Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Drive train, fuel, suspension, steering & brakes => Topic started by: Mike K on October 20, 2013, 21:29:28
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I've just joined the Group, having frequently visited the site for technical information. In August I purchased a 1971 280SL Pagoda, (originally a California car), which my wife and I finally collected last week from Holland and drove back to France.
Having left the mad traffic of Holland & Belgium behind, once we entered France we ducked off the motorway and drove on back roads through Champagne, the Rohne Valley and the Luberon back home in the South. We agreed that this was one of the most wonderful road trips we’ve ever done. Scenery, accommodation, food and wine were all outstanding!
In the first 2 days we covered over 1, 000 kilometres and the car behaved impeccably. On the 3rd day I pulled into a service station off the beaten track and filled up with 98 octane.
I remember thinking at the time that maybe I should wait and find a busier station, however not knowing how far to the next station, I took on about 40 litres of fuel.
About 1/2 an hour later and while cruising at about 50MPH and as I tried to accelerate the car started losing RPM. It was as if it was running out of fuel. I pulled off the road and as I slowed down the engine died. I restarted the car and it kicked in straight away, I revved the engine waited about 2 minutes and pulled off again. This story repeated itself for most of that day, and we kept having to pull off the road about 5 or 6 times as the car lost power at times, and then restarting after a few minutes and carrying on.
I ran a variety of possibilities though my head ranging from: contaminated fuel to faulty fuel pump, air lock in the tank, dirty injectors, faulty spark plugs......the car was fully serviced
before I collected it. I also can’t understand why we had covered 1, 000kms with no issues and then suddenly there was a problem.
Eventually I noticed that this problem occurred once the fuel got close to 1/2 a tank, so I kept filling the car up every 200 kilometres and had no further issues for the remaining 1, 000kms of our trip.
Once I arrived home, about 1, 900kms since Holland, I ran the fuel down to about 1/2 a tank and the problem started again. It went away once I filled it up. As soon as the tank’s full the car purrs along and is an absolute pleasure to drive, fully responsive and smooth!
Additionally, while inspecting under the hood I noticed that the ground wire from the coil was half snipped. I think this must have accidentally happened when they fitted a battery disconnect switch. I replaced the ground wire and thought that this may have been the problem.
However as mentioned above, as the car got to 1/2 tank of fuel the problem repeated itself again. Again as it starts losing RPM -it's as if it's running out of fuel-, I pull off the road and restart and all is fine again, until the next time....
The car is booked in to a local mechanic who works on older cars next week. I guess we’ll start by checking the fuel pump operation and then move onto the fuel tank filter...
I’ve ordered and received a replacement filter in case it’s clogged up.
I’ve spent hours searching through the forums on this website trying to track the problem down.
I would really appreciate any feedback or thoughts from those of you with more experience than I have on this issue.
To make things even more interesting, I’m also about to undertake the daunting task of registering the car on French plates. The amount of red tape and paperwork required are absolutely mind numbing!
Thanks in advance.
Mike
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Some images-
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Hello Mike and welcome to the forum,
Beautiful car and what a beautiful place to drive it. We were in the Luberon a few weeks ago and there are certainly lots of nice twisty roads to enjoy driving your Pagoda. I am afraid I do not have an answer as to what your problem might be but there are some really talented folks on this forum who I am sure will come up with a solution.
John
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Welcome Mike. Congrtulations for your Pagoda. I think your fuel pick up hole at the base of the flower pot (just under the return line) is clogged. If this is what happened your fuel pump will get fuel only when the tank is almost full and fuel fills the flower pot from above. Take a look at the fuel tank tour in the thecnical manual.
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Thank you Johan & Dante for your replies.
Dante- Thank you, I'll re-read the Fuel Tank Tour and take it from there.
Best,
Mike
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Welcome to the group.
I can only add to what Dante said that we had a 250SL in the area that had a similar problem, and it took a new fuel tank to fix it.
Whatever the solution, it is important that you test it as follows: drive up along the Gorge to Moustiiers Ste Marie, and eat lunch at La Treille Muscat.
We have done two home exchanges in Provence, Greoux le Bains, and Draguignan. What a great place for a Pagoda.
Cheers,
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Thanks Chuck great advice!
Dante thanks again for your advice.
Took the car to a mechanic this morning who told me he didn't have the time to spend messing around with an old fuel tank. He said the best I could do was order a new tank and come back and he would fit it for me. Ultimately he's right the tank is 42 years old after all! However this doesn't sort out my current problem until such time as I can get a new fuel tank.
I took the car home and decided to tackle this myself. I followed the instructions on the "fuel tank tour" on this website and spent the best part of the day cleaning out the fuel tank. All with great success at the end of the day!
