Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Drive train, fuel, suspension, steering & brakes => Topic started by: amg65ri on April 30, 2011, 17:40:40
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Got the car running. Engine = Check Brakes = Check Wipers = Check. Power = where did it go???
Not sure what is the issue, but I think it could be timing or the fuel injection...
Here is what I know...
Facts:
1:replaced, fuel filters, cleaned tank, new fuel, and hoses.
2:replaced plugs, wires, cap and checked points (working)
3: Changed oil, coolant, tranny fluid and diff.
4:Car idles, revs to 4k smoothly and starts/shuts off perfectly.
Issues :
Car has no power when clutch is let out, especially up any slight incline. I can get it to drive in first 2 gears and reverse but not much more than 20mph.
RPMS drop and it feels like an ebrake is on. (ebrake is not on, car rolls easily) i am not sure what to test first.
1:Timing?
2: Compression?
3: Clutch?
any help or experience would be greatly appreciated... car has sat garaged for years so it could ba a number of things...
ben
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Sounds like the rack in the IP may be stuck. Remove the round access cover in the front end of the injection pump and check to see if it moves back and fourth. Do you need more information on this procedure?
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Hello Joe,
Thanks for the suggestion. I am new to these cars so any help would be great.
UPDATE://///
I removed the 6 lines that go to the injectors (removed the Injector pump side connections)
I quickly found that the line numbers 1 & 2 flow a small amount of fuel when the car turns over (1 & 2 being the closest to the firewall) 3,4,5, & 6 produce no fuel from the top.
I believe that my lack of power was due running on 2 cylinders.... What should I do next? I am off to get a few 4mm bolts to thread into the rack cover on the front of the pump to see if i can move it.
next stop home depot.....
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Your car won't run on two cylinders - it would stall. You did say it runs smoothly up to 4,000 RPM so I don't think it's the pump. It would miss fire due to a lean condition as the fuel ratios would be all messed up.
I half supsect that both your vacuum and mechanical advance is stuck inside of your distributor. The engine will start and run well and might even idle well. If the pump isn't working right it would show up as a miss even at idle. In this case, as soon as you increase RPM's the engine will fall flat without timing advance. It will rev up to a certain point and will not go much higher - it won't matter how much throttle you use or how long you hold it open because that's all you'll get.
Try moving the rotor to see if it will move and if it springs back. If either the vaccum or mechanical advance it working the engine will run but will lack real power and it will use a lot more fuel. When both are not working you will have a condiction similar to what you have right now.
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Your car won't run on two cylinders - it would stall. You did say it runs smoothly up to 4,000 RPM so I don't think it's the pump. It would miss fire due to a lean condition as the fuel ratios would be all messed up.
I half supsect that both your vacuum and mechanical advance is stuck inside of your distributor. The engine will start and run well and might even idle well. If the pump isn't working right it would show up as a miss even at idle. In this case, as soon as you increase RPM's the engine will fall flat without timing advance. It will rev up to a certain point and will not go much higher - it won't matter how much throttle you use or how long you hold it open because that's all you'll get.
Try moving the rotor to see if it will move and if it springs back. If either the vaccum or mechanical advance it working the engine will run but will lack real power and it will use a lot more fuel. When both are not working you will have a condiction similar to what you have right now.
I understand your point. The rotor and cap do work though. The advance also seems to be fine... I can also confirm though that only 2 of the cylinders are getting fuel by watching the pump only pump from 2 of the lines.. I have attached a link of a video for you all showing the car running on 2 cylinders. It just does. I started this way to prove it. I can also drive it around (but dont)
Repeat, the car runs on 2 cylinders...... http://www.youtube.com/user/RIH1USA#p/a/u/0/k_yF8J4q8iU
Please, let me know what i can do to unstick the 4 injector pump fittings closet to the front of the car. Not sure if the rack is stuck (it is pumping the 2 lines closest to the firewall)
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Yes, thread the screw into the end of the rack and see if you can move it back and fourth.
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Yes, thread the screw into the end of the rack and see if you can move it back and fourth.
Ok, got the thread screwed in and it appears it is stuck... I can move the rack about 1/8 of an inch in each direction...
