Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Drive train, fuel, suspension, steering & brakes => Topic started by: Wayne on January 07, 2014, 12:49:50
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Well here we go with an update,it looks like the block is finished and I'll post a picture for others to comment..it seems it's been worked on before and the inserts are badly fitted compromising the water distribution around both the head area and engine itself
I compared both a 69 and 71 head and there are differences,specifically the water slot lengths between each barrel,se below
I hope you can see what's mean by the damage which has been done during past repairs
Thanks
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See pictures attached of block beyond repair
Slots between barrels appear to have been altered and inserts appear to allow water to breach the varnish parts of the block
Having compared two blocks from 69 and 71 they do appear different,especially the size of slot between the barrels
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Just to add a little confusion I've had lengthy discussion with Metric Motors today and they were in possession of the various pictures.
They studied the pictures and said the block is standard factory fit,with inserts and slots as standard,they advised this was a short production run of an upgrade and many engine shops will never have seen this before,
So my dilemma,
Do I just import a short block and sell the bits I have left over
Do I take the block for a second opinion to another uk engine shop
Do I accept the alternative block on offer and scrap my old one
Do I request they skim the head and test it fully before writing it off
If I post this under another section of this site am I likely to get more response to the block images.
Maybe I'm in danger of having a little knowledge which is dangerous,however I just don't want to scrap something which potentially could be usable
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I think the answer is fairly obvious that you should take it to a second facility and get another opinion. It is the initial cheapest option at this point and could save you a bucket load. Can I suggest you use Colin Fern (stickandruddrrman) who has a good reputation around here and several recommendations from other members.
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Gary,
Many thanks for your reply.
I have to say each time following a conversation with Martin the actual mechanic working on my car I come away feeling more comfortable,he seems knowledgable and very helpful. However I'm a little lost after checking an email from Tony at Crewe stating the following,
"The block has had inserts fitted for the head bolts but these inserts are intruding into the waterways"
These inserts are factory fitted I'm told so I think I'm right to question the situation
Again I was told today that the inserts are unserviceable and are what is causing the problem of water into the barrels
Dear oh dear round in circles but thanks for the replies
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I have a cylinder block just like yours, I do know that in the 70s we fitted a new block to this car, inside the slots are metal inserts, I have tried to find out why MB fitted these inserts but have not been successful, JA17 has seen them before but says he removed them, the good doctor has not seen them before, only Al Leffering has seen them and he says they were a modification and should be left in situ, when I eventually re-build the engine I will leave them installed. Your inserts are not fitted someone must have removed them in the past.
I have some pictures available that I will ask Alfred to post you can then compare them.
Your man at Crewe will not have any experience of these I feel sure.
Eric.
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Eric,
Many thanks for your reply,this is starting to make me feel better for asking more questions
Any pictures to compare would be really useful as I can send them on to the shop
Crewe have now said the barrels are shot so the block surface and inserts will have no bearing on the outcome.i did ask them if the block or barrels had been skimmed before but no answer,they just said they cannot re sleeve them.
Seems all a bit final to me
Anyway many thanks and I'll wait for the pictures
Wayne
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Hello Wayne,
When you talk about barrels I assume you mean the cylinder bore, are they saying it has been bored to maximum, then if so it can be sleeved, but a different block would be a better solution.
With regard to the slots they are just like the ones in my block so that should not be a problem.
As a matter of interest this modified block requires longer head bolts, I have just purchased a set from MB.
You must insist that they inform you what dimensions the cylinder bores are, they can easily tell you because the information that will help you is stamped on the pistons.
The pictures have been sent to Alfred and will appear later this afternoon. {Done!}
How much are they asking for another block?
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Hi Eric
Thanks for the detailed reply
I have no measurements whatsoever,just simply the block is finished due to the cylinder bore being shot,I'm advised they cannot be re sleeved due to how thin the metal is between the cylinder bores. They tell me sleeving is not an option as they can't enlarge enough to fit a piston.
I can't get an answer on the price of the block,I'm still waiting,they say they have to machine it to see if it's any good first,however,they tell me the pistons have been ordered from the USA,seems very odd when they don't even know if the block can be used or it can be machined to an adequate standard
Now I'm lost again ha ha
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What do they mean -! the bore is shot ! I think you will have to speak with the MD to get the answers you require.
Are you a member of the Mercedes Benz Club ? There is a company in Manchester that gets good revues,( it may be time to go to plan B ) there name is Gott or Gratt, I feel sure one of our UK members here will know the company I am referring to.
