Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: bodyman1977 on November 19, 2013, 17:44:51
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I recently noticed a nice looking 230SL in my neighborhood that may be for sale. I stopped and spoke to the lady who owns it and she explained it was her husband’s car and he passed away about a year ago. The car has been in the garage for years (but was registered and inspected last year) and was moved out on the street to allow room for a contractor to come in and do some work. The guy next door has been driving the car occassionally but recent had surgery and can no longer help out. I asked if it was for sale and she said maybe and asked me to make an offer. The husband bought the car from the original owner in 1969 and has owned it ever since here in West Texas. It appears to be a European model as it has the Kmh speedometer and no side marker lights.
Here is what I know:
It’s a 1967 230SL
White exterior - repaint at some point and not a great job and would need to be redone, chrome is pitted/imperfect all over and left rear bumper has a dent, minor dents on deck lid and hood, has a tow hitch
Blue interior - driver’s seat is torn, wood on dash and hard top in rough shape, two temp control levers a broken, carpet is worn from getting in and out, inside chrome is pitted, and steering wheel is cracked
Car has a hard and soft top
Power steering
4 speed transmission (the shifter has a ton of slop when in gear)
Strait six engine looks to be original but I haven’t ran the numbers, has many leaks when looking at the car from the underside (from engine, transmission, and rear member)
No A/C
Tail lights have tape over the reverse lights so I think the lights may remain on or come on with other systems so it might have a wiring issue
Looks to have a new fuel pump and starter
Currently I asked to hear it run but she said there is something wrong with it and she would rather I didn’t until the two items are fixed. She couldn’t remember what the items were but she said minor items so I’m thinking points or coil. She is supposed to contact the mechanic and find out what the items were and let me know. The car is complete and shows no signs of rust that I can see (under hood, rockers, floors, rear sill, hard top, ect). I love the look of these cars and restore classics as a hobby but am not up to speed on what one of these that needs work will go for. I looked around on eBay, craigslist, and classics car forums and they seem to start around $20K for a complete car thats ready to go and can climb up to $40K pretty quick for a nice example but this one will need a complete overhaul to bring her back to her original glory. Assuming the car does run and runs well, what would be a reasonable offer to make? Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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Hello Bodyman,
From your description I would not pay more then $22K to $25K for that car since you can expect to dish out a similar amount to "bring her back to her original glory" or near to it as you stated in your post.
It be interesting what others have to say … we have some good people here on this forum that are far more familiar and qualefyed with this car then I am at this point in time since I only own one since May this year.
Good luck I hoe you can help the lady out and purchase the car then restore it and find a new owner.
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Hello Bodyman
Having just been through the partial restoration of my wife's 66 230 sl............I might suggest an offer of @15K. It is easy to pay too much for these cars.........so attractive and very cool...........they are very expensive to restore. Trying to make a profit from a project like this is difficult, even when you have a good skill set and a shop. The upside is that if you keep the car, in the fullness of time the appreciation will catch up and overtake your expenditures. Good luck!
Essell
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I agree with Essell. If you play much more than $15K, then the other costs will escalate the cost well beyond the end value..
Pete Lesler
W113SL
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Thank you for the feedback. I would plan on keeping this one if I get it as there is not much cooler than a 2 seater MB convertible that is fun to drive and wont kill you at the gas pump. My first thought was to offer $12K but I want to be fair to her as well. I will give this post a few more days but Im thinking $15K is a fair offer if I can get it to start and it runs good enough to drive for a few years. I read online they only made about 185 of the 1967 230SLs, pretty rare little car.
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Perhaps I'm a little optimistic...I might even go as high as $20k...
http://www.nadaguides.com/Classic-Cars/1967/Mercedes-Benz/230SL/2-Door-Roadster/Values
Here's my logic...IF (and its a big IF) it runs with good compression and no smoke and IF (and its a big IF) there is truly no rust (also checking panel fit for no sheet metal damage), I would guess even with the short comings you mentioned you could have a decent "driver" quality car for another $5K and possibly a very nice car for another $10K...that's also assuming you can take on some of the work yourself should you be inclined. If you can own it for $15k, great but I wouldn't walk away if she wants a little more. If you are looking for a big profit on the car, that could get tricky.
