Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Drive train, fuel, suspension, steering & brakes => Topic started by: Rodolfo on January 26, 2014, 16:37:52
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I need some assistance: I am busy changing the bearings of the rear wheels. I removed the drum brakes, etc and managed to pull out the axle of the left side. Now I am busy on the right side (which actually makes the noise). I read that there are some with a clip. Is a 230 sl from 66 with that clip? I have more resistance on the right axle, so maybe there is a clip?
I really would appreciate the assurance there is no clip before I use more force for pulling out the right axle.
best regards, Rudy
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I have a late '66 230. No circlip. There is a lot of info on the site about this job and Joes excellent rear wheel bearing tour. They can take a bit of effort to get out;sledge hammer and a decent piece of steel across the axle half; lots of pics on the site.
If you're really concerned that you may have a replacement axle with a clip, you could jack from the end of the axle tube to get it horizontal. You may have to have some sit in the boot to give you some extra weight when jacking. Just make sure the weight of the car is supported properly elsewhere on stands.
Take a look at your brake hoses whilst you're there. If they're more than 6 years or so old it would be a good time to change them.
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I've dismantled two of these with drum brakes and they did not have th circlip. I think it is a safe bet that if yours had not been tampered with that it i without as well
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Thank you all, guys.
Tomorrow I will give it a try with a threaded rod for pulling. Joe's tour explanation is great.
To be continued,
Rudy
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Ok, I have some threaded rods ready for the pulling job.
Should the (rightside) axle be horizontal to begin extracting the inner axle, or it doesnt't matter?
best regards, Rudy
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The good news is: I have the right axle out as well.The bearings seem ok. I will change them of course, now that both axles are out.
Bad news:
When I let the engine run, in fourth gear (still with axles out, and of course almost no oil in the diiferential) I have still the intermittent grinding noise.
It seems on the right side of the differential.Are there any bearing for the pivotting right axle which it could be?
Anybody has a technical drawing of that area of differential and the pivotting axle? I am a mechanical engineer, so that drawing and cross sections would be very helpfull.
Or any other suggestions?
best regards, Rudy
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I'm not a mechanical engineer, but the prospect of running the car without the axle halves in seems unwise. First, there's universal coupling that joins the axle half to the diff that would seem to be flapping around inside the axle tube, and that seems to me to be a really bad thing to do, and second, you'd be running it without oil. I assume you have the car supported on stands towards the outer ends of the axle tubes. If you run the car in gear with the axle tubes hanging down, you're bound to get some noise since the car isn't designed to operate at such an extreme angle.
Now that you've cracked the secret of getting the axle halves out, I would have thought that the next move is to replace the axle halves and seals, repack the bearings with the correct MB grease and reassemble having filled the diff with new oil (with the axle tubes level) and see how it runs then. I would have thought that the odds are in your favour that the problem has gone away. Worst case, you strip it again and go to the next level of fault finding. The only cost in this instance would be some oil and a bit of your time (and you could reuse the oil).
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Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree with the above post. From what you described that universal slip joint would surely been flopping around inside that axle tube. You'd be wise to do as suggested and button things back up to see if the noise is gone.
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The car is actually on jack stands under the outer axles, to avoid the axles hanging down far. The axles are a bit out (since it is not standing on its wheels, buut on jack stands which are closer to the middle of the car), but not at all completely.
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That might account for the rumbling, ie if the angle is greater than that which the axle might normally operate. I ran my car with the axles hanging for a specific reason and there was a rumble and - obviously - vibration that wasn't present when the car was sitting properly.
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James,
what I try to say is that the rumble while I was driving slowly was the reason why I started the work on the axle in the first place, since I thought that it was caused by the bearings. So rumble in normal because driving and oil filled in the differential.
Now it is still there, although it cannot be the bearings of the axles, since they are out. And the outer axles are not very far out, since they are on the jack stands, not the car body.
So I still have the rumble like when I started with, knowing now it cannot be the wheel bearings. That is the problem.
So, I really don't know what next to do.
best regards, Rudy
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I mean of course:
So rumble in normal situation as well, because I discovered while driving and oil filled in the differential, before I styarted the works. (it was the reason why I dismantled) So when I would put it back together (even with new bearings, because they were ok), the rumble would be there again for sure.
So now I think I have to dig further. But I need some help there with wath other cause it could be.
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Well, you don't know for sure that when you put it back together with new bearings, flushed diff and new oil that the rumble will be there. The next steps with the axle are pretty serious if you feel the need to strip it down to look at internal bearings. It's a major job.
Personally, I'd check all the bushes and suspension components. Vibrations could come from any number of components that are far easier to replace: spring rubbers (top and bottom); broken springs (though unlikely); shock bushes; comp spring rubbers; trailing arm bushes; flex disc, and so on. You could look at all of these and more before you start removing the axle. Although I realise you may have already looked at all of these things.
