Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: jomalo on June 01, 2013, 16:39:10
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Hi, first off my name is Jørgen and I'm a brand new member of the forum. I currently live in New York, but I'm originally from Oslo, Norway.
I have been in love with the w113 since I first saw one driving through the streets of Oslo 15 years ago.. ever since I've been dreaming about owning one, and now I think I might have that chance.
I'm considering bidding on a 1967 250 SL 4speed auto. I'm concerned for many reasons, but mainly it's price point: 8-10K at no reserve. I've received a condition report (details below) and will inspect it tomorrow before considering my bid.
I have no prior experience with the Pagoda, and I'm looking for advice from experienced owners such as yourselves on what to look out for (ie. expensive restoration issues), or if you think it's even worth the buy. At this price I'm obviously expecting restoration work to be done (by professionals) and I 'd also really appreciate advice on what to expect on that end..
Without further ado, here are the details:
1967 Mercedes-Benz 250SL
Chassis no. 11304312003235
Mileage: 01883
Color: Code 268H Dark Green with Code 139 Bamboo interior
Includes both hard and soft tops
Air-conditioning and upgraded sound system, stock radio included.
All tools, original handbook and service schedule included.
Listing says it remains rust-free (see report for contradiction) and in good running condition, although it deserves to be serviced and cosmetically detailed.
Two prior owners (one of which was a car collection)
Paintwork: Looks like a light respray, but otherwise original paint in door jambs, under bonnet etc. Small dents and scratches throughout.
Body: Good panel fit. Has little notches by headlights. Rust in floors and rear fenders. Possibly other areas too.
Interior: Looks like entirely original interior. Moldy and smelly. Discolored in areas and aged.
Panels: Original
Dash: Original
Carpet: Original
Top: Hard top in place
Brightwork: Some pitting, otherwise original. Looks like aftermarket over riders.
Glass: Looks original.
Wheels & tires: old and work
Engine bay: original, engine sounds good at idle.
In advance, thank you - any and all input is highly valued.
Sincerely,
Jørgen L
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Welcome Jorgen, and good for you to take actIon on your long interest. Acquiring a Pagoda will raise your standard of life.
Tis one you need to be very careful with. 'Rust in floors and rear panel and possibly other areas' is a major red flag. Rust repairs can run you literally in the tens of thousands in repair work and major headaches if you end up entrusting the work to a not-100% restorer. The other red flag is the 'smelly and moldy' interior. This indicates to me that the car has not been used for a very long time. This could mean rust in the tank, dried out hoses and other rubber, need to replace the tires etc. if yo woud be doing ll this restoration work yourself I'd say go for it at the right price, but if as you say you're going to have to have the work done by professionals I'd probably look further, and buy the best car you can afford.
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Thank you for your quick response Cees.
They've amended the lot to include this also: "Upon closer inspection, Bonhams specialists have found evidence of light rust in the rear wheel wells and undercarriage. Please also note that the title for this lot is in transit."
That, along with your esteemed advice, it will take a lot for this car to redeem itself as a good purchase. I think I will heed your warnings and pass on this. If anyone else might be interested, it will be at the Greenwich Concours d ' Elegance this weekend and pass the gavel as lot #400 on Sunday afternoon. https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/21153/lot/400/
What, then, should I expect to pay for a nicely restored model? I'm looking for the later models in darker paint schemes (the car in question is one of my favorite color schemes, dark green and bamboo interior). What's the verdict between a manual and an automatic transmission?
Thanks again!
Regards,
Jørgen L
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Welcome Jorgen,
Good luck with your search for one of the finest cars ever made by MB :) I purchased one just over 2 weeks ago and made a careful check list. Perhaps you like to use it or add to it. See below ... Mind you some of the info may not be available, at least it gives you a start
Initial Check List for 1969 Mercedes 280 SL
WRITE DOWN FULL DETAILS SUCH AS;
VIN # _____________________________
ENGINE #__________________________
TRANSMISSION ____________________
OPTIONS _____________________________________________________
VERYFY NUMBERS WITH CURRENT REGISTRATION ____
CHECK AND NOTE LAST EMISSION INSP. __________________
COLOUR CODE _________________
KEY CHECK (ALL DOORS AND TRUNK SAME KEY) ________________ (not always the case)
CHECK HEATER IF IT WORKS ____ (Repair is costly).
CHECK ALL CROME PIECES ____ (Grill alone is $3K Bumpers are also very expensive).
CHECK HOOD, DOORS, TRUNK AND SOFT TOP COVER FOR DENTS, ALL THOSE COMPONENTS ARE ALUMINIUM AND DENT VERY EASEALY.