On the "rarity" piece....the 185 230SL cars produced in 1967 probably won't have possess any more value than those built in 1966 or 1965. Also, in the US, they marketed cars sold in September - December 1966 as 1967 models so technically a "1967" 230SL may not be as rare as one might think.
IMHO, when it comes to valuation on these cars, I believe that rust is #1 concern, mechanics #2 (including electrical), panel fit #3 and interior #4.
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It's amazing the value of these cars. The last project I got I bought out of a field for $2K (1971 Land Cruiser in picture below) so getting a project car for near $20K is new to me. With the end value of these cars being near $40K I guess its about right. Thanks again for all the information. I will find out in a week if she will allow me to purchase the car or if she will be giving it to one of her kids.
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Keep us posted.
Nice Land Cruiser, BTW!
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I would stick with $15k if you can confirm the body is solid. Which might be the case. That way you have a good base to pour ABSOLUTELY TONS OF MONEY INTO!
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At the level of 15-20k US$ you are safe as most likely the otherwise awful option of parting the car and sell pieces would cover the expense. Not that I advocate that option but it the floor, financially speaking.
If however the car is in a running state, 20k seems very low compared the levels seen recently in Europe.
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I have to agree with San … I think the $22 to $25K are more realistic.
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Thank you for saying that you want "to be fair" with the seller. I agree that $15k is a fair first offer, based on your description and the comments here. I paid a little less than that for mine. It ran fine and was complete but needed body work. I knew that it would cost me a fair bit more to improve, and I'm happy with the results so far. (Thanks, Dan!) As you have learned, there are lots of resources here. With your experience, you should be able to make the project turn out fantastic. Please continue to tell your story here!
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Get the name of the mechanic and go talk to him about the mechanicals of the car. He should have a good idea of the magnitude of minor and serious issues and you should ask him for a written quote on doing all the work. Subtract the cost of getting the mechanical issues resolved from the 15 to 20K. Give her a copy of the quote to show her kids its not all upside to take owner ship. Find out how emotionally attached she is. Maybe she has always hated the car and wouldn't miss it at all. Sounds like a really good find if you want a long term love afair with a great car. The car has to be in very very original condition to get 40K. You sound like you can see the body an interior investment it will take to get it to either a level you are happy owning or able to easily sell it at. Apparently, the prior owner used a mechanic to just keep it running rather than in the excellent condition it deserves. If you aren't a mechanic, the quote will tell you what it will take, along with your input to get the car above 20k. Go though the pics in this website of our cars and see why some of these little beauties get $40k.
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Again, thanks for all the advice on this. I went by today and spoke to her again and offered what I think is fair (I will let you all know if I get it early next week) and she is going to discuss it with her family. I did look it over a bit more and found the only rust I could next to the muffler as you can see in the pictures. This will have to be cut out for sure. Is this an indication that the entire rear sill will need to be cut off? There is this area of rust through and a small amount of surface rust, about the size of a nickel, on each rear quarter panel where the rear sill buts up against the quarters. I tried to poke through but is it very solid so it appears to be only surface. Other than that I don’t see any other rust. Also snapped a picture of how she looks where she sits. I know you have all seen hundreds of them but pictures are always fun. Thanks KevinC for the compliment on the Cruiser. My plan is to take this one to Maine and leaving it to drive in the summers as it is such an easy vehicle to work on. I will keep you all posted on the 230.
