there that i looked at while back.
This for example:
http://nl.ww3.autoscout24.be/classified/263184394?asrc=st|as
Has been for sale for well over a year. Looks like a very nice car on surface but oh so many small details are not correct. Price is not crazy but high enough and it just does not sell.
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Still looking gentlemen. Looking at the white-grey one in Rosier in Germany (US spec restored to euro specs).
Looking at one in ireland, lhd US car with 39k miles original and full history from new.
Otherwise contacted some polish members of this forum to explore the possibility of having a car done up from scratch.
Overall still prefer 280sl lhd auto in euro specs... Any pointers appreciated... :)
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Erics,
You crack me up. 107, no, now 108 posts, somewhere around 90 cars suggested and you are still looking. Why am I not surprised ::) ::) ; ;D
I looked for three years for my second Pagoda, flew over 17000 miles and drove over 2500 miles and in that time the price went up around 60%. Lesson learnt, compromise and do some restoration or double the budget. I took the first option but still doubled the budget. The cost now would be double that again.
Good luck, we are all watching with baited breath to see what you go with.
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:)
Hi Garry,
The wait could have been over this weekend if Neil Dickens at the hairpin company had not sold the beautifull lhd euro car he had the day before..
http://www.thehairpincompany.co.uk/car-Mercedes-280SL-1968-2.html
Grrrr.
The budget is there for the right car. And went up just like it probably did with you.
Oh well.. I have another car on my radar which is in ireland...
Eric.
Erics,
You crack me up. 107, no, now 108 posts, somewhere around 90 cars suggested and you are still looking. Why am I not surprised ::) ::) ; ;D
I looked for three years for my second Pagoda, flew over 17000 miles and drove over 2500 miles and in that time the price went up around 60%. Lesson learnt, compromise and do some restoration or double the budget. I took the first option but still doubled the budget. The cost now would be double that again.
Good luck, we are all watching with baited breath to see what you go with.
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I've seen all of this before, in many dfferent ways, on several different sites.
It kind of reminds me of the old guy down the road who had a beat up 300SL and everyone wanted to buy it. People showed up from all over the place to help him change the oil and get the car running once in a while but after being driven rarely and only in parades, it was a complete mess; but it was a 300SL. He knows that if he sells the car, all of these vists from those who wanted to buy the car, or those who just wanted to admire it, will come to an end.
In the end, he sells all of his cars to RM because they took everything and they could afford to pay his price. RM cleaned the car up, fliped it at one of their auctions, and made a big bag of money.
So, what does this have to do with someone trying to find their perfect car for a resonable price? Well, I'll let you, the readers of this post, figure that out on your own. :)
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All due respect, be sceptical (cynical?) all you want.
Not sure you clicked on the link i last posted, that was a good car correctly priced. Which i agreed to buy subject to seeing / checking the car.
Unfortunatly, got to work (hard) to make a living, meaning being chained to my chair during working hours. Someone got there before me.
The reason why i am making use of this site is because there is a concentration of mostly great people who generally know well about w113 and who are based in different geographical areas. They may know of something that I don't.
Many cars offered are based in the US which really is not ideal as i would want to see before buying. I travelled across Europe and met some great people on this forum. They know who they are and they know i am genuine.
If my quest / interest annoy participants of this forum, i can stop posting altogether. You tell me.
I've seen all of this before, in many dfferent ways, on several different sites.
It kind of reminds me of the old guy down the road who had a beat up 300SL and everyone wanted to buy it. People showed up from all over the place to help him change the oil and get the car running once in a while but after being driven rarely and only in parades, it was a complete mess; but it was a 300SL. He knows that if he sells the car, all of these vists from those who wanted to buy the car, or those who just wanted to admire it, will come to an end.
In the end, he sells all of his cars to RM because they took everything and they could afford to pay his price. RM cleaned the car up, fliped it at one of their auctions, and made a big bag of money.
So, what does this have to do with someone trying to find their perfect car for a resonable price? Well, I'll let you, the readers of this post, figure that out on your own. :)
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Be patient. The right car will come along. If you find one pluck down a deposit until you can go see it. Good luck!
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Dont stop posting, it is just somewhat amusing as many of us have been there, done that, some several times over and time will change,
a. the amount of monies you put in,
b. how you approach the task,
c. the compromises you will make, and
d. the speed you will need to close a deal in the current hot pricing climate.
At the moment it is not in the buyers favour.
Garry
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Here's my point, if there really is one. ;D
Regardless of whether you pay 15K for a heap or 75K for a nice example, you will still end up with the same amount of money in the car at the end of the day. If you want instant gratification, then you are best advised to buy the best car you can't afford because the market will overtake what you paid in a couple of years anyway and you should not worry too much about it. I paid 12.5K for my car in 1993 which was a fairly high price relative to the actual condition it was in once I had more time to inspect it after I returned to my home. It's worth far more than that today but maybe not as much as if I had that money invested in mutual funds for the past 20 years. I wanted a 5 speed car and I bought the first one I found.
