Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Drive train, fuel, suspension, steering & brakes => Topic started by: ja17 on June 26, 2004, 22:03:31
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*first photo updated to show fuel inlet passage to flower pot 11-40-6
The inner workings of the W113 fuel tank are a mystery to most owners. I had an old tank which had been open and dried out for years. I cut it open and took some photos for everyone to see. If you ever need to re-condition your tank or service the drain plug/fuel screen this information should be helpful and probably not available anywhere else.
Here is an illustration of the complex "flower pot assembly" (thanks Dan for the terminology).
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The drain plug/fuel screen in your fuel tank is the first line of defense to protect your injection system from contamination. This drain plug/fuel screen can be removed using a 22mm allen bolt (7/8") will work. I made a tool using a 22mm bolt welded on a pipe (see picture). The unit has a rubber o-ring seal which you may wish to replace with new. New drain plug/fuel screens are available new if yours is damaged. My old dealer (280-SL)parts book show the number for the filter/plug to be #111 470 06 86. The seal is listed as #110 997 01 45. These numbers may have changed. Any dealer should be able to cross ref. these numbers to current ones. Earlier W113 cars may be a little different. I believe the earliest versions of this drain plug/fuel screen may be metal the later units are plastic. In addition the early units may use a different metal seal instead of the rubber o-ring seal. Maybe some others can comment here.
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The next photo shows the tank bottom without the flower pot to show how the fuel manifold interacts with the fuel pick up line. Fuel going to the engine must first flow through the screen and into the round "fuel manifold" where it leaves the fuel tank via the metal line. After traveling through the electric fuel pump, fuel lines, main fuel filter, injection pump, left over fuel is returned to the tank via the smaller metal fuel line and dumped into the "flower pot".
Notice where the fuel return line and the larger (lower) fuel supply line enter the tank. Notice that the metal fuel supply originates at the at a round collector (manifold) in the center bottom of the tank where it picks up fuel after it is drawn through the drain plug/fuel screen.
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If you ever need to recondition your tank and coat it with gas tank sealer you should be very careful to cover the screen so sealer will not clog the round collector (manifold and fuel line.
Also be aware of the tiny vent line which snakes along the top of the tank! This must also be kept clear!
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This tank seems to have a zinc galvenized coating from the factory and the surface is still in decent condition. I am not sure that the earlier tanks were galvanized.
Use extreme caution when working around gasoline! Make sure to have enough empty containers to store the fuel in sealed containers. Have an extinguisher and something to absorb spills on hand. Static electric or things like water heater pilot lights can ignite gas fuems. You may want to do this kind of work in the well-ventilated outdoors. You can pump your tank dry by disconnecting a fuel line in the engine compartment hooking up a hose and use the electric fuel pump to pump the fuel into containers.
Just be careful or have a professional deal with fuel tanks.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Joe,
I was wondering if you can just clean out the filter in the tank instead of replacing it. Do you think that's generally sufficient?
Douglas Kim
New York, NY
280 SL #016220
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Hello Doug,
Yes cleaning the screen is usually sufficient. Replacememnt is needed only when the screen is damaged. These screens only catch the larger particles of dirt.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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This is an excellent post! I always wondered how that little screen worked...
My question is this. When getting my tank sealed, is getting the pipes clogged really something to worry about like you said? And since my tank has already moved to the shop, how can I undo this mistake if it so happens?
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Hello Sphe,
The sealer used in re-coating the tank may completely block off or restrict the metal supply line in the tank. You must close of the screen and it's openings with something like shrink wrap. Then install the shrink wraped screen in the tank before the sealer is poured in. This will prevent the sealer from entering the round collector and plugging the supply tube.
If your tank has already been coated you must make sure the metal fuel supply tube is clear. Use a wire or a long brush. A rifle cleaning kit has nice long brushes, various diameters for gun barrels and works nicely. blow compressed air through the supply tube when finished. Happy motoring!
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Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Joe,
My understanding was that the return line dumps fuel in the 'flower pot' (as described by the good doctor) ;) .
On my 230sl the return line was longer and with bends and had to be desoldered and removed to clear it out.
Have you got a picture of the flower pot?
naj
65 230SL
68 280SL
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so - now that you have the tank "open" - where do the two vent lines go inside of the tank? I have a 1970 US version 280SL with the evaporator tank inside the trunk.... I've always wondered where the two lines on either side of the filler neck go inside of the tank... And the natural follow-up question - which one is vapor and which one is fuel return.... any "enlightenment" is appreciated....
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Another excellent "tour", Joe!