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Here's a great read for this situation...especially the "notorious for rust" part...
http://www.sl113.org/wiki/Buying/PrepurchaseEvaluation#Rust
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Get the name of the mechanic and go talk to him about the mechanicals of the car. He should have a good idea of the magnitude of minor and serious issues and you should ask him for a written quote on doing all the work. Subtract the cost of getting the mechanical issues resolved from the 15 to 20K. Give her a copy of the quote to show her kids its not all upside to take owner ship. Find out how emotionally attached she is. Maybe she has always hated the car and wouldn't miss it at all. Sounds like a really good find if you want a long term love afair with a great car. The car has to be in very very original condition to get 40K. You sound like you can see the body an interior investment it will take to get it to either a level you are happy owning or able to easily sell it at. Apparently, the prior owner used a mechanic to just keep it running rather than in the excellent condition it deserves. If you aren't a mechanic, the quote will tell you what it will take, along with your input to get the car above 20k. Go though the pics in this website of our cars and see why some of these little beauties get $40k.
Interesting discussion. The first thing I would tell anyone is these cars are under valued. 40K will get you an average car and not much more. 50 to 65K is robably more realistic in terms of a good car. What people want to pay is up to them but one should be both realistic and informed.
As for getting a quote on a car that hasn't been running for a long time? You won't get one from me. There are so many unseen and hidden things lurking in old cars that I believe it's dishonest to say how much it will be because it's always more than even the best educated guess. It really depends on how you approach it. If you can get it to the rolling restoration level then you can fix things as you go. I wouldn't worry about the paint or how it looks too much right now and concentrate on mechanicals for the first year of ownership.
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Hi Bodyman
Benz Doctor is so correct..........the mechanical aspect of these cars is so often overlooked. A 40 year old neglected car is an open ended question. Fuel system, suspension, engine, tranny and brakes should be addressed first..........the cosmetics later. For work you cannot do yourself, you must try and find and develope a relationship with a seasoned professional. Just take some time to work out a game plan and time line, knowing that 1 good top down drive validates all of your time and efforts.
Essell
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These cars have a very strong emotional appeal. The family may be attached but not know how much work is required to have a happy ownership. That is why I would not make an offer without paper work that approximates the amount of work it will take and the cost involved in ownership. That information can totally dis-sway an emotional adoption of a potentially free pagoda that appears to the casual observer to be a very desireable car. I can see the drip pan under the motor, they know it has problems but probably they have know idea how much has been neglected. Hopefully the mechanic has a good idea. I would not make an offer without getting the car to a knowledgable mechanic who can give you a comprehensive quate. And include a body cancer repair quote.
Then you are forwarned with some estmate of the reality of taking on the ownership and you can possibly pop any emotional bubles of delight over the possibility of getting Daddy's pagoda free.
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Interesting discussion. The first thing I would tell anyone is these cars are under valued.
As far as these cars being undervalued (at least presently)... I'm not certain if you can draw any conclusions from this or not but its worth bringing up...take a look at how Gooding & Company has valued the first 32 cars going up for auction in Scottsdale this January....it seems that you could by a nice 113 for about HALF of the cost of a Jaguar E Type, a Porsche 911 or a 190SL.... I am sure condition, mileage and options/rarity plays into it but half?
http://www.goodingco.com/vehicle/?status=upcoming
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You need to look under the car. If the car was repainted, some rust can have been repaired/masked. But the floor pan, an some specific areas as described in the link above, need to be looked at carefully. Rust is a huge issue on these cars and is expensive to fix.
Also, from the picture, there seem to be some frame fitted under the car, may be some kind of towing set-up?
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Hello Bodyman
My thinking is that if you have a comprehensive quote for all of the mechanicals, ie, engine, gearbox,suspension etc, you would in all likelyhood, not purchase the car. Of course as with any love affair,price is no object.
Essell
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I have made my offer and am waiting to see if she accepts or not. If she does, I will be taking it to a mechanic locally to see if they can give it a look over mechanically and I can get it on the lift to get a better look at the floors and the other high rust areas. Speaking of mechanics, does anyone have a recommended classic MB mechanics in the Abilene TX area? She is going to give me number for the mechanic/neighbor she had working on it to see what he has to say. Sadly it does look like they were only maintaining it to keep it going, not to keep it in great shape. I will go into the deal expecting to rebuild all mechanical items as this is an old car. With any luck I will be able drive it for a year or so but will have to wait and see. The frame under the back of he car is a tow hitch! I had to ask her what the towed with the car and she stated they towed a sail boat in the 1970s with the car. Bet that was something to see this car pulling a sail boat out of the lake! Thanks again for all the advice and great resources.
