Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: Drewtee on July 29, 2010, 19:06:38
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I still cannot decide what is the ideal classic/ oldtimer. I believe i'm still in all three camps.
Today i sold one of my Pagodas and I'm already missing it. It sold for top money ( what i paid at a dealer) without advertising it, through 'word of mouth'. It was a very orginal car in top condition, the problem with that car was that whenever it was moist (great word) the car was not driven, so managed only 1000 miles in just over a year. The saying goes once it's gone it's gone. That car would have been a perfect car in a nice warm climate.
I'm left with 2 cars one restored (painted) but all original panels (well nearly) and that car is really in the same category. I'm too nervous to get it out in the wet over a long period and relax with it.
The last is a car which is not perfect but is still very nice (and to be honest looks as good as the other two if not better) . I haven't really used it as i've had it at dealers who have been trying to sell it for too much cash. It's mechanically great, been repainted and had panels replaced.
I think the 'not perfect' car is the right car for me (and my climate) I can keep that car garaged but use it in the 'moist' weather. if i keep that car for the next year i'll easiily get 4 k out of it.
The thing is, like a drug addict, i'm finding myself looking for the 'holy grail' once again (even though i haven't the space which should be another subject!!)
What's your ideal condition Pagoda and why??
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Interesting question. I have a driver it has been restored, had new panels, been patched, been resprayed recon engine etc. Drives nicely, cost a packet but i wanted it
so i got it. I am very reluctant to take it out in the rain ( these cars are very difficult top stop the water getting in somewhere) but if I arrange to go to
rallies or shows (European event even) then I must be prepared to put up with bad weather if that happens. I would rather put miles on it than have it sit
in a garage just so I make more money when it comes to selling - enjoy the car doing what is was designed for. Just my halfpenny worth ;)
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It's like the old question:
Blond, Brunette or Red Head?
Original low milage cars are rare and maybe the best if they're not molested or rusty. And, they're only original once.
Drivers are nice because you don't have to worry about them too much.
'' I'd rather drive a diamond in the rough than a rough diamond. '' ( c. Benz Dr. )
Restored cars might be the best though because everything will have been sorted out and a lot of 40 - 50 year old stuff replaced. Hard call between that and the one that was here last year with only 38,000 miles on it.
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My favorite condition is nice looking, great mechanically, comfortable driving so I can drive it as much as I like, rain or snow included and nothing that I know should really be addressed even if the casual onlooker doesn't spot it. My car has been like that for most of the 11 years I've owned it.
I've put more than 40 thousand miles on it. Like my other, newer cars, I don't really care about a sratch or small dent somewhere, it's to be driven and not a museum piece. So I guess it depends on why we own these cars: (1) own it to own and look at it, show it off at shows, enjoy taking it from 95% to 98%, fuss over getting an original emergency light or tool kit, or (2) keep it in sound condition, replace what needs replacing (never mind original panels) and most of all drive it.
If you can answer which of these two gives you the most enjoyment, I think you determined what kind of Pagoda you want to own. Me I am definitely in the 2nd category but respect anyone who prefers no. 1 and I believe Michael Salemi has found a way to have both in one car!
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Unless you want to worry about the car every time you remove it from the garage, a driver is more fun (IMO). Up until last year, I drove a 1970 280SL as a daily driver for over 15 years. Granted, I live in San Diego (Not a lot of rain, salt, or rust) and enjoyed every minute of it. I truely believe that because I drove it every day that it never developed any oil leaks. I have other Mercedes models of the same vintage that seem to leak if I don't drive them. My 113 never let me down, or left me at the side of the road.
If you are really into showing a car, I get not driving it and just have something expensive to look at. (Been there, done that). But the real enjoyment of owning a 113 is driving it. So drive it alot.
I still have the car, but as I get older and cranky, I'm sort of tired of shifting gears in California traffic. So I bought a 129 car with an auto as a daily driver. I drive the 113 every chance I get.
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There's also the thing about keeping the car in, at least, the condition you purchased it in. Preservation and all that.
So, I think we are saying a driver or maybe an older restored car?
The problem with a very original car is that once you ding it you have ruined that car. I've realised that I'd be happy for the other half ( who's not into cars) to drive the 'driver' as If she crashed it, it would be fixed better when I bought it.
So maybe for me it's down to the responsibility!!
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Its a tough question.
