Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: rad-man on March 01, 2010, 20:50:42
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I recently inherited my father's 280SL. He's owned it for about 25 years, and I have memories working on with with him as a child. No major changes occurred during it's life with us. It was a driver for him, and I don't think he ever really knew much about it.
I've decided to look into the history, so here we go...
From this site's Technical Manual, I've been able to decipher the following:
VIN:
113 044 1 2 020400
113 = w113
044 = 280SL
1 = left-hand drive
2 = automatic transmission
Engine bay plate:
426 462 516
050 G 726 H 6
11304412 2
0 60468 05038
426 = Combination Code 420+422 (420 = Automatic transmission, floor shift & 422=Power steering)
462 = Rear fog lamp, 280SL (as of 68)
516 = Radio Becker Grand Prix, stereo
050G = White
726H = Beige Grey
6 = hardtop mounted on car, softtop folded
11304412 = first 8 of Vin
2 = country code, Germany
Engine:
middle: 130 016 1101
Far right: 280 SE
130 980 051761
I’m not able to find a plates on the door jamb or on the right longitudinal frame member .
So it definitely looks like the engine has been swapped out from a 280 SE, but why does the firewall tag mention “280 se/8”?
I found the thread about the /8 regarding the 1968 changes.
Also, what do the numbers on the firewall plate mean?
“12-083041”?
Is it correct to have the plates screwed in with screws and not rivets?
What year is this thing? and what other places can I get hints from?
TIA
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Looks like the data plates are from two different cars...the plate along the top of the left fender is a W113 Pagoda plate for an Auto tranny 280SL
The Firewall plate is from a 108 sedan...the 280SE would refer to a 280 Sedan (S) with Fuel Injection (the "E" of SE is for Einspritzer, Fuel Injection.) This plate is not correct for this car.
A firewall plate means the car was a Euro version car originally sold by a dealer outside the US...this is consistent with the "2" for Germany.
If the VIN ends with 020400, production would have been August 1970...would have been a 1970 or 1971 model car depending on the marketing practices of the dealer.
I have seen firewall data plates with screws...do not know if they were originally riveted or screwed.
Not sure if you have the Data Card for the car...if not, you should contact the Mercedes Classic Center to get the card.
Richard M, NYC
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Why your car would have a VIN tag from a 280SE sedan screwed to the firewall is a mystery. That tag should show the model as 280sl/8 and have 113-042 printed and the 12 xxxxxx stamped in. There is no good reason why someone would have done this. Changing this tag after a motor swap would not be helpful, because the motor and chassis numbers are never the same.
On the right front frame rail underneath the rubber boot for the throttle body, you will find the permanent VIN stamped directly into the vehicle frame. This number should match the VIN on your vehicle title. This number can be used to get a data card and find out how the car was originally equiped and the original engine number.
The engine numbers you photographed are casting numbers for the cylinder head, The motor number is stamped into the iron of the cylinder block below the #6 spark plug.
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Thanks for the reply! I'll try to find the VIN below the throttle body for comparison.
Just found some more discrepencies...
I have a Euro model, but several items don't fit with what I've been reading about.
I don't have any bumper guards, i have stiff door pockets, Passenger visor has a mirros, Speedo is KM/H, temp is in Celcius. However, I have the side fender markers and my seats have head rests.
I looked up the VIN in the registry, and my number falls between 2 1971 models... (020400)
VIN:
113 044 1 2 020400
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If it is a Euro model then they are not discrepancies as the Euro models did not have bumper guards, they had a mirror on the passenger side, they did have hard pockets and the speedo should be in KPH and the temp in Celsius. The marker lights were probably put on there to comply with US requirements after it was imported.
You now need to get your data card from MB Classic Centre in CA.
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Where did you find the VIN 113 044 1 2 020400? Is that stamped on the car somewhere, or is it from the title?
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... I'll try to find the VIN below the throttle body for comparison. ...
Here is a photo showing where to look but it may be hidden under A/C hoses and other lines.
http://www.sl113.org/wiki/uploads/DataCard/kwd10up.jpg
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If it is a Euro model then they are not discrepancies as the Euro models did not have bumper guards, they had a mirror on the passenger side, they did have hard pockets and the speedo should be in KPH and the temp in Celsius. The marker lights were probably put on there to comply with US requirements after it was imported.
You now need to get your data card from MB Classic Centre in CA.
Sorry, I meant that it had all those european features Except the side markers and the Seat headrests.
It would make sense that the markers were added, and maybe the headrest were an available option.... or the seats have also been replaced.