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I find the prospect that when the car was relatively young and although a nice car not precious, a young, stylish couple would hitch up their sailboat and go sailing absolutely charming!
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i would be interested inbuying the towing bar
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If you ever take the tow bar off I woul be interested in seeing how it attaches so I can make my own. I would like to tow a viintage motorcycle with mine.
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Today was the day I was going back to talk about finishing the deal on the car but sadly her oldest son want the car and will be shipping it to CA. Well sadly for me but good to see a family member get the car, hopefully he will put the time and money into it that it deserves. Thank you all again for the advice on the car, with any luck I will find one again someday and will be able to pick it up.
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BodyMan,
That is too sad then as you say good it will stay in the family. Perhaps you find a nice one here ---> http://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/carsforsale/
Check out the SL's for sale 1963 to 1971 :)
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Really is sad. I have fallen in love with the style of these cars. I was hoping to drive it to see if it was as much fun to drive as it is to look at. I will use the link to keep my search going.
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You can't give up now - offer the son your number in the event that if he ever tires of the car you are there with cash in hand. We are a small breed who actually like the car. If the son is a hot rod hemi kind of guy he may tire quickly and having your phone number handy may see the car into your hands someday. I run accross Pagodas all over. Only ever found a couple real deals (1/2 of what you would expect to pay) but they are out there.
When I was in my vintage motorcycle days I would post wanted adds in the local Craigslist, put notes on motorcycles and tell everyone I met that I was looking for vintage bike projects. I only kept 2 but went through 15+ and said no to 50+, just having fun with the "hunt". This was at a time when people said that vintage motorcycles (especially 60's Triumphs) are all restored and sitting in museums. I ended up with several non british bikes and traded several of those for a bottle of rum or an engine rebuild or a weekend vacation at a cabin or future consideration. You never know where one will show up. Now I am into inexpensive vintage watches (no solid gold - no rolexes) and they tend to follow me home all on their own. Still looking for a $25 70's Automatic Omega Seamaster with a broken glass and mismatched band.
Try putting a wanted add in your local craigslist - many people who have these cars are not computer savy but someone who is may rely your message to an owner. Cruise all of the body shops in your area and talk to the oldtimers - offer a finders fee - you gotta do something if you really want one of these.
You could also try this method:
Get the money needed into a bank account with easy access (number 1 rule - no financing toys - its gotta be cash). Then go find a dark corner away from electronic equipment and outside noise and make yourself comfortable. Close your eyes, relax and visualize an old autobody shop off the main strip a couple towns away with a couple broken down BMWs and a Volks bug outside - in the rear corner is a 1965 230sl missing the headlights and most of the paint, chrome removed, covered in sanding dust, interior 1/2 taken apart with all of the heavy lifting already done. The owner ran out of money and the shop owner wants it out of there and is willing to sell it for storage fees. Now go out and get your car.
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Bonnyboy,
Great post! I did post a wanted add on craigslist and contacted an add in CA for this one: http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lac/ctd/4215888070.html . I would much rather find a local car but do realize these are not as common as the cars I’m used to buying so I might have to expand my search. Speaking of the car in CA, does anyone know or have knowledge of the car? I tried to convince the son he should buy this one and I will buy this one and it will save on the shipping but no sale. I did get to hear the 230SL start today. Come to find out it had 2 broken spark plug wires. There was an issue installing one of the new spark plugs, looks like it got cross threaded at some point. For an engine with a quarter of a million miles it sounded great! Anyway, I appreciate the encouragement and will continue my search.
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I am the son from California who took the 1967 230 SL away that this blog is referring to. This was my father's car since the 1970s. He died 10 years ago and I could not bear to see the car leave the family.