Could you take a close up photo of the filter and show how it forces fuel to go through the filter (said otherwise, how the base fits into the tank) and releases fuel out of the base? Knowing this makes it easier to understand how the plastic-wrapped filter element protects the fuel passages during tank resealing.
Regarding your comment on older fuel tank filters, I ordered one for my 230SL from Tom Hanson a couple years ago. It's base was metal and the filter was plastic. I don't recall if it came with a rubber gasket, but I did not order one and it has not leaked.
Finally, regarding the 230SL tank question, I recall looking inside mine and seeing more tubing that is shown here on Joe's 280SL tank. They are different and purchasing a new 230SL tank will cost significantly more.
Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420
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Hello Rod and Naj,
Sometimes it takes a few of us to solve all the mysteries. After reading your post I went on a quest for the "flower pot" tank. After rummaging through my scrap heap I turned one up (see photo).
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The principal is the same as the previous tank but more complexity. The return line is connected with a clamped rubber fuel hose to the "flower pot"! Return fuel is delivered in a small resivour "flower pot" right next to the fuel pick up.
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This makes reconditioning even more difficult. Sealer will tend to collect in the "flower pot" and close off the return line. During and after the sealing process both lines will need to be kept from becoming clogged. Compressed air blown through the return line shortly after sealing will help. A flexible wire or cable (speedometer cable core)will be needed to clear any sealer or obstructions in the cuved tube. It looks like the tank should be set upside down after sealing so too much sealer is not collected in the "flower pot".
The same round collector as seen in the previous post is nested in the center of the "flower pot" with the fuel screen. these tanks are vertually the same except the "flower pot" and extra plumbing has been added.
Here is a photo showing the different diameters of the fuel feed and fuel return line.
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If the rubber fuel hose deteriorates in the tank, I suspect all kind of strange things can happen.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Hello again,
The latest research provides some additional information. A 1970 vintage tank yielded an internal "flower pot" assembly with all metal lines. The rubber line as seen in the inside of the earlier tank has changed to all metal internal lines.
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Bhap, I finally got some information for you on the vent line. This photo shows the line which runs from the filler and along the top of the gas tank. This line goes to the plastic expansion tank in some of the models and to the charcoal canister in others. The expansion tank, or charcoal tank has a return line back to the filler neck. A third vent line has an external funnel shaped external vent on some models and a return line to the engine on others. I am sure there are different variations of the vent system on earlier W113 cars.
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Another interesting feature on this injected sedan tank, is that although the filler neck is in a different position on this sedan tank than a W113, there is a flat area where the W113 filler neck would be. From this I presume that the factory uses the same parts to make a sedan tank as a W113 tank. Where the filler neck is installed makes it a sedan or W113 gas tank!
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Note the term '' flower pot '' was coined by the Benz Dr. and he will permit this group to use it for now ~)
Now that you can all see what it looks like let me tell you how it works. Right where the return line ends there's a small hole right at the bottom where fuel enters the flower pot when the tank gets low. The high volume of fuel coming out of the return line causes a vortex to form inside of the flower pot and a low pressure area right at the end of the pipe. This low pressure area is right at the hole in the flower pot and actually pulls fuel in from the main tank area.
The flower pot acts like a dampener so that you don't suck in a lot of air going around corners. Since all the returned full is dumped into the flower pot it never goes dry - there's far more in there than the engine needs.
This is why it's so important to have an unrestricted return line. Not only does the high volume of fuel prevent vapour lock inside the injection pump but it also acts like a heat exchanger by lowering the internal temps of the IP.
The flower pot is both simple and very effective - just short of brillant.
Daniel G Caron
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My father and I have decided to undertank sealing our own tank... Now, it has been recommended in this post to close off the fuel lines, as they can get clogged with the sealer... but shouldnt they get sealed as well because they could be rusted on the inside too?
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Sphe,
You'll be sealing the "outside" of these internal lines. Does it matter which side, in or out, you seal? What are the thoughts of others in the Group?
Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420
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Joe I have enjoyed this topic. It's given us a look at something we never see but now have a better understanding of how it works. Thanks!
1969 280sl 5 spd 1999 ML320 Gainesville,Fl.
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I found that the small screen going into the electric fuel pump can be a hidden source of problems. Since the fuel hose going to the pump is pretty much gravity feed any restrictions will really impeed flow.
