Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: n/a on February 15, 2004, 10:59:45
-
Folks,
Never one to finish one project when I can intermingle nuts and bolts from another, I'm starting to drop my original rear end and install a "low mileage" 3.27 rear from a 280 SE 4.5. I gives me a chance to swap from small to large motor skills as all that dash work makes me tense! Anyhow, any tips on how to go about the swap would be appreciated. I've got the factory and Haynes manuals on hand and ready to go. The rear end is complete out to, but not including the brake rotors. I intend to store the original rear in case I ever sell the car, so I'm hoping you purists won't be too offended.
John
PS I've got on hand a new, split boot for the swing axle, rear shocks, and something called a "driveshaft support" and a "driveshaft support bearing". Other parts I should swap out while everything's pulled? Seems like the universal joint should go, too.
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
I understand from others that you need to make a small change in the 4.5 axle. The cooling tube has to be removed and the holes closed off.
I hope you have a manual transmission. I think the auto would be sluggish on take off.
Where did you find the axle and about how much did it cost?
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
-
I do have a manual gearbox. I have hated first gear in that thing the 20 plus years we've had the car, so I'm hoping this will be an improvement. I like to motor off relying more on the inline-six's torque than revving the you-know-what out of it.
Anyhow, I located the axle on the west coast. It cost just under $1000 shipped Fedex ground to the opposite coast. I got it from www.online-mercedes.com and dealt with Luis. I was very pleased with the transaction, but then I haven't tried it yet! It was crated up very nicely, I must say. Let him know I sent you, if you drop him a line at sales@online-mercedes.com.
John
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
Thanks John,
I know what you mean about first gear. It's too low and second is just a bit too high. Rear end switch sounds like the way to go. Are you going to do the swap yourself? I would change out all of the bushings and lower spring pads while you your at it. I've changed out the trailing arm bushings. You need to make a small tool but its not hard to do. Same goes for the main mount that's in the trunk. Mine was pretty bad.
Have you considered progressive springs? I have them and they make a nice improvement in handling.
Jeff
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
-
I am attempting to do the job myself. So far, it doesn't look too bad, but then all I've done is support the axles and disconnect the emergency brake lines!
Any suggestions for parts sources, particularly for the progressive springs? Should I go ahead and replace the pinion bearing seal? The one on the car now is leaking horribly and it may be the "new" unit isn't only because they shipped it dry. It does look pretty clean, though.
John
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
John,
You can order the progressive springs from John Olson at www.slmarket.com
I have been buying parts from http://www.europeanautomotive.com/
Not sure what they have in the way of axle parts.
Do you have the BBB? I have it on CDrom. If you would like some more documentation let me know.
Jeff
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
-
I do have the BBB (paper version) and the Haynes manual. I'm now at the point of finding wrenches big enough to loosen the "sleeve nut" at the center bearing. I may go ahead and lower the thrust arms so I can remove the springs, just so I'll feel like I'm making progress. I'll replace those spring pads and hopefully the bushings.
Anyone know what size wrenches I need to loosen the sleeve nut?
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
Hi John,
After looking around some I found some additional items which will need to be changed when you put the 3.27 axle in place. You need a new pickup gear for the speedo and a different emergency brake cable.
I found a 3.27 axle in New York. Since you have yours already are there any questions you can think I should ask them about in order to determine the value.
Thanks
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
-
John,
I think the sleeve nuts are 42 mm and 46 mm. I use cheap hydraulic fitting wrenches in sizes 1 11/16 and 1 13/16, with a cheater pipe.
George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual
-
Regarding the speedo pick up gear, I've already talked with Palo Alto speedometers (paspeedo.com) and they'll clean and recalibrate the unit for the new ratio for under $200 (assuming they don't find any huge problems with the currently-functioning unit). I don't know of many questions you can ask, as I'm a novice at this. Generally, the more complete the axle is, the better. Some say to make sure it's one with the compensating spring instead of the hydropneumatic set up, but it seems people swap those over fairly routinely. My guy sent me pictures and the mileage of the donor car, all of which you have to weigh against the credibility of the source. He also sent me a shot of a tag or ID - I forget exactly which - that proved it was a 3.27. I didn't want to end up with a 3.69, which I didn't think would make enough of a difference to be worth all the trouble. My guy also has supposedly done this swap a number of times and offered to help (albeit long distance) if I run up against any problems. (He was very convincingly enthusiastic about the value of the swap, BTW, particularly with the manual g-box.) I just sort of went with my gut as far as the guy I was dealing with and the price - there just aren't that many out there to directly compare it to. A well-known supplier of MB parts wanted just about double what I ended up paying. That was pretty persuasive! Time will only tell, though, if I made the right decision.
John
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
George,
Where might I find the hydraulic fitting wrenches? I did a quick google search and didn't come up with much. I did find a listing for 46 and 41mm drive shaft wrenches at http://www.samstagsales.com/mbref.htm but having to e-mail them to get prices scares me.