I'm not going to look through all of the pics you glossed over or cars you missed out on - there's always another car around the corner. If you are really serious about buying the right car, then you should have no problem with giving us an idea of what your price range woud be. There have been recent examples of guys on this site wanting fairly exspensive items but not wiling to state what they would pay for those things. Many offer help or ideas and yet the calls keep going out. When asked what their budget is, there's never an answer. ::)
I believe there's a policy on items for sale that states that you have to include a price or best offer over a certain amount or your ad gets pulled. Since anyone can go to general discussion and talk about what they would like to do, or buy, or sell, it kind of evades that rule, doesn't it? ;)
Do I think you want to buy a car? Yes, I do. Will it happen this year? Maybe. :)
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There has actually been several very good examples that have been offered up by our members and a couple that are still out there that members have put out on consignment.
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Keep looking, Erics, the next one may be around the corner for you.
Being in similar shoes (tied to a chair), i understand the predicament. Here is what i do: when there is an opportunity (like the one you are after), i get up and go. No work chair can keep me there. Dont get discouraged by our elderly here who would like to help run your budget and your opportunities. They are there to help, just cant help you enough at the moment.
Keep looking. Dont get discouraged, please.
Looking forward to pictures of your soon-to-be, newly acquired pagoda.
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Eric
How wedded are you to LHD?
http://www.silverarrows.co.uk/1968-mercedes-benz-280sl
Compared to some this looks "decent" value, gives some scope for playing with the interior - plenty of folk here can recommend help on that front - and is local...
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I think, i prefer lhd bc unlike some of the other cars i own, i think i want to keep it a while meaning taking it to mainland Europe.
I know the car below. My friend Raj considered buying it. But it really is a car needing complete resto.
The blue 250sl he had i considered (drove it) but the hairpin co car car at £80k was way better value.
What i found with Mike Lever is that his cars are often deceptive when you see them up close.
Eric
How wedded are you to LHD?
http://www.silverarrows.co.uk/1968-mercedes-benz-280sl
Compared to some this looks "decent" value, gives some scope for playing with the interior - plenty of folk here can recommend help on that front - and is local...
This week was really peculiar as it was my industry week and clients converging to london. I tried 3 times to free myself to go see the car that was being serviced at roger edwards. Failed, decided to go see Neil on saturday... Called friday night, the car was sold.. Gutted.
Keep looking, Erics, the next one may be around the corner for you.
Being in similar shoes (tied to a chair), i understand the predicament. Here is what i do: when there is an opportunity (like the one you are after), i get up and go. No work chair can keep me there. Dont get discouraged by our elderly here who would like to help run your budget and your opportunities. They are there to help, just cant help you enough at the moment.
Keep looking. Dont get discouraged, please.
Looking forward to pictures of your soon-to-be, newly acquired pagoda.
Tbh i stopped looking actively for a while as i bought a bmw i8 and got occupied with it... Then randomly, i came across a 280se 3.5 which i sort of fell in love with. That distracted me.
Now comes the spring, summer season and all the cars that got stuck over the winter months are moving, even some of the over priced tat that i previously saw, drove.
Not being a 'summer' buyer, i'll wait for the darker months if needs be.
Here's my point, if there really is one. ;D
Regardless of whether you pay 15K for a heap or 75K for a nice example, you will still end up with the same amount of money in the car at the end of the day. If you want instant gratification, then you are best advised to buy the best car you can't afford because the market will overtake what you paid in a couple of years anyway and you should not worry too much about it. I paid 12.5K for my car in 1993 which was a fairly high price relative to the actual condition it was in once I had more time to inspect it after I returned to my home. It's worth far more than that today but maybe not as much as if I had that money invested in mutual funds for the past 20 years. I wanted a 5 speed car and I bought the first one I found.
I'm not going to look through all of the pics you glossed over or cars you missed out on - there's always another car around the corner. If you are really serious about buying the right car, then you should have no problem with giving us an idea of what your price range woud be. There have been recent examples of guys on this site wanting fairly exspensive items but not wiling to state what they would pay for those things. Many offer help or ideas and yet the calls keep going out. When asked what their budget is, there's never an answer. ::)
I believe there's a policy on items for sale that states that you have to include a price or best offer over a certain amount or your ad gets pulled. Since anyone can go to general discussion and talk about what they would like to do, or buy, or sell, it kind of evades that rule, doesn't it? ;)
Do I think you want to buy a car? Yes, I do. Will it happen this year? Maybe. :)
Good advice. I am half tempted to book the rosier car. It is VERY expensive though. Double the initial budget. But pretty much exactly what i am after. Maybe more in fact. The thing is, at this price point, there are a lot of cars, choice and i know that i could buy a project car for £35k and get it built for far less than the rosier car. To my exact, precise spec.