Once the fuel level goes below the top of the flower pot there's less weight on the line and the lower the fuel level the worse the car runs if something is plugged. A quick test is to take the hose off at the pump and let some fuel drain out. If everything is working properly the whole tank will drain out. If the small hole in the flower pot is plugged then the flow will stop even though there's still fuel in the tank. ( fuel level must be below top of flower pot for this test ) Removal of sending unit is a must so you can see inside of tank. A small wire can be bent and then used to poke into the hole if it's plugged ( this is actually quite rare to plug up but it does happen )
NOTE:
NEVER, EVER, use a trouble light to look inside of a gas tank. If the bulb is loose and you get a spark.....
Use a well sealed flash light
( torch ) only and replace the sending unit as soon as possible after looking inside of tank.
Be smart and safe not burned up or worse.....
Daniel G Caron
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Just a note:
The tanks without a flower pot are for non fuel injected engines. Cars with fuel injection MUST have a tank with this type of fuel dampener or running problems below 1/4 fuel level are very possible. Injection pumps need a constant supply of fuel without any air or vapour bubbles to work properly.
One picture shows the area beside the return line where the hole for fuel entry is located.
Daniel G Caron
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NB for those that are interested, the good doctor's (Dan Caron's) observations are fresh, and direct from his work on MY CAR! This is definitely from "my hands are dirty and covered with gasoline" experience within the past few days!
Michael Salemi
1969 280SL
Signal Red w/Black Leather
Restored
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Yes I know I am sealing the outside of the internal lines, but my point is that the inside of those internal lines could be rusty too... correct? or should i prevent any sealer whatsoever from getting inside the lines?
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Thanks Hauser,
I am glad these topics are helpful. I always learn something myself from you guys!
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Hello Sphe,
Just use a good brush and scrub the lines inside when finished. Blow with compressed air and make sure all lines are open with a wire. The fuel screen and fuel filter can handle what little rust makes it after the cleaning.
Plan on unhooking the main front to rear fuel lines and blow compressed air through them before putting everything back together.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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So I DO let the sealer get in the lines? is that the verdict?
Eugene
1965 230SL, Max Speed: Zero
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Hello,
I would avoid this if possible, the sealer would restrict the internal diameter by decreasing or closing off the lines. However, I am afraid there may be nothing you can do to prevent sealer from entering the "flower pot" and entering in the fuel return line. Just plan on clearing the holes afterward and avoid as much fuel line sealing as possible.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Joe,
I wanted to remove the fuel drain plug in my 66 sl to clean the scren and to check for debris in the flower pot.
I tried to use a 7/8 bolt and a vise grip to remove the plug, but that sucker is either stuck or I need a better tool. (the vise grip would slide)
should the drain plug require considerable force to remove?
I am sure that the plug has not been removed ever.
any suggestions?
thanks in advance
matt
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I guess I have to give up another one of my secrets.
The drain plug can be removed using a spark plug socket with a hex head on the drive end. This socket should have a rubber insert used to hold a spark plug which you need to remove.
Push the hex end of the socket into the recess of the drain plug. Fit a long extension through the socket into the square drive from the bottom and remove like a regular drain plug.
CAUTION!!!!!!!! NEVER use a trouble light near gasoline. A loose bulb could start a fire with you covered in gas.
It happens far more often than you might think. Don't be stupid.......
Dan Caron's
SL Barn
benzbarn@ebtech.net
slbarn.mbz.org
1 877 661 6061
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<<spark plug socket with a hex head>>
That's a Keeper .............1/2 drive one would be best, but even 3/8 will do.
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Hello Dan and Matt,
Good idea Dan! We'll definately keep that idea on tap.
Matt, yes the 1/2" version would work well with a nice long breaker bar.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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For reference, my early 250SL has the flower pot with the metal lines. I've got the tank out and examined the internals with a mirror. The entire interior of the tank is clean and shiny - no rust and the filter screen is clear. I really expected a little rust after all these years.
Vince Canepa
1967 250SL
113.043-10-001543
568H Signal Red
116 Caviar MB-Tex
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Joe, Dan,
well finally got the fuel tank drain plug out. I ended up using socket idea to get the plug out. could not find a spark plug socket that would allow me to insert an extension into is to I used my metal grinder and cut the top of the socket off. worked great.
now for the problem, the fuel that drained out of the tank was green!! and to make things worse the tank has a lot of surface rust inside. I need to find some one to repair the tank cause I cannot afford to buy a new one.
