Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: Tom Colitt on July 16, 2004, 12:03:22
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Hi
I'm not sure what the policy on the board is about making people aware of bad business practices by vendors, but I felt it could only help Pagoda Sl Group members to share my concern.
I'm sure many of you have noticed that a user named "hubcap190" also known as BudsBenz is currently offering many used Mercedes parts on
Ebay. I was interested in one of the items and asked a simple and straight forward question about the part. David from BudsBenz did not bother to answer the question at all and simply answered "it's used" to my polite inquiry of whether the levers on his heater assembly were cracked. The answer may tell you something about the condition of the part and the type of person that you'd be doing business with....
I hope this helps someone else.
Regards, Tom :-)
Tom Colitt
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Tom, I also feel this is a touchy subject and here's my two cents worth. In some of hubcap190 auctions he claims "not sure if it works." How the hell can he say this. They run a fully staffed repair and restoration shop in Georgia with the means to test any and all equipment. It just doesn't make sense to tarnish the reputation of his place of business this way. He should use an alias.
1969 280sl 5 spd 1999 ML320 Gainesville,Fl.
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I have heard similar....apparantly "Bud" sold the business to current owners.....and have heard "not same since Bud sold".
I have no gripe but the friendly folksy chats I enjoyed in early 90s about parts/prices & helping you save is clearly gone. Today pricing is anything but competitive; its fine as there is a choise of 3-5 113 specialists in USA and you can easily shop elsewhere....esp when prices is same at all and you must pick!
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When you deal with people who sell parts, you must only ask simple questions: "How much does it cost" does confuse them. You must have the model of your car, the middle initial of your firstborn and your great grandmothers bank account number. The person who handles your part inquiry may not be literate, please be considerate. They don't kow what the part looks like or what it does. That's what computers are for. Very soon the system which allows you to place an order for parts directly shipped fron China to your doorstep will be ready. No people involved. Any required translation from English to Chinese will be done by the computer and you can view the part installed in your virtual car and drive it.
1969 280SL,Signal Red, A/T, P/S, A/C, Both tops. Ret. engr.
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My Opinion....
I recently purchased a '71 280SL and have called Buds B directly (vs ebay) for parts and questions. So far thay have been very helpful. David has been very professional. Not sure what the deal is with the ebay situation? Maybe he just had a bad day...
bpossel
1971 280SL
Automatic, Light Beige, Cognac
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bpossel you're exactly right. If you call these guys they're friendly and helpfull. I just think David may be creating negative thoughts and feelings thus reflecting it on the business end. On ebay he's selling "used" parts and in the description he adds "don't know if it works" At the same time he is advertising Buds Benz which he probably shouldn't have.
1969 280sl 5 spd 1999 ML320 Gainesville,Fl.
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You guys sure don't understand the parts bussiness.
There's little or no price competion for older cars because you have the clasic centre.
In Canada, we don't have the useless clasic centre and don't have to follow that pricing. This place has done amost NOTHING for you. WAKE UP!
Daniel G Caron
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Hey Doc we're talking about used parts not new. If I want new I shop around for a good deal. What's your gripe about the Classic Center?
1969 280sl 5 spd 1999 ML320 Gainesville,Fl.
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I'm tired of trying to explain it.
Used parts don't have a real price on them - it's market driven by who wants what and what they want to pay or ask for a part.
If you people can't figure out what's going on with the classic centre then I'm not going to say any more. Just don't complain because there's no price competion, no discounts and the prices keep going up and up.
Daniel G Caron
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Hello all,
If the supplier does not answer your question then forget it and move on to a different one. I believe if they are honest and care to do business they would answer all of your inquiries no matter what. There are all sorts fo people on the NET, but the choie is yours. If you're not happy then the hell with them. Move on my friend...We shouldn't let crooks dictate our choices.
MO
No Pagoda Yet
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Ebay has pretty much ruined it for a lot of people. I won't buy or sell anything there. Maybe I'm stupid or smart - your call.......