Could anyone give a little more detail on the Frame VIN. I cant seem to locate it, and the picture isnt very helpful
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Could anyone give a little more detail on the Frame VIN. I cant seem to locate it, and the picture isnt very helpful
Well. using the picture will at least help you once you get close. If you are on the passenger's side fender with hood open, you will see the frame rail just back of the air filter housing. Once you see this, look for the seam as in the picture -- the numbers should be on the inside just over the lip... clear as mud. eh?
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Perhaps the numbers were painted over. Take a wire brush or sandpaper and clean the area shown in the photo.
It is next to the ridge of the frame, on the engine side .
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I went out to the garage to look at my VIN stamped on the chassis, it is directly below the throttle body where the box section of the frame starts to bend down into the bucket the air cleaner sits in. It is to the center of the pinch weld seam of the box section on the top surface. If the engine bay has not been repainted a rectangle of primer is exposed where the number is stamped. You have to look straight down to see it, you also may have to remove the rubber boot going from the throttle body to the air cleaner. on my car it is partially hidden by the metal tube for the heater return line. as mentioned earlier if equipped with A/C refrigerant hoses may be running over this area too.
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Here's an image I snatched from another site:
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aha! I found it. Thanks, guys.
It was painted over and I had to take a wire brush/sand paper to it.
How easy is it to change/forge this location? It looks good, but I'm just overall suspicious now....
Also, is the metal VIN tag normal in the 3rd picture? It's on the vertical windshield pillar - stuck on top of the leather.
(http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs404.snc3/24489_731207592053_9207047_40395871_4486567_n.jpg)
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I think you're good with that number. For whatever reason someone changed your VIN tag on the firewall - I would take it off. I haven't heard of a way to get a new one, but possibly someone here has. The number on the A frame pillar is not original. It probably was reproduced to satisfy US regs when the car was imported.
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btw...found a place that can reproduce the VIN tags. Have to think where if you're interested in putting it back to orig...
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I wouldn't be so suspicious. It's a Euro-spec car, so it's a little different from a lot of the US-spec cars you see around you. Plus they did weird things like that crude VIN plate on the A-post when they federalized them. I've seen things like that before.
The only thing that doesn't add up is the plate screwed into the firewall. Not sure why someone would do that when the VIN is so clearly correct elsewhere. Could be a harmless mistake.
I'm more interested in the interior... Is that an original leather interior?
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no clue. It's not tearing or worn down at all.
No clue how many real miles are on it either. Only 5 places on the odometer. Did the US version have 6 digits?
How do I contact MB to get data sheet?
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Any dealership or the classic center will help you there. Some proof of ownership required. The speedo/odo on th US version has 5 digits
see discussion here on data cards:
http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=12284.msg83177#msg83177
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Rad-man,
There is a member of this forum that does the replacement ID plates for these cars that you could use to replace the wrong the firewall plate.
He is known by the name CraigS and here is a link to some of the comments on the tags.
http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=2451;sa=showPosts
Garry
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Chances are that the car was imported into the U.S. from Europe sometime in the 1980's. There were a lot of "Grey Market" imports being brought in then. The federal rules regarding importation of such cars allowed a one time exemption of emissions certification (in other words one person could bring in one nonconforming vehicle), but the vehicle had to be modified to meet the current U.S. safety specs. When one brought a nonconforming car into the country a bond had to be posted until the car was brought into compliance. D.O.T. had a checksheet that had to be completed by a licensed modifier and submitted with the customs documents to obtain the Federal emissions waiver and import certificate. Once one had the waiver and certificate it would be possible to title and register the vehicle in the U.S. Among other things, this meant that certain switches had to be labeled in English, some kind of side impact beams had to be inserted in the doors, seat belts had to be replaced with U.S. spec belts with a warning light and buzzer, headlamps had to be replaced with U.S. spec sealed beams, a third brake light had to be installed in the rear window (vehicles built after January1985 only), km only speedometers had to be replaced with units reading in mph, or marked off in 10mph increments, and the VIN had to be visible through the lower right corner of the the windshield. The aluminum tag in your second picture is how they met this last requirement.
I am familiar with this because I helped my father-in-law get his Euro-model 1986 W124 300D "Federalized"when he returned to the States from his O.A.S. assignment in Trinidad & Tobago in 1989. Years later he gave it to us and we still have it. The home made VIN tag is still there on the windshield post, visible through the lower right corner of the windshield.
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One of my old MBs, I think it was a 67 250SE coupe 111 body, had the ID stamp from the Sherman tank it was built from next to the MB stamp. The Sherman had been born in GM's Detroit plant in 1944. Took an 88 in the turret in March 1945 near Metz. Krupp steel guys were trying to send a message! (PPP Pure Pagoda Pedantry)
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I think that's an original cognac leather interior you have. Please post some more pix of the seats. Could be a really nice original detail. Original leather is pretty rare to see. (Nice aroma, too.)