I believe the rust is from an aged sender gasket that allowed the tank to breath with the external environment. When changed there was fuel on the top of the tank.
thanks for all the help
I would appreciate any suggestions to repair the tank
Matt
Austin Texas
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Hello Matt,
Some radiator shops will boil out the tanks. It can be cleaned with acid and recoated. The Eastwood Co. sells kits if you wish to attempt it yourself. Most will discourage restoration of these tanks since the internal "flower pot" (thanks Dan) makes the porcedure difficult. The sealer will plug the fuel drain holes in the flower pot, the fuel tubes and their manifold if you are not careful. The fuel manifold is the circular sheet metal housing directly around the base of the drain plug screen on the inside of the flower pot. All fuel enters the drain plug screen then the moves to the fuel manifold and exits out the internal fuel tube before leaving the tank. Return fuel from the engine enters the tank and travels down the second fuel tube before entering the "flower pot" (thanks Dan). A drain hole in the flower pot allows fuel from the tank to enter into the flower pot. This must also be kept clear.
I suggest you study this string carefully before attempting this. The lower manifold and the fuel tubes must be kept open. I use a old speedometer cable core and a rifle cleaning kit with brushes to clear the tubes. Streching a latex gloove finger over the drain plug screen before installing it during the coating process should keep the fuel manifold clear. Allow the tank to rest so sealer does not settle in the flower pot while the coating is drying. Clear all tubes and imposrtant openings before installation.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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joe,
ha ha ha ha, I just returned a tank kit to eastwood because of this thread!!!! nuts.
before i go much further, what should I use to rinse the tank out with? maybe there is less rust than thought and what I see if sediment on the bottom of the tank?
matt
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Hello Matt,
After removing the fuel gauge sender, and you have removed all traces of fuel, you can clean the rust and deposites out of the tank with a power washer or hose. I drop an air line from my compressor into it after flushing the water out i to dry it inside. Acid treat and coat with sealer. Having it boiled out at a radiator shop is best and safest.
Please be sure your gas tank is drained completely and dry before cleaning it. Any contaminated fuel must be disposed of properly to protect the environment and prevent safety hazards. Gas fumes are extremely dangerous.
Keep us up to date. We need a fuel tank success story here!
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Matt .... One other idea that I have heard reported and should work is to boil the tank out with some caustic soda. Fill it with water and then heat it to a roiling boil on your propane grill. It may sound dangerous but the tank is filled with water and cleaner.
Jim Villers
190SL, 230SL 5-Speed, 190E 2.3-16 Kompressor
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Hello,
Please be sure your gas tank is drained completely and dry before cleaning it. Any contaminated fuel must be disposed of properly to protect the environment and prevent safety hazards.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Hi Joe,
Very useful informations. Thank you very much.
This is what came out of the tank during the restoration work of our Pagoda. No wonder we had problems with jerky running due to insufficient gas supply. It has now been totally cleaned out and the engine runs like a sewing machine :)
/Finn
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This service might be useful for anyone contemplating fuel tank repairs.
http://www.gastankrenu.com/welcome.htm
Tom
Early 1967 250SL
Euro version
Los Angeles
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As someone who does a lot of environmental awareness training, it kills me to see that photo of a wet fuel tank over a floor drain. PLEASE, PLEASE, guys, let's be environmentally responsible here. Many times floor drains or gutters run to local waterways. A very small amount of petroleum can pollute thousands of gallons of groundwater.
When we change the oil or other fluids, use mineral spirits to clean things, or use some of the caustic chemicals described here, we should capture as much of it as possible, label the containers as containing used product and dispose of it properly. My city has a hazardous waste disposal location as part of the Solid Waste Department. I collected all of the used fluids from my recent overhaul project, and also used the opportunity to get rid of some old house paint. Check with your local government. Most would rather have the stuff contained than worry about regulatory consequences.
Our cars are rough on the air just by the nature of their vintage technology. We owe it to ourselves and future genterations to minimize our impact in other ways.
Thanks.
Ray
'68 280SL 4-spd Coupe
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Hello,
Use extreme caution when dealing with gasoline. The fumes are extremely flammable. Just having exposed gasoline near an ignition source can be disastrous.
It is best to deal with it in the well ventilated outdoors. Be sure to have enough containers to cap and seal the drained fuel. Have a fire extinguisher near by. Have a method to plug or cap fuel lines and hoses.
Avoid ignition sources like trouble lights, static electric, pilot lights etc.
If you have old dry rotted fuel lines, chances are they may begin to leak or rupture when they are disturbed. Be prepared to deal with this.
Remember an empty fume filled fuel tank can also be dangerous. Work safely.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Joe,
eastwood re-sent me a tank sealer kit today, here is a follow up question. should I prevent the tank cleaning materials from entering the fuel lines in the tank?