John
PS Here's a standard to metric wrench conversion table
http://www.csgnetwork.com/wrenchsizetable.html
They agree with your 1 13/16" for the larger, but show a 1 5/8" for the smaller. You think that would be too small?
BTW As much as I use them, I'll probably come back as a cheater pipe in my next life!
quote:
Originally posted by George Davis
John,
I think the sleeve nuts are 42 mm and 46 mm. I use cheap hydraulic fitting wrenches in sizes 1 11/16 and 1 13/16, with a cheater pipe.
George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
I don't know anything about exchanging rear axles, but I do believe Samstag Sales to be a good company.
Rodd
Powell, Ohio, USA
1966 230SL, Euro, Auto, Leather, both tops
1994 E420
-
Good used complete 3.27 rear ends, out of dead W108 4.5 Mercedes sedans can easily be had for $200.00 to $500.00 here in the rusty north!
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
-
Now you tell me! The guy I bought from on the west coast was surprised I had trouble locating one back east, but the usual on-line salvage yard searches came up dry, along with calls to Virginia yards. Maybe I should get a spare!
quote:
Originally posted by ja17
Good used complete 3.27 rear ends, out of dead W108 4.5 Mercedes sedans can easily be had for $200.00 to $500.00 here in the rusty north!
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
<<He also sent me a shot of a tag or ID - I forget exactly which - that proved it was a 3.27. >>
The ratio is Stamped on the case , driver side , on a machined flat in front of the axle outer tube flange mount.
If it had a Tag on it , it is more likely not a ratio tag, but a Posi Tag..check it out cuz they take a special posi fluid.
If I remember correctly , the posi is the one with the added cooling tube. These hit the chassis if not capped.
I have some in the barn and will take a closer look to be sure.....
-
A Dalton,
You say that you think you have some axles in the barn. If so are you willing to sell one. Please describe what you have.
Thank you
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
-
More on wrenches:
I heard back from samstagsales.com very promptly. They said that 41 and 46mm wrenches are the correct ones for the W113 drive shaft. Below are their catalog numbers and prices, which actually do seem pretty reasonable. They take only checks or money orders. No on-line CC sales. - belay that - I read further down the page and they do take PayPal now. Cool!
SW4004-41 open end wrench $20.33
SW4004-46 open end wrench $25.54
John
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
I went ahead and orderd the wrenches from Samstag. It came to about $55 with shipping and insurance. Pleae don't anyone tell me they have a stack of these in their barn free for the asking!
Next I need help with a spring compressor that'll fit the compensating spring. The strut spring compressor I already have on hand won't fit in the rather narrow gap between the coils.
Any suggestions for a source for this? (All this is vaguely reminiscent of my first suspension tweaking 40 years ago. I actually rented a shop's lift to install an EMPI camber compensator on my first car, a '61 VW Beetle. What a groover I was.)
John
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
When I removed my compensating spring my regular spring compressor fingers were to thick, so I just took my bench grinder and ground away the fingers until they fit. The advice I received said it would be a lot easier with the fuel tank removed, but I did it with the fuel tank in and if I do it again I'm taking that tank out. I kept the compressor on the spring until I reinstalled it and it went back in a little reluctantly but it went in. My target job was the rubber boot replacement with a split boot. You may consider if the axle is out putting the one piece boot on as it just may be a more secure seal, I'm not sure what splitting the axle entails and it might be to much trouble. Remember when filling or draining your differential to have the axles level with wieght on the tires or jacks as the axle tubes hold quite a bit of oil and if they are sagging down you can overfill or not completely drain the old oil.
-
I'll second Graphic66's comments. I also did it without removing the gas tank. I think a lot of this job would be easier without it installed. I was only able to get one side of the spring compressor on the spring. This means you need to use additioanl brackets to keep the spring from popping out and injuring someone. My reinstall was complicated by the progressive compensating spring design. The coil is tighter on one end and the compressor would not fit. There wasn't much to compress at that end anyway. Treat the compressed spring very very carefully. Lot of energy trying to bust out.
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
-
Hello,
All the W108 V-8 engine 3.23 differentials had the cooling tubes, with or without posi traction.
You can relieve most of the energy on the compensator spring. Remove the right rear shock absorber. Remove the two 19mm bolts holding the right rear brake caliper (do not disconnect the hose). Move the caliper out of the way. Allow the axles to hang. Do this by placing the jackstands at the points on chasis where the rear suspension thrust arm mount. The axles will hang down. The compensator spring will be nearly all the way extended. Remove the 19mm inner most spring bracket bolt first. The bracket will now hinge out of the way releasing the spring. To be on the safe side, use a spring compressor which should fit now that the spring is so far extended.
