Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: J. Huber on July 03, 2004, 07:35:29
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Hi and help!
Has anyone recently installed rear Bilsteins? I am about to but cannot figure out the instructions re: the order and orientation of the rubber & washers. None of the examples seem to match the parts that came with.
Unfortunately, the ones coming out are not Bilsteins so I can't use them as a guide.
Thanks. (and any specifics/pics would be greatly appreciated!)
James
63 230SL
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James.
I just ordered Bilsteins for my 280SL. It should be a fairly streight forward job. Whatseems to be the problem?
Bob Geco
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Hey Bob.
I too am under the impression it is a pretty straight-forward job for the average Joe. (Which of course means it will be next to impossible for me...)
I haven't started taking old ones out yet -- just wanted to study the shocks and the order of the parts that will go in. The problem is I find the information sheet that came with them totally confusing. It basically has every configuration of every shock type but with no specifics to 113s. Nor do the pictures seem to match the kit included. Its in German as well, but that part I can usually get around. So I thought if anyone has recently figured it out, they could share the secret code... Good luck with yours and please post if you understand it all.
James
63 230SL
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Hello james,
Start by placing one of the washers on the shock shaft. If you look at the washer it has a recess which fits over the snap ring on the shock shaft. Make sure the recess side of the washer is down on the snap ring. Next add rubber grommet, then install the rubber cover. Now install the top of the shock in the car. Once the shock top is in place add a rubber bushing and a washer. Cup the washer up this time. Now install one of the wider nuts. Next you can go under the car and compress the shock and slide it on the mounting shaft on the rear axle. Use a little silicone grease, vasaline, or a bit of auto transmission fluid on the shaft to help the shock slide on. Regular grease is not good for the rubber. After fastening the shock below, go to the shock top and tighten up the 17mm nut until the shock shaft begins to turn. At this point the nut should be bottomed out. Those wratcheting box end wrenches work great here. Next tighten the second skinnier nut to lock both in place.
The fronts can be a bit more difficult. One thing I do is to compress the shock with the rubber boot installed and use a water hose clamp around the rubber boot to keep the shock copressed until it is in place. Once the bottom of the shock is in place, loosen the hose clamp and guide the shock shaft into it's mounting hole. Don't miss, the end of the shock shaft can push a dent into the fender from below!
Let us know how it feels with the new Bilstiens, I think you,ll be pleased.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Hi Joe. I just about understand your instructions (the "just about" is on my end not yours...)
The shock already has the equivilent of an upfacing cup washer on it. Is this the one you suggested I start with? or should another washer go next?
Then I get that I place a rubber donut next. Here is another snag. The kit came with two rubber guys, one is a bit larger and more like the sway bar bushing. The other smaller one is more rounded at the top. So which do ya suppose goes on before the shock goes in place?
Next, the new shock did not have a dust sleeve, and the old one does not either? Safe to not use one?
Once shock is in place, I understand that another rubber bushing goes next, then upward facing cup washer ... then the lock nut that came with new shock. (there is only one, but old one has a second ...)
Sorry to be so dense -- just want to be sure...
PS. Until this time, I thought you got to top of the shock from trunk. I now see that there are access holes in the soft-top boot...
James
63 230SL
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Hello James,
The washer that is already on the shock should be the right one to start with. If you look closely at the bottom of this washer where it meets the shaft you'll see the snap ring seated in a small recess in the bottom of the washer. The large rubber grommet goes on first. A dust cover is not always used on rear shocks now that you mention it. the fronts will have the dust cover. These new shocks may have one lself-locking nut only? If so one nut is fine. If it is a locking nut you will have to hold the little flattened end of the shaft while tightening the nut because the shaft will try to spin.
These are very good questions. Don't hesitate to ask. If you are taking non factory parts off or the design has changed, you have nothing to go by.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Thanks Joe, Bob, Jeff, (George) and others. This has been very helpful. As soon as I have 5.5 hours free, I will tackle this 1.5 hour job...