Daniel G Caron
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Caveat emptor. There are good sellers and not so good ones. You have to consider the part, what you're willing to pay and the risk you're willing to take. I certainly wouldn't buy a car off eBay without laying my eyes and hands on it, but it is a source for parts. One thing I love eBay for is a price checking mechanism.
Back in the day I sold professional audio gear and a buddy was into vintage guitars. Everyone talks about the mythical Les Paul worth tens of thousands of dollars. My buddy reminded me, something is only worth as much as someone is willing to pay for.
I value this community for its collection of real experts. I'd love to more parts swapping/selling activity from trusted members of our community. Then again, people with old cars tend to hoard. You never know when you'll need that...
Shawn Rock
Philly, PA USA
1968 280 SL 4 speed
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I just have one thing to say concerning the Classic Center. Perhaps the "Benz Dr." did not know. The relationship between the Germann Pagoda Club and the Classic Center has helped Pagoda owners all over the world including Canada. Mercedes Benz is now producing numerous parts for our cars that weren't available before, this is due to the efforts and influence of the German Pagoda Club and people like Gernold. They keep a close relationship with the center and express our needs and the needs of our cars. The Classic Center is and will always be a crucial part of restoration and preservation.
1969 280sl 5 spd 1999 ML320 Gainesville,Fl.
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Actually, I'm fully aware of these things. I'm also aware of things that most people don't have a clue about.
Let me put it another way - those who are in the parts business either as wholesalers or resellers are even more aware of how things work. This is something far more complex than a simple statement about how great something is or isn't. Let's not forget that people like Tim Kidder ( a long time friend and supplier of parts to me and many people ) ALSO makes parts and has a huge personal investment without the deep pockets that MB has. I'm tired of hearing clssic centre this and classic centre that.
I've made some sizeable investments myself and believe me, it's more than just a little clear to me that MB has only passing interest in old cars. The dealers are even less interested unless of course the owner of a new car happens to have one of those '' old cars '' that needs a few things. And it better be a nice old car too - no POS stuff.
Like I said before '' I'm tired of trying to explain it to people who don't care and don't understand ''
( Oh , well................ )
Daniel G Caron
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when I first started with eBay 6 years ago and the description was not complete, one then emailed and usually got a friendly complete description sometimes in just hours...NOW...you either DO NOT get a reply at all or get a snappy remark like "its driver quality" and you still do not get the description as the above means different things to different people...the problem is that sometimes they are selling something you need to finish a project and will not quote you on freight, even if you ask...you can be in for a big shock after winning something only to find now that the seller wants undisclosed handling chgs, new boxes, and they will even let you pay for special packing by a third party.....buyer beware
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''Bud '' died several years ago in a motorcycle accident. His wife was badly injured but survived.
David Latham has beed running the place for a long time and I think he worked for Bud before he died. At any rate, this is probably his own personal collection of stuff, but since he and just about every other operation around never posts on ANY of the available sites, we'll never really know.
Besides, who cares? Don't buy his junk if you know better.
Daniel G Caron
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Gents,
My two cents...
It's like anything else. There are good suppliers and bad suppliers and most are somewhere in between. The bad ones will have good days, the good ones will have bad days. If you end up buying enough parts you'll find out who is who, and one of the purposes of this group is to "ask". There is no substitute for experience, and in the parts business experience translates to how many parts you've bought and how much you've spent.
As for eBay, I've had only good experiences in buying and selling, but I've done a bit more selling then buying of 113 parts. I did go through a trying experience with grill surrounds, but the seller eventually came up with the right part--(one that fit)after several tries. I've sold a lot of "surplus" 113 parts on eBay, and I've done a good job of describing items accurately and as a result have had only happy customers. But, I'm not a professional seller and that is what has changed eBay. Too many people making a living selling stuff on eBay. What you want to find is someone selling surplus items, not someone parting out a car on eBay as his daily bread.