So to answer dr Benz, there is a budget. Errr. £50-£115k depending on the car. The hairpin car was £80k and pretty much perfect for me and for the price.
Be patient. The right car will come along. If you find one pluck down a deposit until you can go see it. Good luck!
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I have a very nice 280Sl here that is for sale.
You can come and see it and decide for yourself whether it meets your requirements at 80K.
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It wouldn't be metallic light blue with cognac leather would it? ;D
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904 blue with cream leather, a proper combination!
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Sounds lovely!
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I have a very nice 280Sl here that is for sale.
You can come and see it and decide for yourself whether it meets your requirements at 80K.
Hi Colin, pm'd.
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Eric's
I have a very nice nut and bolt restored 230 LHD for sale if your interested
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Thank you everyone for the kind contribution.
After countless trips to Germany, i have bought a 1968 280sl auto from 1968 in lhd.
The deal took place on Friday. The car has been subject to a nut and bolt restoration including rebuilding every single thing: new paint to bare metal on rotisserie, engine, gearbox, interior etc..
Originally a florida car, it was brought to Germany in 2013 and painstaking restoration process was undertaken by Brian Dortmuller in Germany.
He is known for doing Thiesen's cars.
The car was initially 381h in colour (i think) and changed to a 904 midnight blue.
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A few more..
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And more!
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And again..
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And more!
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Taking the car back to London!!!
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And finally!
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Looks amazing - well done. Perfect for driving to Merano next year!
I note the reg plates change - assume that's a German law even for export.
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Looks amazing - well done. Perfect for driving to Merano next year!
I note the reg plates change - assume that's a German law even for export.
Correct James on the plates.
Now the fine work starts.
I will have the factory matkings under the chassis put back on.
The hardtop / windscreen joints do not link exactly, and when i did the 100km last leg of the trip from folkestone to london, i got some water ingress and i cannot possibly live with this on a car like this. So i will need to adress that.
Then i will have a concourse level detailing inside out and sealant protection to the paint.
Some details need adressing: the chassis plates is screewed the wrong way around, the bottom rockers on the side of the car have been painted blue, they should be black. I will source all the engine stickers. And a few other things. Anyone going through the pictures and seeing something not exactly right, please shout!
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Well done, nice looking car.
The rockers should not be blue or black but a dark grey. Do a search and the correct paint colour has been written about many times on the forum.
Garry
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Nicely done, car looks great .... Glad to see your search has come to a successful conclusion!
Happy trails always!
Cheers Dieter
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Looks amazing - well done. Perfect for driving to Merano next year!
I note the reg plates change - assume that's a German law even for export.
James,
I see in past threads you fitted a becker 7948. Still happy with it? Any idea where i can get one?
Started looking. Am sure can do better than £1500..
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Very, very nice car!
And since you asked (and note since the pictures were a bit dark, I really could not tell in some of this stuff was in place or not)
Should be two nuts on the top of the shock, to lock it in place
White label on the top of the automatic transmission dip stick
Yellow tape around the base of the voltage regulator (where the top can joins the base of the regulator)
Cotter style clamps on the heater hoses from the firewall to the block, and on the hose under the coolant tank (9mm band)
The stickers on the coolant tank should be on the sides of the tank (one is, the other is on the end of the tank which is not correct)
Just some very minor nits.
As you typed, the water ingress should be dealt with.
Best of luck, keep us posted
Will type again, just a lovely car.
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Now, that is music to my ears! Finding out small things like thar. I will put more pics very soon!
Pls keep em coming.
I should add that whilst being a florida car, it was restored full euro style, both cosmetically and mechanically. With correct euro differential ratio.
New clocks all around in kph.
I still noticed that center cluster has temperature in farenheit rather than celsius. No biggie but..
I will send your response to my guy looking after the car.
Very, very nice car!
And since you asked (and note since the pictures were a bit dark, I really could not tell in some of this stuff was in place or not)
Should be two nuts on the top of the shock, to lock it in place
White label on the top of the automatic transmission dip stick
Yellow tape around the base of the voltage regulator (where the top can joins the base of the regulator)
Cotter style clamps on the heater hoses from the firewall to the block, and on the hose under the coolant tank (9mm band)
The stickers on the coolant tank should be on the sides of the tank (one is, the other is on the end of the tank which is not correct)
Just some very minor nits.
As you typed, the water ingress should be dealt with.
Best of luck, keep us posted
Will type again, just a lovely car.
