Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Drive train, fuel, suspension, steering & brakes => Topic started by: rocketman1 on November 02, 2011, 03:49:35
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Good Evening. Hey I pulled up the ZF web site for our Pagoda's. According to the factory (ZF Germany)
Reports: 1963-1971
Platform: MB W113
2.3L M127
2.5L M129
2.8L M130
All had the option for: 4-speed Auto
4-speed manual
5-speed manual (sorry BenzDr.)
Is there anybody out there with a 1963/1964/1965 factory installed ZF-5 ?
Stuff for the archives
Thanks
David Lewandos
Corpus Christi,Texas
AKA: rocketman1
1964 230 SL W/ZF-5 268H Dark Green
PS: still waiting for my data card from MB
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I don't think that can be right. There are no records of '63-'65 5-speed cars in our database. I'm pretty sure your data card will indicate the car was originally a 4-speed.
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Hi Dave,
According to Engelen with VIN 16411 on May 6, 1966 a 5-speed manual gearbox became available (SA 55540). Of course, that does not provide proof that one was actually ordered but it should not be in a 1964 230SL
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Hi Guys
I'm quoting from the new Brian Long book -
"As it happens, the five-speed transmission was announced in November 1965, but there was no price listed against it until March of the following year."
I can only presume that Brian has it researched as the rest of the detail in the book seems very definate. That probably further strengthens what has already been stated.
Richard
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There is a 1965 230SL in our Car Registry that lists a 5 Speed ZF but does not say if it is original or a later add on.
Richard M, NYC
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Thanks Richard, missed that one. Benz Dr's is another possible pre-'66 w. ZF but I don't know the year, or whether it's the original trans.
I was under the impression that there had been a transmission tunnel modification in 1966 to fit the ZF, so I will be pleased if that's not the case and it the ZF can be easily retrofitted to pre-'66 230sl.
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My car was built around Sept 1966 so it would be an early install. Since it was also exported to Italy where many of them were delivered, I believe it's original.
I can't see why there would be any need to modify the tunnel because the auto trans is larger that the 5 speed. I would say that the length would be similar. A ZF 5 speed really isn't that big.
I bought my car in Dec 1993 when not that many people were collecting these cars and even fewer knew that 5 speeds were even made. There's little reason for me to suspect anything non original because I've had it all apart several times and there are no modified parts. Nothing has been welded, cut or changed. It's the real deal.
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Same with mine--no mods. I think Dan's and mine were built not that far apart although mine was registered as a 1967 and like Dan's was originally sold to someone in Italy-in my case someone in Rovigo--I still have all the original paperwork including the Italian libretto and Foglio Complementare used to register it in 1967. I'm the second owner--the first was an Italian physician and I have had it since 1976 so I know it is original.
George Desiderio
1967 230SL w/ZF 5 Speed
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Thanks Guys, very good info. I just sent for my "data card" from the MB Classic Center in Stuttgart and sent the fee for the new "Zertifikat"
Can't wait, that would be insane if it was built with a ZF-5.
Best Wish's
David B. Lewandos
Corpus Christi, Texas
AKA:rocketman1
PS: stupid question, do the "American shipped Pagoda cars" 1963-1971 have solid aluminum hoods/trunck lids/driver and passenger doors like the Euro models??
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There is no stupid question, at least not on this forum. :)
Yes, the aluminum body components are the same on US cars. Don't forget the convertible top storage cover.
There is a MB Classic Center in Irvine CA, USA also. Just FYI.
Please tell me about what the "Zertifikat" is.
Thank you.
Mark
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David,
Its the MB Centre in Irvine CA that usually provides the Zertifikats for free and does so within hours if not a couple of days to you via email with a scanned copy of the original certificate.
Dont hold your breath on the 5 speed for your '64. 66 appears to be the year they became available. So many US cars have been modified away from the data card with the ZF in the USA that it is fairly critical to get that data card to see if its original or just another modified one.
I used to think it was pretty cool that more than 900 of the 882 ZF 5 speeds had survived in the US alone :D :D :D
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Garry,
I know this string is about the 5-speeds, but Rocketman1 mentioned both the data card and the "Zertifikat".
So, I'm under the impression they are separate items.
He said he paid the fee for the "Zertifikat".
I would love to know what that is.
Mark
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Garry,
I know this string is about the 5-speeds, but Rocketman1 mentioned both the data card and the "Zertifikat".
So, I'm under the impression they are separate items.
He said he paid the fee for the "Zertifikat".
I would love to know what that is.
Mark
Me too! I missed out when MB was selling the "Birth Certificates" for around $100US. I have contacted Irvine recently and they said the offer is still not available :(
John
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I missed out when MB was selling the "Birth Certificates" for around $100US. I have contacted Irvine recently and they said the offer is still not available
Deers ... Dears,
These "Zertifikate" were a while quite popular in Germany but it has been reported that the Classic Center has discontinued to sell them - due to limited demand.
Why?
Because it is only a nice looking kind of "certificate" on a fancy type of paper for your living room wall (like a painting) but doesn't provide you with any more info than is on the datacard. :o
Go get the data card for your car and "leave out" that stupid certificate 8);
the first one is for free, the second (too) expensive and useless.
IMHO ;)
Achim
(only datacards)
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I used to think it was pretty cool that more than 900 of the 882 ZF 5 speeds had survived in the US alone Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
Personally, I cannot understand where that number "900" derives from. :o
I also only know about the 882 ZF 5-speeds that were built in total - for the worldwide supply (based on Michael Egan's article in the MercedesCollector (ed. by the late Frank Mallory) in ... 1992 :D - and those numbers came from ZF 8) - I believe to remember.
Achim
(4-speed)
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Hi Achim,
It was a joke. There always appeared to be more 5 speeds with out correct provenance in the USA so one can only assume that lots of PO's fitted the ZF 5-20's in the past in a similar manner to putting GT stripes on a Mini.