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Eric many thanks for the info and pictures,really useful and are the same as mine apart from the slots being blocked or filled with something?
This I believe us how the head left MB factory yet Crewe tell me otherwise
I will ask for the measurements anyway and see how we go. I may purchase a long block now and keep the old engine and have it inspected elsewhere and rebuilt if possible,if not then it has many spare parts
I know the place in manchester and will speak with them,I have spoken before and sent email but their communication wasn't that good which is why I went to Crewe.
Looking at this forum and others it appears metric in the usa are highly regarded,it's not a cheap option but fully recon unit arrives ready to drop in at about £7000 uk
I'm going to have a think and see what they say re the block and will report back with more info
Many thanks
W
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Define "unit". There may well be cheaper options available from equally good engine builders in Europe. If you need a hand talking to someone in Germany who I can personally recommend, PM me and I'll see if I can help you with your engine.
Sending something to the US from the UK or Europe is not necessary to achieve a good result.
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James
Thanks for the reply
To all who have sent private messages so far many thanks, it appears what I've heard via private messages is pretty accurate
Can someone advise how long it would take a specialist mechanic to do the following
1/ Remove the engine from the car (280 sl)
2 / Strip the engine for a rebuild following removal from the car
The gearbox is already removed from the car and on a bench
1/ How many hours to strip, clean, rebuild and fit new friction plates and gaskets and filters
Anyone provide an estimate to complete the gearbox work ?
I now have the quotes for used items which would be an addition to the remanufacture.
1/ Cylinder head £800
2/ Block £1,200
(A nice round £2,000)
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That's a good idea as it's now gone off the original topic
Now more focused on the engine issue I hope my experience and the picture evidence will help others for years to come
W
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Here's the hours taken to carry out work so far by Crewe
Finally got some figures relating to my invoice after numerous requests ,will provide more detail once my updated invoice has been broken down further
This does seem excessive considering an experienced mechanic is stripping the car or am I missing something
Remove engine from car 12 hours
Strip the removed engine to bare block 15.5 hours
Strip head 2 hours
Total 29.5 hours
Now I had other work carried out whilst the car has been standing,see below.
Diff oil change 1 hour
Check beaks and free up callipers 8.5 hours
Total 9.5 hours
So the total of my first invoice adds up miraculously to 1 working week,circa 39 hours.
Now I'm no mechanic but I'm struggling to understand the maths in terms of labour for the work involved.basically I'm in need of someone to give me ball park hours to carry out the above
Considering this is the first invoice after numerous requests and it was rushed out I'm having to question it,however,I don't wish to question something which may well be accurate
Any help appreciated
Thanks
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Remove engine from car: 6 hours.
Strip engine: It depends on what standard you're looking for. To just strip for overhaul is nowhere near the same as to strip for "as new" aesthetically but assuming just strip for overhaul then about 4 hours assuming no dramas.
Strip head: 1 hour.
Diff oil change: 0.4 hours
Check brakes and free up calipers: Difficult to say but to change all four calipers (assuming this is a 280) and hoses should take no more than four hours.
Naturally these are times for a professional who knows what he is doing.
Now, having said that, if you came to me and wanted an engine built to the highest possible standard, including balancing and aesthetics, I would be quoting you 10k + VAT.
This would include all new gears, bearings, chain, guides, seals, pump overhaul, checked/replaced injectors, engine & gearbox mounts, front sub-frame mounts and a 123 ignition. (A better than new engine).
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Hello Wayne,
The early and late blocks are different. In addition the latest version factory replacement block is also a bit different. So you can find three variations. The last two are virtually the same with some minor improvements in the latest. The latest printing of the later BBB covers a lot of variations, changes and improvements in these M130 engines. You are correct about the head bolts being longer in the latest version. This is also covered in the latest BBB.
As far as the metal strip inserts in the slots of the block of new units coming from the factory, we have not yet produced a good explanation of their purpose. I tend to believe they are for re-enforcing the thin walls during shipping or machining at the factory. I would guess they are meant to be removed. Other experienced and knowledgeable on the site think they should stay in place? Looks to me like they could move and partially block a water passage after the engine warms. We need some definite factory documentation on these. Anyone?
Original factory piston rings are very hard. Cylinders usually wear before the piston rings are spent. Cylinders in the M130 engine can be bored to clean up wear and restore the factory tolerances when the oversize pistons and rings are installed. The cylinders can be bored in .5mm increments or a total 1.5mm on these M130 blocks. This results in three possible over-sizes. Often times cylinder wear will require skipping the first oversize and going straight to the second over-size (1.0mm) in order to clean up the wear in the cylinders. Just replacing the piston rings on standard pistons is usually not successful on these engines. You end up with perfectly round piston rings in worn "egg-shaped" cylinders. The result is high oil consumption. Boring the cylinders and using new oversize piston assemblies is usually required for good long-lasting results.