There probably isn't a better forum for the exchange of parts then what we have here, but I think very few parts change hands between us. I know in all my attempts to buy and sell parts between this site and the old Yahoo site, I've had no takers on parts for sale and few people even respond for parts wanted...go figure that one out! So that's why I've resorted to eBay. My old steering wheel, tail lamps, trim, seat covers, brake booster, relays, headlight doors and what have you have all sold well on eBay.
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
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I have taken a chance buying some of Buds Benz stuff on Ebay and have really made some great deals because of their short very bad descriptions, Sometimes these are the "good" deals. I can understand some of your hesitations and not liking Ebay. But for me I have really found some great rare items that I could never have found anywhere else. My advice is to check feedback, know the shipping cost and read the description very carefully.
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On the topic of eBay, off the topic of W113:
I recently bought a set of 5-hole 16" wheels for my 1994 E420 from an individual selling on eBay. In the auction description, he said they were OEM wheels and came off a 1997 E420. I asked in an e-mail if the wheels were genuine MB wheels or AMG (not knowing the styles AMG made). He said they were standard OE Mercedes wheels. (I know, OE and OEM are not the same and that should have tipped me off.) Sure enough, when they arrived they were not genuine MB wheels at all, but made by "Zuess". I took them to a MB Dealer and the parts guy brought out the real deal to compare. There were several differences in the hub area.
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) Knockoff hub.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/rwmastel/2004726222124_Knockoff%20hub.jpg)
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Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) OE hub.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/rwmastel/2004726222244_OE%20hub.jpg)
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The guy won't take them back now. What recourse do I have? What can I do?
Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420
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It seems there's all sorts of experiences out there when it come to ebay. Some good, some not so good.
The one problem I see ( aside from being cheated somehow) is the naturally corrosive effect ebay has on prices. This may seem good at first but if someone has a few parts left over after a big restoration and sells them on ebay just to get rid of them, they may sell at half the price of retail. While this may look good to the buyer, and it does, what happens is your regular parts resellers ( Ray,K&K,Millers,Gernold,SLS,Will,myself and many others ) just lost that sale.
You say,'' So what? They should lower their prices then. ''
Well, if life were that easy.
Most of us ( parts guys ) work on very small discounts due to the control of the classic centres and CAN'T lower prices. The only real savings to be had is in laybor rates and competent places to get your work done.
It's that old saying '' If it's too good to be true.... it probably isn't.''
You can get a waranty, a description, price,availability, real or fake, new or used and all the other information you need from your regular suppliers. This is not to say that you can't get that from guys on ebay, but as we've already seen, there are risks.
Remember, ebay tends to side in favour of the seller - something you should consider if it's a large purchase.
Daniel G Caron
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Hey Benz Doctor don't you ever give up? It's obvious you hate ebay and the Classic Center. You've made your point several times. You're starting to sound like a broken record. There are quite a few of us that BUY & SELL on ebay. So I say, to each his own.
This thread started because one guy felt we should be warned. I then added that his auctions state, "don't know if it works." This was my only negative thing I had to say about David and his Buds Benz auction. (I have purchased many things from David throughout the years.) Then you start up with some crazy conspiracy theory that ebay and the classic center are out to ruin you and your buddy.
I am not aware of the parts you sell or manufacture or what prices you may have for Pagoda owners. Let us know, hell I may even buy a few items. I don't mind helping fellow businessmen and members if I can.
Doc you seem like a nice guy who likes to share his knowledge with those in need. Don't lower youself or talk down to others because you don't agree with them. Stop the crusade and direct your energy to the betterment of this great group of people and the W113 Pagoda that we all know and love.
Peace :)
1969 280sl 5 spd 1999 ML320 Gainesville,Fl.
