Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Drive train, fuel, suspension, steering & brakes => Topic started by: thelews on August 09, 2013, 16:50:48
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http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?e=001sIj1NbfYHXt-EPF56LS6g_RN_RVZ0IbJ81mZ9LGm3V7w2fthaJ4TRVbRTAR_lL_w3X-AERnBeMVyf161A2p20ptsNbyLO5IARa8smpKQG-XLYi2wfdUFbVdgXvFDVXY7kSg0zz0Ox687H2WXasVa9A==
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The video itself was boring so I did not watch it to the end. Was price mentioned?
Gus
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Looks like an iPhone Application .... ---> https://itunes.apple.com/ca/app/speedometer-free-speed-box/id307529605?mt=8
I do the same with my TomTom it gives me a digital number readout in KMPH since my car odometer is in MPH and my odometer is out by about 8 KMPH ... that does the trick for me :)
Bet that 5 speed overdrive conversion costs a pretty dollar like an engine & transmission rebuild in the neighbourhood of $16K ... don't shoot me I'm guessing only :)
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He sent out an email announcing it.
Price is $4500.
Uses existing bell housing and shifter.
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That is great news $4.5K I like my automatic just the way it is :)
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I have a ZF 5 speed and it drops the RPM's by about 500 in fith gear. The ZF is .85 over drive and I'm now running 3.92 gearing. Can someone explain how you get a 1000 RPM drop with a .86 over drive? The box shown has to be more than that.
Odd how the shifter moves really far to the right. The ZF sits ( in 5th gear ) right about where 3rd would be with a regular 4 speed box.
The math doesn't add up for me. PJ? Help me out on this one will ya. ???
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It's not about addition, Dan, it's about multiplication ;D
But before I go all math-teacher on y'all, I gotta ask: it's supposed to depend on the tire size, isn't it? I mean, if it goes in the formula, then you need to know that.
I didn't find the video boring at all. I guess I can spare 5 minutes to watch (and to listen to!) a Pagoda driving just about anywhere. It made me laugh to think of this guy driving along with a camera mount over his head. So is Bud's Benz now offering a 5-speed conversion that is different from a ZF? Then I went and downloaded the Hans Schneider app for my Android. Hope I get time to check this out in the next couple days. There's probably also an app for the rpm and gear ratio calculation too.
p.s. how did the guy stick his iPhone to the front of his speedometer? And why bother covering up the speedo in the first place? You think he doesn't trust his speedo? I had no problem reading his tach, so why not just display the speedo needle?
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Using a GPS speed indicator removes doubt about true MPH, and eliminates discussion of rear axle ratio, tire size, etc. I would imagine he used some double stick foam tape for the video, to stick the iPhone into position.
Kudos to Bud's for kitting this together, the one thing it does not take into consideration is how many really want a 5-speed, versus a ZF? Also, with lots of talk about wants, about excessive RPM at speed, now theres a ready solution. Are all these people going to line up and buy it?
Curious as to whose transmission it is...
Great idea, but like Rolf, liking my automatic ;)
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Talking about math PJ, I wonder what this $4.5K will multiply or even triple to once Bud's get's a car into there shop :) ... Dan, Peter any guesses?
as I said before love my automatic just fine :)
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OK PJ, how much difference, percentage wise, is .85 from .86? I'm pretty sure it won't give you another 500 RPM less, right?
What I'm saying is my trans has a .85 over drive which lowers my engine RPM by about 500. They call theirs .86 but there's is 1000 RPM less? Somehow the math isn't working for me.
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Hey Dan - To explan why theirs drops 1,000 and your ZF 500, shouldn't we be comparing the ratios of 4th vs 5th gear in theirs vs yours, rather than the final, 5th gear ratios? Because that is what will be determining the drop if I am not mistaken.
A valid comparison on just the final (.86 vs .85) ratios would be the RPMs at a given speed on your car vs their test car, but that's where tire size, diff ratio and all that comes into play.
So if I am correct then their 4th gear ratio is likely higher than yours, by about twice the 'distance' to 5th.
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At one point in the video the driver says 4th gear is the same ratio as stock, that would be 1:1. So in order to drop from 4000 rpm to 3000 rpm when shifting from 4th into 5th, ratio for 5th should be 0.75:1. The T5 came with a choice of various ratios for 5th, .76 and .86 being two of them, on Jeeps notably. It may well be they installed a T5 (which would be a good choice) but assumed the 5th ratio was .86 while being .76 in reality. Does anybody know what trans they fitted?
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For me, there's lots to learn here. Dan's point is taken, that .85 and .86 are barely 1% apart. But if the comparison is between 4th and 5th in two different transmissions, then Cees is also correct that we need to know more than just the .85 and .86. So to help get me started, is it safe for me to presume that there is only one kind of ZF-5 transmission that was ever available for our Pagodas? If I look up the ratios for it, there will just be one set of numbers?