Mercedes specs do not allow much cylinder wear before they specify boring and oversize piston assemblies. Follow the book this is critical. Also the piston to cylinder clearance specification is much tighter in these engines than many others manufacturers. Machine shops will tend to make the clearance looser. They should be directed to use the factory specification for piston to cylinder clearance. The steel bands cast into the squirts of the original equipment alluminum pistons, allows for a tighter fit, but it makes the pistons expensive to manufacture.
Working with a high quality, experienced machine shop with state of the art equipment and processes, is critical to success. Supply them with all the critical factory documentation and tolerances so no guess work is involved.
Also do not take one machine shops analysis of the situation as absolute. Other machine shops may have more advanced equipment, processes and capabilities. Do some research and get more opinions.
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Thanks for your detailed reply,this is really helpful as it confirms my thoughts re the hours spent on labour
It is a very experienced mechanic working on the car and the second set of hours charged are on top of engine removal.
It's simply an engine sat on a bench being stripped to the bare block ready for remanufacture......15.5 hours ?
I have requested a detailed breakdown of the hours but it's strange it works to just about a working week
So my next move......I'm not quite sure,I would like a nice new engine but sadly yours is just too expensive for me,I'm not needing concourse,just an engine which will run and do the job. On top of the £10,000 I have VAT and all the ancillaries,oh and a couple of grand for gearbox rebuild if it's needed.....oh and the other bits to get it MOT standard so it can be registered.
Do I want to import from metrics in the USA,I'm not sure,however,I'm sure you have made good reference to them in a past post. For a long block I work the cost to about £7,000, fully imported. Plus ancillaries and labour to rebuild and get running....maybe £2,000.
I've yet to find a uk firm who can supply a new recon motor,saying that I'll have to get a second opinion on my own head and block when I get it all back,I guess in boxes of bits......
One of the big problems is I'm based manchester and I've no garage,just a couple of parking spaces which are taken up,I guess I best start looking for a lock up tonight
In fair I'm looking for the most cost effective solution,not cheap but value for money,if I get that I'll move forward
Thanks
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Ja many thanks for the info
Having discussed this with Metric in the USA who advise me they only do Mercedes engines and nothing else they say this is indeed a factory fit,I quote their words
Metric USA
Per the attached example photos – the inserts installed into the block are in fact original from the factory during production.
While rare and just a short run – we have seen enough of them in our short 34 years in business doing only Mercedes-Benz engines to have given them a nick-name: “280 insert block” and we treat them differently as they require a different length head bolt configuration etc. Some insert blocks had the slots filled (per attached example photo) and some did not (as in the case of your block – or they had been removed).
Crewe advised me this is not factory fit and that the slots are aftermarket and had breach the waterways......so that' shows the power of the forum it's demonstrated that they don't always know what they are talking about
I'll try and work out how to get the pics on the site for future reference
W
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Picture as supplied by Metric of the USA
Bare block inserts and fillers
It would be interesting to see if the fillers are required or not
W
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Yes, the thread inserts are used in the third version requiring the longer head bolts. This feature is described in the late BBB with all the supplementary information. They were meant as a strengthening feature for the head bolt threads. In my own personal experience, I remember removing a brand new factory short block from its wooden crate back in 1974 for installation in a 280SL. The unit came direct from Mercedes. I still have the nicely made crate with MB Logo etc stenciled on the outside. Anyway this replacement block had all the latest changes made to the M130 engine. These included the thread inserts, the larger diameter oil supply line to the IP, newest main bearing configuration, etc. It also had the strips,"fillers" in the water jacket, which we removed before installation. My question is about the metal strips " fillers" in the water jacket. We would like to see some factory documentation on weather they are meant to remain in the block or should be removed. Everyone has an opinion, we would like to see some factual documentation on these. Earlier engine blocks did not have these strips at all. My guess would be that they were temporarily used for shipping or machining?
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Ja,
I'm going for a second opinion but I'm confused because the repair shop may not know if the inserts should be in or out,from what you say they should be out but confirmation would be useful
It will be interesting if I find a repair shop which can repair my block,especially if they can supply the fillers or advise of their needs
I do hope thus thread will help others further down the line
All replies are appreciated
Thanks
W
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Hello Wayne,
Possibly Metrics may have some information on these inserts. Looks to me that they may have just been a temporary insert to re-enforce the thin walls of the block during the machining and shipping operations. Looks like they partially block the critical water jacket if left in place. Some actual factory information would be best.