Mercedes used a wide variety of ratios in this swing axle package. The 4.10, 4.08, 3.92, 3.90, 3.75, 3.69, 3.46, 3.23. The most difficult to find would be the standard 3.75 on the 230-SL. However the much more common 3.69 is close and has disc brakes! some of the early V-8 engine sedans had the 3.46 which could make a nice substitute for a highway cruiser. The 3.69 versions and 3.92 versions are probably the most common in the SL's and sedans. There are also a lot of 280-SE 4.5 sedan donor cars with the 3.23 which may be a little too long legged for some W113 owners.
The lower ratios do create a little more strain on the drivetrain. It is like a person climbing a stairway taking three steps at a time instead of one!
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
-
Joe,
Thanks for your insight. You just made the compensating spring job a lot safer for me. Thanks again!
Jeff
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
-
As Joe said, the earlier 111, 3.5 had the 3,46 and 3,69. I believe the Sedan was 3,46 and the Coupe was either/option.
The 108 , 4.5s were 3,27 . I think the 3:23 is just a typo ??
-
Hello,
Actually the 3.23 figure comes directly out of the Factory "Technical Data" booklet (1972). In any case the difference between 3.23 ratio and 3.27 in insignificant.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
-
Thanks for the tip on removing the compensating spring. I'm about to remove that right shock absorber as we speak.
Regarding the ration on W108 4.5's. My materials indicated that it was a 3.23 ratio, too. However, others disagreed. Attached is a picture of the numbers stamped on mine. Sure seems to be 3.27.
I'm figuring on roughly a 20 percent drop in rpm in top gear going from 4.08 to 3.27. I can't swear, but it seems to me I was running nearly 3600 at 65 (I think the factory puts the figure at just under 18 mph per 1k rpm, which is about right) and the new ratio should drop that to just under 2900. Sounds good to me, but only time will tell.
I can always drop down to third if I feel the need to reminisce!
John
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) 3.27.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/johnlivingston/200421917267_3.27.jpg)
53.49 KB
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
I forgot to mention that I checked with John Olson re purchasing just the compensating progressive-rate spring, since I can't afford all five springs at once and the others are relatively easy to get at later on. He does sell just that one spring for $175, for your planning purposes.
He'd appreciate any orders as he's in Europe skiing and wouldn't mind your subsidizing his Glüwein tab.
John
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
Two we checked here are also stamped 3,27.
The 4.08 with orig size tires [185/ 80 profile] will get you 17.01 mph@ 1 K..
The 3.27 will change that to 21.22 mph@ 1 k..so approx 4 mph per 1K tach...
Slightly less if using the shorter 195/75s..
Some that have gone the 3.27 go w/lower profile to take the edge off.
Here is a nice calculator to make any comparisions.
http://pw1.netcom.com/~sgalaba/mph.htm
Note that the German ratio stamp uses a comma in place of the colon for ratio punctuation...
-
A. Dalton,
Are you interested in selling a 3.27 axle? If so email me at lax882@aol.com.
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
-
Hello,
Yes that is a 3.27 and not a 3.23 for sure. I guess even Mercedes factory manuals have some rare mistakes!
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
-
On the subject of 113 rear swing axle ..
I posted a tool that is easily and inexpensively made to centralize the axle to factory specs.
This is done w/cross strut adjuster and allows the axle pivot pin to be located to the proper factory spec. offset distance of 36mm [ +/-2 mm] to the right of the Center-Line of the Chassis.
This can be done by dropping plumbs from the pivot and chassis C/L Bore Holes ,etc. , but this tool has those geometrics in the design and allows one to simply hold the tool ends up to the Thrust arm mounting Step Bearing bolt heads and lining the pointer up on the center of the pivot bolt head. It can also be used for a dimensional check without jacking the car up.
ftp://members.aol.com/ajdalton7/113tool.jpg
I have cleaned up what was previously posted , so if anyone is interest, go here for a copy. May want to blow it up from there , as I have included the 3 pages into one...
-
I've very interested in your tool and sure do appreciate your having posted it. Would it be possible for you to mail me a hard copy? The print I got from your on-line version wasn't clear enough to make out the details. I'd be happy to scan a higher-resolution version and put it on the web for members to access.
John
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
A Dalton,
Great tool for calculating speed after gear change. Assuming it works here is a brief summary of my 4 speed manual with 205 70R14 tires in 4th gear.
rpm 3.27 rear 3.92 rear
1000 20.92 mph 17.45 mph
2000 41.85 34.91
3000 62.77 52.36
3500 73.24 61.09
4000 83.7 69.82
5000 104.62 87.27
So currently a 70 mph cruise is about 4000 rpm. With the 3.27 rear it will drop to 3300 rpm.
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
-
Jeff
You are somehow not entering the correct info in the speed cal.
Tires 205/70-14 should get you :
1K rpm = 17.45 mph w/3.92 rear
1K rpm = 20.92 mph w/3.27 rear
This is in top gear - you must therefore list the trans spec as 1.1 in the calculator.. I think you are just using 1., giving you false readings
-
Arthur,
Thanks for the info. I've corrected the table below.
