Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Body, interior, paint, chrome, and cosmetic items => Topic started by: jmbour on December 05, 2012, 14:53:47
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The speedometer and the odometer of my 1971 280 S don't work.
I am sorry to add my problems to all of those who already had the same and described it in the forum, but :
As I am working on the dashboard to replace the heater levers (radio, clock, lighter and heater system have been pulled out of the dashboard, using the very useful information on the forum ), I am looking for a way to look also at the speedometer, at least take it out to check if the problem is with the speedometer or with the cable.
I have already tried to get access to the speedo knob form behind, but I find it quite impossible, taking account of the number of cables and wires under the dash.
Is there an easy way to get to the speedo from the radio and heating system hole in the dash, or is it necessary to access from the other side (i.e. taking the rev counter and central unit out) to reach the speedo ?
There is a mention in the forum of an "under-dash cover on the driver's side" which needs to be removed, but I don't see it.
Is there any detailed information or picture on this procedure (other or in addition to the information in the forum)?
Thanks for your help
JMB
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Hello,
it's extremly difficult to remove the speedometer from the radio side because there is a stiffener in between. You need child hands to come along. It's better and as I think easier to do it from the left and remove the odometer first. Under the dashboard are normally under-dashboard covers (3 pieces: left, middle, right; see www.sls-hh-shop.de/index.php/cat/c3_Mercedes-Benz-230SL-250SL-280SL-Pagode--R113-W113-.html/XTCsid/l2ipue6m49vknf76a4hmrgdnk0#cat_122 ), only stucked or fixed with 1-2 screws. But often these covers are rotten and removed.
You have to rest on the driver seat or better without it and find your way with your right arm underneath the dashboard and find the knurled screw to remove the holder that fixes the odometer. Just press very carefully on the odometer to release the holder and the screw a little bit.
....WRe
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http://www.pagodentreff.de/diskussionsforum/t2157-baut-man-tacho.html
Maybe you need to register first to the German Pagoda forum but it's free.
...WRe
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WRe,
You forgot to mention that prior knowledge of German would immensely help taking advantage of the www.pagodentreff.de website ;)
Google translate does not always get it right, unfortunately ;D
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Thanks to WRe and FLYair :
the link with SLS doesn't work. Do you mean the plastic (or MBtex) parts under the dash ? When I take them out, it does not help, because all the under dash is metallic no hole or way to access easily to the the upper back of the dash.
I am not proficient in german, and the Google translation is sometimes very special, but I am confused, because it seems that some tried and succeeded in taking out the speedometer from the right side (radio and glovebox holes).
Conclusion : I will try again, but I would prefer not to touch the tachometer and the central unit because of the oil and temperature sensors.
JMB
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Have a read through here in the Tech Manual
http://www.sl113.org/wiki/Electrical/DashboardInstruments
or more specifically
http://www.sl113.org/wiki/Electrical/RevCounter#CableProblems
That may help.
Garry
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Bonjour,
Ce problème de démontage des instruments non concerne tous un jour ou l'autre, je n'y ai pas fait exception et à plusieurs reprises, au début ça prend la tête et à force ça devient presque amusant.
Quand il n'y a plus d'autoradio ou plaque à la place, le démontage du speedo par le côté droit ne pose pas de problème à moins d'avoir des mains et doigts énormes, il faut les glisser de part et d'autre de la forêt de fils c'est vrai.
On peut également démonter la boite à gants (pas très dur) et passer par là car l'angle de travail est alors moins aïgu et cela facilite le geste.
Enfin si vous voulez commencer de gauche à droite, ouvrez grand la portière, reculez le siège conducteur à fond, moi j'avais placé une glacière de 100 litres dans l'embrasure de la porte, une ou deux couvertures épaisses tassées en avant des pédales afin de faire un plan assez rectiligne sur lequel je pouvais m'allonger sur le dos et travailler la tête appuyée sur les pédales...
Effectivement le démontage des garnitures inférieures n'aide pas beaucoup.