I understand that there were about 3700 of the zf 5-20 gearboxes produced (882 for the W13 as you pointed out) and others including the Maserati.
There is one on the German Ebay at the moment from a Maserati
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Maserati-Sebring-Mistral-Mexico-Mercedes-Pagode-W113-Getriebe-ZF-S5-20-Gearbox-/250921622992?pt=DE_Autoteile&hash=item3a6c181dd0#ht_500wt_1061
Mark,
I did mix up the Data Card that Rocketman1 wanted with the Certificate that used to be available. :-[
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Thanks Achim and Garry,
You just saved me $100.
I don't want the "Zertifikate" and even if I did, it sounds like it isn't available.
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Good Evening Gents. Well lots of talk about the trans./data cards/Zertifikat's.
First the Zertifikat's ARE available. I sent for mine today via fed ex. It now costs $125 US (thats a rip), plus shipping. Achim probably is right, it will look nice on your wall, but hell, I have lots of wall space in my garage. If you google and go to: classic parts @mbusa.com
you'll see the seperate site for Only the Zertifikat application. Click on that and you got the form.
Is it different than the data card? There's one way to tell, why doesn't somebody send us an e-mail of there data card (and yes you can block out the key codes) and if Achim will send his Zertifikat we'll know for sure the difference.
The ones in our Technical data base that Klaus Drexl refers too, are too fuzzy for me.
Lets talk about the ZF-5 Trans.
The MB # on mine is 1025 401 042
The Diff. # is 110 357 00 17
Now we know George D. and BenzDr. have ones in there 1966"s, 230 SL's, what are the MB # for those two parts? Maybe we can "back into" these question's ourselves.
Good discussions on a great subject. I really look forward to meeting you guy's sometime in the near future.
Thanks for the feed back
David Lewandos
AKA: rockerman1
PS: that was my nickname in high school, I used to "modify" the Estes Rockets in my physics class. They went way higher, and we didn't find many of them after launching!!!
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If ZF made 3700 units most of them were not installed in MB cars. My information tells me that Benz installed them in about 1,400 cars. 882 113's, 108's and some 111/112's. I think they made a few for 189 engined cars and I saw one once at the Meadowbrook car show that was a 300SE Cab. Not only is this car rare, but the factory only instaled a total of three 5 speeds in that version, making it the rarest of the rare.
The one I saw belongs to MB - they know it's rare.
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Dan,
in a current German Ebay advert for the ZF the seller is quoting the number 3700 total for the gearbox. I don't know how accurate that is and think it may be a bit high but I do know that any 5-20 box that I have seen in the last couple of years, have all come from Maserati's, I am just not going to chase up how many Maserati's had them but I suspect not an awful lot of those cars were built anyway.
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Garry,
I took a look at that ebay advertised ZF 5-speed. Not sure what good it would do for anyone interested in fitting a ZF to a 113. The setup required by the Maserati inlcuding the linkage and the bellhousing are entirely different. In addition, the casing also looks quite different. My guess is the only commonality to the Zf designed for the 113's is the internal setup. I'll ask Dan to chime in further with his thoughts on this.
George Desiderio
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The ones used in Maserati cars are similar but the external parts are diffferent. Bell housing, ouput shaft and shifter are not the same parts but I would think the internals are the same. I know little about these cars but it could be that on some models this was all they used.
The set up used for our cars has all ZF parts. Even the bell housing is ZF so if you find one without a bell housing it won't do you much good. All of the aluminium parts were sand casted indicating low production numbers. ZF made their own input and output shafts that have the same dimensions as a MB box but the internal ends are not the same. You can't use a MB input shaft on a ZF box, it won't fit or work.
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Garry/Dan,
Exactly where on the data card should I be able to find the ZF 5 Speed called out. I got a very hard to read copy of my data card today and I've been able to decipher most of it by cross checking with the info that I already have such as the body number, key numbers, etc. This all checks out. I can make out the transmission (Getriebe) number but can not find anything that resembles a code for the transmission--the numbers across the center of the card are all but unreadable they are so faint.
George desiderio
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.../...Exactly where on the data card should I be able to find the ZF 5 Speed called out../..
The codes for the ZF box and 1:4,08 rear axle that goes with it are SA 230 and 232.
On your data card, they are in the upper right hand quadrant. Heading is "wenig gewuenscht" in small letters
/Hans in Sweden
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Attached is my data card
Note the second line right hand side codes 230 being the optional 5 speed and 232 being the 4.08 rear axle ratio.
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Thanks, guys. Unfortunately the quality of my card is so bad I can not read anything in that area. Garry, the 230SL data card is formatted somewhat differently but I can vaguely make out the same heading on mine. Can't believe that as festidious as MB is that they don't maintain better quality images of these things. Understand these records are over 40 years old but I've seen other such records much older and in much better shape than these.
George
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George,
in the Tech Manual under Data Card and Codes it goes into fine detail for each of the differing Data Cards that were supplied over the life of the W113. You will need to search around the various code headings once you have identified your card type and location of the different codes.
http://www.sl113.org/wiki/DataCard/Start
You can see such things as the options codes, paint codes, colour codes etc and you need to go into each to identify what is applicable to your Card in each of the boxes other than just the engine, gearbox, axle numbers etc.
Garry
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Garry, thanks for sharing your data card!
Hans, thanks for the code #'s for the ZF-5 (ie: SA 230 and 232 axle ratio.)
I will have my data card monday or tuesday and will share it too.
FYI, I got an e-mail from one of our club members off this site.
His neighbor used to work on the assembly line during the 60's, and he alledges that there were some pre 1966 models(albiet, very very few) pagoda's built at the factory with the ZF 5 tranmission. We'll see.
rocketman1
1964 230 SL ZF-5 268H dark green
1982 500 SL
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My car was the same colour green when new.