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I personally welcome all opinions as most are the result of more experience then my own. It would be a shame if anyone stopped offering me their experience because they thought others would disagree. I thank you all for your opinions and if I ever get tired of any of them I will just quietly skip over them.
Chuck Bartlett
1969 Signal Red 4 Speed
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Gents,
Clearly this is a topic of worthy discussion, but I think some recent posts are getting a bit personal, and I for one am beginning to get a certain level of discomfort when this happens. It's OK to have a beef as it were with a legitimate company or firm, and to share those experiences here. It is less so to have one about a fellow member here.
As a labor of love to salvage what I thought was a family treasure, from 1999 to 2001, I paid for over 1,000 hours of restoration labor alone; then there was oodles of invoices for sublet work such as chrome plating all the trim (every last piece); a long-block engine rebuild, full leather interior, etc. I called every single vendor out there that I could find and a number of them I chose to do business with. The good doctor--Dan Caron--is as good as it gets my friends. If he espouses opinions you don't agree with, check to make sure you are sharing the same experiences before forming your own opinion. And it is OK to agree to disagree! Some of the notable vendors that many of you have done and continue to do business with were ones that, probably to their detriment, wouldn't give me the time of day on my inquiries.
We all have collective opinions that don't always mesh with everyone else here, and that is a good thing not bad. Listen to what everyone is saying, form your own opinions and make your decisions based on your feelings. If you make some mistakes along the way, chalk it up to experience and move on. After talking with many people recently who have restored very rare and expensive automobiles I can assure you we all make mistakes along the way.
All of our opinions are worth something to one another, even if they are often repeated. We regularly have new members, and not every one reads every post. So what may sound like repetition to one might not be repetitive for everyone else.
As a suggestion, lets all move on--as friends.
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
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quote:
Originally posted by rwmastel
The guy won't take them back now. What recourse do I have? What can I do?
I need help, please. See below.
Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420
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OK, just to set the record straight. There's no vendetta, no hidden agenda, I don't hate the classic centre or ebay and I'm not out to get anyone. If you don't agree with me I can live with that. If you don't understand what I'm talking about you have to live with that, not me.
I've had over 25 years in the field but there are those who would easily know more than me. However, when major suppliers agree with me about how MB is jerking us around on pricing who am I to believe?
The internet has made everyone into an overnight expert I guess......
Fine. Let's drop this whole thing and move on - my tolerance is running low anyway ~)
Daniel G Caron
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Hey Rodd - I am definitely not an expert on options when wronged on Ebay, but my guess is that you will have to incur quite some time, aggravation and cash expense if you want to get your money back from this seller. It may not be worth your trouble and of course unscrupulous sellers KNOW this. The cost may just be prohibitive, factoring in also the chance that you may not actually win the argument in (small claims?) court.
That said, do the wheels themselves fit? Are they a very close match to the real thing? If so, you may want to accept that you have bought good copies, and chalk this one up to experience.
Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
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Rodd I am sorry to hear about your misfortune with these wheels. Did you use paypal to pay for this item? Sometimes there is a feature you can use to gaurantee the satisfaction of the item for a fee through the paypal. Was there anything like this? If so you can contact paypal and let them know. I think I have the phone # to paypal, I'll have to look.
You also can contact ebay's customer support, it doesn't always work. If the guy won't take them back you can always put them back on ebay, maybe you can break even. How many bidders on this item? Contact the the second highest bidder, give him a break on the price.
Rodd you're not the first guy to have this happen to him and you won't be the last. Know what you're bidding on. Look for similar items that others are selling. Compare prices. If it looks too good to be true? Most of thses sellers it's all about the money.Check the sellers feedback rating.
1969 280sl 5 spd 1999 ML320 Gainesville,Fl.
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Everyone,
Thanks for the feedback, both here and to my personal e-mail account. It's all helpfull. I'll let everyone know how it works out in the end.
Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420
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Hi Guys, (yes, there is a girl out there; it's not just gentlemen)
Not to drive this into the ground, but there is another point to Dr. Benz's argument. It's a balancing act: If we become dependent on just a few sources for parts, prices will surge. If we can distribute our trade over many smaller businesses, they will have the incentive to continue to carry parts to supply us. Simple economic fact that supports many of the different opinions below. If you don't like someone's practices, go elsewhere.
Having said that, I love eBay, and I did the ultimate lunacy, as you may see in the next edition of Pagoda World: I bought a whole car, sight unseen. Call me crazy. In the interests of honesty, I'll tell you I paid $15,900 for her. She is in beautiful shape, and in over a year of driving has cost me a whole $0 in repairs. She got stuck in reverse once, and my Sarasota master racing mechanic came out and repaired the linkage quickly for free.
She has no rust, dings, or mechanical problems, and has new everything, including pesky and expensive chrome. I know I was very lucky, but I'm married to a crack amateur mechanic with the ultimate headache car (an e-type Jag), so I had a safety net! Plus my seller had over 3,000 positive ratings and no negatives. Plus I got him on the phone, so I could ask intelligent questions and judge his response. Clearly he is a professional seller with that many sales, and his description was absolutely on the money.
Rod, eBay prides itself on dispute resolution...someone recommended contacting the 2nd-highest bidder, but I think that falls outside eBay's rules because it deprives them of the sales fee. However,I'm sure people do it all the time.
And I agree we don't do enough trading amongst ourselves...
Trice
1968 280SL US, signal red/bl leather, auto, kinder
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The parts business has been easy for me. No real problems for 31 years, except I'm starting to forget stuff !! It's just that most dealer parts people aren't enthusiats and they're uneducated on older models. And most of them are too greedy when they do take the time to help you.
tom in CA
2003 C320 Coupe
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Yes, but are you a re seller or working at a dealership? There's a difference which I'm sure you would know about and understand.
Daniel G Caron
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I recently had a similar experience with this vendor-asked if they have pictures of the sunroof hard top that they are offering *during the restoration*. Their response was "no, why?" Frequently, email can be misinterpreted as to tone and maybe he was just trying to get through a lot of mail. But for $8,000?-Please, I need a little love to become separated from that much cash!!!!!
Spending $8,000 on anything is a lot of money-seemed like a fair question to see the work done for the price offered. If not done right, the top would leak or rust-there are drain holes that are in the headliner.
I have a lot of experience with our vendors and generally I am pleased with the vendors that serve the w113 community. They offer great products and a good attitude. This vendor is more of the exception than the rule-at least when it comes to fielding questions from interested buyers. I would not pester a vendor for a $10 purchase, but for $8,000, I would expect a little more TLC.
Best,
Tom
1971 280sl Tunis Beige Metallic (restored & enhanced)
1971 280sl Tobacco Brown (low mileage stock)
1970 280sl Deep Red (Project Car)
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My experience watching "new parts" on German Ebay is, that most of the new parts were sold at much higher prices than the same part costs in regular dealers price lists. It seemes to me that people on Ebay do not compare the prices on Ebay with regular prices
any more.
My experience watching "used parts" on German Ebay is, that people, who claim to be a private person, are taking the chance to sell hundreds of worn out items in an anonymous way and without "money back guarantee".
Buyers accept parts, that they never would accept from a dealer. I wonder why (?)It seemes to me, that on Ebay everything is "upside-down".
I don´t love it. I don`t hate it. I´m just wondering :-)
Tom
posting from Daniel G. Caron:
quote:
The one problem I see ( aside from being cheated somehow) is the naturally corrosive effect ebay has on prices. This may seem good at first but if someone has a few parts left over after a big restoration and sells them on ebay just to get rid of them, they may sell at half the price of retail. While this may look good to the buyer, and it does, what happens is your regular parts resellers ( Ray,K&K,Millers,Gernold,SLS,Will,myself and many others ) just lost that sale.
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