James
63 230SL
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Hello, James,
I just did this job this morning, and will pass on what I learned. I replaced Bilstein with Bilstein, which doesn't mean the old ones were on correctly, but the following instructions are based on how the parts on the old shocks were arranged:
1. There are three washers supplied with the new shock. The largest one goes on the top and the other two on the bottom.
2. There are two rubber doughnuts supplied. The smaller one looks like an angel food cake, and it goes right on top of the flanged washer that is already on the shock. The round side of the cake goes up.
3. To remove the old shocks, remove the nuts on the top before jacking up the car. The pressure makes it easier to take off the nuts without the shock shaft turning.
4. After these nuts are off, jack up the car until the wheel is almost off the ground. Then remove the 17mm bolt holding the bottom of the shock on.
5. Prise the bottom off. I used the all-purpose handle on my socket rachet.
6. After putting the smaller rubber doughnut on the top of the shaft, put the top of the shaft through the upper hole. Mine (230sl) exits in the trunk, but yours may be different.
7. Now slip the bottom on the bolt holder. Mine didn't need any lubricant, but it may help.
8. Put on the middle-size washer. It should fit just over the bolt holder.
9. Put on the smallest washer. The cupped side will go over the end of the bolt holder.
10. Put on the bolt holding the bottom of the shaft and tighten up. I didn't use a new lockwasher here, but you may want to.
11. Let the jack down. This will put pressure on the shock.
12. Put the larger doughnut on the top. Follow it with the flanged washer, cupped up. I don't know why the big deal on which way the washer should be cupped, but that is how my old one came off. When I say cupped up, I mean like it would hold water.
13. Now put on the nut and tighten it. I had to use a 6mm wrench to hold the shock shaft since the new nut is a locknut. The nut will bottom out.
14. You're done. You'll probably be hungry now, after dealing with doughnuts and cakes!
The whole job took me about 35 minutes. Easy, and almost no chance of bloodshed. Joe Alexander furnished enough instructions to help me, but I thought some additional details might be useful.
Joe2
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Hello Joe (from the other Joe),
You forgot one thing! How does the car drive now?
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Wow! Thank you Joe #2 as well. That was the perfect play-by-play I needed to get started. Hopefully get to them this weekend.
James
63 230SL
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I tried the car today, and it is noticably more stable at speed with the new shocks on the rear. Now I think I can take it over 120. I was nervous going that fast before, because the car just did not feel like it was tracking right.
Tomorrow we're taking off for Santa Fe in the 113. It's a 300-mile drive, one way, and this will certainly be a test of my mechanical skills. I did join AAA today, with the "plus" membership. That gives me 100 miles of free towing. I also bought some seatbelts to put in. They came from a 1965 Wildcat; right vintage, anyway.
I'll give the group a shout next week on the outcome of this trip. I feel like a young bird that is just leaving the nest for the first time. Now to tell the wifey the plan!
Joe2
1965 Euro 4-spd
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Help! Well, I just went to do shocks... Old one came off easy enough. Problem began when trying to get new bottom section on. It would not go despite ATF and lots of repositioning & banging with mallet, wood, etc.
In fact, I got a little forced on -- and whole bushing came out of shock. [:(!].. regrouped and took a look. Here's the rub: the new hole in bottom bushing is 5/8. The sleeve on bolt holder and old bushing hole both 3/4" And I am afraid the twain shall never meet. Any ideas?
One thought -- could the sleeve I see on the shock mount have been added. It seems connected but I am really stuck here.
PS Old shock is really shot (it is at least 25 years old and is a Monroe from belgium). Anyway, I may have to punt again and put the piece of crud back in.
