Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: mdsalemi on February 14, 2011, 19:05:33
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In a few short weeks, I am taking a rather adventurous, 5-day, 250+ mile off-road bicycle ride in Israel. [www.riding4reform.org if anyone wants to see the route and info.]
ON THE RETURN trip home, I have made arrangements to visit Paul Bracq in France. I speak with him often but have not had the occasion or ability to see him in person. A slight bump on the ticket allows me a stopver in France. I hope to have some quality time with him and be able to turn out an article to be published in The Star later this year. He will even be picking me up at the airport...alas in a Citroen, not a Pagoda!
I will have plenty of time to think about the things to ask him; riding a bike is generally thought time for me.
I will certainly post some photos when I meet him, maybe prepare a presentation for PUB.
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Michael: Wonderful adventure. Ask him if the the design of the TGV train was influenced by the pagoda as both are very unique.
Last summer I was in Namibia Africa and met with Helmut von Leipzig, Rommel's last driver in Africa and I was so immersed in the conversation, I didn't take a picture of him or his pictures of Rommel's retsored Horch.
Doug Dees :)
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Maybe you could get him to sign our Pagoda Book & possibly include a forward by him !! ;)
Best wishes to Mr Bracq from us all. :)
Kemal
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When Martin Buckley of Classic and Sport Mag. went to interview him, a friend sent his Pagoda glove box door to be autographed by him.
Maybe you could consider taking yours?
Naj
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How about a signature that we could use for a decal similar to the Daimler one (but without the Star to prevent TM problems)?
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Naj's glovebox idea is excellent. What an amazing thing to have. I suppose you'd need two. The signed one, and the one for the car.
But whilst you're with him, Michael, I'd love to know how someone could design such a beautiful car - amazing in almost every way - and yet make such a horlicks of the softtop. Ask him if he had a hangover that day.
Bloody softtop; softtop and window alignment; softtop corners; softtop wear on those random parts of the...softtop; closing the softtop cover; getting the softtop stuck; replacing the softtop. I was thinking about the chap who was concerned about the labour rate to put his softtop on a donor car. 4 hours, I think. 4 years after I did mine and windows still have a huge gap. Though I don't suppose they'll fix themselves. Must do something about that.
(This is probably the point where thelews steps in with the comment about an original softtop that still looks perfect. Bloody softtop. But I do love your car, John) 8)
Good luck with the bike ride.
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JimHow, my soft top hardware is untouched original, but the top itself is 36 years old, that would be a non-original, but correct OEM replacement for Michael's sake. The windows fit perfectly to the soft top and I've seen many a top at Black Forest after a new install and refitting of the windows that is also a perfect fit. ::)
Kinda crappy pictures, but you'll have to trust me.
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On the subject of signatures see if anyone can't recognise the signature actually signed by the great man on the side of a friends Fraser Nash Le Mann's Replica
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thelews--
Interesting photo #2 with your hanging hardtop reflected in the glass.
Some guys plan every detail!
Joe
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Jeez, I cook dinner for my lovely wife tonight (Valentine's Day) and look what the cat dragged in!
I'll have to agree with John thelews--I suspect most ill-fitting soft tops are those that have been monkeyed with over the years or replaced. However, all one had to do at the time is compare and contrast to what was available--like those on any British car...
I'll be sure to ask about the soft top design--I suspect that was more of an engineering than advanced styling department task
The label is an interesting idea...bringing my own glove box door is out of the question...car is in storage and won't be heading there until Easter.
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thelews--
Interesting photo #2 with your hanging hardtop reflected in the glass.
Some guys plan every detail!
Joe
That is what I rigged up to lift the hardtop, but it's never been up there, especially after the lifting mechanism on the top broke on the first try and the top fell back on the car (about 6"). :o Once was enough with that sh*t, no damage to the car or top. Here's where the top is now, and will stay until the car is sold, if ever.
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Hope you had a good time cooking the meal for your wife.
You're not alone, I do that almost everyday for my wife. Love it!
Hardtop and soft top fitments are all in the hands of the adjuster. Factory settings are lost over the years as the top is replaced, removed from the car, fitted to another car, accident damaged, tree falling on it, etc.
You get the picture. Do you see a 48 year old car with perfect door gaps after being wrung through a hard road life?
Just be happy there are adjustments to be made to fix that.
Michael, I am not sure if the glove box idea is a good one, as you will probably end up with a shipping container full of glove boxes to be autographed.
A gathering or world tour of Mr. Bracq, visiting and armed with a couple of permenant sharpie pens would be best.