CHECK UNDER ALL CARPETS FOR RUST (front loors, rear floors, if possible lift up rear wood bench also check the trunk rubber mat).
CHECK REAR PANELS UNDER BUMPERS AND LICENCE PLATE FOR RUST (they are doubble skined and trap moisture).
CHECK WIPERS TO MAKE SURE THEY WORK (it is time consuming to repair also costly).
CHECK FOR ACCIDENT DAMAGE (lift hood and trunk the factory tack welds should be clearly visable also below the car - if not then the car was in an acident).
CHECK ENGINE OIL AND FOR EXCESSIVE GAS SMELL ___
CHECK TRANSMISSION FLUID (should be bright to dull red ~ black spells trouble).
CHECK COOLING SYSTEM RESERVOIR (colour should be fresh green or yellow)
CHECK GAS FILLER AREA FOR RUST ___
ONCE ENGINE IS UP TO OPERATING TEMP. LISTEN FOR NOISES FROM VALVES AND TIMING CHAIN (rattles or knocks).
CHECK FOR SMOKE FROM EXHAUST AT LOW AND IDLE SPEED (puff of blue smoke for a moment is acceptable, however continues blue is bad). White smoke means the head gasket is blown.
INSPECT THE UNDERSIDE OF THE CAR (look for oil leaks, road damage, rust and take pictures) ____
GET PERMISSION TO HAVE CAR INSPECTED (you pay for the inspection - it will provide insight as to what repairs if any are to be done in the near future)
DRIVE THE CAR (check items listed below during the test drive) ____
CHECK SUSPENSION (for clunks, rattles or odd noises) _____
CHECK TRANSMISSION (for noises, clunking, slippage or squeals) ____
CHECK FOR SMOOTH GEAR CHANGE (or jearcks bad) ____
STEERING WHEEL (easy to turn or clunking (clunk means the rubber isolator or linkage is bad)____
CHECK ALIGNMENT (stear true and straight) ____
BREAKES (do they pull evenly or to one side) ____
PARKING BRAKE (coast to stop and pull the brake)____
BRAKE PEDAL FEEL IS FIRM OR SPONNGY (not firm then problem with system) ___
REVIEW PAST INSPECTION REPORTS ___ IF THERE IS NO CARFAX REPORT (US and Canada) WHEN CAR WAS PURCHASED THE CAR THEN PULL A REPORT FROM THE INTERNET.
MAKE AN OFFER TO PURCHASE THE CAR.
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Thank you! This checklist will absolutely come in handy, I really appreciate the help. I'm excited to continue my search, and I'm comforted to see the responsiveness/eagerness to help from the community.
Cheers,
Jørgen
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You will get a lot of help here Jørgen, this is a great site! Go also to the Technical Manual (see link below) under the Subject: "Buying a car" Let us know what you eventually end up with.
Also Google Top Gear Season 3 Episode 8, the host Jeremy Clarkson talks about the 280 SL (great video clip to watch).
Or go to this link here ===> http://www.streetfire.net/video/top-gear-season-3-episode-8-all-rightsbbc-uk_part-1_2196804.htm
Good Hunting and Good Luck!
http://www.sl113.org/wiki/Buying/Start (http://www.sl113.org/wiki/Buying/Start)
The site below will help you as to price (or how many dollars you may have to spend to get to excellent condition).
check it out here ====> http://www.nadaguides.com/Classic-Cars/1971/Mercedes-Benz/280SL/2-Door-Roadster/Values
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The Bonhams auction estimate for this car was US$ 8,000 - 10,000 ... Probably correct based on the rust and other issues described. You could see the rust in the rear quarters even in those distant photos, and as you stated, they amended the description to include the rust comments as it must be significant rust as they normally do not comment on rust if it is slight .... and it still sold for 36,000 (including commissions). :o
The other 113 sold close to the Bonhams estimate at US$ 66,000.
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$36K....Choke , choke..... :o
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Jorgen....I saw this car in Greenwich today. There was a state inspection sticker on the windshield (I believe 2002) and IMHO the car had been sitting since leading to the odor. I am amazed that Bonhams initially listed this as a "no rust" car. (probably just printing what the seller told them). There was rust EVERYWHERE underneath...in fact so much that if you stood next to it too long, you'd have rust flakes on your shoes (not kidding). There was a ring of rust flakes around the perimeter of the car, most likely from prospects poking and prodding to see exactly how much was present. I looked at the undercarriage from the rear and the gas tank showed rust as did the metal fuel pump cover. What a mess. Hammer price was $33k with a $3k buyers premium.