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I wonder if Achim would be able to get this info: from his German friends.
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Joe,
One would expect Mercedes to have clear instruction for removal of the waterjacket inserts come with
their crated short blocks, if that really was their intention.
My engine guy (very experienced pagoda engine rebuilder) had an explanation for why he believes that they should be left in place.
Left in there they reinforce the edges of the wider waterjackets avoiding the edges to crack with heat expansion stress. (he has seen this happen rendering the engine block useless)
Leaving sufficient waterflow since the waterjackets go quite deep down, and no water is blocked from entering
the head since there is no water passage in the gasket/head there. Kind of made sense to me.
Then again these are opinions only, no factory documentation found.
Hans
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Sounds logical, but it would be nice to know for sure, since all the earlier blocks did not have these. I figure there are some instructions or an explanation somewhere. These things are often covered in a service bulletin or a supplement to factory workshop manual. In my 45 of experience I have never seen the breakage at this area. The metal strips do partially block the round cooing passages going up into the head on each end. Just would like to know for sure.
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My two-penneth..
280 heads are getting harder and harder to come by so £800 for a reconditioned one is a good price. I paid about that for one this time last year and then paid for it to be stripped/cleaned etc prior to rebuild. It was hard to find then
There's little worse than feeling that you're not trusting what you're being told/billed for. My sympathies.
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James thanks for the info
I'm going to post the invoice when I've sorted it so anyone can make comment if they wish
Just adding some bits up,1 hours labour for discussing the job with mechanic and 1 hours labour for packing the parts up....seems like many hours to strip an engine out and break it down, many more than any other quote from this and other forums. Its almost funny but they don't keep a timesheet or up to date log of time spent on the car, its all errr what have we done and when and eeerrrr how much should we charge.CLOWNS
The head and block may appear cheap but they could potentially be subsidised by labour in other area...I'm not sure anyone would ever do that but who knows!!!!!
Sadly its the trust issue which eats away, when you get 3 prices for the same job over one week by the same person you worry. When you get told your engine is knackered and has none standard inserts which have been added and are intruding into the waterways you worry, then you get told this is a standard engine which demonstrates the shop doesn't understand the engine.......forgive me but if I'm to part with 10k or whatever I want specific information on which to base a decision.
I'm currently looking at two options
import from Metrics I the USA and be done, they get excellent feedback on the forum from everyone who bought from them
install a 280 SE motor and move on, I'm looking at a donor car which I can butcher for lots of other bits too.
Now I need to find storage and transport until I award the work to a local garage dealing in Mercs
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Hello Wayne,
Very difficult situation. There are " book times" published on all these procedures. They are meant to aid the estimate of costs and labor for these jobs. Of coarse these "book times" are meant to be met by factory trained, experienced technicians, in ideal working conditions, with all the special tools, and on new vehicles.
Naturally no one wants to pay an inexperienced mechanic to learn while you're paying. Finding good experienced shops with reasonable rates is getting harder to find as time goes on. The unfamiliar and inexperienced may quote many more hours to be safely protected from the unknown. Only you can determine what your situation is for sure. Good communication is the key.
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Some people think I'm expensive but as each day goes buy I think that given that I know what I'm doing AND I'm honest/ethical then perhaps I'm too cheap!
I certainly do charge a premium because I have been working exclusively on Mercedes cars for 35 years now and have seen thousands of stories like this one but my premium is because I only expect to give the absolute best service.
Youy pays your money you takes your choice.
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Hi Jo,
The labor rates for various jobs was exactly what I was looking for,sadly to no avail.
It's funny you mention communication because that's what I wanted so I could be up yo date with both costs and progress,in terms of my visit to the shop I was made to feel I wasn't wanted and in terms of progress and invoicing it was like drawing blood from a stone. I did post before Xmas when I had doubts and they came to fruition recently,hence my stopping work.
I've been looking on various sites for a doner car and noticed the SL shop have a project LHD at a start cost of £15000. Be interesting to see the end cost on this
Sticky rudder
I'm sure your work is good but not everyone has that as a budget and wants work to your high standard,I have other work on the car as it needs to be taken to mot standard before I can even register it,I reckon I could add another 5,000 on top of your £10,000 plus £2,000 VAT. I can spend as much as is needed but then that's not sensible,there has to be value, you never know I maybe posting one fine motor on here sometime I the near future.......got to keep positive hey
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The people with the biggest marketing budgets are not necessarily what they seem................