1:Any ideas on what to do to get more travel?
2: Also how hard should I try to move/pull it?
3:is it ok to hammer it in and pull it out by prying?
4:What chemicals can/should i through in there to loosen things up?
sorry for all the questions...
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Hello,
A stuck rack is normally caused by one or more of the pistons in the IP being stuck resulting in a stuck Rack.
The first step is to remove all six injection lines on the IP. Do not remove the fittings in the IP itself yet. Crank engine at full throttle and watch to see which cylinders of the IP produce fuel. The ones that do not produce fuel are the ones that are stuck.
Get back with us for with results.
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Hello,
A stuck rack is normally caused by one or more of the pistons in the IP being stuck resulting in a stuck Rack.
The first step is to remove all six injection lines on the IP. Do not remove the fittings in the IP itself yet. Crank engine at full throttle and watch to see which cylinders of the IP produce fuel. The ones that do not produce fuel are the ones that are stuck.
Get back with us for with results.
OK, so the rack is stuck... Only 2 of the lines produce fuel. The 2 closest to the firewall produce fuel and the 4 closest to the front bumper must be stuck...
whats next?
thanks
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Remove the fitting in the IP from the four that do not squirt. If any are loose this is could be the issue. Otherwise, after the fittings are removed the round check valves in the pump can be pulled out (they are threaded on the outside. Find a fitting that can screw on them so you can pull them out.
Once the check valves are removed you can look right down on the IP pistons and cylinders. You can crank the engine, and if the little plungers (pistons) in the center do not move up and down they are stuck. Remove the fuse for the electric fuel pump before you do this or you will have fuel everywhere. Try soaking down the cylinders and pistons with penetrant. Gently tap down on each piston with a soft metal (alum. - Brass) or even a hard wood. A gulf tee can work if you grind the end nice and flat. Be gentle. Only the small piston in the center will move up and down. Some may move. Keep turning the engine, exercise the rack and keep tapping the pistons and turn the engine. If the piston is on the upstroke, tapping on it will not move it. So do not get carried away. if it does not move turn the engine and try again. Eventually they will begin moving up and down on their own. When this happens the rack will become free also.
If problems persist you may have to let penetrant soak or switch to alcohol which is best for fuel varnish.
I am sure you will see some results right away.
Caution !! During re-assembly the 19mm fittings in the IP must be torqued in at around 18-20 ft lbs. of torgue. No more or less!
Keep us up to date.
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Thanks Joe,
Just so I am clear. I need to remove the 4 stuck "A" 19mm fitings (from my picture below) and tap on the 4 pistons "B" gently after cranking the motor and removing the fuel pump fuse.
Questions:
1:How do I remove the part between "A" and "B"? I dont see any threads on it. Can you shoot me some specs on the tool or fitting used to remove it? Does it just pull out?
2:Should I remove "C" the access cover and spray alcohol or penetrating oil in here?
thanks
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Yes remove the fittings "A". Removal of the cover"C" is not needed at this point. The check valve inside has a fine metric thread on its outside. The check valves just pull out. I nave a clutch hydraulic hose which has the same thread from one of these cars. However if you go to a harndware store and get a brass fitting which will is close, it will thread on one or two threads and can be used. The threads on the outside of the checkvalve are only there for its removal, so you do not have to worry about them getting a little damaged. You can also gently use a couple of small screw drivers on each side to gently pry them loose and out. B in the picture is actually the cylinder. The small cylindrical piston is in its center and has a divit in its top. The piston is only about 5mm diameter. When the piston is stuck, the cylinder may move up with it when the engine is turned. The cylinder is "keyed" in a set position. If the cylinder does move up with the piston, the cylinder must be kept oriented in the same direction and tapped back down. You will see the vertical slot in the side of the piston which is keyed to a pin in the IP.