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
-
Updating everyone on my progress, or lack thereof:
I've been working on the compensating spring, following Joe Alexander's instructions (up to a point!). I've got both shocks and coil springs out, the exhaust system hangers removed (still supporting the exhaust slightly as i've not attempted disconnecting it at the manifolds), the right caliper unbolted, and the outer 19mm bolt of the spring perch removed. This is where I erred: Joe had said, "Remove the 19mm inner most spring bracket bolt first. The bracket will now hinge out of the way releasing the spring. To be on the safe side, use a spring compressor which should fit now that the spring is so far extended." Even though I removed the wrong bolt, the bracket tilted out and released most of the spring's compression (see attached pic). However, I still couldn't get my compressor on it, so I took the fool's way out and levered the thing off the rest of the way. It came off with some enthusiasm, but without mishap. Keeping a compressor on it would certainly be advisable!
I'm hoping the Samstag.com drive shaft wrenches will be in next week, which will allow me to disconnect that. That won't leave much, except the cross struts (?), some of the remaining brake lines, and then the central mounting bolt.
Thanks again all the sage advice.
John
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) comp_spring2.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/johnlivingston/200422214346_comp_spring2.jpg)
42.57 KB
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
Hi John, Sounds like progress to me. You may noy need upper coil spring pads but I imagine the bottom are pretty bad. Make sure you order the correct thickness pad. The BBB tells you where to measure for pad thickness. Are you planning on installing new seals etc. on the old axle? Now is the time to replace bearings as well. How do you know if they need to be replaced? I'm thinking that I'll replace every wear type part I can when I do the job. Did you get a readable copy of Arthurs tool diagram? I have one if you need it.
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
-
Jeff,
I've tried to order every rubber-type part and bushing I could think of. I ordered both upper and lower spring pads. I didn't know about measuring pad thickness. I'd better check that and see if I have the right ones.
I haven't done anything about seals and bearings on the "new" axle. I guess I'd better look at that, too. Do you have any part numbers handy?
The version of Arthur's tool drawing that I have measures 621x687 pixels, which doesn't print very well on my printer. Have you got a higher-resolution version?
John
quote:
Originally posted by Lax882@aol.com
Hi John, Sounds like progress to me. You may noy need upper coil spring pads but I imagine the bottom are pretty bad. Make sure you order the correct thickness pad. The BBB tells you where to measure for pad thickness. Are you planning on installing new seals etc. on the old axle? Now is the time to replace bearings as well. How do you know if they need to be replaced? I'm thinking that I'll replace every wear type part I can when I do the job. Did you get a readable copy of Arthurs tool diagram? I have one if you need it.
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
John,
There are three different pad thicknessess for the upper rear springs.
18 mm thick #108 325 01 85
24 mm thick #108 325 02 85
30 mm thick #108 325 03 85
Springs and spring pads including the compensating spring were specifically matched in the factory to achieve correct ride height and rear wheel camber. I could read the part number off my old pad. I didn't know any of this until after I installed my new rear springs with the wrong pads. At least I did it faster the second time.
The compensating spring pad comes in two thicknessess.
6 mm #110 329 01 85
3 mm #110 329 00 85
Sometimes you have 2ea 3mm pads sometimes 2ea 6mm pads and sometimes one of each. If you spring has white markings on it you have 2ea 6mm pads. If red you need one of each. If blue there both ends are 3mm.
I have not found a detailed parts summary of the rear end with Mercedes part numbers. The BBB on page or job #35-0/5 says the 280SL has a grooved ball bearing #183 981 00 25 on the left and a self aligning roller bearing #000 981 05 06 on the right.
That's all that I have found at the moment.
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
-
Jeff,
This is a huge help. Thanks.
I checked and my original upper pads are the 30mm jobs. The compensating spring has the white marking, so it looks like 2 6mm pads.
How does all this work out if one goes to Olson's progressive springs?
John
quote:
Originally posted by Lax882@aol.com
John,
There are three different pad thicknessess for the upper rear springs.
18 mm thick #108 325 01 85
24 mm thick #108 325 02 85
30 mm thick #108 325 03 85
Springs and spring pads including the compensating spring were specifically matched in the factory to achieve correct ride height and rear wheel camber. I could read the part number off my old pad. I didn't know any of this until after I installed my new rear springs with the wrong pads. At least I did it faster the second time.
The compensating spring pad comes in two thicknessess.
6 mm #110 329 01 85
3 mm #110 329 00 85
Sometimes you have 2ea 3mm pads sometimes 2ea 6mm pads and sometimes one of each. If you spring has white markings on it you have 2ea 6mm pads. If red you need one of each. If blue there both ends are 3mm.