Le travail je l'ai (re) fait il y a quelques mois, ça a failli me coûter mon mariage, bon courage, mais quelle satisfaction une fois terminé ;=)
Fred from Nouméa
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Fred
Nous en sommes infiniment heureux que vous avez réussi de garder les deux: et votre femme bien-aimée et votre voiture certainement non moins-aimée ;D. Meme si en Nouvelle-Calédonie les belles doudous qui arrivent a faire tourner la tête extrêmement facilement pullulent partout ;). Au risque d'être désagréable pour ces dames, je parie qu'il serait plus facile de remplacer sa bien-aimée que trouver une Pagoda, en tous cas dans les DomToms ;)
By the way, maybe the SLS link did not work as they just remodeled their website, which is now a bit more attractive in my view as well as more user-friendly.
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To Fred and FLYair :
It will be easier to exchange in french, as it does not seem there is an official language of the forum :
J'ai bien lu et relu toutes les (excellentes) informations contenues dans le forum.
Elles m'ont été très utiles pour le démontage du tableau de bord (boite à gants, radio, montre, allume cigare et boitier de commande du chauffage).
Après avoir changé les commandes, il me reste à remonter le tout, ce qui sera certainement encore moins facile que le démontage.
Donc j'hésite beaucoup à me lancer encore dans le compteur de vitesse, le compte tours (qui émet des bruits bizarres surtout à froid, problème largement décrit dans le forum), et le rhéostat (là aussi, le forum fournit toutes les informations).
Je comprends qu'il n'y a pas de solution miracle, et qu'il faudra que je me lance un jour.
Je vous remercie pour vos encouragements et témoignages qui prouvent en tout cas que cela est possible.
JMB
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???
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Hi, Larry,
I didn't want to exclude you from this interesting debate on the pros and cons of reaching the speedo from the right or from the left side (which is the reverse for a RHD).
With all the valuable information from the forum, it is up to me do decide If and when I will take the risk.
Regards,
JMB
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Hi,
I hope this SLS-link (new in English) will work: www.sls-hh-shop.de/en/230-280SL-W113/68-Covering/68-d-Covering-under-dashboard/
...WRe
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Hi all,
Thanks WRe, The link works well : the under dash cover on the driver's side is missing on my car (that's why I had a problem in locating it).
I looked more thoroughly under the dash and saw that you need to discard at least all the relays and cables to reach the tacho.
So I went back to the right side and finally get to the knob behind the speedo, from the radio and glove box holes (I had also taken the heater control unit off, which helps a lot).
Now the speedo is out of the car and I would like to test it, in order to determine if it is faulty, or if the problem comes from the cable.
Do you have suggestions ?
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Bonjour JMB,
J'ai effectue ce travail il y a juste quelques jours. Pour ma part je passe par la gauche: d'abord demonter le rembourrage sous le tableau de bord, puis les relais(?) qui tiennent par deux vis. A partir de la, en se meurtrissant bien la main, il est possible d'atteindre la molette derriere le compte tours. Une fois ce dernier sorti, on atteint facilement (par l'ouverture du compte tours) la molette derriere le combine central que l'on sort parrtiellement pour enfin atteindre la molette derrriere le compteur. C'est plus facile en tournant le volant d'un quart de tour vers la gauche afin de profiter du decroche du cerceau de klaxon.
Pour tester le cable, si la voiture roule, il suffit de faire le tour du quartier et de regarder si le cable tourne. Sinon, on peut bricoler qqchose avec une perceuse et faire tourner le compteur, mais je n'ai jamais essaye.
Il arrive souvent que le compteur kilometrique ne fonctionne plus alors que le compteur de vitesse fonctionne toujours. Dans ce cas c'est une molette dessertie de son axe. C'est reparable avec de la patience.
Bonne chance !
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This is an English site guys and protocol would have it that you use English so all can join in the discussion please.
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Thanks, GGR ( I lived in Washington DC from 1996 to 2004, and bought my 280 SL there),
We don't want to open a linguistic war !
I intend to drive the car (not too long, because I don't like having the battery on with all the cables loose under the dash) to check the cable.
For checking the speedo, I think a drill will be OK, but at what speed ? and is it clockwise or counter clockwise ?
JMB
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Driving the car around will tell you which direction the cable is turning. If not then the cable will be the culprit anyway.
This is an English site guys and protocol would have it that you use English so all can join in the discussion please.
