Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: FEDJA on March 09, 2013, 02:48:39
-
I recently purchased a 1970 280SL. It was advertised as a "matching numbers engine" but after purchasing it and getting the data card, it turns out that it was not the original engine. It does have a correct 280SL engine. The seller wants to settle the matter and is willing to make a price adjustment. What percentage reduction in price would be fair?
-
That is an interesting question, often discussed on this forum by some who put great emphasis on matching numbers.
Given that all MB 280SL's had 280 engines the need for matching numbers was not as critical as say a Ford Mustang that in one year may have had more than one engine option or model and thus the opportunity to present a look a like higher end mustang such as a Shelby that started life as the lesser car. As I said, all 280's were 280's. The answer here has always been that all things equal, the matching numbers would be the better buy. I don't think I have ever seen anyone try to actually put a dollar figure on it.
Now that you have brought, the answer to your question may well be as much as you think you can get for the misrepresentation. Or alternatively give the car back and recover your money if you think the car is of such lesser value and desirability thus don't want a non matching numbers car. There will be plenty of others that don't find it a big issue. At least the seller appears to be genuine in resolving the dilemma which is a really good start.
Garry.
-
-10 to 15%
-
Kayvan,
I have to ask, can you qualify where are those figures are coming from as I have never seen it listed in any values books.
Garry
-
No hard evidence but....
Matching numbers is nice to have but having a properly rebuilt motor is also nice. Is your engine a factory replacement or just another engine swapped in from another car with no known history / mileage?
I was researching this issue and found that many 280sl's had problems with too much oil consumption based on a design issue so certain engines were regularily replaced instead of being rebuilt.
I have a factory replacement engine in my car and instead of a serial number on it, the plate has a part number from mercedes representing a european replacement engine supplied by mercedes (what they told me at the Mercedes dealer). It was explained to me that since there were no options on engines like say a mopar of the same era, a replacement engine can be more desirable (not investment value) than having the original engine that may or may not have been rebuilt at one time by a shade tree mechanic. The same mechanic also told me that many heads warped so a replacement engine would have had the problem fixed properly rather than having somebody who may or may not know how to work on these engines fix it.
I only have a total of 80k miles on my car and the engine was replaced in the mid 70s and now has 25k miles on it suggesting it was replaced at 50k miles (only incurring 7k miles since 1988). The mechanic I talked to said that he would much rather have the replacement engine if he was going to drive the car - if it was going to hit the show circuit then a matching numbers car would be nice but he would make sure he took a real good look at the engine to see if there were signs of a porper rebuild in the absence of receipts.
I would be interested to hear if any judging types detract points from a show car for a factory replacement engine.
-
I have just read the MBC of America concours d'elegance score sheet and notes and there is no mention of points deduction for rebuilt or correct replacement of engine. They do stress authenticity and items swapped out for incorrect replacement parts, and I take it that includes engines, should lose points for authenticity. Maybe Michael Salemi may care to wade in here.
In my case I opted to have the original engine block rebuilt with a new OEM head. I think it is a nice to have matching numbers but in the big picture only when all else is equal in comparing two like cars will it attract some intrinsic value. How much is in the eye of the beholder.
-
It's quite easy to replace the engine number with the original number. Number die sets are easily available so one just grinds off old number and punches in the 'correct' one. That's of course deception but, once done, what does it all mean? This was told to me by a reputable restorer of our cars.
-
I'd say right up there close to zero reduction in price. In fact, I'm rather dismayed to hear that anyone would shake down a seller based on criteria that really doesn't even fit this car. Ther engine matches the car - it has a 280SL engine.
Guys? Rather than presenting the option to start such nonsense, in other words - putting a price on it, it would be more pruedent to discourage people from looking fpr price reductions on things that don't matter.
If it was a 100 point 150K car listed as all matching then maybe - but I doubt that's the case here.
-
Certainly here in the UK the question never arises. Nobody gives a stuff if the engine is original or not.
However, if the seller has used such a description in order to elevate the price of the car then he has mis-represented that car and should pay from his pocket.
How much should he pay though? That's not so easy to answer but if I was the buyer I would definately want him to give me some money back out of principle. If I was otherwise happy with the car I would consider giving the refund to charity because I would be berating myself for not excercising due diligence in the first place.
-
At the risk of drawing Dan's ire, I would suggest something like $500.
My Pagoda no longer has its original engine, but a rebuilt one (by JA17, I bet that makes it special, it certainly does to me) and it's a factory replacement block without a plate or number. Although I have one of those die sets I chose to keep things as they are, 'original' as it were.
Now my 73 El Camino does have its original engine and I do like that idea, and to me that's worth about $500, assuming no other differences in engine condition, technically.
-
Fedja, it basically comes down to you. Some people are anal about matching numbers and others couldn't give a stuff. You don't say what you paid for the car, what condition it is in or what you plan to use it for (daily driver or showing). You just have to ask yourself if you had known it was not numbers matching, what price would you have been willing to pay for the car, or would you have even bought the car? Then take it from there.