I have not found a detailed parts summary of the rear end with Mercedes part numbers. The BBB on page or job #35-0/5 says the 280SL has a grooved ball bearing #183 981 00 25 on the left and a self aligning roller bearing #000 981 05 06 on the right.
That's all that I have found at the moment.
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
John,
I can't really say for sure. For me the original pad thickness worked the best. I had 18mm on the rear and you were using 30mm. I think modern technologies would make for more uniform springs across productions runs. I suspect all of the pad matching stuff had to do with spring variations from one production run or supplier to another. But that's a guess. Maybe John Olson has more insight into the matter. Email me at lax882@aol.com and I'll sent you Arthurs sketch.
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
-
Jeff,
My primary concern would be the compensating spring pads, as they are the tougher ones to get to. It'd be easier to make adjustments on main coils, if needed.
I'll see what Olson suggests.
Thanks for the thought that it's the springs' variations that the pads allowed for. I'd thought maybe I just had a very heavy W113!
quote:
Originally posted by Lax882@aol.com
John,
I can't really say for sure. For me the original pad thickness worked the best. I had 18mm on the rear and you were using 30mm. I think modern technologies would make for more uniform springs across productions runs. I suspect all of the pad matching stuff had to do with spring variations from one production run or supplier to another. But that's a guess. Maybe John Olson has more insight into the matter. Email me at lax882@aol.com and I'll sent you Arthurs sketch.
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
Has this been discussed yet:
Are the compensating springs the same for the 280SE 4.5 and the Pagoda?
If not, should you use your Pagoda comp. spring in your new 280SE 4.5 rear end?
Will W14
1965 230SL 4spd
Victoria,BC
-
Will,
It's a moot point on mine as the "new" rear came w/o the spring. It's either use the original one from the SL, or get one of John Olson's progressive ones. I'm leaning toward the latter, primarily because the darned thing is a nuisance to replace.
John
quote:
Originally posted by W14
Has this been discussed yet:
Are the compensating springs the same for the 280SE 4.5 and the Pagoda?
If not, should you use your Pagoda comp. spring in your new 280SE 4.5 rear end?
Will W14
1965 230SL 4spd
Victoria,BC
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
My new 3.27 rear axle did come with the comp. spring, so I would appreciate any advise on which one to use.
Thanks,
Will W14
1965 230SL 4spd
Victoria,BC
-
Take my advice with a large grain of salt, as I'm just midway through this process.
I'm not a fan of 30-year-old springs in general, so I have decided to replace my compensating spring with a new, progressive one from John Olson. I plan to replace the other springs as funds allow, but wanted to get this one done since I find it a nuisance to pull.
If I were to stick with one of the old springs, I'd lean toward the one that came with the SL, since your spring pads were matched to that and getting the correct replacements should be a bit easier.
Hopefully more experienced folks will chime in here with their advice.
John
quote:
Originally posted by W14
My new 3.27 rear axle did come with the comp. spring, so I would appreciate any advise on which one to use.
Thanks,
Will W14
1965 230SL 4spd
Victoria,BC
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
Just a "short" update.
I got the 41 and 46mm wrenches from Samstag.com this week. I just tried them out and was disappointed by how easily that slip nut on the drive shaft loosened. I could almost have turned it by hand!
I've disconnected the brakes and lines from the axle. You can tell which flex line I've already replaced as it drips readily when loosened, whereas the original one is so constricted that virtually nothing drips out of it. Time to replace that one!
I hope to do the pinion coupling nuts in the morning, then move the drive shaft out of the way. I'm pretty sure I'll then be about at the point of lowering the axle.
I've lowered the exhaust by removing the donuts, but still have the front pipes attached to the manifolds (I've got a support under the system, so there's no great stress being put on the manifolds at present). Getting to those manifold bolts would be tough with the car in its present, rear-up stance. Can I realistically expect to be able to get that rear end out of there with the exhaust merely lowered and not removed?
John
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
John - I use pipe wrenches to undo and tighten the nut on the driveshaft. On the exhaust, it's hard for me to visualize it being much more difficult to get to the manifold-to-downpipe bolts with the car jacked up in the rear. I think you should be able to get to them ok and drop the exhaust a lot further down. It will be very difficult to remove the system altogether though, unless you have a car lift that goes up high enough.
Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
-
Cees,
I think I've come up with an alternate plan. I need to replace the forward of the two resonators, so I'm thinking about using a reciprocating saw to cut the back half of the exhaust off. I'm hoping that'll leave enough exhaust in place that I can drive the car (assuming I ever get the rest of it back together) to the exhaust shop and have them put in the new forward resonator and pipes to the rear (fairly new) resonator. This should let me drop the axle w/o having to fuss with the manifold bolts.
quote:
Originally posted by cees klumper
John - I use pipe wrenches to undo and tighten the nut on the driveshaft. On the exhaust, it's hard for me to visualize it being much more difficult to get to the manifold-to-downpipe bolts with the car jacked up in the rear. I think you should be able to get to them ok and drop the exhaust a lot further down. It will be very difficult to remove the system altogether though, unless you have a car lift that goes up high enough.
Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
Hi John - your plan will work for the rear axle I suppose. For the exhaust system - since you need to replace part of it, have you considered getting a complete new system? If one of the resonators needs replacing now, how long will it be before other parts / pipes are worn out? Driving with half a system may attract more (police) attention that you may care for.
I had to replace part of my system and decided to get it over with 'once and for all', and I bought a stainless system front-to-back from Van Dijk. It cost around $750, seems very well made and it should last 20-some years? It clamps together; this way, it will be much easier to remove if there is ever any need in the future. Just a thought.
Good luck on the job at hand!
Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
-
Cees,
I did look at stainless systems. How do you feel about the sound of yours? Is it close to the original exhaust note? Right now I'm pinching pennies hard, so salvaging some of the existing system seemed the way to go. I only plan to drive it to a nearby muffler shop to have the new pieces welded in, therefore missing the rear muffler shouldn't get me in too much trouble.
Anyhow, I finally sawed through the last pipe minutes ago. I'm now moving to the drive shaft bolts, which are a bit problematic as the car isn't in gear, the shift levers are all out waiting for the last bushings to arrive, and the drums are off and the cables are disconnected, so I can't use the parking brake to keep the driveshaft from rotating. Maybe I can wedge my 41mm wrench in place, or put something through one of the wheel bolt holes.
Did I mention that my 54-year-old back is getting pooped?
BTW I've got a fun story about Pagoda hunting in the Netherlands I hope you'll appreciate, but I'm trying to track down a photo first.
John
quote:
Originally posted by cees klumper
Hi John - your plan will work for the rear axle I suppose. For the exhaust system - since you need to replace part of it, have you considered getting a complete new system? If one of the resonators needs replacing now, how long will it be before other parts / pipes are worn out? Driving with half a system may attract more (police) attention that you may care for.
I had to replace part of my system and decided to get it over with 'once and for all', and I bought a stainless system front-to-back from Van Dijk. It cost around $750, seems very well made and it should last 20-some years? It clamps together; this way, it will be much easier to remove if there is ever any need in the future. Just a thought.
Good luck on the job at hand!
Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
John - my exhaust is not yet completely installed. I need to finish that and start my freshly rebuilt engine to find out about any sound difference. Mind you, my old exhaust system was never tight at the manifold-to-downpipes connection which I put up with for almost 4 years, so having a tight new system will almost have to be an improvement for me. I did ask Van Dijk whether the sound would be far off the original, and they said no. Others have complained about a more harsh/louder noise from their stainless system, but that will depend on the make. From the look and feel of it, I got a very good quality one.
I'm very interested in your Pagoda hunting in the Netherlands story - hope you can post the photo when you find it.
Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
-
I now have the driveshaft bolts out and the driveshaft disconnected. I think there are only two issues left before lowering the axle by loosening the suspension carrier nut (keeping the axle supported by my hydraulic jack).
1. disconnecting the emergency brake cables. I can simply leave them connected to the drums and disconnect them from the underside of the car. However, the cables that came with the "new" axle have been cut, so I'd just as soon disconnect these and reuse them for the time being, particularly as new ones are about $50 a pop. Any tips on getting the shoe hold-down springs (the big ones) released so I can get the shoes off and get at the hand brake cable connection?
2. the locating strut still needs to be released. I find Haynes, page 138, a bit scanty on info. Do I just unscrew nut #1, fig. 8.15, and let the locating strut bolt pull through the "frame" as I lower the entire rear end?
So close!
John
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
Hi John,
Sounds like your making progress. The BBB says to unscrew hexhead bolts 7 and 9 and then remove 8 which they call the front link. Then lossen the rear link 6 and press the cross strut towards the rear. The BBB has a whole sequence of steps to follow in job 35-1. Good luck.
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
-
It's out! Two weeks to drop the thing. Any bets on how many it'll take to get the other one in?
I tried loosening cross strut nut #1 (after removing the lock nut), but it just kept rotating the mount. It turned out my cross strut was the earlier one on 35-2/1 in the BBB, not the 35-2/2 I thought it was. I just pulled hex bolt #9 and the axle swung free. I then ran the jack up underneath, loosened the hex bolt on the rear-axle suspension mount and down she came.
I still need to remove and transfer the hand brake lines and the radius arms from the old axle to the new. After that, it's going to take a bit of time to make sure I have fresh mounts and bushings everywhere I need them.
I still have to deal with the cooling tube situation folks have already mentioned, too.
Any recommendations on which brand 90W fluid to put in there? I'm a bit partial to Red Line synthetics.
Thanks to all for your continuing, much-needed support.