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I've spent hours on thus forum over the last month quite a bit if time over the last few day-searching alternative engines from se280
I am correct in thinking I can use a W108 engine only as a replacement,1968 to 72 ,is this just the 280 se engine or are there other versions of the 280 .?
I'm actually thinking of a donor car and have seen couple which are still runners so can be tested before purchase
As the doner car has lots of other bits under the bonnet it May cut my overall spend down
Sticky rudder
the most expensive is not always the best or what it seems too,it's what's appropriate to your personal needs
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The W108 engine should be a straight swap, only the tachometer gear drive and the aluminum engine support arms on either side need to be switched over. If you can source an engine from a good running parts car for a reasonable price that is what I would do if I were you.
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... or are there other versions of the 280 .?
Did you read this here: http://www.sl113.org/wiki/DataCard/EngineNumber
Your car needs a M130-type engine but among those not all are suitable. Those with a carburetor are obviously not.
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When choosing a restorer way back when (1999-2000) I knew nothing about Mercedes-Benz or this SL I inherited. I went about to learn. Quickly the list of restorers came down to a short list. A couple were way far out there in terms of cost--Hatch & Sons in Massachusetts, and Paul Russell, too. I concentrated on the second tier. One person trying to "sell" me on the job provided a long detailed list of what he prepared for a restoration candidate. Included was nearly a full page on the starter motor.
So, let's talk communication. Each and every task on restoring the starter motor was detailed; decision points were noted (repair, refurbish, refinish, replace) and the total time was just south of 4 hours. Total estimated cost was nearly $400.00.
I decided that for the starter motor, such detail isn't necessary neither is the cost. Go to an auto electric place where they'll go over it for about $75 (at the time) or swap for a factory rebuilt at a parts dealer for about $125.00.
I went with a guy who worked with me and lots of stuff like this (starter, alternator, engine rebuild, brakes, instruments) were sent out to the experts who focus on one thing.
The labor rate from my restorer varied quite a bit: teardown stuff and most reassembly was at a lower rate; body work at a higher rate; and mechanical the highest. He didn't have an $85 an hour mechanic taking out lights; the lower cost young help did the grunt work.
It pays to do your homework and find someone you can be comfortable with, and everyone's needs and comfort level is different.
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Gents thanks for the replies,most helpful
I'm tempted to pack thus car away in a garage for a bit but I'm finding I'm a bit hooked on gathering information and seeing the end if the project
I've searched the net and not many for sale apart from a couple at £7000 which is too much for a doner,there is a 280 se in Belgium but it's a 280 se berlina so don't know if engine will fit,that's about £ 5,000. I am missing lots of bits so if I can get loads on a doner the it could be a good option..
I think I'm going to have to get myself a garage so I can be involved and not rely on others so much
Great help and I think I've nearly read this forum start to finish out of pure interest
W
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Cees
I've read there are many of the engine parts on the 280 se which are interchangeable with the 280sl, the reason I ask is the doner I may have found has everything I need pand could be really useful. I've read lots of the running gear fits as well as many of the engine parts. Sad the auto box doesn't drop in though.
If I can identify all the shared parts then I can strip and keep for the long term,I did find a thread on here but not as much info as I would have liked
Thanks
W
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Actually the early 280-SE sedans used the same transmission as the W113 cars. But the sedans changed to a new version transmission in 1969 sometime. The W113 SLs kept the early version transmission. As Cees mentioned, the aluminum engine motor mount supports are a critical item unique to the W113 cars. You can install the 280SE engine as long as you switch these. The transmission must be the early version to work in the W113 cars. The easiest way to identify the early transmission is that it has a 16 bolt oil pan and the later transmission has a four bolt oil pan. A few other items on the sedan engines are slightly different but not critical. Be aware that there is an early 280 engine and a late 280 engine The heads and cylinder blocks of these are not interchangeable, no matter if it is an SL or sedan. Early 280 heads must be used with early 280 blocks and late 280 heads must be used with late 280 blocks. Both early and late engine assemblies are correct for your W113 SL depending on production date. The SL engine blocks do have a different part number since they have a tachometer drive which the sedan blocks do not. There are some other items which are unique. These unique items bolt on or off. Another example is the crankshaft pulleys are different on the sedans in most cases.