-
In American muscle car that's a rule of thumb
Certain cars: Hemi, 427, 454, 429CJ are as valuable as the car, and as long as its period correct...there is a minor adjustment
Now that doesn't apply to dropping a mustang engine into a Shelby!
Email Gooding, RM Auctions or Bonhams.....they have seen alot of #s
In general, its akin to having a desirable option: which has a delta of +15% in many cases.
I would disagree its a shakedown; if seller markets its as "numbers matching" then he has an obligation to back that up.
I would ask for %10 and treat yourself to a new steering wheel, Convertible top or woodkit or some other upgrade! ;)
-
At the risk of drawing Dan's ire, I would suggest something like $500.
My Pagoda no longer has its original engine, but a rebuilt one (by JA17, I bet that makes it special, it certainly does to me) and it's a factory replacement block without a plate or number. Although I have one of those die sets I chose to keep things as they are, 'original' as it were.
Now my 73 El Camino does have its original engine and I do like that idea, and to me that's worth about $500, assuming no other differences in engine condition, technically.
500 bucks??!!! I guess it's always easier to spend money that isn't yours. ::) I was thinking maybe beer and chicken wings; and if the guy doesn't drink, then iced tea would be OK.
I doubt that the seller knew about the engine number deal or he wouldn't have used that in the ad. We did see the ad, right?
-
I was researching this issue and found that many 280sl's had problems with too much oil consumption based on a design issue so certain engines were regularily replaced instead of being rebuilt.
My 280 SL was one of those cars with a defective engine and it was replaced under warranty at 20K miles. To me, it made the car much more drivable (no more excessive oil consumption) and I didn't give a hoot if the engine had a different number (or in my case no number). I was just happy that MB made it right. If that fact lower's the value of the car today, so be it.
John
-
My 280 SL was one of those cars with a defective engine and it was replaced under warranty at 20K miles. To me, it made the car much more drivable (no more excessive oil consumption) and I didn't give a hoot if the engine had a different number (or in my case no number). I was just happy that MB made it right. If that fact lower's the value of the car today, so be it.
John
We have a wide variety of quotes: from beer and chicken wings ($10) via my $500 to a whopping 10% which could be about $5,000! So I guess this group doesn't know what the correction ought to be, really.
-
I think that after reading this thread many members rushed to their cars and code cards to make sure theirs beauties had the right pedigree matching in avery detail. So did I, and now I can sleep well again, THEY DO MATCH in my Pagoda…. such a relief :D
-
Depends on the overall condition of the car and how "original" the car may or may not be. Also depends on the selling price. Best case your probably looking at a $3K credit.
-
3K - 5K ? ??? :o I think my ire is about to go up a bit. >:(
So far, our OP has said nothing more than his three posts and nothing more about this post. Not a problem with that but it's kind of like dropping a silent fart at crowed party, slipping out the side door, and then letting everyone rush to judgment as to who did it resulting in some interesting dialog.
Don't get me started..............
-
I think the fallacy here is that we are trying to apply a standard that is very significant in the American '60s-'70s muscle cars to our cars. An early '70s Barracuda, for example, could be ordered with everything from a 195 cu in slant six to a 426 hemi. Production numbers and desirability affect the resulting values to the point that one can be 100 times more valuable than the other. With our cars, that is simply not the case. The only engine differences are designated by the corresponding model numbers.
When I was at PUB '11, my '69 was being "tuned" by Joe Alexander. He commented that I had a factory replacement engine. When I kind of grimaced, he said "no, that's a good thing."
In my opinion, only in the case of a significant preserved original car (as Brian Peters has in his current listing for $180K) would the engine number be of any concern to a buyer. Only if you had a wrong engine for the model (ie 250 engine in a 280) would any appreciable difference in value apply.
JMO
-
I think the fallacy here is that we are trying to apply a standard that is very significant in the American '60s-'70s muscle cars to our cars. An early '70s Barracuda, for example, could be ordered with everything from a 195 cu in slant six to a 426 hemi. Production numbers and desirability affect the resulting values to the point that one can be 100 times more valuable than the other. With our cars, that is simply not the case. The only engine differences are designated by the corresponding model numbers.
When I was at PUB '11, my '69 was being "tuned" by Joe Alexander. He commented that I had a factory replacement engine. When I kind of grimaced, he said "no, that's a good thing."
In my opinion, only in the case of a significant preserved original car (as Brian Peters has in his current listing for $180K) would the engine number be of any concern to a buyer. Only if you had a wrong engine for the model (ie 250 engine in a 280) would any appreciable difference in value apple.
JMO
I can't add anything to this well written post.
-
In my opinion, only in the case of a significant preserved original car (as Brian Peters has in his current listing for $180K) would the engine number be of any concern to a buyer. Only if you had a wrong engine for the model (ie 250 engine in a 280) would any appreciable difference in value apple.
I also can totally agree with this.