Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Drive train, fuel, suspension, steering & brakes => Topic started by: johnshenry on May 08, 2010, 15:32:19
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11:30 AM EST.
250 miles away from home and the water pump is letting go. Floppy and noisy, but no leaks yet. I have just been told that there are no MB dealers in VT. I'm in Stowe VT right now.
Will see if I can get one flown in, I have a decent set of tools.
Qs'
How hard is it to change the water pump? Any out of the obvious things I should know? I left my BBB at home!!
Ideas on how/where to get one ASAP? HAd planned to leave here tomorrow!!!!
Off to phone part dealers, will check back... thanks for any help.... !
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Good news! That's what the forum is here for.
First, your pump may last; is there water coming from the telltale hole?
Second, here is a list of the obvious things:
Before ordering the pump, read this post: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=8820.0
There are 3 different pumps. Obviously you need the right one!
Then read this one (it'll reassure you) http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=8756.0
The job itself is very easy, actually. You can drop the radiator and do it, but if on the road you may be better off undoing one side of the bonnet and lifting that off (having marked the position of the fastenings so it goes back on in the same place - you can always tinker with it later to get it right). It is more easily done by removing the radiator, and that isn't a hard job either. Note that you can loosen the rad and it will slide forward to give you a little room to work (less easy if you have a shroud).
If you wanted to enjoy your trip and leave it to a shop, any garage could do the job in an hour or two.
If you're going to remove the rad, I'd strongly recommend you/ the garage drain it using the lower drain hose and NOT the drain plug at the bottom of the radiator. Here's why: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=7663.0
Finally, if you're going to put in an order for the pump, you may want to change the little pipe shown in the photos.
If you have any more questions, shout.
JH
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Ok, I contacted Mike at Black forest and he has the pump. Fed Ex says they can get it here by 10:30 am tomorrow. Thanks for the tip.. I'll get it on its way out here then figure out how best to get it changed....
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So if it isn't leaking water, do I have a shot of being able to drive it home? I can grab the fan and feel a good bit of play in it. It is making a rumbling sound, kind of like a blower motor.
What risks do I take if I drive it??? Can the fan come loose enough to whack the radiator??
I have to decide ASAP if I want to drop $400 to have the new pump shipped here or not!!!
Thanks
JH
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Just got off the phone with Mike, he advises against trying to drive it home. I will process a Fed Ex and will get the pump on its way. Wow, Mike at Black Forest is a great guy!
JH
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$400!! For a $80-100 pump (and that's list price converted into Euros, so you can probably better it)? Is it coming by helicopter?
The decision about the pump is down to you, I think. Others may be able to give you a view on how long they last once tell tale signs of failure are there.
I drove mine for about 100km once it hard started to grumble. I took it easy and drove with the heater full on in an attempt to make the job of cooling less arduous. It was fine and not noticeably worse.
I suppose the down side if it seizes is that you could overheat.
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Ok, apparently FedEx's definition of overnight is not the rest of the worlds. Not possible to get it here for Sunday delivery.
Pump from black forest is $215, overnight delivery was quoted at $106, plus, etc.
So, still mulling over options.
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How far do you have to go? I think I'd start driving, take it easy, stop and check occasionally, keep a jug of water on hand, and at least see how far I can make it.
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I've written off trying to drive it home. It would be 175 miles. If I get stuck somewhere, then I have far fewer options than I have now.
I have order BOTH types of pumps from Black Forest, they will be here Monday by noon. I could not verify accurately the "long" or "short" pump, so Michael is sending both and I'll return or sell the one I don't use.
A town about 7 miles away has a bunch of service garages. I may have them do it. The thought of doing it in a parking lot outside in upper 40s weather, draining coolant, etc, does not appeal to me.
Now trying to get a rental car for my wife to drive home tomorrow, she cannot stay another day......
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Sounds like you have it under control as much as possible. I certainly understand not wanting to work on it in a parking lot - been there, done that, don't want to do it again.
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Tips for taking the hood off? Best to remove the hood to pivot bolts, or pivot to body? I will mark the position as best I can.
Tips for reinstalling? I would think leaving them a bit loose at first and moving the hood a bit to get the best position? The paint in it and the rest of the car is MINT, I don't want to scratch it.
Thanks...