After shipping it to SoCal, I visited the MB Classic Center near my office and they said that a full restoration would be more than $350,000 USD! A friend who restores 356 Porsches also told me that his average restoration is around $250,000 and the ari-colled Porsches are much less involved. Several other facilities in SoCal do beautiful "no limit" restorations, but they too will throw away every part that is not perfect and you will leave with a new re-manufactured car that looks like the one you brought in while they keep about 3 times the value of the finished project.
I took it to the 2 largest MB dealerships in the US and both studied it for a week or more and finally said they were not set up to service this age of car. Even though it may be technologically far less complex, the repair process involves logical diagnosis and manual reconditioning... modern cars are diagnosed electronically and parts that have reached their design failure age are swapped out quickly and profitably.
A local independent MB repair and restoration facility had the car for 2 months but refused to give me a firm price for anything. I got a bad feeling about them, paid them for a valve adjustment and service and took the car to a friend's shop where they do "preservation" work on a variety of sports cars including several Pagodas.
The car is rust and collision free, every system needs attention, every rubber bushing or mount is worn out, the engine is full of sludge but still runs with OK compression (110 to 140), the suspension needs everything, the gas tank needs relining... etc.
If you are interested here is what I expect most people would have to spend to recondition a complete, running but un-restored original car that has been out of service for many years (nice and original looking, but not reliable or safe to drive):
Mechanical & Undercarriage - $25,000
Engine - $15,000 (this may not be necessary)
Interior & Soft Top - $12,000
Paint & Body - $10,000 (this could wait)
Chrome & Rubber - $5,000 (needs to be water tight)
AC system - $5,000
Lenses & Lights - $2,000
Other parts and reconditioning - $4,000
That is $78,000
Plus the base Car valued at $20,000
That totals close to $100,000 plus 2 -years of your time to complete, trouble shoot, source parts and fuss over details. Plus a lot more if any parts are missing or not suitable for reconditioning.
This is why these cars are rising in price: All of the economy of scale and mass production that the factory was able to achieve during their manufacture is now converted to a hand-built 1-off manufacturing process. Who is profiting from this appreciation? Those that perform the reconditioning or manufacture the parts or resale cars without restoring them. Oh and those lucky few who have kept their cars in good condition or who have performed older restorations when the cars were less costly to repair.
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Hi Roy,
Welcome to the Group. There are quite a few here that either have had the car from new or their family has done so passing from one generation to the next. It always makes a great story.
One of our members, Tom Collit in LA (LA Restorations) does restorations on the Pagoda and maybe is worth your effort to get in touch with him. He did some excellent work on an XK E Type for me several years ago and was reasonable in costs.
Look forward to your participation on the forum in future.
Garry
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Mr. Royroberson
I may not have read between the lines but are you gonna tackle the car yourself or are you looking to sell it? What you described is par for the course and nothing new to this group. I think mine was in worse shape when I got it but the beauty of these cars is that they were meant to be tinkered with. Mostly everything is servicable. If you are looking to sell, throw up a couple pictures and a price and I'm sure it will be gone quickly.
If you are going to keep it, hang on, its a heck of a fun ride.
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If you want to keep the car, you would better do most of the work yourself. Labor cost is the main killer. These cars are not that complicated and you will find a lot of help and knowledge here. Rust free and collision free is an excellent starting point, though rust free is often a relative term.
If you want to sell it, as you already figured out, you may not recoup the expenses you will put in the car, apart from having it run and drive. So you'd better sell it as is.
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Hi Roy,
I am really thrilled to pick up this thread after a year and have you tell us how the story is going. It would be a shame to lose you, and who knows what would happen to your beautiful car. As the other fellows have said, your analysis of the situation is quite reasonable. But every contributor here has their own story and each of us probably has a slightly different reason for being involved. So if you feel that the car is worth hanging on to because of the family tradition, or because you think it's fun to drive, or whatever else you might feel, that's good enough.
