Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: 71Beige280SL on April 04, 2013, 13:41:42
-
Just out of curiosity, I went to the NADA website and looked up the value of our cars. See attached link to the page. The site states the average retail price for our cars is $51,700. I was pleased with that number. I expected it to be lower. High retail is $106,370. Thoughts?
http://www.nadaguides.com/Classic-Cars/1971/Mercedes-Benz/280SL/2-Door-Roadster/Values
-
Must have some variation based on zip... it's giving me slightly lower numbers for a NY zip code. $47K for avg retail and $96.7K for high retail.
-
Click the add 10% for hardtop button on the previous page.
-
It`s interesting that the 71 280SL high end is about $50,000 more than the equivalent 66 230SL high end price - almost double. I`m not sure I believe that.
Tom Kizer
-
I don't buy that either. 280s generally are priced higher, but not that much ... especially for excellent specimins.
-
And everyone who's anyone with these cars knows the 230s and early 250s are the better cars.
-
And everyone who's anyone with these cars knows the 230s and early 250s are the better cars.
John ... look out ... them fighting words ;D
-
Someone hold coat >:(
-
Classic Center sold a 100 point car for $183,000
-
I didn't mean to start a Forum rugby scrum! :D As I understand the data, this is based on actual sales by geography meaning zipcode. Having said that, others may know better. My intent was to start a discussion on the increasing values of our cars be they 230, 250 or 280! I believe they are all going up. Its all good!
-
2 different 280 SLs sold for $70,000 and $72,880 on ebay recently. That is if the cars don't get relisted due to a non paying bidder.
-
The value of 113's is going up slowly.
What we are seeing right now is the prices of perfectly restored cars being introduced into the market place. You are looking at anywhere from $110,000.00 to about $175.000.00 which is really an indication of MB and the high prices they ask for everything that's old.
You can get a very high end car from the guy in the DR for about 115K which is a pretty good deal because you could never restore a car in the USA for that price. Each car gets about 2200 hours spent on it so even at $50.00 an hour it couldn't be done here for that price once you dd in the cost of parts. I would rate his cars somewhere in the number 2 range.
So, in reallity, the cars you are seeing for 75K are nice number 3 cars. Number 3 cars have a fairly wide range and even a restoreable car with all new parts is still a number 3.
We do mid range muber 3 cars here which is what most people want. These cars look good, run well, and everyhing works. Any way you look at it, you won't be able to put a nice car together for much less than 50K.
-
Classic Center sold a 100 point car for $183,000
100 point? On whose scale?
Or should I ask out of how many: 125, 250, 500 points? ???
-
100 point? On whose scale?
Or should I ask out of how many: 125, 250, 500 points? ???
Come on Alfred! You are WAY smarter than that and you know exactly what Kayvan was talking about.
While there are many sources for the information, and some degrees of interpretation at the margins, when people talk of the condition of a vintage car they follow the "points" system or a category assessment. This is fairly common knowledge.
http://classiccars.about.com/od/buyingadvise/qt/ratingtip.htm?once=true&
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vintage_car
http://www.examiner.com/article/what-s-the-condition-of-your-classic-car-know-your-rating-number
I believe the AACA has a point system where the total points can get to 400; the MBCA had a similar profile, but went to a 100 point system.
Yes, there is a great correlation between Concours d'Elegance judging and a "point-rated" car.
In his price valuations, John Olson uses a category system, but does some correlation to points.
Your ersatz puzzlement does not fool me. You are too smart for this, he who is restoring a 280SL car to a 100 point standard!!! ;)
-
A 400 point system would be a much higher level than a 100 point system in terms of detail. Spot of dust? Spec of grass? You loose.........
-
A 400 point system would be a much higher level than a 100 point system in terms of detail. Spot of dust? Spec of grass? You loose.........
Not really. They generally use whole numbers in the larger point systems, whereas in the 100-point systems, you can deduct things like 1/4 point...
-
Benz Dr., do you know where I can find detailed photographs of the guy's work in the Dominican Republic? Are there any members out there who own one of his cars?
-
I am a member of AACA, and the 400 point system works very well. In judging a car, based on the official judging guidelines, the points are deducted, based on condition. There are max point deductions for different items, in the 4 areas judged, exterior, interior, chassis, engine,, max deductions for non-authentic paint color 40 pts, soft top if material is incorrect, 10 pts, etc. etc. I think that as a classic car the AACA is looking at examples of what a car would look like when coming from factory. Also you must drive your car to on to the show field. I think the MB concours is also looking at this in their 100 point system of judging. I do like the two classes of MBNA, street and show.
Now with that said, I do think that this should push value . If you have a 100 point Concurs, or a 400 point Senior or Grand Nation award winning car, values should be higher.
Bob
-
Check out what our cars have been doing in the past several months! The values are soaring to the stars. Check out what the graph has been doing since December!
http://www.hagerty.com/valuationtools/HVT/VehicleSearch/Report?vc=865182
-
Yes, and be sure to also look at the percentage adders Hagerty now has for 4-spd & 5-spd manual transmissions, for a/c, and for a hardtop.