I know I want to prevent the sealer from getting into the fuel lines and clogging them, however I probbly do not want to "clean" them with the chemicals either.
note: I talked to gernold at sl tech. he must just replace tanks because he did not have any recommendations on a tank restorer. he did mention tank reneu that was brought up in this list however he has no experience with them
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Hello matt,
Before adding sealer cover the drain plug screen with something like the finger of a latex glove. Then re-install it. This will prevent most sealer from entering the fuel maifold in the bottom of the tank or clogging the fuel screen. Seal the tank as per instructions and allow the tank to dry standing on its side. If you allow the tank to rest with the bottom down you may allow sealer to settle in the bottom and clog the "flower pot" or a fue line. After coating the tank remove the fuel screen and blow air through both fuel lines. It is also a good idea to run a wire or bottle brush into the lines and then blow them clear. Small brushes and rods from a rifle cleaning kit work well. An old speedometer cable core or steel cable will also work. The thing you will not be able to access is the intake hole in the bottom of the "flower pot". This is why it is important to let the tank sealer dry with the tank resting on its side. This is why most tank restoration attemps fail. If you understand how the tank works you should succeed. Ask for more information if needed. Good luck! Remember safety when dealing with fuel and fumes!
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Matt,
Also be aware of the tiny vent line which snakes along the top of the gas tank and originates in the filler neck. Blow this line clear during the sealing process. This allows the tank to "breath" during fill-ups. If clogged you will have trouble adding fuel during fill-ups.
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Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Guys. At what point would an owner want to check the drain plug/ fuel screen? In other words, is this a preventative maintenance thing? Or only when there is a fuel delivery prob? And I am assuming this is done near empty with a big old bucket underneath? Just curious.
James
63 230SL
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Hey, James,
I think its worth a look if its not been done whilst in your possession.
Here's what I did:
Run the tank down as low as possible - long after the red light's come on.
Have container ready. Disconnect feed line to engine from the electric fuel pump and connect another hose to allow draining into container. Switch on ign to operate pump and let drain completely.
Clean the filter in the fuel pump inlet while you're down here.
Usual warnings apply when playing with fuel!!
I was lucky to have a rebuilt pump when I did this job. I used it to pump the fuel back thru the return pipe into the flower pot. about 4 litres was enough to get me to the nearest gas station. [:p]
naj
65 230SL
68 280SL
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Thanks Naj. Well, I'd have to say, it probably has been done during my ownership -- just not by me. I had the tank out when it busted a seam -- they sent it to the radiator guy who welded it and gave it the once over. New plumbing, gasket for sending unit, etc. I'd bet the screen was tended to then. 4 years back.
James
63 230SL
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Joe,
can i remove the fuel tank without placing the car on a lift?
It appears that the fuel neck will clear the hole in the rear with out any real problems.
also, I have removed the cover for the filler neck and noticed that the vent lines were junk. everyone should check their vent ilnes !!
between the vent lines and the dried up sender gasket I am not suprised that the tank has corrosion.
thx
matt
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quote:
Originally posted by merrill
Can i remove the fuel tank without placing the car on a lift?
I have done it on my 230SL. I believe I did use two standard jack stands to keep the rear up.
Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420
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Rodd, Joe,
I was able to get the tank out of my 66. I had to remove the 3 rubber mounts for the exhaust as the passenger front corner of the tank was blocked by the exhaust system.
also, some ding dong used a large washer on the front mount of the tank so it was restricted by the center axle spring. needless to say, it was not too hard, just supported the tank with a floor jack with a small 2x4 buffer, unbolted it and then let it down. I sure hope it goes back in as easy.
any way, flushed the tank out with water, and filtered it and found mud. I could not even see the filter thru the red mud. after two flushes the water was clear.
now, on to a question, I have been thinking about the sealing process for the tank. I am probably going to try to cap the flower pot with a cover from a small ice cream container or something to keep the sealer from going into the pot.
I also thought of getting some small catheters from a medical supply store to insert into the tubes then inflate inside the very end of the tubes to keep the sealer out. Still have to let the tank seal with the flower pot upside down to keep the sealer out - just in case.
now all i need is a rear axle and brake tour and I will have more projects than I want.
I will post my results once the sealing is complete.
matt
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One more note should be added here somewhere - - -
No tour of our fuel tank woes is complete until we have all seen the worst - - - This jpg. shows it! My tank had about two gallons of PUTRID five-year-old gas in it. Along with enough rusty sediment and gummy failed sealer residue to fill a coffee cup.