OK, as the engine turns the pistons should move up and down. The cylinders B should stay put. Also,,,,,,,,,,when the rack or linkage is moved the little piston in the IP actually turn or twist also ! ! When rust or varnish causes a piston to get stuck the piston will not twist and this is what causes the rack not to move. A stuck piston will usually move to the top of its cylinder B then stay at the stop instead of moving back down when it should. The tapping on the piston will cause it to return to the cam below. A spring normally does this. But if the spring cannot overide the rust or varnish the piston sticks at the top. Take your time use lots of penetrant or solvent. Be gentle, because if the piston is resting on top of the cam lobe it will not tap down until the engine is turned and the cam lobe below in the IP, is down. Watch for a cylinder B moving up it will need to be set back down. Eventually things will start working on their own. It is important to torque the fittings "A" dpwn when finished to 19 -20 ft. lbs. The cylinders in the IP must be keyed and oriented correctlyif they have moved upward before torquing the fitting down.
Keep us up to date.
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Joe,
Thanks for the help. i managed to free a few more of the pistons ( i think because as I tap them down they do come back up... I am up to 40 golf tees on the first Piston (closest to front of car...) though :( not sure if it will ever go down.... also the rack will still not move....
I did manage to get alot more power out of the car. but i know it cant be correct if one of the pistons is still stuck..... i have soaked and reassembled many times over the past few days.... still frozen a bit... not sure if I should just wait...
here are some pics... some are a few days older when I was cleaning out the fuel system.
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Here are the Ip dissasembly pics... I wish I could get the first piston to go down... i think it is seized.... if I try to fill the chamber with penatrating fluid is just leaks into the main fuel supply.... any ideas?
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Maybe try a more potent penetrating oil? ATF/ acetone mix, Kroil, etc?
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Hello,
The engine will not run well at all unless the rack is free. The rack will not free up until that first piston is also working. Be sure to turn the engine to a different position since the piston may be at the upstroke when you attempt to tap it down. You may have to find a brass rod to tap with. The wood may not do the trick on a tough one like that. You are close to success. Keep at it.
From the pictures I cannot see the inside lower rubber seal in your oil filter canister? Make sure it is there also, make sure the upper seal is (above the filter) is up in the filter holder. Look in the tech manual for a good break down.
It looks like you are using a domestic after market oil filter. They are usually about an 1/8" shorter than the original oil filter They will not seal correctly when installed and dirty oil will leak past the oil filter.
Keep us up to date.
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Your IP looks very "crusty" inside. Be sure to blow away all the dirt etc. with a little compressed air before re-assembly. Yes, find a soft metal rod (aluminum or brass) to tap the piston. Be mindful that you may have to turn the engine before the piston will go down. Be gentle. Try tapping, turn engine, try tapping turn engine, repeat as needed. You may attemp[t to move the rack in and out, this can help a lot.. You can tap the rack back then pry it fworward using the threaded screw. You will see things start to work. Once you get any movement at all the penetrant will go to work on the stuck parts. Also soak those check valves in a little penetrant before re-assembly
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Joe, I'm learning so much from these posts! Is the process similar for the 220SEb coupe and Adenauer injection pumps? I have both those cars but they have been sitting for a few years so I'm starting to get worried.
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Hello dseretklis,
Yes, very much the same. The main difference is that the 220SEb pump and the Adenauer pumps use a different check valve under the fitting. It is a "cone and seat" type valve very similar to the one in the CSV if the W113 cars. The 230SLs also use this type of valve in their IPs. The Adenauer pump also has a leather vacuum diaphragm which controls the rack via intake manifold vacuum. Stuck pumps can be freed and cleaned up in the same manner!
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Wow. This great to know. I was always under the impression that an IP rebuild was in order once it froze up.
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Not to take anything away from Joe's usefull information but you may still need a rebuild even though the injector elements free up. Sometimes it's a matter of calibrating the pump but if it's been left seized in one place for years all of that rust can really mess up the fine tolerances inside of the pump.
You may be lucky enough to make it all work properly but it's not something to count on or expect. Think of it as putting off the inevitable. The pump is likely compromised to some degree and may run OK for a while. How long is anyones guess.
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Hello,
A major IP rebuild, depends on each situation. Severe damage from water and rust can result. The length of time and the amount of water involved can be the determining factor. Sometimes just varnish from dried out fuel is the cause of a stuck pump and no permanent damage happens. I like to use plain rubbing alcohol to clean fuel varnish. It works better than any other solvents and cleaners that I have tried.