Garry, what protocol ? I re-read the forum's charter and conditions of use and I didn't see any language specified (If I missed it please direct me to the rule). On the other hand, first paragraph of the charter states that this is an international forum, therefore open to people of all nationalities that may, or may not, be comfortable in English. I agree that English is the language mastered by most of us (but isn't it due to a language selection already?) and it's only common sense to use English as a vehicular language on this forum in the great majority of cases and discussions. I also agree that in this particular case we could have had the conversation in English as all its participants do master written English. But as far as I know, no rule or protocol specifies this forum as being "an English site” and I feel that members should be free to exchange a few words in any language if it pleases them to do so, especially when they are not that comfortable in English (some threads may be written in good English but other members do not realize the work and time spent for that by members who want to post in proper English when this is not a language they master fully – I know what I’m talking about, as I was a car enthusiast long before being fluent in English). I realize your concern about all being able to join the discussion (apart from the ones that are not comfortable in English?), but this is coming at a potential cost of having some international participants cut off the discussion, when some others could have translated if needed.
I believe that imposing English as a strict rule is cutting a great number of international owners from sharing their experiences and from getting support when they need it. You may have Pagoda owners in South America, Asia, Middle East or Africa that are being cut off from this community just because of language when I’m sure that among all members we master enough languages to help out a non English speaker owner or even translate if needed. We should compare pagoda sales around the world and see if this is represented in this site’s membership. I’m ready to bet that English speaking countries are over represented.
I’ve been several times on German websites and posted in English because my German is too poor to hold a conversation. I’ve always been helped out, some members sometimes translating in German for other members to be also able to help out. I’ve never been told “this is a German site and protocol would have it that I have to use German”. I’ve also seen people post in Spanish, Italian, German, English and other languages on French Citroen DS forums (DS is the other car I cherish) and I’ve always seen other members trying to help out, or calling other members in the discussion because they know the language etc. Never seen these international owners being told to shift their language if they wanted to go on participating. I find this quite rude, especially on an international forum, and by people who do not have to make the effort to write all their posts in a foreign language.
Of course Garry, please don't feel offended. I'm reacting because this is not the first time I see this happening on this site in discussions involving other languages (Spanish being one I remember) and other participants. No need to say that I didn't see these international non english speaking participants go on posting actively on this forum afterwards.
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Hello !
I agree with GGR.
It is always a pleasure to see a few words in french. Sometimes it's easier and more precise to use its own native language, mainly when the discussion deals with highly technical topics. I even understand that a lot of technical terms are different from English to American English, not speaking about Australian.
However, I admit that I have problems with German on German MB or Pagoda oriented forums.
But this could be avoided with the use of Gloogle translator or any other translation software, as far as they will improve.
Reverting to our discussion : this morning I tested the speedo with a small screwdriver turned BY HAND to THE LEFT (counter clockwise), and THE NEEDLE MOVED.
So it seems you don't need a drill which could damage the speedo mechanism, and it has to be turned to the left (looking at the back of the speedo or to the right if you look a the end of the cable).
I think that it is all I can do by myself.
I envisage to bring the car to a garage to have the cable changed or the connection to the gearbox repaired if necessary.
In the meantime, I wonder if I could easily take off the bezel and the glass to clean the inside of the glass and eventually convert the scale from MPH to KM/H, or if I can find somebody to do this job.
JMB
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JMB, changing a speedo cable is not that difficult, especially if you're able to do a job like replacing the heater levers.
You should still try driving around to see if the cable moves. Sometimes it is just that the cable is not properly engaged in the speedo.
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OK, I have taken the heater levels out; I need now to put them back in place, with all the cables well attached.
From the forum, I understand that you need to disengage the speedo cable from the gearbox, which means you have to get the car on a stand
is it right ? or could I only take the cable off and put the new one form the upper end ?
But you are right : I need to drive the car to see if the cable turns.
JMB
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Yes, you need to disconnect the cable from the trans to replace it. Jack the car in the front left, secure with a jack stand or anything else just in case the jack fails, lie under the car on the left side. The cable connects at the back of the trans just before the output flange. take the 10mm bolt/pin out and pull on the cable. Replace new one in reverse order.
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Hi JMB,
I don't know whether this is useful information as to where you are at right now.
I was told by an old timer mechanic that deals with these matters all the time is that you need to turn your wipers on so that the blade stops in the vertical position. This will give you a little more room to fit a generous mechanic's hand into the space instead of a child's hand.