The previously mentioned "gastankrenu.com" did the work on mine. Very reasonably priced and an excellent job.
Regards. Larry in CA
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Joe,
one more question, after reviewing the photos of the flower pot, how does the fuel get into it?
are there openings at the base that allow fuel in?
otherwise the fuel must flow over the top of the pot?
thanks
matt
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Hello Matt,
Yes there is an opening at the bottom of the flower pot, just under the fuel return line. It allows the fuel to flow into the flower pot.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Joe & everyone,
well finished my fuel tank seal project. looks to be a success, for anyone that my try to seal their tank in the future here is a recap of my experience.
1. study the fuel tank tour thread, understand that the fuel inlet into the flower pot is below the return line.
2. read and re read the instructions on the seal kit. I used the tank seal kit from the eastwood company. I had to call them to verify the instructions. The east wood kit calls for you to buy an additional 2 quarts of acetone ( buy two one quart cans) and muriatic acid. The acid is used during the prep process, the dilution is 20:1 water to acid mix. 1/2 gallon.
3. pull and cover the fuel tank screen, I used a finger from a latex glove and then some electrical tape wrapped around to seal it well.
4. make a cover for the sender unit opening, I used a plastic ice cream top, cut and drilled using the gasket from the sender unit as a template.
5. have covers for the fuel return and feed line. I had vacuum covers from a mighty vac kit that fit well.
6. the main catch to sealing the tank is to follow the instructions, and when sealing the tank to not clog any of the fuel lines.
have heavy plastic gloves and a face protection. the chemicals used are nasty, if you have a respirator use it.
When it came time to apply the sealer, with the help of the mrs I coated the sides of the tank, then did the bottom of the tank.
to keep the sealer out of the fuel inlet in the flower pot, I removed the cover for the sender unit so I could see the bottom of the tank , then with the tank standing up, we slowly lowered the tank bottom side down and I watched the sealer as it flowed toward to flower pot, once it was approaching the inlet, we raised the tank just a little and allowed the sealer to just touch the bottom of the flower pot. we did the 2x, then angled the tank around to get the sealer on the other side of the flower pot to cover the rest of the bottom of the tank.
re-install the home make sending unit cover, turn the tank over and seal the top of the tank.
per the instructions after waiting 8 - 10 minutes, drain off the excess sealant.
Use compressed air to verify the fuel feed and return lines are clear, also check the vent lines. I used an extra guitar string to verify the vent lines were clear. Using the process above I was not too worried about the fuel inlet and return lines being clogged as I never got sealant in the flower pot.
once the sealant has cured I will verify the flower pot fuel inlet is clear. probably will use some clear poly line placed into the flower pot and allow some water flow thru the tube to the inlet hole and verify by viewing the fluid flowing out of the flower pot.
the whole process took about 2 hours, and is an inexpenisve route to attempting a do it your self tank sealing. the eastwood kit was about $50, muriatice acid and 2 qts of acetone was about $10.
This is a lot less than buying a new tank from mb or a repro from k&K - as long as it works.
anyway, hope this info helps anyone that may be thinking of sealing their own tank.
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Hello Matt,
Congratulations and let us know when you have it on the road!
good idea on the guitar string!
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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I have just read this whole thread and I think that I have found the solution for my problem: After reinstalling the tank into my freshly restored car, the fuel pump does not supply enough fuel.
We have inserted the otulet fuel tube from the pump into a glass canister and we can see that right after the pump starts, the flow is strong. In a couple of moments the current becomes weaker and probably not enough to satisfy the engine.
According to what I've just read I presume that the inlet hole in the shell reservoir (or as you call it the "flower pot") is clogged (there is about 20 liters of fuel in the tak now, probably below the reservoir's edge).
Is it likely that the hole got clogged when the tank was out of the car? Before there was no such problem. The only thing we did with the tank was that it had beed cleaned with pressure water and eventually dried on the sun.
My second question is: How come that the fuel current from the pump is always strong for a second or two after the pump is started? Is the opening in the shell container just partially clogged (and thus when the pump is off the levels can ballance)? Can it be widened with a wire or file driven through the sender unit?
Thanks for your ideas and thanks for this whole helpful thread!
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Muf,
I would start with the filter screen and make sure its not clogged up.
While its off, you can insert a wire into the outlet pipe from the plug opening and clear it out. You can clear out the return line as well while you are there. I found an old outer heater cable very handy for this job.
naj
68 280SL
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Hello Muf,
Be sure to check the small fuel screen in the intake fitting of the electric fuel pump. It can become clogged very easily. Earliest versions of the 230SLs did not have it however.
