Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Drive train, fuel, suspension, steering & brakes => Topic started by: mdsalemi on June 21, 2011, 01:34:28
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I would be interested to hear of any actual experiences with a w113 radiator recore. I hear about higher efficiency than stock, via a 3-row core. Are these physically the same size? Anybody have this done? What were your results, and thoughts?
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Hi Mike. I had mine done in about 2004. Unfortunately I don't really know the details of what they did -- only that my highly competent mechanic recommended it when my car developed a noticeable coolant leak and had been running warm. He sent my radiator to a shop that specializes in hi-eff. radiators for race cars (I recall). I believe they added a third row, and they used the original top and bottom pieces. It was 700 for entire job -- removal, re-core, replace and refill. The car temperature has been extremely steady since. That is all I can remember...
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I'll be handling this myself and am interested in the details, prior to yanking it out and taking it to the shop. We have a myriad of places to take it to, due to the plethora of old cars, hot rods etc. around here, but am specifically interested in any size or performance details.
Costs have gone up, BTW, as certain countries gobble up resources and have driven copper and brass prices through the roof.
It would be probably the same cost to have a custom aluminum radiator fabricated, but we all know it wouldn't look right. Plenty of places for that too.
Anyone else having a recore done, still interested in hearing your story and details.
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Hi, Michael,
Search some of Bob Possells posts re rads.
I'm sure he had an issue with one of the hi-eff rads.
Naj
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Hi Guys!
I purchased an aftermarket HE radiator, looked great, but didnt keep the engine cool. Had my original radiator recored to HE. Same, didnt keep the engine cool (at idle in hot Memphis weather...). Then purchased an HE radiator from Gernold. Gernold's radiator worked perfectly! I would recommend giving Gernold a call.
Regards,
Bob
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I had mine recored when it was in for repair when I decided to use the drain plug to drain it. Plug and its housing sheared away from the rad.
I was based in Germany at the time and took it to a place that only did radiators for all sorts of cars, new and old. An old boy looked at it and described it as being like the heart of an 80 year old woman.
We discussed multi-cores. His view was that the more cores you put in, the smaller the pipes and the less room for cooling vanes. Bar one near problem, I wasn't having cooling problems with my car. I took his advice and followed the logic of more cores in a radiator of the same size = smaller cores and less cooling vanes, and had a normal re-core. It wasn't cheap. I think all in it was something like 400 euros. Painful. However, it's as good as new and the temp is v steady. I also removed and replaced the rad (though the bottom). I had my expansion tank checked and painted at the same time, and replaced some additional hoses.
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James Howard's assessment is one I heard: more cores=less air flow.
Gernolds exchange program is only marginally more expensive than a recore locally at reputable and high quality shops. I'll give him a call. I'd like to assume he knows what he is doing and BPossel's experience with his radiator were what we should expect.
I'm a bit curious as to why an original local recore in Tennessee didn't work out so well, and why the Tigris aftermarket didn't work well either on Bob's car.
There is no old guy in the back manufacturing the cores; the rad shops spec the cores and buy them from suppliers...then the old guy in the back solders them all together.
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After I got my car back on the road last year the temp gauge was running a little high so this spring I had the radiator recored keeping the original tube configuration ($250), and a new fan clutch installed. Car runs nice and cool once more, even on our 90F (32c) degree days. Since I had this work done at a shop, the car was up on a lift and the radiator was dropped down. The fewer times you have to take the hood off the better IMO.
John
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John, I would not remove my finely adjusted hood! Out the bottom it comes.
$250 is on the low end of a recore around these parts. I would not be surprised if rad shops start pricing like the lobster on a restaurant menu: "Market Price". Let's see, what's copper at today??
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Mike I had mine recored about 2 years back, with the three rows, we were doing a bunch of other work, and had the hood off, it was an easy out, and an easy back in. It was a local shop that did the work. Temperature is rock steady.
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I had mine re-cored within the last few months. It is sitting on my garage floor (protected :D )
This was just before I heard about Gernold. I would probably go with him today.