John
quote:
Originally posted by Lax882@aol.com
Hi John,
Sounds like your making progress. The BBB says to unscrew hexhead bolts 7 and 9 and then remove 8 which they call the front link. Then lossen the rear link 6 and press the cross strut towards the rear. The BBB has a whole sequence of steps to follow in job 35-1. Good luck.
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) rear_out2.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/johnlivingston/2004229181022_rear_out2.jpg)
58.79 KB
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
Just a quick update.
I've just finished getting the radius arms off the old axle. I had a problem with one of the 36mm bolts. There wasn't enough clearance to get my socket in, so I used a large adjustable wrench. It started to round off the head until I applied some heat. Both arms are now off. I've also removed the emergency brake shoes and the cables are ready to transfer to the new axle.
Attached is a picture of the two axles side-by-side. I've been told there's a cooling tube on the 108 axle that needs to be cut off and capped somehow. I've drawn an arrow to what I suspect is this tube. Would someone please verify that that is the case? Any suggestions on where I cut it and how I cap it off?
Thanks.
John
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) rears_compared.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/johnlivingston/200437154157_rears_compared.jpg)
53.27 KB
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
Hi John,
I had the same trouble as you. Ended up using a pipe wrench on the outside of the socket because ratchet would not fit. I suppose the tube in your picture is the cooling device. I wonder if you can replace it with a flexible hose of some type and preserve the cooling effect? I'm sure they had a reason for putting it in. I'll climb under my car and see how much space is available to work with.
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
-
John, Can't say for sure that you have the room but if the pipe can be bent a little at the point of your arrow so that it hugs the side of the differential a little closer I think it will work. Maybe someone else has tried this and knows for sure.
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
-
Anyone know who to get the pin that goes up into the trunk 90 degrees to the centre line of the axles? There's a fairly easy way to do it. Not 100% acurate but a lot closer than by eye or just putting it back in and hoping it's close.
Dan c
Daniel G Caron
-
Dan,
How about making a fixture out of copper pipe using a 90 degree elbow and 2 equal length sections of pipe. Line up the ends of the pipe with the center lines of the carrier and fixed axle tube and your finished. How would you do it?
Jeff C.
1970 280SL 4-speed
-
I use a level.
Dan c
-
I did the rear end swap a couple of years ago and it was one of best things I have done to the car. Mine is a 65 with lots of miles so the rear end was pretty loose. The disk brakes are a significant improvement! If you are swapping out drum brakes pay attention to the fact that the sedans had 35 MM pistons on the rear and that 280SLs had 42 MM pistons along with a compensator. The junk yard sent me an axle with a 35 on the right and a 42 on the left. Yikes! Fortunately, I noticed it before I did the installation and they sent me another caliper
There are a couple of ways to deal with the differential bypass pipe. Guys I talked to before doing the job said that they just bent it but that pipe is pretty stiff and I couldn't figure out a way to do it without having it hit the frame. I suspect that they have some pretty funny clunks when they get on a rough road.
David Latham at Bud's says that they take the pipe off entirely and replace it with a couple of those large oil drain plugs from a 230SL He says that the plugs have the same threads and are a perfect fit.
I didn't do that because I had not talked to Dave before I did the job and I figured that the pipe served some kind of purpose. I cut the pipe at the top with a pipe cutter and unscrewed the fitting on the bottom. I got out my plumbing torch and made a pipe out of a couple of 3/4 inch 45degree copper elbows and a short piece of 3/4 inch pipe. The outside diameter of the elbow is almost exactly the same size as the inside diameter of the plug so I put some oil proof silicone seal and stuck it in so that the copper pipe goes out of the bottom hole and snakes along the side of the differential up to a point where I was able to attach a U shaped hose to go from the pipe to the nipple on top of the differential. There is no interference with the frame and it hasnt leaked so far. I check it occasionally to be sure that the rubber hasn't gotten spongy. If it does, I'll probably take it out and replace it with a couple of plugs.
If I had it to do over again, I would just put in the plugs.
The bypass pipe is probably something that they put in because the V-8s were expected to put a little more strain on the axle than the sixes.
-
Mine is a 68 with rear discs, so those'll be the same.
Thanks a bunch for the tip about the 230 drain plugs. I hadn't heard that one, and it sure seems the simplest solution. I'll give that a try and will let you know.
John
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
I checked at the 26mm drain plugs fit perfectly in the tube openings. I've ordered two.
I may have to reconsider the recommendation of my axle supplier. Both rotor backing plates are bent, one pretty badly. Makes you wonder how carefully the axle was handled. Odd, as it sure was boxed and supported well during shipment. Anyhow, is there some trick to getting these backing plates or whatever they are off? I've removed several 13mm nuts through the large hole in the axle end, but the shield doesn't seem to be budging. I was hoping to swap my original ones to the new axle.