If there were a few cars built before '66 it would indicate that they were unofficial requests made from friends or workers at the factory. We can assume from this that they were tinkering with the idea long before they became an official option in the sales literature.
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So Dan what is on your Data Card re Gearbox?
Garry
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Garry & Dan, If it's not too much trouble, what are the MB 10 digit numbers on your ZF 5 case's.
Mine is: 1025 401 042
It would be interesting to see if MB changed there part no. over this time period.
rocketman1
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My 5 speed is currently being manufactured by ZF. Delivery 2012 :P ;D
PO must have flogged it off when it broke due to cost of repair. The one you have may well be from my car :o :o
I fitted a Getrag in the car last year as I was not able to get a ZF 5-20 in reasonable condition with known history as most have been fitted as non standard to W113's. The ratios are roughly the same as the ZF
Most that have come up in the last four or five years have been unknown condition with a quote for overhaul starting at the price of the gearbox plus parts if you can find the parts. I was not prepared to go there at this point and decide to wait for a new one from ZF.
Garry
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So Dan what is on your Data Card re Gearbox?
Garry
I never bothered to get one. I know the car is an original 5 speed. I've owned the car 19 years so I would have seen evidence of modifications long ago but there are none.
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As I mentioned in the post above, my data card is all but unreadable. What I can see on the card is a getriebe number and it is 613853. I purchased my car over 35 years ago and I know I'm the second owner. The first was an Italian doctor. Based on the numbers I'm reading on this very difficult to read card, I'm now beginning to wonder if he had by chance had the ZF box fitted in Italy once he took delivery of it or perhaps the card is just wrong with the exchange taking place at the factory while it was being prepared for final delivery. I can't find anything else on this card that looks like it was assembled for an Italian delivery, yet everything else on it says so--tailights, sidemarkers, decals, the Italian delivery/registration documentation I got with the car and the ZF 5 speed--all really strange!
George
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Dan, I am intrigued, what evidence would be there to show that it was not a four speed given that they are pretty much a bolt in with a shorter tail shaft?
George, scan in your data card and post it. It should have the country code 543 if it was italy. Maybe it was bought in Germany and then driven back to Italy.
As I have said before, there are lots of UZS cars that look Euro with 5 speed that started life as something very different.
Garry
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Oh, well that's an easy answer. The drive shaft isn't modified, all the shift linkage is the correct stuff and it came with a 4.08 drum brake axle.
As I said earlier, no one back then would have bothered to find all of this stuff and change it over. The chances of that are unlikely. If they only found the trans there would be evidence of shifter mods and there are none.
Not that it matters as much but the car is an Italian import, most which were original 5 speeds. I suppose I could get the dara card but I'm more than sure it's original.
If you spend all day looking at this stuff you will see what's right and what isn't. If someone changed all of this stuff over 20+ years ago, they went to a lot of bother to find all of the correct pieces and that's not how most people do things. They find the main piece to make it all work and then figure out everything after that point.
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Dan,
I agree. I'm not sure the original owner of mine who was a physician with a bunch of young kids would have gone through all the trouble to make the change over to the ZF considering it would have required the modified driveshaft, linkage, etc. My guess is that this is how the car came from the factory i.e. with the ZF 5 speed installed. I'm just puzzled with the issue of the data card which unfortunately doesn't have enough readability to provide much of a clue. Garry, I'll try attaching a copy of the data card to an email--it is so vague it would never scan so you could read any of it.
George
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Garry,
This is my data card. Like I said, very difficult to make out certain areas that may provide the answers.
George
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Question, I'm getting ready to swap out my flex disc's and carrier bearing. This ZF-5 trans. has NEVER been serviced. I owned the car from 1976 to 1982 and the transmission worked fine. Then the Car was stored in a barn (never driven) for 29 yrs. here in Texas before I got it back 2 month's ago. Don't ask, Long story!!!
Who & where would you send this transmission to be taken apart and serviced, if thats possible?
There's only one company listed in our club directory.
Dan do you or anyone else have any suggestions?
Thanks
rocketman1
PS: I called and I"ll have my data card tomorrow.
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I had mine apart about 15 years ago. The input shaft bearing was making a lot of noise so I had no choice but to take it apart.
A four speed box is very simple by comparison. With the availability of new parts again I'm going to take mine apart again this winter and go back through it. Everything works but 3rd gear will grind if shifted a bit too quickly during up or down shifts. I don't think I have too much end play but I'll check for that.
I was able to get a repair manual for the trans although it's a translation from German and none of the pictures came out cleary. There was enough specs and information to figure out all of the end play tollerances and assembly proceedures.
I've considered rebuilding them using my own car as a mule for testing. I would want to investigate what parts are going to be available and their costs before I'd make any decisions.
Most of the parts you would replace during a rebuild would be bearings, seals and probably syncro rings. Bearings are not like the ones used in the four speed box and are timken or typer roller. Setting proper end play is critical on these bearings.
The syncros are all steel except reverse gear - yes, reverse has a syncro on it! When the gear box is cold you must shift slowly until the box warms up. It's takes a bit of force to shift in cold weather. Normal summer temps shouldn't cause any real shifting problems.
The shift gate has a fairly strong spring on it. I remember not getting it engaged properly after I had mine apart which caused a bit of panic until I figured out that the ends of the spring had to sit on both sides of a rail under the top cover.
This spring makes shifting feel rather different than a 4 speed box and requires a bit of a push sideways to put it into first gear. 1st gear is much further towards the left than a four speed box and right up against your knee ( or, at least my knee ) and second is almost as bad as 1st. 3rd and 4th are more or less where you would find 1st and 2nd in a four speed box while 5th is to the far right and up. This puts the shifter about as far away from my knee as it can go. When your 6'3'' 260 lbs, you need all the room you can get.