That way none of us will gripe about the loss of the perfect glovebox fitment in the dash. ;D ;D
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I did not offer to take anyone elses glove box door... ;) and will not be taking mine.
I will take my "Carosserie Passion" book as well as another book I have in which he wrote the forward. Both books in French.
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Do you see a 48 year old car with perfect door gaps after being wrung through a hard road life?
Unless the car has been hit or rusted to hell, why should the door gap be anything other than what it was from the factory? My car has over 150K miles (is that a hard road life?) on it and the door gaps are excellent, if not what you would call perfect. I'd even submit, why should the fit of ANY non-wear items be different from factory if the car hasn't been hit, rusted or messed with by some fool.
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Actually quite simple John, though because it may not happened on YOUR car does not mean it does not happen on others.
Here are things that happen to doors: they sag. They sag because hinges wear. The door closing and locking mechanism can wear. The mounted parts, can, in a few decades time, loosen up a bit, changing the alignment geometry. Anything that moves, wears. Tighten thing us out of line, and that exacerbates wear.
So, factor in all the things that move on a door. Add a few things like someone, somewhere along the line, leaning on a door too much. Or, body flexing from improper lifting. There is no shortage of ways to slightly alter the geometry of door fit. Be thankful it has not happened to your car, but it certainly can and does happen to others.
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Michael - how old is Paul now?
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Actually quite simple John, though because it may not happened on YOUR car does not mean it does not happen on others.
Here are things that happen to doors: they sag. They sag because hinges wear. The door closing and locking mechanism can wear. The mounted parts, can, in a few decades time, loosen up a bit, changing the alignment geometry. Anything that moves, wears. Tighten thing us out of line, and that exacerbates wear.
So, factor in all the things that move on a door. Add a few things like someone, somewhere along the line, leaning on a door too much. Or, body flexing from improper lifting. There is no shortage of ways to slightly alter the geometry of door fit. Be thankful it has not happened to your car, but it certainly can and does happen to others.
That's a lot of opening and closing for a properly greased hinge. I DID say, it can happen when messed with by a fool. That includes, poor maintenance, leaning on doors, not greasing as specified in the maintenance book. A maintenance ignored car, or an abused car will show wear, no matter what the make. That's a given. A well maintained car, including replacement of wear items, should fit as factory. I've seen enough of them to know. The rest all have a story and it's usually a sad one.
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Paul Bracq - Born 13 Dec 1933
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On the subject of signatures see if anyone can't recognise the signature actually signed by the great man on the side of a friends Fraser Nash Le Mann's Replica
It's Stirling Moss - I have it on a rather large 1956 Monaco Grand Prix poster, on the wall next to me in my office right now...!
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Danesgate, you are correct below is an image of the great man signing a transfer sheet with my friend Rob van Wegen down under at Adelade a couple of years back, second image needs no explanation.
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If the car was perfect in design , we would not have anything to talk about or ask questions about. Remember the promotional video on the 230Sl which a man opens and closes the soft top with one hand and it drops into the compartment like a stone.
Mine does not do that so I think the original design was OK but years of adjustment and wear have changed things. Just compare it to an American car of the same era and the difference in design and workmanship is obvious.
My glove box fit to the dash is not good either and I cannot figure out why.
Doug Dees ;)
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My glove box fit to the dash is not good either and I cannot figure out why.
Doug Dees ;)
What's the problem?
This is original, not OEM, not NOS, not repainted, not redone. Just as it came from the factory.
Edit: I missed that it was YOUR glovebox and not a general statement about the glovebox fit. Most likely a previous owner or restorer screwed it up, that's the "fool messing it up" category of why things may not fit. Who knows when they tore apart the car what they might have done. Post a pic and maybe someone has an idea of a fix.
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If they built this car today exactly as it was built 40 years ago, knowing what I know now from this site and my own car, I would be one of the first in line to buy one. It is an exceptionally designed and built car. My hat is off to French design and German engineering.
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Good luck with the bike ride. Checked out the website. Looks like a really awesome trip!
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My glove box fit to the dash is not good either and I cannot figure out why.
Doug Dees ;)
I found Doug's comment about his glove box not fitting well on his 280SL interesting. Mine has never fit well either from day 1 and I just lived with it. I tried to adjust it early on but to no avail. The problem seems to be in the thicker (then the 230 SL/250 SL) lower "bolster" on the glove box door interfering in the hinge area. You can also see in this photo, a gap between the dash padding and the left heater control chrome surround. Again, no big deal. These cars were not perfect but they came pretty darn close. :)
John
PS This picture is Jumbo Sized. Stand back!