I opted for the 3 core.
The radiator guy gave me the diameter of the old 2 core tubes and the diameter of the new 3 core tubes (individual diameters are obviously smaller on the 3 core) and I did the math on cross sectional area and figured I would have more cross-sectional area. I figured that is how they cool more. Take all of this with a grain of salt since he gave me the diameter by feel. Although his feel might be very accurate since he works with radiators all the time.
More cores might mean less vanes, but it also means more cooling for some reason. My Camaro has a 4 core instead of the factory 3 or 2 core because of it's large engine. It has more cores in the same "box", and more cooling.
I figure it is the more surface area of the tubes that give the additional cooling. Additionally, I believe the flow rate is the same (determined by pump and RPM, but through a larger cavity (the radiator), therefore the velocity of the fluid is slower, giving more time to cool while in the radiator.
We will have to wait for results on my Pagode. It should be installed and running within 2 weeks ... or I'm not going to be too happy. I intend on taking it to PUB.
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I figure it is the more surface area of the tubes that give the additional cooling. Additionally, I believe the flow rate is the same (determined by pump and RPM, but through a larger cavity (the radiator), therefore the velocity of the fluid is slower, giving more time to cool while in the radiator.
Makes a lot of sense to me.
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James Howard's assessment is one I heard: more cores=less air flow.
I'm a bit curious as to ... the Tigris aftermarket didn't work well either on Bob's car.
Michael, this straying somewhat from your original question, but in the interest of fairness I want to say my Tigris radiator works great.
I had owned my car for about 3 weeks when I decided to attend 2005 PUB. On the way home, there was construction and stop and go traffic and my car overheated to the point of stalling (no place to pull off). Spent the night in Greenfield Indiana and then went home via secondary roads. Bought the Tigris and the temperature has never been higher than (estimated) 190 deg F. My car is at Blackforest (still) so I cant check if Tigris added an extra row, but I do know he used the original top and bottom tanks. Does that tell us?
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Gus--
That is an interesting question, and the kind of experiences I was hoping for. Tigris is supposed to be all new, not a re-cored original. Bob Possel had a few minor fit issues, easily resolved, but the fact that he had cooling issues bothers me. It also bothers me more that a recore with his original parts didn't work either. It does not surprise me that Gernold would sell a proven solution, but I'm curious as to what caused the cooling "failures" on Bob's car.
I can easily go to any number of places here for a recore. Gernold's core exchange program is good. But if there is something that your average or even specialty radiatior shop doesn't know about our radiator, that's the real question.
I do believe the Tigris is a 3-row unit. The guy does not maintain a website or email thus details are hard to come by other than verbal and from actual buyers.
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Gus--
That is an interesting question, and the kind of experiences I was hoping for.
My top and bottom tanks are the originals fitted with a 3 core core. Side metal is reused also.
Sorry we have to wait to see how well or not well it cools.
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Hi Mike,
Not sure exactly why the local Memphis shop (supposedly best in Memphis) didnt redo my OE radiator to an efficient HE radiator.
Gernolds price can be reduced if you provide him with a good, reusable OE radiator as an exchange. When I sent him mine (the one redone by the local shop) and he looked at it, he said that it was junk... So the local shop, which charged me $600 bucks basically gave me back a junk radiator. This is a shop in Memphis.... The bottom line, at that point I wanted a "sure thing" and Gernold knows a "sure thing" and I trust him!!!!
You have many options and others may not have the same bad luck that I had with aftermarket and local shops. Again, if you want to get the real deal first time, deal with Gernold.
Regards,
Bob
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Gus--
I believe the Tigris is a 3-row unit. The guy does not maintain a website or email thus details are hard to come by other than verbal and from actual buyers.
Michael: Maybe considering a Tigris unit is moot. I had quite a few conversations with the principal in 2005 and he told me my radiator was probably the last one he would sell. There was a certain minimum run from his fabricator: He needed one and sold the rest, mine being the last of that run. May have figured out it wasn't worth the hassle to do any more. Of course if you have more recent information, they may still be available.
