Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Drive train, fuel, suspension, steering & brakes => Topic started by: ihaynes on April 02, 2010, 14:27:05
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Hi, thanks in advance for reading. My Pagoda starts ok but I cant get it past the idling stage. As soon as I give it throttle when in gear it stalls. Its driving me nuts. ian
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Hello Ian,
Could you give us a little more info on the car? Is it a manual or automatic?
Regards,
Andres G
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Sure, and by the way you look uncannily like me....well spooky!!!
its a 1964 auto. The minute I drop it in gear it floods...or thats what it seems like.
If i lock the handbrake in and keep the revs up it stays in gear ok...ie without stalling...but there is no power
ianh
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Did this start suddenly or develop gradually?
Does it happen no matter what the engine temperature is?
Let it idle untill the engine is completely warmed up, then pull a spark plug out and tell us what it looks like.
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Hi thanks for your comment. How long do I leave engine before its warmed up?
The car has always been a good runner except for the gearbox which I had renovated last year by a local Merc guy, retired now sadly. Drove it back and since then its had this issue. Plugs are generally wet with petrol after say five attempts to start.
ianh
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Hi, Ian,
There is a vacuum pipe from the back of the inlet manifold to the transmission.
Make sure its tight and not leaking air.
naj
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Ten minutes after the gauge hits 80 should do it. Does the exhaust smell really rich/are you seeing black smoke?
Naj's suggestion is a good one as a major vacuum leak would cause the symptoms you describe.
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Hi guys and thanks for your interest. Yesterday I had some time to get more intimate with the car. here are my findings:
When cold the car roars into life at the slightest turn of the key. It idles fine for a minute or so and then drops out, if I engage the throttle then I can keep in going indefinetly, foot off the throttle and it idles out to stall.
If I now try to start the car it just wont happen. let it get cold and we are back to square one.
No petrol coming out of the exhaust, Smoke is clear or when pushed with a tinge of blue.
Removal of a spark plug shows Black Dry deposits.
ianh
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My guess is that the problem is that the engine is not getting enough fuel. It is OK when it's cold and warming up because it has the warm-running device enriching the mix, but once it finishes, the engine starts to run out of fuel. You can test this theory by disconnecting the linkage rod that runs to the pump so that you can move the pump's lever without moving the throttle plate. As the engine warms up and starts to stall, push the rod down so that the lever on the pump moves just a little bit to give the engine some more fuel without adding air. If my theory is correct, the engine RPMs will increase.
There is more information on the Linkage Tour sticky on the "Drive train, fuel ..." page.
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I second that idea.
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sounds like a plan. I will continue to get intimate on Friday. I am almost getting excited!
ian
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Well playing with the linkage rod has changed the landscape somewhat.
It would appear as if when the air intake was increased then the revs went up. After fiddling with the rods lenths, there are a couple I now have achieved constant running and the car will also start when warm.
When placed in gear it still grinds to a halt. If I pop the car in gear with the handbrake on I can keep it going with the throttle. To get the car to move I need to brake with my left foot and throttle with the right.
I am so pleased to get this far, any furrther ideas greatfully accepted. Thank you all.
ian
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Now it may be time to focus on the CSS. This device helps the revs stay up as the car is placed into gear. It can be adjusted but first you want to confirm it is receiving juice and moving as it should. Here is a pic of what/where it is.
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The constant speed solenoid is activated by two switches mounted on the automatic transmission, one for reverse, one for forward. Only one wire goes to the switches, it grounds out the wire when in gear, the positive
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Hello,
Make sure that the WRD is not stuck in the cold position. If this is the case, the engine will start and run cold then remain in the rich cold running position. The WRD (warm running device) is located on the back top of the injection pump. It can be checked by removing the small round air filter (make sure the filter is clear). Next with the filter off, start the car cold and note the air rushing into the WRD. As the engine warms the rushing air should stop.
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So much for my theory.
It makes sense that the CSS is part of the problem - it may not have been reconnected after your transmission work.
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Well I removed the filter and I could hear and feel the sucking on a cold start. As the engine warmed up it did slow but there was still a fair suck going on when the car was warm, should this be the case?
Anyhow I can now put the car in gear and it does not stall. Having said this even thought it does not stall its just on the edge ie it wants to stall but has just got enough umph to keep it ticking over. To this end I made it to the end of the drive and back, did a u turn and got it back in the garage....it was stressful! The car cannot be used like this so the hunt goes on.
I will attempt the CSS issue next I just need to obtain a tester first.
ian
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No. When the temp hits 80 or so there should be no more air being sucked in. That there is meqns that there is enrichment with the engine warmed up. You compensated for this when you tinkered with the linkage, but now you need to fix the problem and re-adjust the linkage. Do a Search or look in the wiki and you will find lots of info on how to fix this - a very popular problem.
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Ah so the issue is the WRD is faulty. I have found some images indicating how to take apart and put back together.
I do hope this is the source, thanks for your response. Ian
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I should also have mentioned that the device needs a good flow of cooling water through it to work correctly, so be sure to check that.
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I think I may just have to have the day off tomorrow to action this plan.
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I am now staring at the WRD. Should I be taking this off. As you can see from my notes I am more novice than expert...handy but novice. Will i get in trouble? I know it sounds daft but after starting could I not just plug the filter hole?
ian
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If I start getting on your nerves I could surely understand it.
I just cold started the 230, sweet start pounding into life and the WRD sucking like a good one.
You can recognise when the engine hits warm as there is a marked drop in revs, but she still idled strongly. On placing finger near WRD inlet it was still sucking but when I placed it ocer the end to STOP air intake there was no change in engine idling. What I have noticed after removing the filter is there is now fuel dripping from the exhaust.... ??? ??? ???
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The WRD does two things. It makes the pump add more fuel which is needed for good operation as the engine is warming up and it adds air to raise the idle since cold engines don't run smoothly at low rpms. It reduces fuel and air proportionately as the engine warms. Killing the air won't stop the extra fuel, which is the problem.
If you are getting raw gas out the exhaust you need to do a couple of things. First, pull the dipstick out and see if the oil level is elevated from gas getting in the oil. Smell the dipstick to see if it smells strongly of gas. If either are true, you need to change the oil before running the engine again. Oil diluted with gas does not provide the needed lubrication and you don't want to fry your bottom end.
You need to proceed and make sure that the WRD is not sticking and that the coolant is flowing through it.
You also need to check the cold start valve to be sure that it's not malfunctioning. A quick test is to remove the little inspection screw on the outside and make sure that it only provides extra fuel when the starter is engaged. You can find a lot of information with Search, this is a very popular problem area.
Until you have a reasonable certainty that you have found and fixed the problem you need to monitor the gas-in-oil situation closely.
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Hello,
Sounds like your WRD is working somewhat.
Go through the "linkage tour" and make sure your linkages are correct first. If they are out, all efforts are wasted. Next perform the "split linkage test" to determine what your mixture condition is. You can do this with the engine cold and the engine hot.
Let us know if you are not famiar with these procedures.
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Hi no I am not aware of these procedures if you can help.
I have a day tomorrow to test. First I am going to do the oil test and then move forward with these suggestions.
ian
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The point of the linkage tour is that the linkage is adjusted so that throttle plate is closed and the injection pump lever is against the stop at idle and that they both move simultaneously when the throttle is opened.
When you have achieved this you can separate the linkage to see if you are rich or lean by opening the throttle plate or moving the pump lever. You basically did this earlier but now you need to get the linkage back to spec.
BTW, I am not a night owl, I am in France at the moment.