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Also, Jonny, since you know your stuff, do you by any chance know where i could find a diagram of the factory markings under the chassis?
I am planning to get this job done at same time as my hardtop leaking issues..
Thanks in advance.. :)
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Oh and more things again: i will fit a white steering wheel and gearknob... If i can find them.. In case anyone have some in VERY good condition.
Cheers,
Eric.
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Eric. The 7948 was discontinued (although I MAY have read somewhere that they still do them). They turn up on eBay and have been north of £1500 for ages - they were high three digit new They also end up in things like Mechatronik builds... wonder if they bought a load!
My own view is that it's over-engineered for the job - never used voice command or the bluetooth phone (not easy in a high revving soft-top). Sat nav is a bit crap. All I use is the FM, SD card and the iPod connectivity. There's a review of it in an old Pagoda World
If were to go again, I'd go for something simpler and with DAB built in. Retrosound or Chrome London might be able to help you.
http://www.retrosound.com/product-p/1968-76-1m16-hermosa.htm
Or have a chat with the guys at beckerautosound in New Jersey
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For me, it is a becker and the looks work in the pagoda.
I think you can still find them around the £1k level. My tec guy has one, i may buy it.
If you don't like your so much, we can talk..
Otherwise, there is a brand in essex who use your old mexico and fit all sorts of modern circuitery in it. You keep the old looking rario but get 4x50 watts and sub output with bluetooth tec.
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Erics - for the paint marks, use the search function, from the "Search" tab. In the search window use "paint dots", with the quote marks, you will get a very manageable listing of where and how the paint marks were used, and the various colors. The 190 SL group refers to this as "dotology".
Good luck, and there are quite a number of these marks on the chassis, the inner fenders, springs, shocks, etc.
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hi Jonny, thanks found some good links. Will send to my man.
Anyone know where is the best place to buy a white steering wheel and gearbox knob?
I checked ebay.
May buy a nice looking 2nd hand (almost new) steering wheel but i cannot see any original white gearknobs. Any idea anyone?
Erics - for the paint marks, use the search function, from the "Search" tab. In the search window use "paint dots", with the quote marks, you will get a very manageable listing of where and how the paint marks were used, and the various colors. The 190 SL group refers to this as "dotology".
Good luck, and there are quite a number of these marks on the chassis, the inner fenders, springs, shocks, etc.
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.../... I cannot see any original white gearknobs
AFAIK the factory never supplied any white gear knobs. They came in black, even when the steering wheel was the FOC optional white type.
However, you find white gear knobs aplenty (aftermarket) today
/Hans in Sweden
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Most Euro cars have black wheels and maybe that was standard issue at the time. I'm not that fond of white wheels in 113's - they seem to suit 190SL's more but it's all about what you prefer I suppose.
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Oh and more things again: i will fit a white steering wheel and gearknob... If i can find them.. In case anyone have some in VERY good condition.
Cheers,
Eric.
Try your local MB dealer for the gear knob
He should be able to order one.
I believe the part # is 113 267 0010 26 (Under £50.00)
the '26' is the important part.
naj
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white steering wheel ordered. Naj, i will try that, thank you!
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Ivory colour knobs (Manual & Auto) available from SL Shop (Discount for MB-UKClub members) in UK and SLS amoung others in Germany.
Paul
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Ivory colour knobs (Manual & Auto) available from SL Shop (Discount for MB-UKClub members) in UK and SLS amoung others in Germany.
Paul
ah.. I should have called my dear friend Bruce Greatham.. Oh well. Ordered with MB uk.
Another question:
the window seals fitted on the hard top (the one were the windows join the hardtop on the top side).... Can those be ordered? My car's ones have been cut a little short during resto and i may need to replace them (water tightness issues). Already ordered the A pillar ones (only 1 left in the UK!!), but needs the ones that join at the top of the window to close that tiny gap... Any idea?
Apparently Mercedes don't sell those?
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heres one
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/mercedes-benz/sl/mercedes-benz-sl-class-250-pagoda-auto-1967/4757437
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heres one
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/mercedes-benz/sl/mercedes-benz-sl-class-250-pagoda-auto-1967/4757437
Hi Paul, go back a few posts and you may find that i actually bought a car.. :)
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Hi Erics
Maybe worth updating the heading now to ............(Now Found
Keep well
(another)Paul
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Hi Erics
Maybe worth updating the heading now to ............(Now Found
Keep well
(another)Paul
Fair enough but I can't since my initial post got 'moderated'..
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Having some work done to the car since:
new battery and isolator fitted (ditch that trickle charger).
White wheel and knob.
woods straighten on the dashboard as there were gaps and i don't do gaps... ;)
Windscreen refitted since it prevented to have woods straight.
Address hardtop leaks.
Add-back yellow factory marks.
Get paint completely detailed.