I agree with Benz Dr when he wrote "Original low mileage cars are rare and maybe the best if they're not molested" that is just fact. But for unadulterated use I would say the best for me would be a very nice original that may have been painted - and had perhaps restored mechanicals. Of course this would be IN ADDITION to a superb quality original. I still want the best, but another fantastic stablemate would not poise a problem. ;D
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Pagoda's are like potatoe chips, who can stop at just one....... ;)
I've always felt that cars are to be driven, so having a driver fits me. I'm sure if I had something unmolested and orginal I may feel different. What I have loved with my Pagoda has been to be able to drive it anywhere and not worry about what could happen. I'm not the only one that likes to see it (just love a young kid who yells "cool car"). Even when the work being done now is finished, I will still drive it to work, errands, etc. Would love to take in on a fun trip to the coast, but we'll see.
Rolland
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I have a 1970 280SL that I bought for $5,000 about 8 years ago. It wasn't too rusty but it had been butchered by someone who had tried to "Restore" it in the 80's. I drove it from snow to snow every day for 5 years and the body just started to evaporate. I sent it off to a friend for metalwork about 3 and a half years ago and it is about 60 percent done. I have decided that once the steel work is finished I am going to have the car dipped in E-coat(electrically applied primer) by a company in Detroit so when it is done I should have a pretty bulletproof body.
I am resisting the urge to detail every square inch of the car since my hope is that I will still drive it but my fear is that I will not let it out of my sight. It was really nice to be able to leave it in a parking lot and not worry that somebody might dent it.
I guess a few of us are in the same boat but for me I have always enjoyed driving and working on cars and not just owning them. I plan on owning this one for the long haul and I figure the unrestored suspension etc will give me something to do when I retire and my 15 Month old daughter is off to college.
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What's "better, original or restored?" It's whatever is better for you and your pocketbook.
These cars look pretty good even when they look bad...the elegant design seems to show through unless the rust has really taken over. There was a very original car at the recent gathering in Bedford NY. The car was purchased by the present owner's grandmother. It was a little rough but it was a wonderful opportunity to look below the wear and tear to admire how these car looked when original.
Both of the 113's I've owned have been drivers, one a little rougher than the other. Living in New York City has its hazards for cars. I'd be much to nervous to keep and drive a pristine car in The Big Apple.
My present car is a "Clean Driver" by my standards and fills the bill perfectly. For others, it may not be up to snuff and should be pretty-ed up...not going to happen on my watch.
I admire restored cars unless they have an "overdone" "too slick" look to them.
We each go our own way so we have a range of cars to be driven and admired no matter what the condition.
Richard M, NYC
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I would have kept the original. They're only original once, everything else is just money.
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I would have kept the original. They're only original once, everything else is just money.
Hi John,
You have some beautiful cars and your 113 is very original?
Can I ask what the climate is like where you live and do you get to use the cars, especially your Pagoda. I.m presuming you have nice dry weather so you can get them out always?
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definately a nice driver for me... I like to drive my cars.. i like to look after them too but primarily its about enjoying them... and a pristine showroom car would be no good to me as id never be able to take it out for a spin for fear of damaging or devaluing it..
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.........the simple answer is, do you want to drive it, or just look at it ?
CHEERS !
WITT ! : ;)
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Hi John,
You have some beautiful cars and your 113 is very original?
Can I ask what the climate is like where you live and do you get to use the cars, especially your Pagoda. I.m presuming you have nice dry weather so you can get them out always?
There is a lot of originality in the 113, but the previous owner of 37 years refinished components as he removed them for repair or rebuild. The car was repainted in 1975. So, the car is mostly all "correct," but, not all original.
I live in Wisconsin and can drive the cars from April to December. I try to put 1000 miles/year on each of them.
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Nice subject, does it really matter. Those fortunate of us who have a Pagoda certainly have a very emotional report towards the babe. I am in favour of sticking to the original design, but if an item needs replacement, I would not hesitate to get an original replacement.
Besides, if we do not keep our treasures fit and beautiful, they would soon look like those models without makeup ::)
cheers
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I live in Wisconsin and can drive the cars from April to December. I try to put 1000 miles/year on each of them.
Good that your getting use out of them, they're so clean I wasn't sure.
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There is something very special about an original car. I am the second owner of a 10,000 mile 1967 Ferrari 330 GTC. I also own a 14,000 mile 1971 280 SL. I have owned a number of national winning show cars but the originals seem to just feel more solid. In my experience, a good original car drives better as well.
ljg
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Mine is original except for a repaint over 20 years ago. I bought it in Nov 2008. This is my second summer with the car and I have put almost 3000 miles on it. It looks new from 15 foot but it is not perfect. I bought it to drive and drive I will.