James
63 230SL
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Hello James,
Your discovery rings a bell. A sleeve is installed on the mount as an adapter to make some non metric aftermarket shocks fit. Take some wd40 and some vice grips and give them a twist they should come off.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Very encouraging Joe. I will give that a try tomorrow. I went ahead and put old shock back on (because I hate seeing the car all twisted and jacked up ... looks like it hurts.) I think I can now get it off in minutes.
Speaking of which -- what is the best way to jack up the car when I do rear shocks? I used the frame near rear jack hole but was a bit worried. You may recall my rust issues. I also put a stand under the axle.
Would jacking from the thrust arm be better? Thanks again.
James
63 230SL
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Hello James,
You can jack the car directly under the differential. A good strong place to set the jack stands is under the trust arm mounting points on the chasis. You then can use the jack to adjust the swing axles up and down for shock installation. Try to keep the jack somewhere under the car as an added safety while on jack stands.
You can move each swing axle up and down after placing the jack under the point where the trust arm attaches to the swing axle.
Be careful not to let the right swing axle bang down when unhooking the rear shock.
The shock limits the downward travel of the swing axle. Allowing the right swing axle to drop downward can damage the differential casting. Lower it gently
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Well, I am back. And the news is not all that good. A few of you have followed my progress off-line but here it is for the whole world..
At last post, I was going to see if there was an added sleeve on my lower shock mount because it seems way to large for the Bilstein bushing. I removed the old shocks again and had a look. It may be a sleeve but it ain't budging. I tried penetrating oil, twisting & pulling with V-grips ... not moving. So back to square one.
Has anyone who has put on rear Bilsteins ever had this kind of problem? Also, my pivot post that the shock slides on is a female end -- and takes a 17mm head bolt. Is this like anyone elses?
Thanks.
James
63 230SL
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Hello James,
I will measure the diameter of one here today so we can determine if you really do have a sleeve on it. Yes it is a 17mm bolt head with a cup washer and a flat washer. will be back soon!
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Just a thought, maybee the metal bushing from the shock is siezed on the mounting bolt and has separated from the rubber bushing on the shock it was fused to. Check your old shock when you take it off to see if the bolt hole has a steel sleeve in it or is just rubber. I have seen shocks that after being on a long time separate like that and the only way to get off the sleeve is with a torch. On my Unimog I had to actually cut the sleeve off with a torch. Just use the cutting torch to slowly cut the bushing away from the mounting stud. It may not appear to be a sleeve on the mounting bolt if it is really siezed up. Again check your shock when you take it off for the metal sleeve, if the hole is just rubber your sleeve is probably siezed on the mounting stud. Also only a Oxy/Acetylene torch will heat it enough to do anything. Propane or Map is somewhat useless in getting metal red hot in this situation.
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Hello James,
I measured the shock mounting shaft at the rear axle and found that it is 16.5 mm. diameter. Measure yours to make sure there is realy bushing on the shaft first. If a bushing is on the shaft try taping it. You may be able to use a pipe wrench to rotate it off?
Keep us up to date.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Thanks Joe. Well that tells me something. My diameter is more like 19mm. And just enough over to keep me from forcing the bushing on.
If it is a sleeve it is sure well attached (perhaps 27 plus years of wear). A few of you have suggested using heat. I am not wild about laying on my back under my 40 year old gas tank with a acetylene torch ablaze -- so I may take it into a shop. (Unless it miraculously loosens up).
One thing I have confirmed. The shocks are shot. They have no resistance. I can just pull the rod in and out... I look forward to the new ones!
James
63 230SL
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Finally have closure on this here thread. To refresh -- in attempt to change rear shocks, the shock mount shafts were too large to fit my new Bilsteins. Joe A. and others concluded there could be an added sleeve on there for aftermarket shocks. If true, they didn't want to budge so I was stuck...
Well, at last I decided to take the car into the shop. Sure enough the sleeves were rusted on. The final solution was to carefully heat them up. Bingo! Off came the sleeves and on went the new shocks -- (together with front shocks, engine mounts, and subframe mounts). Needless to say, I am thrilled!