I free up IPs from stored cars all the time. Most respond and run fine. I know of one major IP re-builder who claims most IPs sent in for re-builds are functionally ok, and just stuck of extremely out of adjustment.
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Does today's fuel with ethanol facilitate rusting of the injection pump? Does sta-bil help in this respect?
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Ok Joe,
I got the first piston moving freely on its own and now the rack moves in and out freely!!!
The rack really does move in and out a good 1/4 inch + in each direction.... So after cleaning out all the crud.... i flooded the rack and sucked out all the dirt/grime a few times with wet vac and "sea foam" deep creep.
I might add that I had better luck with the sea foam deep creep than I did with pb blast... I also had better luck using a punch on the stuck piston than the golf tee's....
ok so heres what i did next...
1: clean out check valves
2: reassemble and torque correctly
3: remove spark plugs
4: turning the engine over I can see that the fuel is pumping out just fine.
5: next I lossened the fuel injector lines at the fuel injectors.
6: I can see the fuel making it to the injectors...
The car will run for about 2 minutes if i start it with some starting fluid. I am not sure what is wrong yet.
Perhaps I need to remove the injectors and clean them? any ideas?
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Hello,
Does it accelerate at all ? You may be running into the issue with the WRD at this point. Try to do a split linkage test on the engine before it shuts down. This will tell you if you are going lean or rich.
Congratulations on your progress !
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Joe,
thanks for all your help so far!!! I have got the car running for as long as I want... It takes 3-4 secondes to start when warm, but I am able to drive it on the street and I filled it up with gas today!!! i shut it off at the station not knowing if it would start again... it did!!!
I am not using starting fluid anymore.... I think it affects the oil, that and the fact that I think i was running gas into the oil, I am going to change it again...
I still feel some hesitation but the car is so smooth at 60mph.... Also with the windows down their is harldy any air blowing around in the cabin!! Excellent enginerring....
I want to fix the stumble and iron out the starting issues. I do think the wrd has something to do with it... I noticed that it does extend and geive more fuel to the car. After a while of not being able to start the car, I removed the wrd and it started just fine, but I nneded to put it back or it would die....
Lots to still figure out, but at least I can drive it.... I will work on the wrd tommorrow... i plan on changin the oil and again in 4 days to see if I am running too rich....
thanks again... heres a pic after the drive today..... only 10miles....
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Hello, nice to know your on the road again. You may want to check the linkages also. Hesitation is usually a lean situation at low throttle.
Happy motororing !
Joe
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NEW iSSUES....
The car wont start?
1:I checked spark... all plugs are set and great.... they are all producing a good spark (plugs are new)
2:Timing is set at the right area...
3:Throttle linkage looks good.
4: Tank is full (just got gas)
5: Fuel is making it to the injectors....
6: All 6 IP pistons are pumping fuel.
7: Battery is good.....
8: IP rack moves freely...
No idea what is wrong... Is their anything else that will stop it from running? Some sort of fuel cut off or something? Even if I put starting fluid in it it only running for a few seconds....
Is it not getting fuel? air? maybe its a solenoid on the ip pump? I have no idea.....
thanks...
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Did it die while you were driving it and it won't start or will it not start when cold?
The good news is once you figure this out, you will feel as good as you did yesterday when you drove it.
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It will not start when cold.... it seems to want to start... every few cycle it almost kicks over but nothing.... even starting fluid doesnt seem to help much... i have no idea how i started it the other day.... ???
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I know you say your plugs are new but how new? Did you replace them early on while working on the IP? If so you might want to just put in another set.
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ok, got another set of bosch plugs... still no luck...(plugs I took out seemed very clean although they only have 12miles on them)
Went thru the linkage tour twice... no issues... car will not start at all.....even with starter fluid it barely catches..
Could I not have the correct fuel pressure? Does the rack need a certain amount or is it just a flow rate? I do have fuel at the injectors, but maybe its not enough? is theior a pressure valve that could be wide open or in need of repair? I think I see something after the fuel line leaves the rack...before it goes to the tank...
(is their a carburated conversion kit? just kidding....)
car looks nice in the driveway at least....