Brad
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Mine is also a driver, it has a few dings and scratches which means that I don't worry too much about it (not the same as not loving it). Have thought about giving it a respray, but decided to wait a few years, use it as it is for now and then fully restore it (I've already started a savings account for that) later on. I my experience, they like to be driven and hate sitting in the garage :-)
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I've had both
definatly driver!
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I also prefer an original driver. The patina and smell of a forty plus year old car is special. Like a time machine. I fix what ever cosmetics flaws e.g. chrome etc to have the car in 'nice' shape but try to retain as much of the original interior as possible. Just don't like the look and feel of new leather and the newly restored look. Dont' look real....but that's just me. Different strokes for different folks....
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Personally, I like to drive my car every chance I get. I bought my car(66 230sl euro) from my father in law in 2000. replaced over half the floor pans and repaired the fender wells and frame rails from rust(myself). I've logged over 100,00K myself since I owned it & I try to do all the work myself. I do replace broken and worn parts with origonal parts but I didn't recieve the car in origonal condition so sometimes I have to fix it like I got it.I could not afford this car if I didn't do as much work as I can myself. I live in Colorado,USA & I don't drive in the snow so I don't know if it is a good snow car, it should be though it's heavy enough! I do drive in the rain and after I sealed up the penetrations in the firewall I don't get any moisture inside to speak of. I don't think that I would ever own a car that was for just looking at but I'm not against others doing it
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I have a driver but always find myself cringing at all the cosmetic flaws. I have thought about restoring it but I know that it will be out of commision for several years. I finally got it on the road again after five years so I think I'll just have to live with the dings and rust for now. It still looks good from 20 feet and I get a compliment or two every few days.
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"There's also the thing about keeping the car in, at least, the condition you purchased it in. Preservation and all that. "
To preserve the car you have to take care of it and having a nice driver would be better because the driver should be the one who will take care of it.
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Fishermans Ghillie Selke Enterprises (http://nzshop.ambisight.com/947a5599-9691-4d8d-adbe-a45ae471a9ed.aspx)
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Mine's a driver. I think it should win all manner of awards for originality and beauty, despite a restoration about 15 years ago. It turns out not to be that good a restoration either but I STILL think it should win a concourse event
But in reality it's a pampered driver.
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It's getting harder to find original, unmolested, never hit, never rusted, collector cars. Period! When you see an original SL (that's been well maintained),sitting next to a fully restored SL, you can usually see the difference immediately. There's nothing like the original thing.
John
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This is my first post and am happy to have found this forum. I am the original owner of a 69 280Sl that has recently been awaken from a nice long 25 year old nap. The car is all original and 100% complete and 70K miles on the odometer. After much nagging from friends and family, and locating a reliable mechanic, the car is back on the road again. We got the hard top off a few days ago and was amazed to see what great condition the soft top was in. Even the rear window was still crystal clear. Since we got her back from the shop I have put about 200 miles of driving the back roads here in the foothills where we live. What a joy it is:-) I will post some pictures as soon as figure out how.
49er
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IMHO, there is a fundamental fallacy with the question. Why does one have to be better than the other?
There is something nice about very original cars. There is also the very real issue that with the majority of parts original, some are going to fail at one point or another and that will be a problem. It causes you to not want to drive the car, because by doing so you will eventually, just by keeping it running, make it non-original as time and miles go by. In fact, the truly original cars are probably driven less than fully restored, if just to protect it.
Fully restored is nice--I have one--but it is restored. Depending on the level of restoration, you generally have minimized the worry of failure somewhere, but you also have a car that you can't or won't park in a mall parking lot, or similar. The most highly restored ones are trailer queens not really suited for any long driving. I drive mine around without undue fear of breakdown, but would never park it at a mall for example.
A nice driver is great--broken in, maintained, generally reliable--but I have yet to meet anyone 100% satisfied with a driver. The better the driver is, the more careful people have to be with where they park it. The worse the driver is, the owner is always updating that list of "what to do next", and having to prioritize because of cost. People who own them that have non-original work on the car, generally lust for some more originality. They look at those door dings each time they get in the car. There is always something to do, something to aspire to.
Each of these three "conditions" has their own merits and problems. I cannot say that any one is better than another, and think the question is flawed. If the question is asked simply on which car to buy, it all depends on intended use and $$$ available. If you want to drive rallys like Peter van Es, don't think about fully restored. If you want to go into car shows and win prizes, a daily driver isn't going to cut it. There is a place for all conditions and thus none is fundamentally better or worse than any other...IMHO, of course.