Reverse is below 5th and can be engaged while the car is still gently rolling but I would advise against it. The syncro will work but why chance it.
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Dan,
You probably have the same tech manual I have. I got it through a Maserati site, but it covers both the Maserati version and the MB version of the S5-20. I'm curious about the noise yours was making prior to going into it. I've noticed when I first start out, there is an annoying "pinwheeling" sort of noise that appears to come from the right side of the transmission tunnel. Using synthetic auto transmission fluid. This goes away after a short while--maybe the first few hundred yards or so. No resistance to running through any of the gears and no grinding at all. What I do notice is that once the car is up to speed if I suddenly let up on the accelerator, I have what sounds like a loud rush or whine coming from the same right side. As soon as I go back to the accelerator this sounds goes away. So, it sounds like as long as the drive train is under load there is no noise. I thought perhaps this could be the exhaust pipes on the heat shield or maybe the flex disk and driveshaft being out of line.
This box was rebuilt back in Germany by ZF around 1982 and does not have that much mileage on it since the rebuild--maybe 10,000 or so, but did lay up for maybe 8-9 years while the rest of the car was being restored.
George
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I would look at every other possibilty before loooking at the trans. Sounds like it could be problems with too much end play if it is the gear box. It doesn't sound like it's bad enough to warrant pulling the box out for a rebuild.
I would keep an eye on it and see if the noise changes or gets louder.
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Hello guys,
According to the MB Classic Wiki the 5-speed manual transmission ZF S 5-20 was available from September 1965 onwards.
ZF recently decided to produce a few hundred brand new of these boxes -all to the original specifications- but they cost an arm and a leg.
A cheaper alternative could be to look for a late 70-ies Opel Kadett, Manta or Ascona. The more sportier versions of these cars were fitted with the ZF 5-speed. It would take some puzzling though to have it fitted to an Pagode.
Greetings,
Erik
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Greetings, well I got my data card today. Interesting info. I'll scan mine tomorrow and share.
The car was built and shipped to a MB dealer in Munchen, Germany Nov. of 64
My eng. block # match's vin # on the card
and NOPE, no code for the ZF-5 trans. in the respective area on the data card.
Body color/hardtop/leather match also.
My ZF-5 had to of been installed sometime while it was in Germany, because it showed up 12 yrs. later in Texas (1976) and that's when I bought it with that Transmission on the car.
Garry's was built with the factory installed ZF-5 and was shipped to Great Britian from the factory.
George yours was sent to Italy (543), but there's no ZF-5 listed on your card, but you have one.
Dan it will only take a second to send your title by fax, and you'll know for sure if the ZF-5 was factory installed & if the car was shipped to Italy.
That's it for me tonight
Regards
rocketman1
1964 230 SL ZF-5 268H Dark Green, 216 Cognac Leather
1982 500 SL
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Be funny if the ZF box in your car was the one that Garry's car originally had :D
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My car was delivered in Bristol UK and I believe that the transmission was changed over there before the car was taken to New Zealand then to Australia.
Must be something about Green cars ;)
Garry
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I'm trying to get a clearer version of my data card if one exists. I've played around with the one Tom Hanson sent me by blowing it up--as large as 1000X, changing the colors, viewing from different angles/distances, etc. It has helped highlight a few codes that were not evident on first look. In the position where the ZF codes would be found, I've been able to pick out the 720 that indicates the color of the soft top. There are also some very, very faint indications that there are additional codes in the "wenig gewunscht" block--this is like a "hanging chad" search!. Some 2's and perhaps some 3's, so my guess is that the ZF did come with the car from the factory. Just wish they had a better quality copy from the factory to be absolutely sure!
George
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George,
Does the card appear have two areas in the option code area filled, i.e one for the axle 230 and one for the gear box 232.
Put a copy on the forum for us to see.
Garry
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Garry,
See my post above. I attached a copy. Maybe someone who can manipulate the pixels better than I can will be able to read those areas. I've tried and can see something maybe there but who knows.
George
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Hi Goerge,
I tried some image enhancing programs and came up with the attached typed in info (in bold).
Aside from the 720 there are only "---" 3-times in "wenig gewünscht", clearly there are no "230" or "232' option codes listed. :(
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.../...Aside from the 720 there are only "---" 3-times in "wenig gewünscht", clearly there are no "230" or "232' option codes listed. :(
Nice work on the enhancement Alfred! To add to your conclusion, is the gear box serial No "Getriebe". This is far to high to be a ZF 5-speed box.
/Hans in Sweden
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Yea George, that's what I was able to pick out, three lines in a row next to 720 were blank. the 720 is soft top black.
Bummer, however like mine, you still have one! Where did these ZF-5's come from. Did they have an O'Reileys store in Germany back then selling these things?
That's a joke of course.
rocketman1
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To have the ZF code you will always have the 4.08 Axle code as well in the options area I believe.
And where did they come from, from cars like mine where the PO did not have enough cash to splash or sold it off not liking it or to make money, not understanding the importance of originality.
As stated in another posting thread comment from Motoring Investments that originality adds value. Add a 5 speed without the data card to back it up adds only the value of the 5 speed less the cost of replacing it with the original transmission.Maybe some will like it and pay for the 5 speed alone. Bit like the paint colour, change it to suite your taste but be aware that not everyone will share your taste and the value may repeat may be affected.
Garry
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Garry here's my data card,
rocketman1
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This is all very curious and I'm beginning to wonder if some of these ZF equipped 230's weren't actually done at the destination MB dealership at the request of the original owner/customer. Would be interesting to find out from either ZF or MB if some of these boxes were shipped to the MB dealers expressly for them to install or perhaps even as spares. I know Italy provided a big customer base for 5 speed equipped cars and this may have been one way the Italian MB dealerships drew in customers. Like Dan, I'm convinced mine is as it was originally delivered to the first owner regardless of what the card says. Maybe our German and Italian members might be able to shed some light.