My experience of having stripped 2 rear axles is that they're built to withstand nuclear wars and still work, which is why I'd suggest looking elsewhere. There are quite a few threads on here about stripping down the axles.
Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
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I saw on the net there are gear and pinion for 3.28 ratio (mine is 4.08). That is tempting, if I would decide to open the differential. But it is a big work. I will sleep a night over it, maybe I should try with the new axle bearings.
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I believe 3.75 is the lowest ratio gear set for 230SL. It has been discussed on the site.
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Hi Dave,
there is a lower one for European cars - 3.69: http://www.pagode.info/22.htm
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Today I examined a bit more. The right wheel bearing is not super, but also not so bad. Of course it will be renewed anyway.
But I gave a closer look to the right hand axleshaft joint. See picture:
I slided the joint bellows away and shifted in slightly back the right axleshaft to support item 2, preventing it to hang in the axle tube (item 3).
As good as possible (narrow) I took with my hand item 5 , with my fingers near the side of 6. There was quite some radial movement possible (10 mm?) .
Is that normal, or is the cross 6 or bearing 7 the cause?
And are 6 or 7 difficult to replace?
I really need advice here.
Best regards, Rudy
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Rudy,
Ck all the mounts if you haven't done so already. As far as the right side bearing goes, make sure it is the roller bearing and not the same bearing type as on the left side. Many posts regarding this. I would not even think about changing the gears until you track down what the issue is first. It could be the slip joint and it could be the internal bearing. You may be able to extract the slip joint from the right side by undoing the attachment bolt and using a puller to get it out. I've never done this but I believe it is possible. You can then ck that universal. Bearing 7 would require a complete teardown to get at it easily. Best way to do this is to remove the entire rear axle from the car. If you go this far, it is time to address theother items in there that will be much easier to deal with like bushings, seals, the rubber bellows and the left internal bearing as well as the pinion bearing and crush sleeve. This is a big job! Changing gear rations would be done at this point but that alos brings along with it a set of issues that include proper gear meshing and gear set back.
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Thanks George for your advice.
I looked a bit further today (had a spare hour).
Probably it is not the pinion and crown gear of the differential. It could be indeed the slipjoint or the bearing of the pinion. In order to see that better, tomorrow I will dismount the compensation spring. I hope to see then what is under the belows.
Are there spare parts for number 6 on the drawing?
Don't see them at Bud's Benz or at SLS Germany.
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I've actually seen that universal advertised for sale someplace. Perhaps it was on ebay. It would not surprise me if this is a std sized universal but you would have to pull the unit to be certain.
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If you can get your hand to the universal joint and you can feel end play ie in and out, it could be the bolt that holds the universal joint to the sun wheel in the differential has come loose.
If the bolt is loose the RHS axle housing will have to be removed to tighten up the bolt, as stated above the axle is better removed from the car for this operation.
If you have to do this do not use Loctite when replacing the bolt (just the recommended torque settings), if you do and have to remove it again at some time in the future you will not be able to undo the bolt and the fitting in the sun wheel turns and you have no way to get at it.
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You should be able to reach that attaching bolt without disassembling the axle by using a long extension inserted through the right hand side axle tube after the rhs axle shaft is removed. Just beware that the bolt could be either a hex head or allen head-I've seen both used here.
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Yes, you can reach the bolt with the housing in place if you use some long extensions. Get the axle housing as straight as possible. Take a good look with a flash light (torch) first to see what bolt you have. If I remember correctly it is either a 8mm allen or a 15mm hex? Get it good and tight. If it comes all the way off, you will be walking. When I have a rear diff out and apart, I always use a new lock washer and locktite on this critical bolt, after washing and cleaning the threads. With the rear diff still assembled and in the car, just do the best you can.
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+1 for thread lock. Having seen the hassle involved in trying to do this I don't want to be doing it twice! As Joe says, if it comes loose, you won't be driving anywhere.
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I could not look today because of a busy day. But if it would be the bolt, for sure Locktite 242 (bleu) will do no harm.( But not the green for really thight ones.)
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Today I removed the compensation spring (a bit of a **** ....).
Still very difficult to acces what is under the bellows.
Anyway, I am now almost certain it is the bolt which came loose. It is a hexagonal.
Sure it is 14 mm , because it is a long way in there?
Is it a normal righthanded or a left spiral?
I screwed clockwise, but I think it came out that way. All of it is very difficult because of narrow access to it.
Maybe I have to remove the swinging right axle. Is that easy with the assembly under the car?
Many thanks on forward,
Rudy
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I ment: Is it 15 mm hexagonal?
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.../... it is the bolt which came loose. It is a hexagonal.