JH
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Sorry to hear about your problem. I do not recommend removing the hood unless you have done it before and have an experienced helper. The potential for scratches and alignment problems is just not worth it. If you are going to do the work yourself I suggest buying or renting a pair of ramps and dropping the radiator out the bottom. I think the biggest problem you will find is removing the fan. It is a real pita and you need a long thin 13mm? wrench to do it. The rest of the job is straight forward and do replace the short hose coming out the top of the pump. I'm sure you can buy a radiator hose with the correct bends and id dimensions at any good auto parts store. Then cut it to length on site.
The water pump has an outer and inner bearing. I suspect if you have a fair wobble and no leakes your outer bearing has failed. Its just a matter of time for the inner bearing and seal to breakdown. Who is to say when exactly.
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I bet you'll get lots of different recommendations, so here's one more :) Drive it as far as you can and then call a tow truck. James had it right above, I bought a pump last year for $80. It's also hard to tell what you really have until you get a very good look at it. My pump turned out to be a short pump with a spacer vs. the long pump. I'd vote for trying to get home and if that does not work have it towed and call a taxi. Doing the pump right is important with thread sealant and while your there a new short hose to the thermostat housing and a new bypass tube. It's a lot easier to do when you have some time with the hood off. (I agree with Jeff above, taking the hood off on the road would be bad news but doing it at home with a little help is very easy. It doesn't weigh more than about 20 lbs)
Good luck!
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Thanks for all the tips. I now have a known European auto repair shop from my VW hobby 10 miles away who I will call tomorrow about doing the work. The hood doesn't scare me, I don't have to get it aligned perfectly to get it home, I can put rags in the seams to keep it from scratching paint. Again, trying to drive it home is not an option IMO. I'd rather stay here an extra day/night with the help of a good shop and just get it done.
I'll post again when get more details.
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Hello,
If your have an original style water pump, it has a plug where you can add heavy oil for lubrication. You can use a pump oiler to get lube into the water pump.
I bought a used Mercedes 500 miles from home one time. I intended on driving it home. After about 50 miles the water pump siezed and locked up. I lubed the pump via the "weep holes" and got it free, but the bearings were obviously damaged. Realizing that the fan blade causes most of the strain and load on the water pump I removed it altogether. The fan blade is just decoration when the car is moving and plenty of air is pushed through the radiator while the car is moving.My drive was nearly all interstate highway. I drove the car the rest of the way home with no problems. I carefully monitored the temperature gauge especially when the car was not moving.
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That's really useful information, Joe. Does the water still cycle through the jacket via convection if the pump doesn't work?
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I think Joe means to take the fan off and leave the water pump hooked up. I would get a quart bottle of Mobil One gear oil and fill up the pump bearings the best I could and drive it. Stop every now and then and squirt some more oil in there. I went hundreds of miles with a bad bearing on an AC pump once doing that. It was still working when I took it apart, the bearings were toast but it still turned. When It started squealing loud I would pull over and squirt some more oil on it. I personally would drive it like it is with the gear oil ready.
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Interesting idea actually. If the pump doesn't show up tomorrow, I might just have to try that.....!!
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Yes,
The water will circulate as long as the water pump is left in place and is turning. The pulley is re- bolted on with the belt in place with the fan blade removed. When the car is moving massive amounts of air move through the radiator. You would need to be cautious if you have to slow down or stop in traffic.
My thoughts on removing the fan blade were to reduce the strain on the damaged water pump bearings and to remove the wobling fan blade so it could not damage the radiator.
If the water pump starts leaking coolant you journey is near an end but can loosen the radiator cap to buy you a little more time on the road. Make sure you have a jug or two of water so you can get yourself off the road if you begin to loose coolant. Your temperature gauge is your best friend at this point, keep an eye on it!
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I was able to get two of the fan to hub bolts loose pretty easily. Does anyone know if the fan/clutch can be removed with the radiator in place? How long are the bolts, to you have to walk the fan out towards the radiator as you loosed the bolts to free them from the hub (if that makes sense).
Also, my car has the steel shroud behind the radiator. Does that come out with the radiator? Looks like it can't unless the fan/clutch comes off first. Or do you unbolt the shroud from the radiator, then drop the radiator out of the bottom, then move the shroud forward and drop it out too?