These 280SE engines were used in six cylinder sedans, 1968-1972 (W108 chassis). After 1972 the six cylinder 280SE models were equiped with a different twin cam engine (M110) and is not usable in a W113. So if you are looking for a sedan donor for a 280SL find a (W108 chassis) 280SE six cylinder sedan 1968-1972. Some rarer six cylinder sedans, coupes, cabs, (W109, W111, W109 Chassis)of the era also used the M130 engine. Always double check the engine number to verify it is a good donor!
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Hi,
The widened cooling slots and the related inserts are documented in the (German) Mercedes workshop manual I have - while the metal strips aren't.
(But I agree in guessing they're meant to reinforce the cylinder wall once the slot had been widened and they should be left in place. If they were only needed for production they would have been removed prior to shipping the replacement short blocks.)
This is what I found:
Werkstatt-Handbuch
PKW-Typen ab 1968 Baureihe 108-113
Wartung, Einstellung und Montage
Seiten 01-11/4 & 01-11/5 im Nachtrag 3 / Erweiterung Juli 1973
Workshop manual
Passenger cars starting from 1968, 108-113 series
Maintenance, adjustment and assembly
Pages 01-11/4 & 01-11/5 of the addendum/extension July 1973
(Scan of German version attached)
Translation:
Cooling slots in cylinder crank case / engine block
Vehicles concerned:
280SL/8
Introduced to series production from chassis number 016450 on.
Type 280SL/8 got deeper and thus wider cooling slots in the cylinder crank case.
That way more favorable temperatures in the combustion chamber area can be achieved.
The deeper resp. wider cooling slots reach into the cylinder head bolt's threaded holes in the engine block.
Thus these threaded holes got inserts with Allen screws wrench size 12mm (see cross section A-B, pos. 1, drawing 01-11/9). The insert's first thread sits approx. 5mm deeper than on engines without the widened cooling slots. Thus the cylinder head bolts have bee extended to 115 and 145mm.
(http://Cooling_slots_M130_late_2.jpg)
Regards,
Gerd
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Hello Gerd,
I am not so convinced about the inserts remaining in place. All the latest engineering drawings (sections and plans) you posted, show all the new changes (thread inserts, larger slots etc.) But the metal strips are not shown. I can't understand the logic of Mercedes making the slots and water passages larger then partially blocking them with the metal strips. In addition leaving the metal strips in place would transfer the heat from the hot spot at the top of one cylinder to the hot spot at the top of the adjacent cylinder. Lastly leaving the inserts out, and leaving open metal slot at the top of each cylinder helps keep the thin profile of the head gasket in place by letting it slightly "extrude" into the top of the open slot. I have the latest version of the BBB with all the supplements and the metal strips do not appear and are not mentioned anywhere.
Could it be that after the slots were machined in between the cylinders at the factory, the metal strips were installed to protect the thin walls from breaking or vibrating while the cylinders were bored and the top deck of the block was milled? The metal strips were then left in place to protect the vulnerable thin metal from breakage during shipping and handling. They are easily removed during assembly? With the slots open the cooling and water flow is improved and the head gasket is "keyed" into place between the cylinders as the head is torqued.
On the other side of the argument.......as the slots became wider, possibly the metal strips were added to keep the head gasket from "extruding" too far down into the slot? Of coarse this does not explain why the factory literature and drawings do not show or document the metal strips.
It would be nice not to have to guess on this. Lets see some actual documentation.
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It's an interesting conundrum.
My gut feeling is that the strips are need to add structural support to the cylinders after the slots have been formed. Perhaps it's just not possible to make the slots without compromising the local rigidity and these strips are inserted to try and recover some of that lost rigidity.
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For completeness sake here is the corresponding text that Gerd posted in the English workshop manual that MB provided, addendum 1973.
Also, none of the spare parts lists mention these strips and no part numbers are known for them.
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Can someone post this question on the German site? Possibly it's been addressed there, or someone knows someone who might still know for sure?
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Hi,
I don't have any Mercedes drawing showing the "filler", too, but - looking at the picture shown by Wayne above - the drawing in the workshop manual doesn't seem to properly reflect what's been finally built:
As far as I can see, there's a "recess" in the coolant hole - it seems to be approx. 4...5mm deep and I guess the "filler" will just have the same "depth" - i.e. it won't eat up too much of the extended water pocket, there's still a significant gain compared to the previous versions.
(Perhaps somebody having a block with a "filler" may check recess and "filler height" and confirm or reject my assumption...)
Adding my "assumed" filler into the drawing, it gets approx. the same width as the cast iron between the cylinders underneath - see picture below.
Regards,
Gerd
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I think your logic is good also Stick and Gerd. Would be best to know for sure.
Another thought, the later M110 engine (twin cam 280SE) uses the same style block, with slots and thread inserts. It has no metal strips.