Sure it is 14 mm , because it is a long way in there?
Is it a normal righthanded or a left spiral?
Yes, it is a hex head 14mm normal right-handed (on later cars, as Joe A writes, changed to an Allen type).
I would suggest you obtain a M-B workshop manual and yes remove the rear axle from the car. The rear axle diff work is not trivial
/Hans in Sweden
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Yes, it is a hex head 14mm normal right-handed (on later cars, as Joe A writes, changed to an Allen type).
I would suggest you obtain a M-B workshop manual and yes remove the rear axle from the car. The rear axle diff work is not trivial
/Hans in Sweden
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If you haven't already trawled the threads on this subject, including mine, whcih practically details the rebuild of a rear axle and where it doesn't cover detail references many other threads, then now's the time to start. For my money, if you can't tighten and lock off the bolt, you should just remove the axle. Things will get a lot easier. Plus, I can only imagine the fun you'll have trying to replace the compensating spring with the axle on the car. Still, bloody well done for getting it off like that! 8)
One of the jobs you may find useful is in my rear diff thread and is a pdf copy from the BBB.
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As noted above, the rear axle teardown is well chronicled in the Forum. If you decide to go beyond axle bearing or pinion seal replacement. You are well advised to remove the entire axle from the car. It will be so much easier to get at the areas that may be of issue and again a great time to address those areas that may need attention later on.
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I am a bit afraid for the work of total realignment if I take the whole rear down. The car was superb in handling, don't want to have problems there.
So I would like to have advice only to take out the right swinging axle off and to have better access then.Is that possible?
best regards, Rudy
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Alignment isn't too difficult. You can do it with a plumb bob and some careful measuring, or there are more elaborate methods such as The excellent pipework frame. Anyway, it's probably the least of the challenges you'd face, I think. Just carefully mark things as you go and you should be fine.
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James,
I believe that and I really appreciate the good advice. I might endup taking the rear down.
But I just would want to be able to judge if it is also possible if I remove only the pivotting right axle, while the differential and left axle stays under the car.
Many thanks, Rudy
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This may be possible to do but I believe it will be with much difficulty especially when it comes time to put it all back together. That right side a le tube is very heavy ans awkward to handle. Keeping this all aligned as you drive the pivot pin is a chore enough when you have the whole unit out on the shop floor. Perhaps Joe A or Dan have done this but I know from my experience that It would have been a real bear to wrestle with withe unit on the car. My two cents.
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Today I removed the complete rear axle from the car. (took my 3 hours more).Then I examined further . See the attached photo. Bolt had came loose and the universal joint is broken. That was the cause. Glad I opened the whole thing.
I will look now for this spare part. I wonder if I not better buy original Mercedes part (if avaliable). Don't want to lose quality on this centerpiece. Or are they same quality?
Now it is also tempting to change the crown wheel and pinion in oder to have other ratio than my 4.08:1. Although the differential is still ok, but the issue of rpm at highway , you know.
I must say: thanks a lot for all the advices I got here. That gave me the courage to take the whole rear off. Now I am glad I did.
best regards, Rudy
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Good find! My 230SL parts book lists the joint as 112 350 00 28 but the SLS site suggests it's 111 350 00 28. Note these part numbers are for the uni joint alone, the entire slip joint is 110 350 02 13
There's some previous discussion of lower ratios for 230SL. Dan Caron suggests the 230SL is not as well suited to the lower ratio as the 250/280. I see SLS now sells a 3.25, is that the one you mentioned earlier in this thread? According to Dan's advice that may make your car a little sluggish but I guess it depends on how you like to drive. I'm fairly sure that 4.08 and 3.75 are the only factory ratios for the 230SL rear axle. The SLS page also indicates that's the case.
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Wow! That thing must have really been flailing around in there. I've heard these joints are very, very expensive if you can find them. I'm not sure what the interchangeability of these things are amongst the various rear axles, since some are designed to work with the clip and others are not. My guess is your best bet would be to find a complete good used axle. Unless you are a masochist, I would not attempt changing out the gears. There are a lot of very precise measurements that need to be taken to ensure the correct gear mesh between the crown and the pinion. Setting the backlash is also another adjustment that has to be done and you would also need to replace the crush sleeve that sits on the pinion shaft between the two pinion bearings. It's a big job! Let us know how you make out on this.
George
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Rudy,
I never saw one break off like that! Usually just the splinned end snaps off! You will find that any of those major parts are very, very expensive. You may want to find a good used universal/slip joint and replace your broken one. There are plenty of them out there used. Be careful there are at least three variations.
I looked up the current dealer price on the new 3,69 gears $2,000.00 US a slip joint/universal (not sure if it is the one you need) was $1,100.00 US. I would find a good used universal/slip joint used ($100.00) or change out the whole rear diff.