Lastly, is the oil cooler bolted to the radiator? Hopefully it doesn't have to come out with the radiator?
Thanks, still not sure who/where this job will be done tomorrow and if the part will even show up....
JH
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Also, where is the "weep" hole? I would expect at the bottom of the pump snout, but I have NO chance of being able to see that. Where can gear oil be applied to the bearings??
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Search for a hole on the body of the pump; it's the only hole there is. (Check out the photos of the links I posted you below, it may be visible there).
Not sure you can remove the fan and viscous coupling with the rad in place. A long skinny spanner (13mm??? can't remember) is the thing you really need. The shroud is held on by obvious bolts down the side and slips off easily without having to move anything. You can loosen the rad and slide it forward to get more room if not taking the rad out. Personally, I'd remove the rad, (from the bottom).
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I can't see how the shroud could come off with the fan and radiator in place, even if the rad is moved forward a bit. If I do replace the pump I will drop the radiator out of the bottom. I visited a couple shops in town here and they look to be OK for this kind of work, but closed today.
Gamble is if Fed Ex will deliver the new pump or not. No tracking # yet and my CC has not been billed, so I am skeptical.
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Between the cost of the rental car , the Fed Ex overnight and what the shop may charge you , was towing the car home such a bad option ? Just a thought.... ???
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Between the cost of the rental car , the Fed Ex overnight and what the shop may charge you , was towing the car home such a bad option ? Just a thought.... ???
Having the car flatbedded 175 miles (I wouldn't have it towed) would cost a fortune, even if I could find someone on short notice to do it. Believe me, I would MUCH rather do this myself in my own shop, but I don't have that option here.
Water pumps too, are one of those parts that you can never examine and determine when they will go. I just got the car last Nov, and spent a good deal of time going over (and under) it before this trip. Just the (bad) luck of the draw I guess.
As fate would have it, my wife ran into a friend from our town in a shop near the hotel yesterday, their daughter was graduating from a nearby college. So she got a ride home with them today, rental car avoided.
Maybe he silver lining is that I will get to drive the 113 all the way home myself tomorrow, instead of sharing the driving with her..........!
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Hello,
The fan shroud can be unbolted and moved onto the front of the engine so that the radiator can be slid out. The radiator mounting holes are slotted so by loosening them, the radiator can be moved forward slightly also.
I like to use the box end of a good quality 10mm wrench to remove the viscous fan clutch bolts. Remove three, loosen the fourth and slide the viscous clutch off. If yours is the short water pump with the spacer and long fan clutch bolts you will have a bit more difficulty, since removal of the fan assembly will require a little more space and all the bolts will need to be installed and removed at the same time.
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..........ops......there is a fan shroud? Am I supposed to have one on my 1970 280SL North American version? Needles to say My car does not have one, but it does not seem to affect the coolant temperature....
CHEERS !
WITT ! ???
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.........a fan shroud? Am I supposed to have one on my 1970 280SL North American version?
As I understand it, a fan shroud was fitted to W113's that have an Air Condition unit installed.
At what point in time these were introduced, I am not sure about
/Hans in Sweden
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Hello
There seems to be a lot of inconsistencies with the fan shroud issue. I know some USA cars that never had AC but do have fan shrouds? One of them is the original Dark blue with red int. 280SL of Bob F. (at PUB).
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My 69 never had AC but has the shroud.
FedEx confirms that the pump is on the truck, and I met with a young guy who runs a new shop in town and he will help me put it in. Hopefully all goes well. We plan to drop the rad out of the bottom for the job.
Does anyone know if the oil cooler is attached to the rad and has to come out with it? Looks like it is. I presume we just have to drain the cooler and disconnect the lines.
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Yes, the oil cooler comes out with the rad.
Draining the oil cooler with the bottom hose removed should serve the purpose.
naj
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It has been a few years ago now when I replaced my water pump. I removed the fan and the pump without removing the radiator or even the hood. Just took my time and used open end wrenches to unbolt the Fan.
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Well I made it home.
I was VERY lucky to have found a shop run by a young guy who just opened up his own shop (after working at a residential shop for many years) and agreed to let me "help". FedEx delivered the pump by 10:30am to my surprise. We had the old pump out in about an hour. About 2.5 more hours to carefully install the new one, and put everything back together.