Also, I believe the metal strips in the head are milled when the block is milled on the top deck. I recall seeing the matched machining marks.
Yes Alfred, I would guess Mercedes would supply these as a replacement part if they were meant to stay, as some could get corroded, damaged or lost.
The mystery continues~
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It looks as though we are getting nearer to solving the problem
'should they stay or should they go'
I've just written a complaint to Crewe who wrote my engine off without even knowing if the block was original or remanafactured, in their words the inserts are aftermarket and breach the water ways....I'm not happy I'm paying over 2300 for nothing more than a car in bits and boxes and no further forward.
In this respect I'm glad this has become a useful thread for others to follow, what it does show is that no one yet has come up with a specific answer and some experts charge over 10 k for an engine rebuild......maybe the most expensive is not all what it seems
I'll get some close up shots when I get the engine back and see if I can get measurements too, hopefully this will provide more info. Don't hold your breath though as there could be a battle before I get the car back
Best price for a donor car so far is 4500 for a 72 and a good runner with history , best price for used se engine 2000 complete
Wayne
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Wayne, there is only a very small percentage of these M130 engines that are the very latest versions. Very few were ever used and only in the latest W113 cars as they came from the factory. Most were supplied as replacement engine blocks for the sedans and SLs. This latest version incorporated all the improvements in design as supplied it the latest 280SE sedans which were produced into 1972 after the end of the W113 production. I am not surprised that this information is new to some. However, with the exception of the strips, these changes are documented in the latest version BBB or its supplements (1972).
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I received the block that you see in post # seven back from the machine shop after it had been re-bored, the holes in the block at nearly either end of the slot have been drilled out to 7mm, the depth of the resultant hole is 7mm, the insert sits on the bottom of the ridge and the top is flush with the block face.
I have a 280se block assembly and the holes at the ends of the slots is 6mm (no inserts fitted).
With the increase in hole size I would have thought that the flow of coolant would not be affected by the presence of the inserts.
Do we have anyone with direct access to MB classic centre in Stuttgart that could ask the question and get the answer, I feel sure a lot of members would like to know why the inserts were fitted.
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... However, with the exception of the strips, these changes are documented in the latest version BBB or its supplements (1972).
More than 7,000 280SL were manufactured with these modifications after the production breakpoint (VIN 016450). Thus, another way of finding out whether MB added these inserts for protection only during manufacturing and/or shipping as Joe writes is to open up one of these last year 280SLs but with an original untouched M130.983 motor and check whether the inserts are there or not.
Given that so many cars were produced with these changes yet the inserts are noticed so rarely my bet is that they represent exchange blocks where the installer did not remove them.
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If they were meant to be removed then why go to the trouble of drilling a larger hole and counter sinking it to accept the insert ??
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Eric,
do you mean the threaded inserts into the holes or the metal strips in the slots?
At the moment we are discussing the strips in the slots not the threaded inserts.
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Yes, I am also discussing the metal inserts as per my picture on reply # 7 ( you kindly posted it for me).
Have a look at reply # 44 from Gerd he uses the word filler I use the word insert.
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Then my answer to your question "If they were meant to be removed then why go to the trouble of drilling ...." is simply what MB states in addendum:
"Deeper and thus wider cooling slots were provided in the cylinder crankcase of type 280 SL/8. Thus more favorable temperatures are obtained in the combustion chamber region."
Does not sound like they were drilled deeper to accept fillers/inserts/strips what ever we may call them, especially when the filler makes the passage narrower again.
Anyway lets find an original late untouched M130 engine and open it up. ;)
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Interesting discussion. I've never seen these inserts but I am aware that the late engines are quite a bit different than the earlier 280SE version. There are things that I've never seen and I'm sure I've seen things that no one else has - big deal 8). I'm supposed to see things, if they're there to see. ;)
As for pulling an engine in 6 hours? I did it once in about 7 hours all by myself, which I think is pretty good as it was an auto trans car. This engine was clean and not rusty. I had to work my ass off to do it in that amount of time, BTW.
I remove the manifolds and injection lines before pulling the engine. Sometimes this stuff won't come apart and the exhaust pipes are rusted into the exhaust manifolds. So yeah, six hours with some help to lift the engine out sounds about right if everything comes apart OK. A day and half if it's the dog's breakfast isn't beyond acceptable either. Or, I could twist off bolts and damage stuff along the way and let the machine shop take care of it, or you, for a price.
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Many years ago I quoted somebody £350 to remove & refit their 500SEL M117 engine, repair No.8 plug thread.