Gus
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I just re cored my 111 radiator. While not exactly the same size as a 113, probably similar and mine was a two core.
I went to a very highly recommended place here in Dallas that everyone uses hands down and have been in business since the 50's. While I currently have not experienced any cooling issues with my 111, I am being proactive and don't want a warped head. I am just wanting to upgrade my radiator and increase it's cooling capacity.
He gave me two options, both three cores. 1) is an exact fit three core that according to the shop, will significantly increase the cooling capacity over the two core. 2) Is a "racing" three core that is about 1/2" narrower but yet is more efficient and cools better. Both were the same price. In order to get more cooling with less width requires that core to be more delicate, not as long lasting or something. That bothered me, so I went with the exact fit which will look better anyway.
I got them to NOT to paint the radiator afterward for a couple of reasons. 1) I wanted to check the solder work and general rebuild quality. 2) I have never liked the paint they use and they generally aren't concerned with a quality paint finish.
I will use other radiator approved paints myself to get the OEM look. I won't be able to test the new radiator for a month or two. When I do, I will post my experiences from a good hot Texas summer day! I'll post some pics of the finished, but not painted radiator soon.
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...thanks for the insight. We seem to have some recores but more with them "not installed".
your comment brings the question, what is the proper finish? gloss? semi gloss? somewhere in between?
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Both my oil cooler (W111) and radiator had the same black gloss. The oil cooler is probably original, the radiator I wouldn't think so. But the gloss level was about the same as other black paint on the rest of the car.
I found a powder coat black that has the exact same gloss as the rest of the original black parts on the car. It is made by Caswell and called "Black Cat" and they claim the gloss to be 60%. The MB black gloss is not semi-gloss but not satin either, somewhere in the middle. The black cat is that gloss.
If that 60% is true, you can go to a quality auto paint store and get the correct black paint mixed to a 60% gloss.
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I have posted this picture many times on the forum so forgive me for doing so once more. It is a picture I took back in April/May 1969 of the engine compartment of my 6 month old 280SL. The radiator/oil cooler were semi gloss black with the oil cooler perhaps a little duller. Hope this helps.
John
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Well, I got the radiator out. All this was in pursuit of a new water pump, as this one is squealing a bit.
The existing water pump is the short version, with long bolts, making removal of the fan exceedingly difficult. Had to remove the battery tray, the air cleaner housing to get at bolts. Had to basically remove everything en masse and literally jiggle things around until finally the fan let loose, and the radiator came out.
Took the bulk of the afternoon to finally get it all out. But, the replacement will be the long water pump with no spacer.
Would be easier w/o the fan shroud, and would be easier out the top, but I'm not tackling the hood realignment!
There will also be a lot of cleaning going on prior to reinstall.
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Here are the radiator pics. Also a pic of the three row core. They used ample amounts of solder and flux to attach the tanks and side brackets. Looks like they did a good job to me.
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I had mine recored a year ago with the "high efficiency" 3 row core for $250. I also installed an electric pusher fan also and have not had any overheating problems so far.
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...thanks for the insight. We seem to have some recores but more with them "not installed".
Mine is now installed. It ran for a long time, in my garage, at over 80 degrees F ambient in my garage. Once warmed up the car stayed rock solid at 180 degrees F.
It is a 3 core re-core. It cost $315.65 in April of this year. Cosmetically, it is what I would consider a nice job, not concours, not over-restored.
I'm using the factory fan set up. Original parts.
My car only heated up, with the original radiator, in the very worst conditions (highway cruise, then shutdown to a crawl for 15 or 20 minutes at over 90 degrees F ambient).
I'll know more after I've driven during this summer.
ADDED ON July 18th, 2011. I have now driven it in the worst of conditions. The needle stays rock solid at 180 degrees F. Therefore, I believe I have better, or at least the same, performance from the cooling system with the new radiator.