George
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Thanks Rocketman1
I can understand your disappointment not having the 5 speed option code. I had my car for a year before I heard about getting the data card on this forum and found out that it should have had a 5 speed. It did make me rush to the car to see if there was another gear that I had never used but alas, disappointment also and 5 years of searching for a good one with out any luck.
Would have loved to have also had the option 600 ;D
Sorry George and Dan, no data card no cigar. :P
Garry
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Garry,
No big deal. The car runs the same with or without the annotation on the card. I changed over my interior from the original green (124)--a color I never really liked to the dark blue available on later cars. I've also added an A/C system, changed out the original radio, stripped off the original Glasurit paint and refinished in PPG Acrylic Urethane and a host of other little things, so it is far from original as it stands. Would have been nice but "Oh Well" ;D.
On another note, great job on those firewall pads. These will be great and welcome additions to all our cars. I will also be anxious to hear how the new ZFs work out when they get delivered. I'm hoping ZF makes some of the aluminum castings available so I can finally fix the rear speedometer cover on mine properly.
Best,
George
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George,
On the letter I got from ZF to confirm my order they did indicate that they will also be producing spares but would not indicate how or what they will produce and distribute.
A person I know spent up near $7000 Aust on getting several new gears made a couple of years ago. Puts the ZF asking price of Euro 7800 in perspective. We are lucky now that the AU dollar has increased better than 40% against the Euro and USD in the last year or so.
Garry
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Great info guys. Brings up several questions.
Erik, you mentioned a new ZF-5 will cost an "arm & leg". If you or someone else knows, what will they sell for?
George, a couple for you. Where can I get a ZF-5 Tech manual that you found. You also mentioned that a person would have to modify the driveshaft,linkage etc. to install a ZF-5. Dan is that correct?
In otherwords, if a pagoda came with a 4 speed from the factory, could the tranmission housing be unbolted and the ZF-5 tranmission housing be bolted into it's place without any modifications?
And, (sorry this subject is very interesting) George I think you hit on something, if you look at the Dealer and Country code records and cross it with the production stats. & exports, a couple facts pop up.
Over 50 % of the 1963-64-65 230 SL's were shipped to German MB dealerships. Allmost all the 250 SL's were shipped out of Germany
and aprox. 75% of the 280 SL's were shipped out of Germany, with most of those shipped to the US with the auto trans.
If I lived in Germany in 1966 and had one of these cool (pre 1966) 230 SL's in my garage with the 4 speed, and found out that a 5 speed now was available, I would be first in line at the dealership to swap it out with a "factory built ZF-5 transmission". This would possibly explain why the car has one, but the data card shows something different.
Food for thought
Good Evening
rocketman1
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New ZF S5-20 cost is €7800 As per Garry's info above.
Not sure where you can buy the manual but I can scan and send it. Some of the pictures are too dark to make out.
swapping from the standard to the ZF requires a different front tailshaft section, shifter linkages, gear knob and possibly a different transmission mount.
Are you sure your transmission is the ZF? (the attached photo shows what it should look like).
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A couple of more photos for comparison
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Rocketman1,
Check out this site for the S5-20 service manual. It goes into great detail on disassembly/assembley and all the part specs. A really good source to have around at $55.00.
http://www.maseratinet.com//p-15091-zf-s5-20-service-manual.aspx
Dave--no doubt on my ZF--I have had it out and had it rebuilt by ZF many years ago in Mannheim, Germany--it is the ZF S5-20 Model. I need to get under the car to check on ther serial number.
George
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The bellhousing is different although I do not think there is any difference in the way it bolts up to the engine. On the standard MB tranmission, the bellhousing is designed to mate to the transmission housing with a set of shims that are used to set the end play on the transmission mainshaft. The main bearings being ball bearings. The S5-20 mainshaft is set in Timken roller bearings. These are very common Timken bearings found on a lot of boat trailer wheels believe it or not. The linkage rod and tubes are different lengths between the two transmissions--can't remember which one uses the longer set, but pretty obvious when you look at them--I have a set up for a 4 speed in the garage so I've actually eyed the two sets. I've been told that the driveshaft set up with the S5-20 has a different lenght front section and have also heard that the front section from an auto transmission can be substituted for one or the other to make up the difference in the length. Dan would have some better perspective on this.
George
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That's a ZF 5 speed in the pictures - no doubt about that.
All parts on the trans are ZF - nothing fom MB fits except the flex disc. The shifter rod isn't very long at maybe 12 inches and the stabilizer rods are also shorter. These parts could be easily modified. The front section of the drive shaft is shorter than on a four speed box but I don't know by how much. The next time I have my car on the hoist I will measure it and see.
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Thanks Guys, Great stuff.
Dave, whats the MB no. on top of the transmission. I can make out 1025 4-- ---,the rest is blurry.
Mine is 1025 401 042
There's also that metal tag on the side, can you read any of those numbers?
Garry, can you share your numbers too please.
George thanks for the web site for the book!
Stupid question. Did the ZF company make the 4 speed transmissions for our cars???
Regards
rocketman1
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The number your reading is on the casting and looks like a ZF casting number. It is the same on mine. The serial number is on the metal data plate further up on the left hand side. Tried to read mine by crawling under but I'll need to wait until I get it up on a lift--too hard to do crawling in there on a creeper!
George
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Hello Rocketman1
In attachment you find the flyer announcing production of the (new) ZF box;
This arm&leg woult cost you 6850 euro, VAT (and export/import taxes) not included.
greetings,
Erik
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The top casting number on the trans in my photo is 1025 406 132. I'm not sure on the significance of these different numbers. There are some details on the numbers in Michael Egan's 2005 Pagoda World article but they don't seem to match the top plate number, maybe ithey relate to the side plate number (I don't have a photo of the plate). The 4-speed is model 'G72' but I don't know the manufacturer.
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Hello Rocketman1
Mercedes has a reputation for making its own transmissions.
The 4-speeds and automatics are Mercedes design/production.
The 5-speed offered as an option on the Pagodes was an exception, as it was produced by ZF (www.zf.com)
The 5-speed fitted to some BMW's (and Opels) in the 70ies and wich is often installed in Pagodes is a Getrag product.
greetings,
Erik
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As I had said earlier, mine has been lost but here are some photos from other Gear boxes I looked at showing where there are part numbers either stamped on the ID Plate Dave refereed to or on the castings for the box. And these are the ones I didnt buy. I ended up using a Getrag box out of an early BMW M3 with Mark Bulls adaptor plate Kit.
Eric, I have my name down for one of the ZF new production. I had forgotten how much they were. That is even cheaper !!! than I remembered. It is probably cheaper than buying a second hand one and having it overhauled. ;D ;D ;D With the Aussie dollar that is 8)
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Thanks Erik,
A bit of a slight to Mercedes my not knowing that! Oh well, now I do.
Garry those rear casting numbers will apparently indicate whether the transmission was from a 230/250 or 280 (or 300). I think the 054 was for 280sl. I will check this evening.
Yes, €6850 is not too bad in Australia, given that it's brand new with a warranty. The Australian govt will probably want its 10% though. I couldn't justify the expense, that's 1.5 x the purchase price of my car! Let alone trying to explain it on the home front. However in your situation it makes perfect economic sense. Clearly your wife will appreciate that. :D
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Thanks again fellas,
DaveB, yep my trans. has the ZF casting logo on the side of the box. Thanks to Eric, who says MB made the 4 speed that clears that issue up. Also since my tranmission is still installed in the car, the casting numbers are also on the driver side, just above the ZF plate.
Again mine reads 1025 401 042. Am I "wishing" to think that the 042 ties to the model number for the 230 SL's??? The 1025 so far match's all the other ZF-5's.
DaveB, if there's not a million pages to your ZF manual, would you scan and send it when you have the time.
Thanks again George for the web site for the other manual.
Have a Great Evening, it's 8:45pm here in Texas right now.
rocketman1l
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Rocket
I think that '042' is coincidental. Will check on that, and search for the ZF workshop manual.
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DavidB, Thanks, and it would be nice if the manual address's that numbering (042) issue somehow.
I sent an e-mail to the ZF factory last nite asking about the status of the new (retro ZFS 5-20) transmissions. I asked them,
Did they get 250 orders? If so when will they be built and ready for shipping in 2012, also at the bottom of the order form that Eric sent us, it said they would make
"Kits" available for the OEM ZF - 5's (ie:seals,bearings,clutch plates,etc.) That would be a God send! It said it takes them 3 days to respond to e-mails.
Is there anybody in our group that lives in Germany, close to this plant, were they can stop in and say, "HI, how's the ZFS 5-20 program coming along"
Best regards
rocketman1
1964 230 SL
1982 500 SL
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Don't hold your breathe in getting a response from the ZF crowd. I've sent multiple inquires to them in the past few years on some fairly simple issues and have never gotten a response. Not sure what their problem is but that has been my experience and I'm not the only one.
George
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Here's the ZF 'type numbers' from the 2005 Pagoda World document. I don't know where this number would be found on the trans, if it's there.
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Well this helps. I got under my car today and after some effort was able to read some numbers on the box. There is an 057 stamped on the data plate so accoding to the article in DaveBs post above, the box was made for either a 230 or 250. The other number stamped on the plate is 1675. Not sure what that number is--could be the serial number?
George
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DaveB thanks for the ZF number "code" sheet. I showed the trans. picture you posted to a friend of mine that has been rebuilding thousands of transmissions over the last 35 years at his shop. I'm going to pull it myself this weekend and take it to him. He said he'll disasemble it and lay it out in sequence, piece by piece, for us to see. I'm going to take before, during and after pictures. He wasn't that concerned about finding seals or bearings. In any event, I got to know what that thing looks like in great detail.
Hopefully ZF will come through with there promise of providing service "kits".
BenzDR, have you or someone you know done this?
Regards
rocketman1
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Sounds like a good man to know. It would be great to see the work photographed in sequence if you can be there while he does it. It would also be a great addition to this site's technical manual.
Careful with that bellhousing when it comes out! That would be an expensive replacement. Also, when you reinstall, don't overtighten the speedometer cable pinchbolt.
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Some internal photos :o They were sold on Ebay a couple of years ago for $1000 I think for the lot
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Some more photos of the ZF internals :o
My understanding from ZF is that the spares will not be available until at least 2012 after the production run of Gear boxes and spares in complete.
Hope you dont need Gears. They will be the single biggest expense to replace.
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Great photos of all the components. The Maserati manual also has many photos as well. I haven't looked at the manual in a while, but I seem to recall it also has an extensive listing of all the parts with a complete diagram numbering each one. Many of the parts such as bearings, seals, nuts, bolts, studs, washers, etc are commonly available items. For example the two tapered roller bearings on the main shaft, as I pointed out earlier, are Timkens used on boat trailer wheels. The big expense on spares will be as Garry points out on any gears, synchros, castings or shafts that would need to be replaced, but I've got to think that with all the modern manufacturing advances made over the past 40 years that these have got to be a lot cheaper to produce now provided they do use those modern processes.
George
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Interesting thanks. That layshaft gear looks a little chewed. I think I see the Timken tapered roller bearing, also on the layshaft. Indeed, looks just like those on my boat trailer.
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Thanks Guys, Awsome photos and info!
47 years after the car was built Without (data card proof) the ZF-5 transmission. Here's what's there.
Looking at it on the the car carrier yesturday here's what I saw.