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Just a thought -- is your ThermoTime Switch working?
I chased cold starting issues for a long time -- turned out to be the TTS.
Before that there was once a tip when LaurieMerc gave me (how's that for a name from the past? you old-time Dorian folks)...Gal knew her mechanic stuff...but I digress....
After cranking and cranking with no start, she suggested pulling out the fuel pump fuse, and trying it. It worked! short term until I discovered the TTS.
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2:replaced plugs, wires, cap and checked points (working)
Hello Ben,
You mentioned in your first post that you checked the timing and points and found them working.
Did you check the condition of the points and the dwell angle perhaps?
Did you change the condensor associated with the points?
If you have new plugs (NON RESISTOR) that are properly gapped for the standard ignition setup (0.7 mm), fuel going to the injectors and compression, the engine will start.
That is based on the points and condensor being new and properly adjusted.
Dwell angle should be 38° -1° +3° (meaning a range of 37° to 41°).
Also check the connecting post (or screw rather) going through the distributor wall. If the insulating washer is cracked or damaged you could short the ignition to ground and the result would be no spark.
I would recommend that you revisit the points and condensor setup and replace with new components.
Hope this helps.
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Hello,
A fuel pressure check and fuel volume check should be next. Most likely more contaminated fuel in the system? You can manually trip the cold star valve by touching a hot lead to the solenoid on the CSV.
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Hello Everyone...
I have been busy tracking down resto parts.... So far the forum has been excellent from helping me get this running to selling me parts!!!. I got used original bumpers, door panels, seat frame, leather seat covers, locking gas cap etc etc etc...
You all know who you are... Everything i bought was in perfect condition and i could not be happier... :) pics will follow soon...
Question:::
The car has been thoroughly gone through... points, timing , compression, fuel, IP rack, linkage calibration, csv... all electronics... It is all in good spirits and within spec (compression was all within 2-4 lbs!!!)
1: The car will start imeadiately after a night of sitting, but after its warm you need to crank for 4-5 seconds.
2: The car will eventually die when idling... You can drive it fine but it wants to die at idle... (fuel? air ? timing?)
3: There seems to be slight hesitation from the acceleration, and a bogging when under load under 2k rpms.. is this timing?
thanks
ben-
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Hello Ben,
Sounds like your car is going lean after warm up. Do you know how to do the split linkage test ?
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Try 'Engine Release' a product out of Quebec(Google it). Works where PB, deep creep, kano, mystery oil, etc. are useless. $25 for 8 oz. Worth it.
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thanks I will get "engine release" and report on it...
Car is doing great, or at least driveable... I have created a hack mode to get it operational.... the issue I have currently with the car is that cold start is perfect, but I need to energize the CSV for a second to get it to start again once warm...One would think that either the idle air screw is too open or throttle plate is open but they are not... I first noticed it after the car was warm. Even after driving for 10 miles at 60mph, if I came to a stop the rpm's would drop and the car would shut off.... starting was almost impossible unless i energized the csv or used starting fluid....which is not safe at a busy intersection. i rigged up a momentary push button that works great for now... (dont worry I did not drill any holes or mount this hack job) but I want to fix it...
I am very close to having this car be back in its glory.... any pointers?
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Hello,
Were you able to do the split linkage test when the car was warmed up ?
Also I would check the starting aids when warm. Do you need the procedure?
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It sounds like your car is ready for a trip to Arundel this weekend. Gernold will sort it out for you. :)
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If I remember correctly, the rack should move more than 1/2 inch. At least an inch???
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I figured i would give an update... The car is doing great.... or at least much better.. I drove it for the first time yesterday over 25miles.... I finally got my custom license plate....
"PAGODA" i was amazed it was available....
Only issue I have now is the WRD... i have found that it works great when cold, but as the car warms up is slowly kills the car. I think the rod that extends into the FI pump travels too far and is leaning out the mixture as it warms up... for now I disabled the WRD and made an adjustable version (using a mod from a fellow list member) I wil try and figure out the WRD after summer when I have more time to work on the car and less sun to drive it...
here is a pic of the plate!!!
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I'm glad you have it running well enough to enjoy this summer. Great score on the plate!