Thanks to everyone who pitched in.
James
63 230SL
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So James......tell us how it feels on the road now ??
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
'03 CLK Kompressor
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Well, Ben, this could second as my answer to the "what puts a smile on your face?" thread...
The car handles great! The car has always steered pretty well but was sort of scary around curves. Now it holds the road much tighter. More specific to the rear shocks, I used to get a sideways slide over rough roads, now it stays straight and absorbs them much better. I recommend updating suspension parts to anyone who has yet to do it.
James
63 230SL
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quote:
More specific to the rear shocks, I used to get a sideways slide over rough roads
......funny you should mention that. Lately mine has developed a tendency to shimmy quite a bit at the rear, like its nervous. It seems like it was a sudden deterioration though but I dont see anything broken or obviously worn ..........apart from everything that is !!
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
'03 CLK Kompressor
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quote:
Originally posted by J. Huber
Finally have closure on this here thread. To refresh ....
James,
Thank you so much for following up on this. I see so many threads that never have a resolution posted. Thanks! :D
Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420
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Well, sure wish I had paid attention when I read this post the first time.
replaced my rear shocks today, forgot all about the aftermarket shocks and the collar that gets stuck on the mounting post. forced one shock on and then realized what I did. the old shock collar was split so I could use a chisel and small hammer to get it off.
once the collar was off then the new shocks slid right on.
and of course I tried to follow the bilstein instructions which by the way suck, installed the shocks, re read this post and then removed the shocks and installed the rubber donughts properly.
anyway, this is a great forum. now I need to find the front shock instructions
matt
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Hello Matt,
You can put a hose clamp around the rubber boot to hold the shock compressed during installation. When you have the shock in place slowly loosen the clamp and guide the threaded shock top up through the top hole. Be careful not to miss and hit the underside of the fender or you could make a dent! Pre-setting the lower mounting screws at a slight angle also helps.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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I too replaced my shocks recently, for a different reason. My shocks had been on the car since 1978 (about 50,000 miles) - they were stock Bilsteins from the dealer. The lower rubber bushing on the fronts had started to squeak. I tried everything to stop the noise, with no success. I decided to replace the shocks. The old ones were only slightly "softer" when I tested them against the new ones, but the difference in the ride is significant, especially over pot holes, etc. That amazing "cats paws" ride described in the 1965 Road & Track road test is back!
However, instability coming from the rear really warrants a close inspection of the cross strut bushings and the hanger mount. I would think the shocks would have a minimal effect on instability as I understand it - i.e. poor tracking at speed on smooth roads and a feeling of looseness at the rear when turning into and changing directions in corners.
Vince Canepa
1967 250SL
113.043-10-001543
568H Signal Red
116 Caviar MB-Tex
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Hello Vince,
Unhook your shocks at the bottom only and slide the bottoms off so you can test them also. Bad rear shocks make an amazingly unstable ride. If they are bad you will have a dead spot at the tops or no gas pressure left.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Joe - I replaced all four shocks about three weeks ago. When I compared the old ones to the new ones, there wasn't much difference. The difference in resistance could be felt, but it wasn't that great and there were no "dead" spots at the end. As I said, I changed them because the rubber bushing in the "eye" at the lower end of the front shocks was squeaking and no amount of lube would cure it. Since the shocks were old, I changed all four. The difference in the ride quality was way more than I expected after comparing the shocks.
You may recall my posts last summer/fall. I had the same "insecurity" Ben mentions. I had a bad rear wheel bearing, two bent axles (never have figured how that came about) and the hanger mount bush was shot. After those repairs the car tracked perfect, very secure, to over 100 mph.
Vince Canepa
1967 250SL
113.043-10-001543
568H Signal Red
116 Caviar MB-Tex
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Hello Vince,
OK, I doubt that your rears are bad if they are that new. Those Bilsteins last for a long time!
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio