Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Drive train, fuel, suspension, steering & brakes => Topic started by: rogerh113 on April 06, 2011, 20:11:03
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Hello,
The starter has just become really slow - engine barely turns over and hard to believe that it actually starts. I figured it was the battery (Diehard) and took it down for a check. The charged it overnight and said it was ok. The weather has been bad here, so it ended up sitting in the car (unconnected) for two weeks. I went out to start the car today, and no change.
Is there something other than the battery that can cause this symptom, like loose starter cables???? I really need to get this resolved, even if I end up getting a new battery (Interstate this time). Any suggestions appreciated. Then I can move on to my missfire problem, and then finally enjoy some spring driving!!!!!
Thanks -- Roger
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Primary cable (the big black one which should be red in any other car, the + one) is often a culprit. Remove both ends, clean everything in sight, and put it all back. If the cable is good, the connections good, might be the starter.
Sometimes the cable ends start to give way...inspect them for integrity not just cleanliness.
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Have you checked the earth cable from the engine to the body,this is located LHS of the engine at the rear,one bolt in the bell housing and bolt on the frame.
Also check your battery earth connection at the frame.
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Yep, I did check all of the earth cables, and they seem fine. I also hooked up an aux wire earth cable from the battery neutral to the frame, figuring that it would get real hot or short if there was no other path - no heat there after I ran the car.
I will check the starter lead this afternoon or tomorrow. Hopefully there will be something obvious. If not then I will probably pull the battery again and have it trickle charged - then try a start immediately after I get the battery back.
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This is not an answer to your thread question but... I would go ahead and replace the battery now. First it sounds like you have been considering it -- and have already had it run down once. Second, if it is another issue, you will be doing a lot of cranking and stopping so having a strong healthy battery is essential. If you get the Interstate be sure to get the correct layout for our cars (24F I think -- double check.) I have a DieHArd that has been fine -- although it is not quite correct (its in backwards to get cables to reach)...
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Yep, that's probably what I will end up doing. I would be pretty unhappy if I tore out the starter and then found out it was the battery. The irritating part is that the Diehard is only 2 years old, and is under full replacement warranty. When I took it to Sears they said they could have it checked and tested in 4 hours. It would have been completed that afternoon. I called them the next morning and they were still working on it...... Not a big confidence builder, and then several hours later I was told it was fine and ready for pick up.
I did contact Interstate, and the application info for the 113 is below.
The correct battery for that application is for the warm climates it would be the MT-24F and for the cold climates it is going to be the MTP-24F.
Gary Parks
Customer Service
Phone:972-715-6831
Fax:972-587-3212
gary.parks@ibsa.com
Thanks -- Roger
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Can't you just use a pair of jump leads to the battery in another car that you know are fine while having your own battery out of the car?
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Interstate makes excellent batteries, but if you only use your car occasionally, consider the Optima battery. It is expensive but it delivers maximum cranking capacity and holds a charge much longer than lead-acid cells. I have only had the oldest one 5 years so I can't tell how long lived they are. Last year I took it out of the Pagoda and put it in the Pick-up. It spins that V6 to a start in under a second.
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It looks like my battery ground cable could stand to be replaced. I noticed that it seems a bit limp, and there is the sounds of broken, grating wire filaments when moving it around. Does anyone know of a source for this, or is there a standard available at Kragen / Pep Boys that is fine?? This is the cable that bolts to the battery terminal and the body opposite the coil.
I did crawl under and look at the starter connections, and they feel and look fine (from what little I can see). I assume that the starter has to be dropped to access the connections (long time ago since I had the starter out).
The optima looks like a great battery, but I do drive the car weekly all year (this is California, after all), so the Interstate should be fine. Maybe the cable issue will resolve my problem.
thanks for any suggestions on a source for the cable I need....
Regards -- Roger
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Ordered the cable from Miller Benz, so set on that account.
Thanks -- Roger
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Roger,
Apart from cable and battery, you could also address this problem
by upgrading the electric starter to the one found on later 280 SLs. It is significantly more powerful and delivers approx. 1.5KW vs 0.8KW for the old one. I did this on my 68' 280 and the difference was like night and day.
Hans
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Hi, Roger,
I suggest you check the battery voltage with engine running.
If the battery is not being charged at optimum voltage, the battery will not fully charge up and you will get less then optimum starting .
Voltage should be between 13.5 and 14.4 volts with engine running.
Fully agree with Hans. The later starter is 'magic'.
Naj
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You can check the cable by using a good high quality jumper cable. Put one end on your negative post of your battery and the other on the engine, or better yet on the starter. If this helps you have a bad ground somewhere, next hook it to the chassis, if you still have the problem, it is probably a ground to the engine. Most times I see this problem it is the actual battery post connection dirty and or loose or someone using those crappy bolt on cable ends that never work very well. Very well could be the starter or starter connections though.
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I also agree that the newer starter is MUCH better. One of the greatest attributes of the newer starter is that it is smaller and much lighter than the earlier one. When you are installing one, you'll appreciate this!
I like original, but the new one can't be beat.
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Well, I finally got some time to work on the car. I got a new Interstate battery installed, and no improvement. I then got a jumper cable and connected one lead to the battery neutral and one to the fixing bolt for the starter - still no improvement. During the testing process, the starter did not engage and all I got was a loudish tick. I tried a couple of times, and still got the tick. Then I engaged 1st gear and released the brake to let the car drift back a bit and move the engine a bit. The starter then engaged, although slowly again.
Is this a sign that the solenoid is shot?? I reckon that I am going to be pulling the starter in the immediate future, and any guidance on diagnostic approach would be appreciated. I would prefer to pull and test as few times as possible, as I do remember it as being awkward and the starter heavy. I also have a spare starter with solenoid from a 250SE up in the attic, so spare bits are available. The starter (when working) was more than adequate on the car - is the 280 so much more wonderful that I should consider getting one of those. Also, I have vague memories of trying to install the 250 starter on the 230, and being unsuccessful because the threading of the attachment holes was different. Is that correct or are they identical??
Thanks for any guidance -- Roger
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Roger,
If you have ruled out the cables and connections (battery was deemed OK by replacement) and the starter is the issue, this is relatively easy and for the most part, not that costly a project (compared to others you might run across)
You have three options.
1) Remove starter and exchange for a rebuilt. Simple, and easy. Non-OEM rebuilts are less than $100. Bosch run less than $200, sometimes less than $150 depending on where.
2) Take yours out and take it to an auto electric place for a rebuild. Will probably be less than $100 to rebuild yours.
3) Try to fix your own starter yourself. You'll need some time, a source of parts, and the the ability to bench test it.
I've done 2) and 1). The first attempt was a rebuild; problem was, the solenoid replaced was not a Bosch. In my particular case the darn thing tested fine on the bench, but in situ would not disengage. Did that twice. Took the rebuilt out and exchanged for a factory rebuilt.
You might have better luck than I did, but I'd only use the Bosch parts.
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Sounds like the factory rebuilt is the way to go, since I don't want to spend months fussing with this. The question is whether the 280 starter will fit. I looked at the 230 starter on there now, and both attachment bolts screw into the starter (both top and bottom). On the 250 starter I have, the attachment bolts only screw into the top of the starter (threaded) and the bottom hole is for a through bolt. I assume that I can use the 280 starter if I manage to find an appropriate size / length bolt, lock washer and nut, and attach the bottom of the starter that way?? Is that the way the 280 starter normally attaches, or does the attachment bolt go from front to rear and screw into the tranny housing?? If the standard is for a through bolt, then at least I will be able to source one (hopefully).
If anyone knows for sure, can you please let me know. I need to figure out what approach to take before I can source a rebuilt starter, and I have time now so I would like to get after it!!
Thanks -- Roger
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The newer starter does have a different bolt arrangement. All you have to do is find a longer bolt and use a nut with a flat washer and lock washer on the backside. Don't put the split lockwasher directly on aluminum as it will damage the aluminum housing.
In a way, this set up is easier because you can "hang" the starter on the through bolt instead of holding it up and threading both bolts. I have a couple of spare Allen head through bolts at the house that I can measure and tell you what they are. You won't miss the old heavy starter unless you demand originality.
I believe there are different solenoid terminal connections on the new starter, but I don't remember how they connect.
I hope this helps.
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No, not that much of a stickler for originality. My car is a driver, although I try to retain originality if there is not a big downside. If you could let me know the bolt length, that would be great - then I can try and find one..... Are the revised solenoid connections a no-brainer, or am I going to have to change some connectors, etc?
I've been looking around for a rebuilt 230SL starter, and have had no luck so far - only the 280SL starter. My options are probably limited to that, unless someone comes across with an old one. Even then, the updated starter sounds like a real improvement.
thanks -- Roger
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Roger,
If I remember correctly, the connectors are the same but I believe there is one more socket on the solenoid that is not used. Hopefully someone can confirm this because it has been three years and my memory is not the best.