Hope this helps.
Saleem
Sydney Australia
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Hi all
Just few last words about language because I think I'm the first who recently used my native language and that caused big trouble.I feel guilty.
GGR said all I wanted to say. I hadn't seen any rule concerning language to be used on this forum. Besides I honestly thought that few words in our language could bring a bit of of french charming touch...
Obviously that was not appreciated at all .I understood and I won't do it again. I'm very sorry about that and apologise.
But Garry you could have been smoother with us or with the same sense use the famous australian humour that I often appreciate and will soon appreciate once more when I come for holidays in your country.
All I wanted to say to JMB (thanks God I read Garry's response before posting the answer I had prepared in french...) is to verify before the test drive that the oil pressure pipe is well connected to the center cluster otherwise engine oil will splash into the dash and on the carpets. It happened to me as a good beginner because working for a long time on the instruments can make you forget important things sometimes.
We only are humans.
The other and last thing is at the point where you are you can go for total dash work. I agree the most difficult is behind you and if you had noises in the cables before stop working they obviously need lubrication. There are much posts concerning this subject. Personnally I used medical perfusion needelles and seryngues. I slowly injected gearbox oil. The space aound the cable is very narrow and it's difficult to find the good diameter of needlle rergarding viscosity of the oil employed. For me it worked well and (temporarily) solved the noise and bouncing needelles problem on both counters.
Yours sincerely.
Kind regards.
Fred from Nouméa
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Hi Fred,
Sorry if I have come over bluntly, was not my intent, but as you also see when Larry did his ??? as a gentle hint, often members just read the postings with out actually adding anything but are learning little tricks from the posts. Saleems post below about centring the wipers is the classic example that would have been lost to 90%of members here if it was in French. Everyone here would speak English in some form where the alternative site, Pagode.de is a German speaking Pagoda site used a lot by the European people and is in German only.
I actually think it is written into our protocols here but could not find it. It has come up before with the same comments.
So don't feel bad, its not that it is not appreciated, it is just to allow everyone to participate either in the discussion or learn from others. Normally its Alfred or Peter who comment on languageand they are much blunter than me ;D ;D
Garry
Now if you are coming to Melbourne I expect you to look me up and I will buy you a beer or three. ;)
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..... Normally its Alfred or Peter who comment on languageand they are much more blunter than me ;D ;D ..
Garry,
When it comes to bluntness, nobody beats an Aussie! :o
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Thank you guys this time I loughed loud.
I accept the beer invitation with pleasure next time.
Beating Aussie people by french happened maybe once on a rugby field during all story but I'm not even sure.
Cheers.
Fred
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I agree with stopping the wipers in the vertical position, you must also then disconnect the battery.
If you accidently start the wipers when your hand is up behind the dasboard it is going to hurt
big time :-\
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Hello, all
Thanks for all these advices and suggestions.
We may have our personal opinion on the "official" language of the forum, but finally, this discussion seems to attract a lot of interest.
It means at least that a lot of us had problems with their instruments, and that there are different ways and means to get through them.
That's why this forum is very useful.
I get my speedo out from the dash by reaching it from the glove box hole (you have to engage your arm, but it is possible to get to the knurled nut).
I had no problem with the wipers mechanism. It appears that the problem is only for RHD cars.
I also will have no difficulty with the oil pipe(or the temperature sensor) in the central unit, as I didn't disconnect or touch it. This was the main reason why I preferred to get to the speedo from the right side.
Let me drive the car and check the cable, and we will see what will be the next step.
JMB
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I also will have no difficulty with the oil pipe(or the temperature sensor) in the central unit, as I didn't disconnect or touch it. This was the main reason why I preferred to get to the speedo from the right side.
You don't need to disconnect anything from the central unit. you can push it out enough to access the nut behind the speedo. (for next time, when your heater lever system wille back in place).
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GGR,
The part number for the speedo cable is A1135420507.
It is available from MB classic, and I found some on Ebay at around half price.
But the pics on Ebay seem to show the full cable (inner and outer cables together).
How did you proceed ? did you replace only the inner cable or both ?
To saleen :
You are right, turning the wipers could provide a little more room.
I could be useful to put back the speedo in place.
JMB
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My case is a bit special as m car is fittted with a Getrag 265 transmission and the cable is not the same. So I will leave it to others to chime in with their experience.