Total cost of the adventure:
Pump $210 (I know know I probably didn't have to pay that much)
FedEx $95
Night in the hotel $129
Dinner, breakfast and lunch $60
Labor: $165
Tip for the shop owner: $40
My first real engine experience with my W113: Priceless.
What I learned:
Taking the radiator out of the bottom isn't really "easy" but probably still better then messing with the hood.
That shroud is a huge PIA. I came real close to just leaving it off. Trying to keep it out of the way while sliding the radiator back in from the bottom really sucked.
The oil cooler does not need to come out, the radiator slides along next to it and is secured to it by 2 carriage bolts.
Putting the fan/coupler back on the new pump is a real PIA. Trying to place all 4 bolts in the fan flange, fit it up to the pulley and hope that the pulley, spacer and pump flange holes all line up is near impossible. One idea I came up with was to put a rubber band around the bolts, just below the heads, but on the fan side of the flange to hole them there while you fit it up to the pulley/pump and get one of them started. CLEAN the bolt threads well, spray some WD40 on the threads so they go in real easy. That allows you to spin them in most of the way with your fingers. Once you get them in, grab the rubber band with a pair of needlenose and just yank it off.
I was on the road at about 3pm, 186 miles home, the car ran VERY well. Stopped and checked for leaks a couple times, temp stayed rock solid on 190 the whole time. No leaks.
Here's a pic for ya:
(http://hphotos-sjc1.fbcdn.net/hs565.snc3/30873_1430457968694_1450221986_1096619_6680580_n.jpg)
Thanks for all the tips/support/help. Hopefully this thread, like many others will help someone else....
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Here's a video I made of the weekend adventure:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWrgTciCMw0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWrgTciCMw0)
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Fun stuff (not the water pump but the video)... Your wife looks right at home in "her 280"... although I bet at some point about Sunday she was calling it "your 280!"...
Good lessons learned. I hate to bring up that we mentioned AAA on your pre-trip thread... but towing it would have made the adventure a lot less rewarding I think.
Still trying to figure out how you taped the driving footage -- did you hire an elf to stand on the bumper?
Glad you made it home safely -- Vermont is sure pretty.
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I believe that MB tows for "life", free. They also supply a small amount of gas if you run out. Of course, they would tow, flatbed to the nearest dealer. But at least it's then in a safe place until you figure out what to do.
Bob :)
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Excellent video and your adventure is priceless. That's the bottom line !!
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Well done video. I recall Tom Sargeant bought some kind of suction cup camera mount, looks like you got the same kind of thing. Too much body torque at the beginning, I had to hold on the the arms of my chair.
Now you can redo a similar trip "in confidence" during the leaf peeper season, right?
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Its a cheesy digital video camera and a $33 suction mount. Not real stable, but it is fun thinking of places to stick it on the car. And yes VT is very, very pretty.
Here's a video I did on an intra country Vintage VW trip in '09. I love the "behind the wheels" shots going around the rotaries in those little German towns. I drove a 1949 Beetle with cable brakes and bias ply tires over 500 miles in that weekend, between Belgium Germany and back again....
http://www.youtube.com/user/zackajaz#p/u/14/dZFSpNm-GH8 (http://www.youtube.com/user/zackajaz#p/u/14/dZFSpNm-GH8)
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That is a great video, now I wish I had done something similar for my drive across the USA to the west coast coming back from PUB with Art last year.
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........let's have a big hand for the "young mechanic that just started his own business". Reminds me on myself when I started out with my own VW repair shop: "The Bug Stops Here....!" Above and beyond the call of duty...
CHEERS !
WITT !
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great video - i feel like rushing out to buy camera mounts etc - but living in the uk it would probably piss it down or snow - fantastic well done
Reg
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........let's have a big hand for the "young mechanic that just started his own business". Reminds me on myself when I started out with my own VW repair shop: "The Bug Stops Here....!" Above and beyond the call of duty...
CHEERS !
WITT !
Yeah for sure. Clyde Kaiser at Auto Diesel Service in Stowe VT. Nice guy. His "shop" although formerly a service station, was last used as a pizza joint, and the floor is black and white linoleum tile. He brought in a new lift, parts washer, compressor, etc, build it from the ground up. I was most fortunate to have found him. We spent 4 hours and he charged me for only 3 (I tipped him well though).