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49er,
Your glove box might not fit perfect, but everything else in the picture looks amazing super-sized, especially for a 42 year old original car.
I never noticed the 0, 1, and 2 position indicators on the ignition switch. I can't wait to check when I get home.
Hey, I believe my glove box fits better than yours (I'll check that too), would you be interested in trading cars. ;D
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And now back to the original topic: Paul Bracq
Michael ask him what he thinks about this: http://www.mbgrand600.com/Page230.html (http://www.mbgrand600.com/Page230.html)
Regards,
280SE Guy
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I believe he may have designed that under commission from Karl Middlehauve or one of his clients. M. Bracq sent me original photos of this car, as well as a 600 Cabriolet he designed that might be under construction, and was based on a 1965 concept.
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Your picture of your glove box has the same problem as mine. It protrudes on the left hand side
Doug Dees :)
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I can say this about that, in concert with the other thread going on (Faszination W113) about my visit to M. Bracq coming up in March.
I will, in the coming weeks, draft some ideas and concepts for discussion with the idea of first learning more about the man, and second, producing an article for The Star Magazine. As I mentioned previously, when I am bicycling through Israel the week before, I will be thinking of things to ask; places to go and things to see with Mr. Bracq in Bordeaux...places like the Automobile Club of SW France where he designed the Facel-Vega bar, and the various public sculptures he has in the Aquitane region. I will jot them down in my journal.
If he agrees to it, I will conduct some informal interviews. I will have a camera with me, one capable of HD video. (astounding what they can cram into a little camera these days--it is a tiny Nikon S6000). If I can "tape" the interviews, I will. I will try to get an understanding of the processes and politics of the W113 project, among others important to me such as the BMW 3-Series.
There appears to be, amongst the devoted here, some varying schools of thought on various individuals contributions to this W113 project. Some things are subject to discussion and interpretation, of course. Some things are facts. One of the facts is that Paul Bracq is an astoundingly talented artist. His work crossed over to sculpture and what is called industrial design. Until he was hired by Karl Wilfert, there was no such artisitic talent noted at DBAG; he was the first and that's why he was hired. Others whose names come up with our beloved Pagoda (and others of the era) were engineers. Nearly every rendering of the Pagoda from the archives is signed by Bracq. After DBAG, he went on to other industrial design projects and to BMW. He labored on nice, relevant, but uninspired interiors for the final 20 years of his career at Peugeot; few interiors ever get noted as "stunning designs". During this time his creative energies were spent painting and sculpting as this is what artists do. Today, retired, he works 7 hours each day in his studio, painting and sculpting. His wife Alice is a talented and gifted artist as well, concentrating mostly in paintings and portraits. The genes were passed on: son Boris is a busy industrial designer in Bordeux, and daughter Isabelle is a fashion designer for Armani in Milan. I have amassed a large historical perspective of his work from throughout his career that he has shared with me. A print of his rendering of the first new generation S-Class (a Bruno Sacco design) hangs in my family room; I did this as a defiant action to his comment in a recent interview that people don't have pictures of cars in their living rooms! Ha! I do! (Color matches the tile fireplace so it was OK with the wife. ;))
Is, or was he a bit more "flamboyant" than say, Friedrich Geiger? Of course. But what's the point? Are there many flamboyant (assuming that is the correct adjective) engineers? Those known for automotive styling, and industrial styling, are welll known for being a bit flamboyant. Think Raymond Loewy; he's been dead for more than 20 years, and he still has a website! Think Norman BelGeddes, and Buckminster Fuller. In the automotive design arena, you don't get more flamboyant than Bill Mitchell and Harley Earl; you would not know their names if they were not.
Anyway, it is quite interesting all the online and offline things and questions and related that people are sending me. All I can say is I'll take everything under advisement. It would be a bit bold and assuming of me to think I would unveil, 50+ years later, any really new, revealing, or other information--but I'll certainly try to get a new perspective on things. I do hope to enjoy my time with Mr. Bracq, see all the things he tells me about, and finally meet the man who was at least, part of a team that styled what I think are some of the most beautiful and timeless automobiles of all time. I feel quite fortunate that he is "still with us" and that I will have this opportunity.
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Michael. I know you aregoing to be under lot of pressure with this interview with Paul Bracq. Can I send you his book and do you think he world sign it. I t would be nice if he could get a pack to sign to send with each copy of the W113 Pagoda book you are doing.