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End of the story.
I ordered a new speedo cable, but, and had a mechanic to replace the old one.
He told me that the bolt which is supposed to hold the end of the cable to the gearbox was missing.
In fact, maybe it wasn't even necessary to replace the cable (and, of course to take off the speedo from the dash).
My advice : if your speedo doesn't work, the first thing to do is check that the cable is well linked to the output of the gearbox, and only then get to the other end.
This will save you a lot of work, hassle and money.
The speedometer is now working, and I have just to put everything back on the dashboard (heater unit, clock, radio and glove box).
The next step will be to fix the tachometer "screaming" (I hope some oil will be enough).
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Gentlemen,
I like to learn at every opportunity, and that includes languages. I hope I'm not alone in requesting, where you have the capability, to post in English AND your native language. That way we can all follow the discussion and those that are inclined can get some additional educational benefit!
What's the French for "happy spannering"? ;D
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What's the French for "happy spannering"? ;D
Bon bricolage !
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Merci!
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Merci!
D’ailleurs, en bricolant sur le bord de la route, il faut bien faire attention à ne pas se prendre la cravate dans la courroie du ventilateur ! (ce qui nécessiterait tout de même quelques contorsions avec un Pagode !)
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I'm afraid the last post isn't compliant with my request to post in both languages and therefore offers nothing in the way of education!
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Well well well, it's saying that in case you're happy spannering by the side of the road, you should make sure not to get your tie into the fan belt ! (though this would involve some interesting contortions to get in such a situation with a Pagoda).
As per learning, given that you're posting in your native language, you should choose a foreign language in which you would translate all your posts. You would become bilangual in no time !
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Grazi! ;D
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GGR
tout dépend si lesdites contorsions se font en présence d'une jolie dame qui - par définition - se trouve sur le siège passager ou non... :D
it all depends if such contortions are performed in the presence of a pretty lady who - by definition - is located on the passenger site or not… :D
to zaleźy czy wspomniane wygibasy są wykonywane w obecności urodziwej pani, która - z definicji - znajduje się na fotelu pasazera, czy nie... :D
es hängt alles davon, wenn solche Verrenkungen in der Gegenwart von einer hübschen Dame, die - per Definition - auf dem Beifahrersitz befindet oder nicht... :D
eso depende de si tales contorsiones se realizan en presencia de una guapa señora que - por definición - se encuentra en el sitio del pasajero o no... :D
here is what could be a multilingual SL113 website ;D
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tutto dipende se tali contorsioni sono eseguite in presenza di una bella signora che - per definizione - si trova sul sedile del passeggero o no ... :D
Avec le pare-brise au milieu, ça serait quand même du sportif ! Manquerait plus que le capot se referme !
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Dear all,
Back in the early days, this site had both an English speaking section and a Spanish speaking forum. Partly because it was a Yahoo based forum, and partly because we had a Spanish board member. After about a year the Spanish forum had about 80 messages, and the main, English speaking forum about 3000. Most of the Spanish threads died with a link to an English message with "the answer".
When I needed to conserve space on the forum (as we ran out with the software package) we all decided to kill the Spanish section.
Garry, there is nothing in the rules to prevent people from posting in their native language. However, ultimately it will die out as the majority of answers will be in English, even if the question is not asked in English.
So for those who read all messages, a bunch of messages in a language they cannot understand is boring... That's why we try to keep messages in English, the Lingua Franca of this site.Sure, I could produce a French section, or a Dutch one (we have enough space now) but it will wither on the vine just like the Spanish one.
So please all play along. Post in your own language if you must... But if you like an answer please add English.
Remember: Google Translate is not up to every job yet!
Peter
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So why is it we start to get foreign language spam that needs to be removed in the morning?
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We were just having a light conversation among polyglot pagoda enthusiasts. Qualifying it of spamming is quite derogatory. No need to remove anything, there is nothing inapropriate.
I agree with Peter, the lingua franca is English, and these short parentheses in foreign languages will die by themselves, no need to open any section in any other languages. But the group is what it is, gathering people from various origins, and this is part of its richness. Various cultures are represented, and some members who are interested in other's cultures have made the effort of learning their language, and like exchanging in it. I realize it may be a challenge to moderate in languages one does not understand, but we're among civilized people, and some flexibility and a little trust may apply.