I have both the old and the new bolts that I used. The old Kamax bolt is 12mm x 75mm and uses a 10mm Allen wrench. The new ones I used are 80mm long. The 75mm is fine for threading into the starter, but just too short to engage enough threads in the nut on the through bolt. The boss on the starter for the through bolt is not as thick as the boss with the threaded hole.
The bolts are yellow cad finish by the way.
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Well, I replaced the starter and it seems to start just fine now (the newer starter is noticeably perkier). Thanks for all of the help and the bolt info. I do have a couple of follow-up questions...
All I could find locally was a grade 8.8 bolt for the lower through attachment. Is that adequate or should I order a better/stronger bolt for the long term (and a source would also be helpful - Mercedes Benz Dealer??). Fortunately, access for that bolt is really fast and easy, so if the 8.8 is a potential issue the replacement is no problem......
Is there any value in retaining the former starter (now boat anchor)?? Is there some way of recycling it or someone that would want it?
Thanks -- Roger
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I don't know the metric grades as well as the SAE, so I looked it up. 8.8 is equivalent to grade 5 and 10.9 is equivalent grade 8. I would think 8.8 would be OK for now unless someone knows for sure it has to be the 10.9 grade. If I remember correctly, in addition to the starter, these bolts also secure the bellhousing to the engine.
The starters can be rebuilt if you want to have a spare.
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I don't know the metric grades as well as the SAE, so I looked it up. 8.8 is equivalent to grade 5 and 10.9 is equivalent grade 8.
Hi Wallace,
that is correct. There is a chart with all the relevant numbers right here:
http://www.sl113.org/wiki/uploads/Restricted/Bolt_Grades.pdf
And way back on the old Yahoo site Hans posted these torque numbers for the different bolts in case someone needs them:
"In general, when one cannot find the specific tightening torque (moment) setting in the factory workshop literature, one reverts to the general ISO norm for torque. The following applies then [all in Nm] (Newtonmetres):"
Thread Class 8.8 Class 10.9 Class 12.9
M6 6 - 11 8 - 16 10 - 19
M8 15 - 28 21 - 38 25 - 47
M10 30 - 55 41 - 76 50 - 92
M12 51 - 95 72 - 133 85 - 159
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Hello Roger,
The hardware you have should work just fine. Hopefully you used lock washers so the hardware stays tight.
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Yes, I did use lock washers. Thanks for confirming that the bolt I have will serve well.
Does anyone need / want the old starter for a core? It is a Bosch 001 208 026, and I would guess original to my '66.
thanks -- Roger
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Hey Roger, no use for the old starter but what would be great is if you can share where you found the new starter, what P/N, and a ballpark price. I would imagine I might need one someday as mine is almost 50! And if you are really feeling frisky -- how about a how-to change the starter wiki. Did you so the work yourself? Just curious.
Enjoy the Spring -- maybe a SF gathering this year?
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Well, I guess I will go open kimono.... I actually had a spare starter from when I transplanted a 250SE engine into my 230SL. It had the same configuration as the 'new' 280 starter - larger than the 230 starter with the through hole on the bottom. I can't remember the specific pn, but given my web research it seemed that Mercedes had a fairly common starter across the fleet, and that the part number rolled often. I was working off the Bosch pn on the starter, since I could not find a Mercedes pn - maybe that was on the paper labels on the starter that were no longer even close to readable. That starter had been sitting up in the loft for the last 12 years or so, and I am finally going to get some use out of it!!
I did do research into a new (actually Bosch rebuilt) starter, and was going to go with Autohaus AZ. They have a good price, and I have successfully dealt with them for several years on parts for the 3 cars in the family. If this 'free' replacement starter has no longevity, I will go with the Autohaus alternative. Since I am working now on my missfire problem, I have not really had an opportunity to get it out for a drive. Waiting for a new dist cap and rotor, and then if no joy a new Pertronix......
Thanks -- Roger
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Oooooops,
Forgot - a local pagoda gathering would be great fun!! Hasn't happened for several years now, but the time we got about 18 cars out at Canada College and went for a drive. What great fun and a stunning sight!!! One guy walked up, and decided on the spot that he absolutely had to get a 113 - he was floored by the beauty of the car. Can't fault his taste.
Probably just need an organizer......
Regards -- Roger