1. There's no Question that it's a ZF trans. with the Mercedes parts numbers. not a Maserati trans.
2. Everything lines up, (ie:servo fluid line to frame,electric cable length with male/female connectors mounted, on frame in what appears to be the correct the location.
3. Transmission support bracket appears OEM.
4. This is interesting, the tunnel for the drive shafts, carrier bearing and the flex discs, GET this, Looks NO different than the, euro 1982 500SL that I bought new.
Someone had mention earlier that they thought possibly, MB dealers could of had access to the ZF-5's back in the 60's as add on's for there customers. This sure looks like that scenario!
You All be Good
rocketman1
PS: What the heck does that 2 prong electric cable do or control anyway????
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That would be the connection for the back-up or reverse light switch.
George
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It's out and in the back of my wifes SUV.
It's a ZFS 5-20 Getr.Nr. 690
Stuckl. Nr. 1025 0000 33
It took me 6 hrs. to pull, then a friend helped me "wiggle" it away from the clutch plate.
I'll send photos of the ZF tag. For being 47 yrs. old, it's almost in perfect condition.
Thanks for all your help.
rocketman1
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Rocketman,
Would it be possible, while you have the transmission out, to post some detailed photos and measurements of the ancillary 5-speed specific parts - shifter linkages, transmission mount and front tailshaft?
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DaveB. Yes for sure. I'll do all the measurments Metric.
Pictures to follow, I'm learning slowly how to send them to you guys.
FYI, The transmission with bell housing is a little bastard, I expected a much larger part!
rocketman1
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ZF factory Tag on transmission photo
Butt end of transmission photo
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forgot tag picture, sorry
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I'll do all the measurements Metric. Naturally ;)
That would be very helpful.
I have never seen an S5-20 transmission in the flesh but I gathered they must be relatively small because they only weigh 27kg and they only take 1.1L of oil. I think they are longer than the G72 transmission though.
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Anyone know what the S5 - 20 means? I think I can figure out the S5 but I'm not sure about the - 20.
I'm guessing that the S5 stands for synrocnized five speed. Actually, all 6 gears which includes reverse are synrocnized so that's why I'm guessing. I'm sure they're only referring to the five forward gears in this case.
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Anyone know what the S5 - 20 means? I think I can figure out the S5 but I'm not sure about the - 20
-20 stands for that the box is suited for 200Nm max torque
I'm guessing that the S5 stands for synrocnized five speed.
Right
/Hans in Sweden
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.../... they would make "Kits" available for the OEM ZF - 5's (ie:seals,bearings,clutch plates,etc.) That would be a God send! It said it takes them 3 days to respond to e-mails.
Is there anybody in our group that lives in Germany, close to this plant, were they can stop in and say, "HI, how's the ZFS 5-20 program coming along"
I have now done so. See thread http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=15652.0 (http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=15652.0)
/Hans in Sweden
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forgot tag picture, sorry
You had some speculation as to the originality of the box in your W113. The ID plate in the photo attached shows the box that you now have was produced for and factory installed into a 300SE Mercedes. (See table in reply #75 DaveB). These beasts are/were certainly rare, i.e, made in much limited numbers.
/Hans in Sweden
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Hans,
That combination in a 300 SE would have to be even rarer than a Pagoda. Cannot imagine too many US delivered cars would have had that.
The modification to Rocketmans car may not be that old as it would certainly be worth while doing it correctly in this day and age.
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Hans/Garry, I finally got a reply from the ZF factory this week.
Your right, they said it was for a DB 300 SE.
It was the 157th one built for some lucky 300 SE owner.
The car arrived in Texas in 1977, thats when I bought it, and that box was in the car. I was 24 yrs old and had no idea what I had.
The other ID plate shows that the car was sent to a MB dealer in Munich Nov. 1964. The swap out had to of been done in Germany.
Either the orig. owner of the 300 SE got tired of shifting, or the car got hit by a freight train, and they sold the trans.
rocketman1
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Probably a write off of the 300 SE. but it is good that who ever did the job has done every thing correctly. Maybe it was a dealer that told the owner about the written off car and gear box.
You indicated that you are overhauling the gear box, was there something wrong with it or are you just planning seals and bearings, the non ZF gear that is available?
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Garry, In 1982 the car ran fine, that's when the car was moved & stored in a barn in Texas for the past 29 years!! I just got it back in sept. of this year. That being said, I'm planning to just replace seals and as many bearings as I can get. More precaution service than anyting else.
Best Regards
rocketman1
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...... the car was moved & stored in a barn in Texas for the past 29 years!! I just got it back in sept. of this year. ......
Rocketman1,
I don't believe we've heard the whole story or seen any pictures.
If you care to tell us, there are many that will enjoy hearing it.
Any story that includes "29 years in a barn" must be interesting. And it was yours before it went in the barn?
If you tell us, please do so in another thread so this hijack (sorry about that) doesn't continue.
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Anyone had a 5 speed with a VIN on their car earlier than 017168? I think that puts my car somewhere around Oct '66 which is shortly after they had the 5 speed as an option.
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Dan,
I'm 018043 and my data card has a build date in September 1966 so yours is sometime right before that.
George
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Dan, your car was built in july of "66"*
In order to help with actual stats for the ZF's box's, Dan can you check your metal ZF tag, it should have (032) hand stamped in the top right hand corner. Then in the bottom right corner, your box will be hand stamped with a "number produced" around (350), that's my guess.**
Garry, since yours is an actual carded ZF S 5-20, Can you check your tag. It should be (064) and "number produced" around (135)
*/** This is info I got from our Tech. Manual, Production Stats, and the reprint from ZF's Production Data for All transmissions built for DB cars. Lets see how acurate the printed info is compaired to our cars.
Thanks
rocketman1
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Mine is stamped -057 and 1675.