Fuel delivery problems frequently show the symptoms you have described. At rest fuel is allowed to seep past any restrictions after a period of time. So when the electric fuel pump is started the fuel flow may be strong for a few minutes. My first suspect would be the fuel screen in the electric fuel pump. Next check the intake passages in the gas tank "flower pot".
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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well, so close yet so far,
Finall got to the point of putting fuel in the tank and try to start the car.
finished all the other projects, put 5 gallons of fuel in the tank and not one drop of fuel came out of the tank. (via clear fuel filter before fuel pump)
drained the gas, pulled the tank, again, and tested the flow.
filled the tank with water, not over the top of the flower pot and the water flowed out the fuel feed outlet slowly.
drained the water, filled only the flower pot and the water flowed very strong.
SOB. I guess the fuel inlet into the flower pot has a clog.
took the tank to the shop today, to have it boiled, cut open and check the inlet.
guess it pays to check this before installing the tank
matt
Matt
66 230 sl - "white"
78 300 D - Blue
98 C230
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Finally, picked up the tank from the radiator shop, they installed an access plug to the left of the inlet - outlet tubes so if there is ever another problem one can get a tool inside the tank.
painted the tank,installed it, put 5 gallons in it, ran the pump, and STILL NO FUEL came out!!! let the pump run for a short time, still no fuel. drained the tank, checked the fuel screen, it was ok, reinstalled the screen, put some fuel into the flower pot and no fuel came out.
insterted a clear poly line into the large fuel tank outlet tube, applied a vacuum and some fuel came out, hmm.
hooked everything back up again, still no fuel, pulled the suction pipe off the pump, could not really feel a vacuum. Now realy frustrated.
hooked everything back up again, and wondered, maybe the sustem needs to be bled. So, went to the engine compartment, disconnected the fuel return line and applied vacuum till fuel came out. checked my fuel filter back at the tank, and finally fuel was present.
then, hooked the return line back up, turned on the key to position one and I could see the fuel being sucked thru the clear fuel filter I installed near the tank.
Bottom, Line, when the sysem has been opened, first bleed the system up in the engine compartment to get the air out and fuel into the pump and system.
matt
Matt
66 230 sl - "white"
78 300 D - Blue
98 C230
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Hello Matt,
The electric fuel pump is basically gravity feed. It will not pull much vacuum at all. The electric fuel should be mounted correctly near the lowest level of the fuel tank. Make sure the pump mountings and brackets are correct so that the fuel pump is at the correct level so fuel will flow easily to it's intake. Once the fuel is present in the electric fuel pump it should prime up fine if the system is ok.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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When I filled my tank full for the winter I smelled fuel. Looking under the car I noticed a leak from the top front of the tank. When I took the senser out last year I did not see any corrosion in the tank; put in a new seal at the time. Before pulling the tank are there any fittings at the top that may be leaking? Could the tank rust where it might be touching the tunk floor? After driving the car to lower the fuel just some the leak is gone.
Bruce; 268Blaugrun(green) 1970 280SL; IL
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Bruce,
I am not sure, but on the 230 there are 2 rubber lines under the cover for the fuel filler neck. those can get old and leak.
also if you have the fuel tank vent system mounted on the inside of the passenger fender make sure the rubber hoses for it are not leaking as well.
on my sl, I actually had fuel on the top of the tank where the fuel sender is installed, replaced the cork gasket and no leak.
matt
Matt
66 230 sl - "white"
78 300 D - Blue
98 C230
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How high is the "flower pot"? I mean how much fuel must be in the tank so that it can go over in the pot?
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If you pull the fuel sender out (accessible from inside the trunk) you can look inside the tank and see the flower pot. It's probably 4-5 inches high, so I'd estimate that the tank would need to be at least 1/2 to 2/3 full to overflow the flower pot from the top.
quote:
Originally posted by Muf
How high is the "flower pot"? I mean how much fuel must be in the tank so that it can go over in the pot?
- Mike Hughes -ô¿ô-
1966 230SL Auto P/S
Havanna Brown (408)
Light Beige (181)
Cream M-B Tex (121)
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Muf,
the fuel enters the pot at the bottom not over the top.
see the photo fuel tank with fp ill..JPG
matt
Matt
Austin Tx
66 230 sl - "white"
78 300 D - Blue
98 C230
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Matt,
I know the fuel is supposed to enter from below but I am afraid it does not. When the tank is less than about 1/2, the car stops entirely. I guess the dirt clogged the entrance hole next to the return tube. :-( Is there a way to clean the hole apart from brutally opening the tank?