I followed the instructions on the fuel tank tour:
1. Siphoned about 50 litres of fuel out the tank.
2.Removed the sender unit from inside the trunk by loosening the bolts and lifting this out.
3.Inserted a wire coat hanger & by feeling my way around with a flashlight and the coat hanger, found and unblocked the fuel entry passage to the "flower pot", which is located below the fuel return line.
4.Undid the hexagonal bolt at the bottom of the tank. To my surprise there was no in-tank filter attached. A pile of sludge came pouring out of the bottom of the tank.
5.I spent about an hour removing all this debris from the tank, flushing with petrol, and then letting it air dry.
6.Unscrewed the fuel line from the pump at the fuel tank-end, did the same on the engine bay side and then blew compressed air through this. Also did the same through the fuel return line.
7.Once the tank was dry I inserted a vacuum cleaner hose from the top of the tank through the sender unit cavity and vacuumed even more crud out.
8.I then tackled the fuel filter in the engine bay and found even more crud and crap in the cylinder which houses the filter. Cleaned it all out and replaced that filter with a new one.
9.Inserted a new in-tank filter and rubber seal from underneath the tank.
10.Poured fuel into the "flower pot" through a funnel from the sender unit cavity in the trunk, and was extremely pleased to see the fuel flowing from the" flower pot" into the tank through the unblocked entry passage at the bottom. Was even more pleased when I turned the ignition and the watched the fuel swirling around in the 'flower pot". All exactly as described in the fuel tank tour instructions here!
11.Re filled the fuel tank to below the "flower pot" level, (approx. 1/4 tank,) the car started first time. With fuel level indicating 1/4 I took it for a drive and it performed flawlessly, whereas up until this morning she would cut out and die at about 1/2 tank.
I couldn't have done this without the great and accurate info and instructions on this website.
Thanks,
Mike
Some images to follow.
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Good result.
You might still end up having the tank refurbished though. If there's rust inside the tank it won't go away.
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Fully agree. the only long term solution is a new tank, especially when you see what I flushed out.
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"The car was fully serviced when I collected it". Famous last words. Congratulations on having brought it back so far. You may have to repeat once or twice but if that cures it it's definitely cheaper than a new tank. Happy motoring, and let us know if new gremlins surface!
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Nice work.
I am quite shocked at the amount of gunk you found. I recently "thought" I had gunk in my tank but after doing the same as you did found less than 1/2 teaspoon of grit on the bottom of the tank and just enough of a trace in the filter canister to wipe it up with a finger. I think this proves that it takes a tremendous amount of sludge in the system to stop these cars.
welcome to this forum ... glad to see you're making use of it.
best,
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Mike, congratulations on your car and getting it sorted out through the use of this site. It has been a valuable resourse for myself as well. I also had the same problem you encountered but I was unable to clear the feed into the flowerpot as I had a good 2-3cm of sludge on the bottom of my tank. Replaced the tank and have never had a problem since. On that note I would mention that all that rust did come from the inside of your tank so the actual steel thickness has been compromised. How much who knows. While new tanks are not cheap I think they are a worthwhile investment. Just my 2c. Happy motoring.
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Nice job getting to the "bottom" of this. Now for some unsolicited advice: I would suggest some protection for your hands when contacting gasoline or any other such substance. Nitrile gloves work well, except with ketones and benzene. Just saying'
g
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Yes, I see the red color of the rust. I'm currious though. Is the rust from the fill up or is you tank really rusty. mune was so bad that the rust would completely block the filter, then fall off after a minute at a stop, then plug it again. I found a good used tank. I've read you can get them cleaned and coated.
Next time be sure to take the Dordonia river: Sarlat, Beynac, Rocamadour, Lascaux, Grotte de Font-de-Gaume. A friend from Cool California lives near Beynac and rents out rooms or suites.
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Nice work. Don't forget the little filter behind the inlet to the fuel pump.
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Yes, good work Mike. I second Chuck's advice. If you did not clear the small filter screen built into the intake fitting of the electric fuel pump,you will need to do this at some point. It is small and gets clogged easily, especially if the filter screen was missing of your drain plug.
Also, welcome to the best Pagoda site on the web!
Joe Alexander (ja17)
Blacklick, Ohio
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Hi Mike! You really did a great job. Chuck and Joe are absolutely right. The filter in the fuel pump inlet is the one that clogs first. I don't have gunk in my tank (maybe was previously cleaned) but I do have a lot of rust. This is worst because no matter how many times and how accurately you clean the tank, rust will soon reappear and clog the fuel pump filter. So, I'm seriously thinking on buying a new tank. I could have mine coated for much less but I do not trust too much this procedure.