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Rad-man,
There is a member of this forum that does the replacement ID plates for these cars that you could use to replace the wrong the firewall plate.
He is known by the name CraigS and here is a link to some of the comments on the tags.
http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=2451;sa=showPosts
Garry
Craig did my VIN plate and it came out really nice.
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I only have pics from my camera phone right now. I'll try to get some close-ups this weekned.
few more questions:
Does anyone know what this switch is for?
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what is the proper color for the hub caps? Are they to match the color of the Hard top or the car itself?
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Also, are the tags correct on the trunk of my car? I haven't seen any others say "automatic"...
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The signage on the cars were different for the USA than Europe as well as lots of other things. The Auto badge is correct for a Euro car.
The switch I have heard sometimes was put there for fog/driving lights maybe someone else can add to that line.
The hub caps should be the same as the Hard Top.
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Common use for a switch in the center console was for a rear fog light or a heated rear window. If the hard top rear window was heated, there will be an electric cord on the inside right of the HT to connect to a plug coming up along the right side of the package bench wall.
Richard M, NYC
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Nothing is glaringly wrong on this car. I'm pretty sure it has an original full leather interior (nice!), original European Becker radio (LMKU), aftermarket a/c and the optional jump seat (leather here, too). I'd invest in some Leatherique to dress that old leather as soon as possible. Don't want it to dry out and crack.
According to the option codes, the "automatic" plate on the rear deck was the standard. To delete it, you needed to specify option 254 when ordering.
Looking forward to seeing more pix.
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What would be a typical reason for swapping out the motor?
Overall it's in great shape, but it runs like hell when the engine warms up - I've been reading up on that issue in some other threads.
The radio was working fine up until a few months ago. It seems like the fuse is blown, but I cant find which one it runs off of.
and finally, the windshield wipers dont work. I had to pay a little extra to get an inspection sticker ;)
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I'm pretty sure your left front side marker light is mounted higher than my US version car.
If true, that would be one more indicator that they were added to a non US model.
(I debated not posting this because I didn't want it to sound like I am insulting your car. I'm not. I believe these details are what makes these cars interesting. You are clearly interested in the history of the car, so hopefully you don't have a problem with my comment, and after all, I could be wrong.)
Was a fantastic car. Great interior.
Enjoy the ride and the memories of your childhood and father.
Did I miss the post or do you not have the engine number yet?
Don't assume the motor has been switched out. You'll know once you check the number against the data card.
I've had many positive surprises along the way (a whole year at this point ;D ), and a few sad ones. :( (wrong grille washers, can you believe that ???)
As far as it running bad after it warms up, you should describe that in more detail.
Also, this site is FILLED with valuable information !!!
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The Radio fuse box is under the hood next to the right shock tower. It's a brown plastic box with wires coming in from the sides and a thump screw holding the lid on. Clean off the contacts of the fuse and losten and re-tighten the clamping scews for the wires and your radio will start working again.
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That is the nicest original cognac leather interior I've ever seen. Congrats! Preserve that sucker and invest in some Leatherique ASAP!
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The Radio fuse box is under the hood next to the right shock tower. It's a brown plastic box with wires coming in from the sides and a thump screw holding the lid on. Clean off the contacts of the fuse and losten and re-tighten the clamping scews for the wires and your radio will start working again.
Thank you!!
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Douglas,
Although the interior looks pretty nice, I'm quite certain that it's not factory original cognac (rotpunkt/red dots) leather.
Cognac leather in a close to 40 year old convertible in close to perfect condition would be almost unheard of.(no cracks and no red dots worn off)
A couple of observations, first the color of the dots are too dark and brown(that could be due to picture quality). The headrests are missing the side holes for the hex adjustment screws, so they are obviously later made and seem to match the seat leather in terms of dot pattern and colors.
In addition the seat cushion covers do not have the correct number of "sections" (for lack of a better name).
Still looks good though, but hardly factory original. My guess is that if one looks closely and compare the leather on the doorpanels(they almost never gets replaced unless it's part of a full restoration) and the leather used in the seats the difference will be quite obvious.
Hans
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Although the interior looks pretty nice, I'm quite certain that it's not factory original cognac (rotpunkt/red dots) leather.
In addition the seat cushion covers do not have the correct number of "sections" (for lack of a better name).
Hans
Good eye, Hans. Of course, you're correct. The original seats have 4 of the perforated vertical "ribs" and this car has 5 running through the midsection of the seat covering.