He dropped the car off at 9AM and at 4PM I rang him to say the car's ready.
He came to collect but refused to pay the £350.00 "because I only dropped it off at 9 this morning, I'm not paying you £350.00 for a day's work".
I haven't made that mistake since..........
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Good strategy Alfred, now finding someone with a very late engine that is ready to be opened up!
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Good strategy Alfred, now finding someone with a very late engine that is ready to be opened up!
Joe, as you've suggested earlier, I think the only way to know the facts about these inserts is to get this documented from Mercedes.
Opening one engine even if original latest version m130 would not really prove much.
A reason for the inserts could be, if a late factory exchange engine block with the wider water jackets were bored to oversize thus
further thinning the cylinderwalls, they deemed it necessary to reinforce the waterchannels with the metalstrips.
That could explain why the inserts would not be found in every late engine block.
Hans
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Hello Hans,
Yes, I agree, some documentation would be best. However, I did see these strips with my own eyes, in a standard bore block, as delivered from Mercedes back in 1974. I took the block out of the factory crate myself. After removing the strips I assembled and installed the engine :o and with no consequence.
The fact that replacement strips do not seem to have ever been available, from Mercedes, as a replacement part in case of loss or damage is also a mystery.
In addition, without documentation, there is no way to tell for sure that the metal inserts were used in all the latest engines? Possibly the production run of the late engines originated without them, then they were added later in the production of the later blocks, when problems arose?
mystery continues~
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If you stated your price at the outset how can someone challenge your fee, certainly not what I would do.
I wonder how many garages keep time sheets of exactly what work has been carried out , this us what I do in my business, it's simple, the time spent plus cost of ancillaries....no argument,all profit built I to the hourly rate. If not a fixed fee agreed at outset.
Sadly that doesn't seem the case from what I've seen so far..
Anyway I've come to agreement with crewe and hopefully my car us on its way to storage right now.
My experience so far doesn't fill me with confidence, I can however see why so many do their own work and learn how to do things without relying on professionals
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If you stated your price at the outset how can someone challenge your fee, certainly not what I would do.
I wonder how many garages keep time sheets of exactly what work has been carried out , this us what I do in my business, it's simple, the time spent plus cost of ancillaries....no argument,all profit built I to the hourly rate. If not a fixed fee agreed at outset.
Sadly that doesn't seem the case from what I've seen so far..
Anyway I've come to agreement with crewe and hopefully my car us on its way to storage right now.
My experience so far doesn't fill me with confidence, I can however see why so many do their own work and learn how to do things without relying on professionals
I have a flat rate on some jobs but most of it is time and material. We have a time clock for daily hours plus log books for each car we work on. It's amazing to me how many hours you can spend on a full restoration.
Some owners can do a lot on their own. If you have never rebuilt an engine before and have limited mechanical skills or equipment, it's best left to someone who knows. I used to assemble all of my cylinder heads in house, and I still could, but I now have my machine shop do it as a package. My time is better spent on other things.
Anyone who can do a whole car without relying on outside help probably wouldn't even bother to post here. :)
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So as yet no definitive answer for the inserts ?
Anyway I'm going for recon engine and auto transmission, bored of all the hassle , has anyone dealt with the following firm
http://mobil.german-spob.de/?&nr=2d558ec5b7f3a3922d610a7315162f69
Any positive feedback
I just want something to drop in no hassle
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Hello Wayne,
Are you referring to the thread inserts or the metal strips. The thread inserts on the latest version M130 are factory correct. So far we do not have any actual documentation or proof about the metal strips.
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Sorry ....I was referring to the metal inserts to see if anyone had the final answer
W
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I've had this from someone who has possession of my original engine,he is a machine shop and again has not seen this block with the inserts. HIs email below mentions the inserts and the fitting of liners but he's not quite sure if it will work due to slots in the block
His email,
Hi Wayne, the bore size is 87mm, this should also relate to the piston.
Having had a breif look at the drawing and measured the depth of the "slot" (32mm) i am a bit concerned that the liner won't have any support at the slot which could allow the liner to move at this point causing a failure.
Whilst we would theoretically be replacing material removed, thinwall liners aren't as strong as the block material when not supported,
I have made further enquiries and will let you as and when
Does anyone have any thoughts
Thanks
W
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87mm is second o/s, you could go to 87.5mm, this will depend on the amount of wear in the cylinders.
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Did we ever get a definitive answer on the strips in the slits between the cylinders in the block?
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No factual documentation as of this time.
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And Wayne spat the dummy and left.................... ::)