The $60 280SL was nicely presented with paint seemingly flawless. Interior was nice (sunvisors were covered with the same material as the seats, though) and the engine compartment was clean but could have used some detailing for this amount. No headlight fender notches nor interior fender spot welds present. Color change from white (050) to light ivory.
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Jørgen,
Saw a decent 1970 280SL at a repair shop in Edison NJ. They had $29K on the window but think price was down to $25K. It is silver with black interior. Owner died and repair shop owner was selling it for the estate. It also had been sitting a while, but was pretty solid. Will need paint though....I looked it over and this repair shop had serviced it in the past and did engine work, so that should be fine. I was even thinking for $18K I would buy and hold it, but wife would kill me ::). Send me a personal message if you are interested and I can send a pic I took of it and where it is located.
Also - best advice always is buy the best one you can afford AND never buy sight unseen. Even when I buy on ebay I look within 100 miles.
Good luck
Chuck
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Hi all, yes I took a look at it on Sunday and I'm very glad I stayed away. Can anyone explain why it went for so much? I am as green as it comes in this field, and even I saw all the warning signs (using the checklist and information you all had provided).
I even think I saw Wayne Carini shaking his head at it.. (first time I've ever seen him!).
There was a restorer on the concours grounds who has a nice 280SL for the same price and it seemed in good condition. I'll post his information when I get back from work in case anyone's interested.
Chuck, I would love more info on that - I'll send a personal message to you shortly.
Thanks again for the response!
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ther was a couple of nice ones advertised on this forum a while back, worth a look in the items for sale perhaps?
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Jørgen,
This link will give you latest 2013 price ranges you can expect to pay for the car. If you need to translate the German to English we can help you with that or copy the text into Google Translator.
This link takes you to the 2013 price ranges based on car condition ----> http://www.pagode.info/4.htm
This of course is the main link to many other areas ----> http://www.pagode.info
Cheers,
Rolf-Dieter
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The market prices do vary considerably between US, Europe, UK, Switzerland, Asia and so on. The prices on the Pagode info site are likely for Europe/Germany.
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It should be noted that un-restored cars can often fetch way more than they would appear to be worth.
IMHO there are two reasons for this.
One is that ignorant (in the absolute sense) enthusiasts don't appreciate the time, effort, skill and money required to restore these cars and their enthusiasm runs away with them.
The second is that there are people who prefer to buy an un-restored car so that the restoration can be under their control and to their specification in order to achieve the desired result.
The wise will know that many, many cars that "look" nice are in fact polished turds.
I recently carried out a PPI on a car being sold by a "specialist" here in London the screen price of which was £39995.00. It was a basket case, probably one of the worst lash-ups I'd ever seen.
To the potential purchasers eye it looked perfect but I wouldn't have paid any more than £6000 for it.
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This little book was quite useful when I bought my 230 : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mercedes-Benz-Pagoda-Buyers-Guide-V4113-New-Book-/200929562403?pt=Non_Fiction&hash=item2ec855cf23
I too was a complete novice, having previously focused on British classics that are quite different beasts and less complex. It helped me decide and also in the price negotiations as I could point out things that weren't correct which the seller was unaware of (although they were all easily rectified)
Happy hunting
Ulf
PS: Spotted a brown 280 in Oslo last week :-)
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I second Ulf's recommendation. I used the same guide. Very helpful.
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There are 4 or 5 Pagodas on the Canadian website autotrader right now. This is the one I find most interesting, if the link is correct: http://m.autotrader.ca/a/19_6952619
Of course, Montreal may be a bit out of your way :-)
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Pj ... Nice looking car, I just wonder how much rust.it might have if ever driven in Montreal winters. :) If it passes most points on my check list then it be a nice catch. :)
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Also, there are a few yellow flags on the restoration. Wrong steering wheel, padding on soft top hatch cover, radio, piping on seats. But this does look like a nice car if the mechanicals are good and there is no rust.
Greg
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I was at that auction at Greenwich and all I can say is I hope you were not the winning bidder. Awful condition-- in fact I would bet my Pagoda that it had flood damage because the inside smelled awful and the undercarraige had the obvious signs of water damage. It had a huge quarter size hole on the hood and remember this was a 250 not a 280. Nonetheless, some ignoramous paid over $37,000 for the car. I would only assume he was a phone bidder because if he saw this car in person he would have not bid. This car would need a $100,000 restoration and would only be worth max $65,000 after the restoration. Good luck!