George
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According to my data card it is numbered 3021 for a 10 March 1969 ex factory
Anyone here got my gear box??? :D :D
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Anyone here got my gear box??? :D :D
I hope not. Unlikely though, as the seller said he'd bought it in California (would you swap it for a new one if it was yours? ;))
I'm still not sure of the status of mine. I know there is something in that crate.
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If ZF made 3700 units most of them were not installed in MB cars. My information tells me that Benz installed them in about 1,400 cars. 882 113's, 108's and some 111/112's. I think they made a few for 189 engined cars and I saw one once at the Meadowbrook car show that was a 300SE Cab. Not only is this car rare, but the factory only instaled a total of three 5 speeds in that version, making it the rarest of the rare.
The one I saw belongs to MB - they know it's rare.
I own a 1967 300SE Coupe with a factory installed Zf 5 speed.
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I was at a car show where MB had one of their cars on display. A 300SE Cab with 5 speed trans. I was told that it's one of three built making it a very rare car.
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I was at a car show where MB had one of their cars on display. A 300SE Cab with 5 speed trans. I was told that it's one of three built making it a very rare car.
Benz Dr ,
1 of 3 M189 Cabriolets with a zf or 1 of 3 overall M189 cars including Coupes & Cab's ?
My car , a 1967 300se coupe , was owned since 1971 by Tom Sheppard and participated in many MBCA events and won many events too from the information I've gathered on it. Tom was good friends with Frank Mallory and Michael Egan who wrote the article about the S5-20 already mentioned earlier in this discussion. Anyway , I'd like to zero in on the actual # of 'factory installed ' W112 car's with the S5-20 tranny. I'll report back , if I uncover any additional info. on this topic.
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Louis, You could have the "brass Ring" with that transmission. ie:1of3 built.
The actual ZF metal tag that's riveted to your transmission, WILL answer that question.
Your tag will be hand stamped after the 1025 000 in the top right corner with either 033 or 058 for the 300SE model car. If thats the case, it will be hand stamped with the numbers 534 up to 813 down in the bottom right hand corner of that tag.
If the hand stamped number in the top right is 069, Bingo, you have one of three built for the 300SE !!!!!!
Accordling it should be stamped down in the right corner 001 or 002 or 003. Hope you got it!!!
In any case, you have a Fantastic Classic MB with a rare or very rare Transmission from ZF.
Best Regards
rocketman1
PS: Please, let us know
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300SE Cab's are already a rare car but in this case I'm talking only about that car. According to the MB guy on hand at the show, he told me this car was one of only three that had the 5 speed trans option. He seemed surprised that I even noticed that it had a 5 speed, the shift knob being the only indicator.
I didn't ask about the 300SE coupe but I suppose there were a few of those made as well. I've either read ot been told that MB outfitted roughly 1,400 cars with the 5 speed. It's all very rare stuff today.
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Louis, You could have the "brass Ring" with that transmission. ie:1of3 built.
The actual ZF metal tag that's riveted to your transmission, WILL answer that question.
Your tag will be hand stamped after the 1025 000 in the top right corner with either 033 or 058 for the 300SE model car. If thats the case, it will be hand stamped with the numbers 534 up to 813 down in the bottom right hand corner of that tag.
If the hand stamped number in the top right is 069, Bingo, you have one of three built for the 300SE !!!!!!
Accordling it should be stamped down in the right corner 001 or 002 or 003. Hope you got it!!!
In any case, you have a Fantastic Classic MB with a rare or very rare Transmission from ZF.
Best Regards
rocketman1
PS: Please, let us know
I'll let you know. Worth noting is that Tom Sheppard , the previous owner of my car , may have replaced the original factory zf unit in the 1970's according to a entry in the paperwork I received with this car. I haven't read it since I bought the car several years ago but I vaguely remember reading something about it while I quickly went through the notes he kept . So this unit may be a replacement zf box ?
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Louis, What ever the tag reads will stiil be great info for the group to have.
FYI, the only way to read the actual tag is to put it on a car lift. Even than you have to be a "monkey" to get your head up close to read it.
Mine is on page 4 of this thread, and thats after I pulled the complete transmission and had it on the bench!!!
Good luck
rocketman1
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Here's are some thoughts regarding the hsitory of some of our ZF boxes.. If there were only about 900 or so ZF S 5-20 boxes produced for the MB 113s. I would wonder if Daimler Benz would be able to quickly determine what VIN a specific ZF serial number was originally put into. As meticulous as Daimler is I'm sure somewhere in their archives they have this information. This could help some of us add another piece to the puzzle on where our boxes may have come from if not indicated on the data card. Do any of our German members know how to pursue this? I would also suggest asking ZF if all S5-20 with the cast iron housing were provided to DB and if not to whom else, but they have been so unresponsive on other requests that I'm sure this would be a non-starter with them. Yeah still no response on the many e-mails I've sent them!
George
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Came across this listing on EBay. Were there any ZF 280's in 71'?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1971-mercedes-280sl-zf-5-speed-manual-trans-rare-low-pruduction-car-no-air-cond-/140785942582?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item20c77f0036#ht_686wt_948
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Came across this listing on EBay. Were there any ZF 280's in 71'?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1971-mercedes-280sl-zf-5-speed-manual-trans-rare-low-pruduction-car-no-air-cond-/140785942582?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item20c77f0036#ht_686wt_948
I suspect that there were some made but they would be Euro spec cars. When MB changed to switch gear on the manual trans in mid 1969 to control the IP, they discontinued the 5 speed because it would have meant fabricating special brackets to hold the switches.
Given the relatively low sales of the 5 speed they droped the option for NA. A few euro cars could have been imported that had their gauges and head lights changed, which mght lead one to believe otherwise, or that someone had friends in high places, but generally, they were no longer available in the USA or Canada after mid 1969.