-
Behind every silver lining ;)
The values will probably do what happened with the E Type Jaguar, that is they jumped big time for the 50th year and then slumped 25% the following year. As Hagerty said, its the 50 year factor. So all rush out and sell this year as next year, whilst all the parts prices will also rise accordingly, they will not have the comesurate fall next year so costs to keep your car going will rise sharply. :'( :'(
-
I think the values are being skewed by some recent sales from the Classic Center. They have exceptional cars for sale, at exceptional prices. I don't think they have a lock on exceptional cars, and don't think that private sales would command the same.
-
Perhaps this is just a temporary thing related to the 50th anniversary and to some classic center sales but I think it's more permanent. 190 SLs and 3.5 cabs are fetching in excess of 200K. Something is happening here.
-
Behind every silver lining ;)
The values will probably do what happened with the E Type Jaguar, that is they jumped big time for the 50th year and then slumped 25% the following year. As Hagerty said, its the 50 year factor.
I (and my car) am looking forward to being around for the 60th anniversary. Wonder what the prices will be then :D
John
-
So the hagerty graphs show the same spike at the same time for the 190SL and the 3.5 cabs. I'm now convinced that this phenomenon is unrelated to the 50th anniversary! How exciting!
-
In my personal opinion, there are a lot of factors...American muscle cars as "investments" have cooled, MB is getting a lot of attention with its new models, especially the SLS Gullwing a couple of years ago. That stirs interest in the "original" Gullwing of which less than 1500 were produced; 27 of those alloy bodies. They start selling for a million dollars or more, 300SL convertible's a half million and 190 SL's are heading up over two hundred thousand. So what's happening now seems to be that the since the first generation SL's are skyrocketing, it would make sense that the next generation would follow suit.
-
I am almost sure that the anniversary has nothing to do with it. Take a look at the car I sold before I got hooked on my Pagoda. Look up 1969 Ferrari 365 GT 2+2. it shows the same trend during the last six months. And that`s a V12 2+2 coupe, not even a 2-seater cabriolet.
Tom Kizer
-
Benz Dr., do you know where I can find detailed photographs of the guy's work in the Dominican Republic? Are there any members out there who own one of his cars?
I'm not sure if anyone on this forum has one of his cars or not. I know that one was sold to a guy from Toronto but I don't think he's member here.
I have quite a few pictures of work being done. PM me and I'll forward something to you.
-
Values are going up sharply here in Europe, which also is likely driving up prices in the U.S. as importers continue to scour the U.S. for affordable drivers and restorable heaps. One importer I talked to says it is getting harder and harder to find "buys" in the U.S., however, due to the rising interest in the W113s and awareness of their investment potential. And I suspect the 50th anniversary is driving up interest here, too, especially in Germany.
-
the prices (asked at least) are sharply up indeed. Here is what seems to be a nicely restored car offered after a restoration by a reputable shop in Poland. Nevertheless the price commands a deeper reflexion and some meditation as well :)
usual disclaimer
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1966-Mercedes-Benz-230SL-Roadster-4-spd-euro-w113-/330939644625?cmd=ViewItem&ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1&category=6338&ih=014&forcev4exp=true#ht_1000wt_1182
-
My '67 230 SL (coincidentally, which has a VIN very close to the car in Poland that Flyair flagged) has been undergoing an engine overhaul and some mechanical fixes for the past few months at the Van Dijk shop here in the Netherlands. Now that the engine is back in and the work is largely done, the appraiser came by the other day and I was pleasantly shocked at the value he gave to it: EUR 85,000. He said in Germany, I would fetch over 100K.
Granted, it is a very clean car, largely original, fully documented and now fully restored. But I was still surprised. I had been expecting maybe about 60-70K. I'm happy that I may one day recoup what I have invested in it, if I ever sell it, but it also makes me a bit sad for those who love these cars and can't afford even a decent driver at today's rising prices.
Brian
-
Prior to my purchase last month I made a lot of research about the 1969 Pagoda 280 SL (and others). I saw the car first in early March in a collectors local garage (he basically collects [and has the cars restored] 50s and 60s american cars). During my research here in Canada I saw prices ranging from $40K to $170K. Once I made my check list and inspected the car I was satisfied that I paid a fair price for the car.
I know I will spend more $$ to get her into perfect shape, still I'm very satisfied. Once I told my daughter what I was about to do she said "Dad this will be the only car you ever purchased that will actually increase in value" It's good enough for me for I have no intention to sell her. I plan to have fun with this car and get my fingers dirty once in a while :)
-
I don't think it's to do specifically with the Pagoda.
A 911T in need of a resto sold here last week for £26,000
http://www.historics.co.uk/buying/auctions/2013-06-01/car/porsche-911t-restoration.aspx?p=1
and another in need of "recommissioning" went for £48k
http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/20928/lot/149/?page_anchor=MR1_page_lots%3D2%26r1%3D50%26m1%3D1
Even the ugly duclkings of the 911s - the "impact bumper" cars are whizzing up - £35k for an SC is very strong money when they were in their teens not long ago
There's a lot of cash about (in some circles) looking for a home and the stock market risks, bank rates (and risk if you're in Cyprus), prior safe havens like gold are being hammered, bonds yield nothing as companies can borrow at such low rates from banks... and so on means that other items start getting attention. "Iconic" 60/70s/80s cars seem to among them - some are rising faster with that tide than others and our cars may be going faster than some but it's a general thing. For now...
(I was told recently by a specialist that I could get £75k for mine, when less than 2 years ago another specialist was talking of it being £50k - OK, engine rebuilt since then but 50% in under 2 years? ...)