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Hello Muf,
The fuel tank can be drained, remove the fuel sender unit in the trunk, and used a long air nozzle and compessed air to clear the intake to the "flower pot". You can also work a wire in from the fuel sender opening to help unplug the intake port.
Matt, fuel will fill the flower pot once the level in the tank is above the wall of the flower pot. However if the intake port is plugged the engine will starve for fuel once the level of the fuel in the tank is below the wall of the flower pot.
Exteme caution must always be taken when dealing with gasoline. Sparks, trouble lights, static electric etc. will ignite fuel or fuems. Be careful! Store all drained fuel in good sealed containers, work outdoors in good ventilation if possible, and have an extinguisher close by.
The theory behind the flower pot design is that it keeps plenty of fuel on hand for the engine even when the tank is nearly empty or even under sever cornering conditions. Dan Caron also has a good theory that the swirling flow of the fuel in the flower pot creates a venturi effect which also cools the fuel.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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As I mentioned earlier, pull the sending unit. This is accessible from inside the trunk. Just gently pry up the round plastic plug, remove the square wiring conector, and remove the five nuts and washers. "Gently" pry with a small angled tool around the circumfrence of the sender until it loosens from the gasket and pull straight up and out. Peering inside with a flashlight, you will be able to see the flower pot, and the fuel feed (large)and fuel return (smaller)lines. You can also check around for signs of rust. A small adjustable mirror is very useful for this. Just don't loose any tools inside the tank as they will be the devil to fish out!
The intake to the flower pot is below the return line. I was able to bend a length of coat hanger and insert it into the intake. If you can get about two inches of wire into the intake you will very likely clear the blockage. Be sure to allow a bit of "curve" when you bend the wire to follow the curve of the flower pot.
If the inlet was blocked, chances are your in tank fuel filter is pretty clogged, too. Jack up the rear of the car and drain the tank by undoing the hose from the tank at the fuel pump and let it empty into several gasoline cans that you have standing by. Then unscrew the drain plug. You will need a 22mm bolt head and some way of turning it to undo the drain plug. (Hint: a kingpin trunnion bolt has a 22mm head. The bonus is it has a castellated nut that can be prevented from turning if you substitute a hardened steel pin in place of a cotter pin. I found a finishing nail punch that fit the cotter pin hole and worked a treat! Do not turn the bolt with the punch - it will break off! Use a box wrench on the nut itself to turn the bolt.) You will also need an oil drain pan to catch the remaining fuel as it drains out. There will probably be some debris in the pan when you are all done as well. Once out, hold the in-tank fliter/drain plug up to the light. If you can't see light through it, gently blow it clean with compressed air until you can see light through the plastic screen.
Now that you have drained your tank till it is almost empty and removed, cleaned, and replaced the in-tank filter/drain plug, you can check to see if your inlet is unplugged by peering into the inside of the flower pot. Using a funnel, fill the flower pot to the brim with gasoline. If it empties out into the tank, you have unblocked your intake. Add maybe one gallon of gas and you can also check your fuel pump and return line by turning on the ignition and peering into the flower pot. You should see fuel swirling around clockwise inside the main chamber of the flower pot and the level of fuel inside the flower pot should rise somewhat. You may also hear some gurgling as the pump purges any air from the fuel feed and return lines. Keep running the pump until you have a strong quiet flow.
Reassemble everything and it should start right up. You are now an expert on 113 fuel tanks!
quote:
Originally posted by Muf
Matt,
I know the fuel is supposed to enter from below but I am afraid it does not. When the tank is less than about 1/2, the car stops entirely. I guess the dirt clogged the entrance hole next to the return tube. :-( Is there a way to clean the hole apart from brutally opening the tank?
- Mike Hughes -ô¿ô-
1966 230SL Auto P/S
Havanna Brown (408)
Light Beige (181)
Cream M-B Tex (121)
-
Hello Mike,
Nice step by step description! Denatured alcohal works best on cleaning varnish of the drain screen.
The carbureted Mercedes cars of the era had no flower pot in the tanks. The fuel demands of on a carbureted engine were much less.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
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Mike, Joe, Muf,
the lower flower pot inlet in the tank on my 66 230 sl was plugged.
I took the tank to a repair shop and they installed a screw in plug that I could remove and clean out the lower flower pot inlet.
the plug is located at the correct position so when removed one looks right at the lower flower pot inlet.
matt
Matt
Austin Tx
66 230 sl - "white"
78 300 D - Blue
98 C230