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GGR
I think you missed what I was asking Peter, and your fine use of language appears to confirm that.
What most members don't see is that over night the forum gets spammed from all over the world. 2332 as at todays date. Our filters stop most and people like me, given that I am up when you are asleep, then clean up our forum pages of the spams that do not get stopped by the filters. Every time people put new languages on here we seem to then get a rise in spammings in that language going on for the following weeks. The spam today that got through was in French for Feng Shui items out of China. I didn't clean it off so that you could see what was happening, Peter did it instead, obviously before you got to see it in the "Other Cars" area. Having had more than 35 years in the Australian Defence Force, more than half of it in non English Countries, I have spent a lot of time in Language Schools learning four different languages. Including three years in USA. I think I know more than most about cultural norms and the use of a foreign language.
So the question was, why is it that we appear to get hit with spamming every time someone does postings here in a foreign language.
I dont know the answer, I sought out Peter as I thought Peter with his background would.
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Garry,
Your post changed my perception of what the use of other languages than English may have in a forum like ours. So let's forget the "French touch" or "Spanish linguistic corridas", not even mentioning (in my case ;)) any Polish jokes ;)…
But seriously, your explanation gives another dimension and perspective to the work The Board members do. However, I think that after your post, the rest of us, humble forum post-typers would be scared like hell to postulate for the job for the next several terms...
By the way, it is interesting that you went to USA to study languages…. So - out of the four - American would be one of them… I guess?
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Same here, I had missed that completely and misinterpreted your post. Sorry for that. I didn't know about the spamming issue. Thanks for clearing that up and for the good work.
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Stan,
Lived in Kampuchea, Egypt and Israel and the final one for only two years in 1999-2000 was Malaysia due to the East Timor deployments plus three years in Philadelphia. Thankfully I only had to adapt to the US language. Defence has its own language school that you have to go to for 3 - 6 months at a time prior to posting to these places. Great life if you want to see the world. Difficult to settle down in a 'home town'
And I am nominating you both to go on to the Board in the next round of elections in a year or so. Will be needing a new Membership Secretary for the 'non Americas. :o
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Working both in Egypt and in Israel with a military perspective must have been an interesting experience.
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Shot at in one and stoned in the other, literally :o.
But we have digressed from the original speedo problem of JMB ;D
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I too hadn't realised the implications of trying to garner more than just Pagoda talk from the forum. I have however now learned something about the pros and cons of foreign military service and the difficulties in managing a forum so am truly a more rounded individual as a result.
What speedo?
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Garry and Stick
That was also my question: for once we are talking serious stuff here, so what speedo? ???
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The original post was JMB having a problem with his speedo and difficulty accessing his speedo cable at the rear of the instruments and all the follow on discussion centred on how to access it. Saleem, with a RHD car also pointed out the centring of the wipers that allowed greater access. I was interested in Saleem's suggestion and confirmed by Larrys as the correct method in a RHD as I have my dash in pieces at the restoration workshop and hoping to get it back together this week. In another post i am being asked how I am going to get the instruments back in with the radio and glove box already fitted. I think the answer is with great difficulty having read the posts here.
In JMB's case he ordered a new speedo cable that apparently fixed the problem. It is clearly easier in a LHD car to get to it.
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Hello all,
Let me close the discussion on the speedo :
as I couldn't easily get under the car to reach the cable end on the box side, I let a mechanic do it.
He found that there was a missing bolt, which he replaced.
So I will not konw if the problem was with the missing bolt, or with the cable, but the speedo is now working well (in fact, it seems to be pessimistic, compared to the tacho indications, I will have to check with a GPS).
The mechanic doesn't seem to have great problems in putting the speedo back on the dashboard (always from the right side). He also repl
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(following of previous message)
He also replaced the O_ring of the heater control valve, which was totally stuck (not easy to reach).
It was a long and difficult task to put the heater control unit back in place, but I learn a lot, and it will be easier next time, with experience.
The tech manual was very helpful. Without it, and its very useful information and pics, I would not have started this process.
Now I have a "new" dashboard with everything working again : speedo, heater unit and clock (revised by JDO instruments in UK).
Next projects : fix a rattling window, and by pass the rheostat, operations which are also very well described in the tech manual.