And we still haven't heard what Bud's is really offering here. Could it be that they just install some extra pieces on a "regular" 4-speed, and that's why their 4th gear is the same as ours?
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I understand that Bud's conversion kit is based on what Raymond (http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=643) developed for his car. Those who attended PUB will know. Look on the forum for Ray's posts on the topic. He used a Tremec T-5 five-speed transmission. Refer to Pagoda World, Issue 11.
Some relevant topics:
- http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=9201.0
- http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=11718.0
The 5 speed ZF gearboxes are all sold. I spoke with the guy who started the initiative during the 50th birthday celebration in Willingen.
Peter
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I understand that Bud's conversion kit is based on what Raymond (http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=643) developed for his car. Those who attended PUB will know.
Peter
Do you understand this from Bud's?
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I understand it from Ray. He was at the 50th Pagoda Celebration in Willingen.
Peter
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Raymond did a fine job, and put a lot of effort into his project. Wonder why Bud's insists on calling it their own; Tremec/Borg Warner has a pretty good name in the world of transmissions.
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Hi Guys, I'm sitting in a window in Bacharach, Germany today. The 50th Anniversary celebration was a FABULOUS event! I think the Germans now know that there are serious Pagoda lovers outside the Fatherland.
Re: The transmission. After PUB 2011, I took my car to Bud's where David and Brad put it on the lift. I showed them what I had done, and what I would do differently. I put a lot of effort into the project, but I knew that with a proper shop and manufacturing resources, a better kit could be built. I wanted to make a kit for all of those who wanted a reasonably priced conversion and couldn't access a ZF or the Getrag 265/5 which is pretty rare outside of Europe. The only thing I asked in return was to get the improved adapter and mounting plate for my car when they were ready.
Well, Brad and David went one better. Instead of using the T-5 with the aft shift position and Chevrolet shifter that I did, they spent a lot of development time figuring out how to make the transmission adapt to the Mercedes shifter. What they have done is clever and seems durable. They have already installed it in 3 customer cars and reports are that it works just fine. Bud's has built the transmission from two models to accomplish the task and warranties the transmission for a full year. After two years of trial and error, he'd like to recover his development costs. I can tell you that this price is pretty doggone close to what it would cost me to do it with his improvements. I made a steel adapter plate because it's what I and the shop I worked with could do. Bud's has made a precision cut aluminum plate. I had to cut the transmission mounting plate and invent an rubber mount. They have custom designed a plate and solved the shock mount issue. Their kit is a bolt in with no changes made to the car. If you want to reverse it to original, there is no harm and no foul. Unlike the Getrag conversion, you don't cut the Pagoda driveshaft and weld on the BMW flex disc, you get a new driveshaft.
The 5th gear is 0.76. At 3000 RPM through my original differential, I am doing 76 MPH. My Interstate highway fuel economy has improved nearly 25%. I confess that my city mpg has not improved because with the low differential and first gear I can not only leave a 25 foot stripe on the asphalt, I can chirp the tires in second gear. You can't do that with a 3.67 differential.
I believe I have accomplished my mission. I wanted to get the 5 gear driving experience without having to pay for a ZF. Reverse postion with the shifter is the same as the ZF, although I can't speak for the throw because I've never driven a ZF. With the Merc shifter and a 5-spd knob, no one would ever know the difference by looking. I also know that if anything ever goes wrong with my transmission, for decades to come, any competent shop in the world will be able to get parts and fix it.
This will never satisfy the purists. To me, this is no different than putting in progressive springs, or Pertronix ignition. It makes the car more useful and enjoyable in modern driving without adversely affecting the car itself.
I would like it if it was referred to as The Hays Conversion, but only because my Dad would be proud.
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The Hays Conversion it is, and it should now be known as such for evermore!
Great to see you on Friday, Ray - and to hear about the Hays Conversion!
(I wonder what the shipping would be...may need it if I can't get the damn rear axle sorted).
J
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Bud's should recognize that calling it the Hays Conversion will actually improve sales....
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Hi Guys, I'm sitting in a window in Bacharach, Germany today. The 50th Anniversary celebration was a FABULOUS event! I think the Germans now know that there are serious Pagoda lovers outside the Fatherland.
Many of us do agree with this :) (spoken like Arnold S ~grin~ My brother in Germany on the other hand thinks my Pagoda is "Eine Kleine Sardinen Dose" (Small Fish Container), what does he know :)
(http://31.media.tumblr.com/1578cbd97561145f39e014cc60fa452a/tumblr_mgkpjdOnpe1rkb0m7o1_500.gif)
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This will never satisfy the purists.
A well thought out, well engineered solution solving a given challenge, real or imagined is, for example, how AMG got started...emphasis on the well-engineered. You can always leave the stock 4 speed in a box for the next owner if there ever is one. Nice to see how Bud's has taken the core elements of Ray's determined conversion, and basically improved upon them.
Are they sourcing the transmission as new? I thought (did someone say this once?) that the Tremec of the proper size is out of production.