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My "new" radiator arrived today. After Bob Possel's experiences, and other pieces of information, I decided to do a core exchange with Gernold of SL-Tech. A slight premium over a regular recore, but no waiting. He had to inspect the core I sent him (the astute will remember that Bob Possel's old radiator, was deemed "junk") and thankfully mine was acceptable enough for recore. So, Gernold will re-core mine, clean it and paint it and it will await another exchange with someone else. It would be a lot easier around here to find someone with a lot of experience in re-coring or rebuilding or even re-creating a radiator for a 1937 Ford, or 1957 Chevy, or 1972 Plymouth than our W113. I didn't think it really would be an issue until someone screwed up Bob Possel's radiator...
I trust Gernold's assessment and experiences. He found a local radiator shop in Maine that worked with him to do it right; do it "Gernold's way". Apparently the shop invested in their own core-manufacturing equipment which is most definitely NOT the norm; most places just do the clean-up and soldering, "and use this weird paint that never dries" (Gernold) and measure up said core and buy it from one of the few core suppliers that fabricates it for them. If you are lucky, you'll get a custom one. If not, you'll get "the nearest size" which is something I did wish to avoid. Gernold, as most you you know, has been at this W113 game a bit too long to tolerate poor work.
The radiator looks nice, painted by Gernold to factory spects. Waiting on a few more parts from Dave Gallon, and then I can complete the chore of putting it all back together...
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I had my raditor re-cored a couple of years ago with the high efficiency core. It looks no different then originial, even the fin pattern is the same/close to originial. I did not have a overheating problem before, just wanted to get the best for my money. Still have no heating problems. Glad it did it to the high efficiency core.
Bob
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Hey guys, just wanted to share a partial experience with this radiator thing, mine has 8 dead rows (welded) and extensive damage... I am browsing the local market for a replacement core and I want it to be BEHR and nothing else. Any competent radiator shop can exchange cores with mine.
While searching for 7 days, I found a Mercedes 116 radiator which, if I am not mistaken, and using a measurement tape, has the same width, length but a slight different height than mine (the other one is higher by 3/4 inch or so). My car is an auto with the cooler at the bottom of the rad.
The other merc's part number rad was 1165011501. I didn't buy it because it has some damage to it, I will keep searching for another one until I find it and confirm my findings...
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Not sure this technology is affordable for our application. You may have heard of microchannel parallel flow condensers. This company uses a similar technology for radiators. Users today include Indy cars and the Up Armored HUMVEE used in Iraq and Afghanistan. I understand GM is looking at this technology for their future hybrid cars. Greater heat transfer and reduced weight.
http://www.mezzotech.com/applications.html
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Well, I purchased the recored radiator on exchange from Gernold at SL-TECH. Thankfully my old radiator was in good enough condition for the exchange.
I've had the radiator in now for about a month. The first couple of weeks of operation were under extreme conditions, well over 90 degrees and some stop and go. Most of that was on the way to PUB.
The normal operating temperature isn't moving much which is an improvement over the old radiator. I'm generally at the 180 degree mark. Under the stop and go and high ambient temperatures, the temperature rises to a needle's width above, but not more than than.
It was the right thing to do at the right time. What precipitated the action, however was a noisy water pump. That was changed as well, and the noise on that went away too.
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Michael - do you know what condition would cause the radiator to be not suitable for exchange?
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A radiator recore involves unsoldering the upper and lower parts--the tanks--disposing of the bulk--the core--and putting it all together again.
If the tanks are really dented, beyond a reasonable effort to repair (such as if the radiator was dropped, large stone damage, etc) or anything like that, there will be an issue. I would guess severe damage to any of the fittings might be an issue. Remember, the old radiator coming in get recored and the next buyer is going to want one as good looking and as well performing as the one that just left...
Mine looked pretty nasty but it really was just the finish. Gernold says (and I had to laugh) that most radiator shops paint the radiators with "this paint that never seems to dry". He doesn't know what it is but he uses automotive paint.