Sincerely your friend in California
Bob & Sharon Geco
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Sorry Bob--under a lot of pressure to keep weight down on my trip...remember I'll be bicycling in Israel for a week, then on to Germany/Austria and I will be very space and weight limited on the airline and bike trips. I need to bring a LOT of stuff for the ride and ensure I can carry it all by myself on the rest of the journey...
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I can't wait to read your stories Michael. Im sure you'll have a great time with Paul.
cheers,
Joel
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Hi Michael
I would really like to know if he has access to anybody who has photos of the 113 assembly lines, etc. We really have never seen much in that regard....
Have a great trip, Tom
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Tom,
I will ask him, but I think that question is best asked to the archivist at Daimler. I have access to some people there and will raise the question soon.
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Hi Michael
I would really like to know if he has access to anybody who has photos of the 113 assembly lines, etc. We really have never seen much in that regard....
Have a great trip, Tom
Not the best quality picture for sure but this is from the US brochure for the 250SL
john
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Michael,
before you can pass through airport security you must finish this test: who is who? ;)
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Michael,
before you can pass through airport security you must finish this test: who is who? ;)
The young one with hair, dark hair, on the right, is Bracq. The rest are old dead guys. :'(
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Everyone,
Yes, I have been out of touch for a while. Despite the fact that you can walk into nearly any restaurant (that values customers, that is) in the USA; every Panera and Starbucks (that covers all the intersections not covered by CVS or Walgreens) and most hotels and get unfettered, easy and generally free internet access--the same is NOT true in Europe. Due to terrorist regulations, unregistered access is illegal. When I found access it was locked, or so costly as to be laughable prior to you crying. I had no time prior to departure to investigate 3G data coverage for the iPad. I came close when in Israel, as the Cell provider there provides a reasonable microSIM chip with unlimited 30 day access for a reasonable fee, problem is it is easier to find HERE in the USA then in Israel. The few free places I found in Europe and Israel had cumbersome access that even befuddled the amazing iPad I travelled with...but I digress. I am happy to be home.
My visit with M. Paul Bracq and Mme. Alice Bracq was in a word, magical. Exceeded even my wildest imaginations, of which I had plenty in the weeks leading up to it. The information from these two most wonderful people was coming so fast, in a combination of English, French and German that my brain (of limited GHz and main memory) is still processing it. To wit: sitting in his living room, surrounded by mountains of paintings (mostly of Mercedes), listening to Erik Satie (n.b., look up that name) on a CD and discussing the art of carrosserie was almost surreal. Walking the streets of St. Emilion with M. and Mme; dining in their favorite bistro overlooking Bordeaux. Can someone pinch me please?
Now, many have asked for details and photos. Many reading this have no idea who I am, or who M. Bracq is. So, if you want the scoop--send me a PM. I'll create a distribution list and when I deal with all my responsibilities here and get down to putting it all down on paper with photos, I'll send out a link to access the story--but only to those who request it.
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I've been lucky enhough to stay in some very nice, and expensive hotels in Europe and often find that wifi is only available in the Lobby or other common areas and then at huge cost. Bizarre when Stabucks is free (with registration).
You're right to be annoyed
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Michael, so glad to hear your trip and visit with the Bracq's was such a success. May I suggest, and of coarse it is entirely up to you, Joe and time, that if you are going to attend PUB11 that perhaps you may want to give a brief presentation to the group. Alternatively, maybe you can regale us with your exploits during dinner if that is easier. In any event I would be interested in details and photo's.
Cheers
Marcus
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Here are a couple of photos I took this past week in Bordeaux with Paul Bracq:
First is Paul standing in his studio. Surrounded by paintings--some in progress--and his collection of toy cars.
Second is Paul at his taboret (place for paint supplies), along with his cat, "Lulu". Notice the MBCA logo and information he has on the taboret. He also has an American flag hanging in the studio.
I don't know if it is visible on the reduced quality photos, but on the left lapel of his sport jacket is a stitched blue thread. It is more visible in the second photo. This blue thread signifies he was awarded the National Order of Merit, a distinguished French award given to only a few. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordre_national_du_M%C3%A9rite The award in Paul's case is for exemplary civilian service, specifically that for 22 years with Peugeot. There is only one national award higher, and that commands a red thread. (that award is equivalent to our Congressional Medal of Honor) When he goes anywhere, this is sort of a calling card that tells people he is a man of some stature, and respect is given. He is a national treasure. However, he is a man of elegant dignity and that alone would suffice. Further, he is well known in Bordeaux.