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'I never saw one break off like that! Usually just the splinned end snaps off! You will find that any of those major parts are very, very expensive. You may want to find a good used universal/slip joint and replace your broken one. There are plenty of them out there used. Be careful there are at least three variations. '
Which variations of this joint are there? I have a 4.08:1 diff. from 1966.
I see a complete rear for sale with a 3.75:1 diff. from a 230 sl 1964 in California. Is anubody in the neighborhood (probably LA area) to give it a check (user proforauto at ebay) ? That way I would also have a better differential ratio.
best regards, Rudy
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Rudy, I took another look at your picture of the joint. Looks like it is just the end that attaches to the universal cross and crown gear that is gone. If you can't find the entire clipless type joint, you may be able to salvage just this end piece off a unit that has the clips. Only reason I mention this is that there are probably more clip type rears out there than the clipless type. I can't. Vouch for the compatibility issues but the clip itself is associated with the sliding mechanism which is inside the unit on the left side of your picture. If the slider is otherwise good it is worth a try. Problem I see if you just try to replace the complete universal with a unit that requires a clip is that you will then most likely also need to install a different right axle shaft-one that uses a clip. Others may want to weigh in on this.
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I think they all have the slider in the assembly. The differences are the diameter and the splines in the various types, depending on year and model. Rudy, why not just replace the universal/slider assembly with a good used one? Much easier to ship and much less expensive.
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I agree Joe that would be the best way for him to go. My cmt above was more directed towards the ability of finding a complete universal/sliding unit that will be compatible with his right side axle shaft
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Porfor Auto have been on ebay a long time and their feedback is good, so they are probably ok. Their prices are high though.
It should not be too hard to find a 3,75 rear axle closer to home as that was the standard ratio for euro cars. 4,08 was standard in 230SL destined for the US, or with a 5-speed.
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Agree on finding something closer to home. The shipping to Europe on it outsized piece like that would be crazy not to mention the hassle with customs
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I think to go the following route:
-I buy a second hand universal/slider joint for 300 euro.
-I keep my complete rear axle , not to have to exchange the drum brakes and keep the matching number of the diff
- I change gears and pinion to a 3.25 (although 3.46 is also available, have to decide there)
To make my odo/speed correct I have some issues:
I know my car is a US model. They changed the indicator plate of the speedo to European: so speed is correct now for the 4,08, but odo is 1,6 off. If I change now the ratio to 3.25 or 3.46 will there be a solution to have the speed/odo corrected (Palo Alto)? Or too many combinated changes now?
Looking forward to the wisdom and experience,
Rudy
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Rudy,
Are you sure you can change the crown wheel from a 4,08 to 3,25 or even 3,46 and still fit it in the 4,08 pumpkin; there's quite a difference in size between the 4,08 and others? I would not have thought that possible. Who has advised you that this is doable?
A complete 3,46 axle from a donor sedan would set you back around $3-400 I would have thought. You'll just need to do some digging around. There were plenty of the things built. I went from a 4,08 to a 3,46, but was unaware that it was possible to simply swap the crown wheel, etc, hence my initial question.
I wouldn't worry too much about the datacard numbers too much. The key ones are the ones stamped on the soft top cover, bonnet and transmission mount in my book. The original engine would be great, but I can't see anyone getting too excited about a different rear axle, unless your car is concours, in which case I can imagine that there would be an impact on the price, although I know nothing about cars with this level of originality. I have all matching numbers, but will keep the old rear diff (probably until I get bored of lugging it around every time I move...).
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James,
it is a Belgian Mercedes specialist who confirmed me that it would fit in the 4,08. The 3.46 gear set would be new on the market. s$
Soon it would be at SLS as well.
How are your experiences with a 3.46? Yours is a manual gearbox as well? Would the 3.25 be a stretch too far?
best regards, Rudy
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That sounds interesting. Never heard of it. Are they saying that they can do a 3,46 and a 3,25 that would fit in the original 4,08 pumpkin?
I haven't driven my car much with the 3,46 fitted due to a ridiculous workload last year. I would say that the acceleration is less pronounced and the car labours more, so it's not as nippy as it was with the 4,08. However, it has given me a significant drop in rpm at cruising speed, and this is what I was after. Alfred has in a few threads posted a really useful graph that shows rpm x mph across the range of ratios. You should review that before making a decision so you can see what you're getting. My view would be that 3,25 would be less than ideal and would make the car less enjoyable to drive. That said, I seem to recall that at least one owner has taken that route.
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I finally found following parts : new original joint, 3.25 pinion and gear , all new rubber and bearing sets. So now I will go for the adventure of refurbishing the whole rear axle and differential. Wish me good luck.
Anyone has documentation about refurbishing differential ?