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Thanks everyone for comment and feedback! I have already placed an order for a new tank, it's seems the only solution.
Re the fuel pump inlet filter, is there a diagram or picture of it and its location, I can't seem to find anything on the search function.
Many thanks,
Mike
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Mike, you should find the filter in the inlet side of the fuel pump. Just loosen the nut where the hose coming from the tank connects to the pump. If you don't find it maybe it's missing as the tank filter was.
Here is the picture from the technical manual:
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Mike,
Here is a picture. Be careful with any electric tools or lights around gasoline. Even static electric can be dangerous. The filter is difficult to remove while the pump is in the car. The rubber pump mounts can be damaged from stressing during the removal of the filter. I use an air impact gun to spin it off, then re-install it by hand after cleaning.
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Thank you both Dante and Joe, much appreciated. I'll try and do this tomorrow and feedback on what I find.
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I have a suspicion that you will find that the filter in the pump has been removed as well.
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is there a place I can buy this fuel filter at fuel pump inlet line? what is the part number?
Thanks!
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I've been looking around for them and can't seem to find them. I'll keep looking and will update.
BYTW I opened my fuel pump and as suspected there was no filter installed there either.
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What about taking the tank out of the car and paying to have the tank acid stripped. I have done about 4 tanks now with fantastic success. It sorts out 100% all blockages and at the same time pickles out all rust back to bare metal.
Takes less than an hour to get the tank out and about the same to fit it back.
I pay roughly 150USD for this service which takes one or two days. After the tank come back I coat it using POR15 tank sealer which will provide much better protection against future rust than was provided at the factory. This costs around 40USD and is an easy one hour Saturday morning job.
Externally I paint the tanks with an epoxy 2k primer and then a 2k top coat. Total cost another 30US.
Total cost 270USD.
I have yet to see a tank which was not workable. I have an inspection camera and check the inside of the tanks prior to the acid stripping. The worst tank I have encountered was one that sat for 15 years with half a tank of fuel. Above the 'water line' the tank had quite a bit of scale rust with the worst effected area the very top of the tank. Solution they left it in the acid tank for an extra 12 hours.
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is there a place I can buy this fuel filter at fuel pump inlet line? what is the part number?
Thanks!
I got hold of Niemoller in Germany this morning who advised me the the filter for the Bosch Fuel Pump is no longer available. Thinking about it, if you have the in-tank filter which is a very fine particle filter, is the fuel pump filter really that critical? There's also the fuel filter on the engine side as well.
I've also ordered a new fuel tank from Niemoller, which the guy I bought my car from has willingly agreed to pay for.
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I had my tank removed, acid bathed and internally coated to get rid of rust problems (lots of it). The job was done by a well known italian w113 specialist that granted that no internal tubing or fuel passages would clog during coating process. Next week the tank will be reinstalled. I'll keep you informed.
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1. Opinion - the pump filter is there for a reason.
2. Anecdote - I had a 280SEL for a time with a tank in poor condition. I had it cleaned and coated and continued to have problems with fuel starvation. What I found was that the tank strainer was OK, but the pump filter was clogged.
If you have a new tank, you will probably be OK for a while. But I suggest that you look for a used pump, condition unimportant, and use the inlet filter and fitting out of that. You could also install an inline filter between the tank and the pump.
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Mike, I think that you can find the pump filter at www.tecning.com.
They are the ones that stripped and coated my tank.
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Chuck's inline solution sounds eminently sensible if the part is NLA, and very easy to accomplish. There are filters in clear (ie almost transparent) housings that would enable you to see if there was crud coming from the tank, and that way know if there is a problem with the filter or whether you need to look elsewhere.
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This might be a long shot, but the Triumph TR6 that I once owned, had a similar issue when tank levels reached 1/2 full - it was the fuel pump (Lucas crap) running hot…
Ulf
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That's why British beer is served warm: Lucus refridgerators.
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That's why British beer is served warm: Lucus refridgerators.
Holy Cow, Gary, you can have a dig at Lucas, but for a North American have a dig at British beer is several steps too far!!! Please don't even go there. :o
But back to Lucas, (where you're safe), I learned that Lucas thought they'd managed to invent the first computer, but they couldn't figure out how to make it leak oil.
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Ah, the wonderful world of Triumphs. You have to have a sense of humor. I tried to autocross a Spitfire and broke just about everything but the lucus stuff. That is what led me to my SL. It had everything I wished the Spitfire had. No regrets, the spitfire was fun to drive, it was the way I tried to drive it. I have a friend with his original (kinda) GT-6. He has a spare or 2 of everything. but we digress....