Maybe we put so much effort into the technical side of things, that we forget to apply ourselves to the human side. Maybe the Technical Manual should have a section called "Reasons to keep the car." I have at least 4 reasons myself:
- I was born in Germany so I want to help protect Germany's heritage of fine engineering and design
- the car is soooo much fun to drive
- although I'm all thumbs in the workshop and hardly do anything on the car myself, I enjoy reading and learning about it
- it's a diversified investment :D
Please keep us in the loop. The guys here are super helpful, and there are always options.
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Hi Roy
The cost of restoration in the United States are very high unless you have the knowledge and do it yourself. I purchased my 1969 280 sl in Dubai for about $22000. It had minimal rust and the fuel pump was not working and had a few minor issues. Over the past ten years I have spent about $10000 on it including changing the mounts, new fuel pump, stainless steel exhaust, new radiator, bushes and other rubber parts. I recently had the hardtop restored (it was rusted as it had been left behind and the seller had earlier been unable to find it) and got the fuel injection pump calibrated. The car is now in great condition
I understand that good restoration work is done in Poland where the cost is more reasonable. Maybe cheaper to ship the car by container to Poland and get the job done there. On the net I found this site http://car-restoration-art.com. Check it out.
Nirmal
1969 280 sl
1953 MG TD
2012 Jaguar 2012
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Roy,
Having just gone through a Psuedo-Restoration project myself, I would doubt that you would have to pay as much as you restore the car to it's former glory. The restoration that the Classic Center does is totally Frame-off, and restores the car to what it would have been rolling off the line, to the freshly painted bolt. You can google these projects at the classic center and motoring investments. I chose a different path, and I am thrilled.
I would look through the "vendors" on this site and contact them about the project. These Gentlemen are extremely knowledgeable, and in most cases extremely altruistic in helping bring these cars back to life. Someone who works on many of these cars exclusively will know where the landmines are in the project. The most important considerations for me, was that the car needed a straight and uncompromised frame, manageable pan rust, and decent chrome and trim (including headlight doors). These engines are incredibly robust and can be refurbished for, in most cases, about five thousand dollars in the right hands (make sure you replace all the seals and seall all the bolts into the block, to prevent leaks). The largest expense may be re-doing and milling the heads and valves. Fuel pump, and injection system may be another couple of thousand to get working right. As for the mounts, (subframe, engine, and tranny) those are easy and will greatly improve the driveability of the car. New soft top and seat covers may cost you another $4,000 or so, Getting the dash in shape with new heater controls is time consuming (another couple of grand). The transmissions are built like tanks, so I doubt money needs to be spent there, except for bushings. So, barring any frame issues, you're looking at about $20k to have a reliable road car.
I'm not sure how you came up with $25k for the Mechanical and undercarraige, but I don't know the car. The only pic I see is a rotted lower tail panel, which can be bought for under $300 from K&K, and welded in. The body work is tricky. Alot of unseen rot can drive your costs way up. With welding repairs in a few spots (behind wheel wells, tail panel) a good paint job is going to be $10-12k, assuming you remove and replace much of the trim yourself. One of the costliest parts of the project is getting all the chrome and trim right. The Chromed-brass side moldings, and lower aluminum trim is very expensive to replace, as are bumpers. The other big nut are the headlight doors and tail lights. If yours are shot, you are looking at $4k to replace both. New Coker tires: $1500.
I'm sorry for rambling, but I don't believe that the W113 would cost anyone $75k to put back on the road, unless it was truly rotted to the ground. (I'd guess $20-30k) If you love the car, and want to restore a moment in time in your childhood, or parent's life, you should go for it. If you have $40-50k into it, you'll still be in the black, given today's valuations. But you will have to dig into the folks in this group, and find the help you need. Stay away from the "restoration houses" that restore everything from Benzes to Porsches to Mustangs. The restorations you see done on Cable TV are entertainment, but a total waste of time and money. If you want a museum piece, I'd start with a better car, and spend the money with the classic center or motoring investments or Buds Benz.
I hope you do it.
Mike Mizesko
Columbus, OH