John
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
John,
One other thing about the axle job that I ran into. On the new axle i got, I had too much end float on the right hand side. I was aware of end float because one of the reasons I was changing out the old axle was because I couldn't allign it. On the 3.27 axles, each axle has a grooved bearing on the end that defines end float and when the bearing wears you get a loose feeling in the rear end and your disk brakes won't work as well as they should. It's not too bad to change the bearing with the axle out of the car if you have to do it because the axle and bearing can be pulled out using the axle puller that you can borrow from Auto Zone for free. Once the axle shaft (and bearing) is out, the bearing has to be pulled off the axle with an odd looking puller with very long arms. For that I took the it to an independent Mercedes repair guy who is a good friend from the St Louis Mercedes club. Reinstalling the shaft and bearing is not too tough with the axle in the car on the left side but on the right side there is a snap ring on the spline which holds the axle in the collar on the U joint. to do the job right, you have to lift the axle all the way up until you hear the ring snap and that can only be done in the car with the road springs, shocks and compensator spring out. Needless to say, it is easier to do the whole job with the axle out of the car. So check your end float for bearing wear before you put the calipers on. Hopefully you will be lucky enough not to have to worry about it.
Tom Hughes
St. Louis
65 230SL 4 speed manual
-
Tom,
End float. I'm beginning to wonder if I'll ever get this done! I went out to the garage and gave the axle ends a very unscientific pull, wondering if this would give me some idea of the "end float" situation. My 60,000 mile original axles didn't budge. The 120K (maybe) 108 left-hand axle moved in and out slightly, while the right-hand one seemed as tight as the originals. You think I should try for a more scientific method, or is any movement indication that it's new bearing time?
Despite any whining on my part, I greatly appreciate this input.
John
quote:
Originally posted by hughet
John,
One other thing about the axle job that I ran into. On the new axle i got, I had too much end float on the right hand side. I was aware of end float because one of the reasons I was changing out the old axle was because I couldn't allign it. On the 3.27 axles, each axle has a grooved bearing on the end that defines end float and when the bearing wears you get a loose feeling in the rear end and your disk brakes won't work as well as they should. It's not too bad to change the bearing with the axle out of the car if you have to do it because the axle and bearing can be pulled out using the axle puller that you can borrow from Auto Zone for free. Once the axle shaft (and bearing) is out, the bearing has to be pulled off the axle with an odd looking puller with very long arms. For that I took the it to an independent Mercedes repair guy who is a good friend from the St Louis Mercedes club. Reinstalling the shaft and bearing is not too tough with the axle in the car on the left side but on the right side there is a snap ring on the spline which holds the axle in the collar on the U joint. to do the job right, you have to lift the axle all the way up until you hear the ring snap and that can only be done in the car with the road springs, shocks and compensator spring out. Needless to say, it is easier to do the whole job with the axle out of the car. So check your end float for bearing wear before you put the calipers on. Hopefully you will be lucky enough not to have to worry about it.
Tom Hughes
St. Louis
65 230SL 4 speed manual
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
I finally got my dial plunge gauge or whatever it is out of the bubble wrap and, using considerable pressure on the axle end, the max movement I got was .008 to .009 inches. I convert this to about 0.2mm. My manual says the 280 SE 4.5 axle has a max end play of 0.7mm (p. 35-0/5). So maybe I'm okay?
John the Optimist
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
John,
It sounds like you have a good rear axle assembly for your car. You will like the way it cruises at speed and will find that the low gear on your G72 works just fine on a 3.27 axle ratio
A friend of mine sent his speedometer to Palo Alto Speedometer for recalibration after he did his rear end swap and had good results.
As for mufflers, I put a Timevalve system in mine about 14 years ago and it is as good as new. Mine is a little louder to begin with than a 280 SL because it is an early car with the split tube header, but my friend just put in a timevalve and thinks it is quieter. I think Borla also makes a system for 113s too. I had a Borla on my 66 E-Type Jaguar and was very happy with it. (The joke is that stock Jaguar mufflers rot out before the warehouse labels burn off, and as far as I could tell it was true).
Tom Hughes
-
Don't you mean .07 mm? .7 is .027'' of an inch.
You don't want ANY end play at all. Sometimes the large nut that holds the bearing tight will start to come loose. I've done a lot of these axels and several of these conversions and there's some misinformation starting to come out.
The auto trans is a poor choice for this conversion. It will work but drivability suffers around town and first gear starts aren't always possible. The trans kind of groans on inclines or hills. NOT GOOD.
There are no rings or grooves in the outer bearings. They sit in the axel tube and are held in place by the outer retaining plates. The axel is held in place by the bearing and the locked nut. Failure to use the proper bearing on the RT side can cause axel damage. The bearing can be removed using any standard shop press with the arms all the way at the bottom. Use new lock plates. You can drill and tap a hole for a grease fitting on the outer edge ( 45 degree angle area) of the axel tube and never need to pull the axels to grease the bearings ever again.
There is no snap ring inside of the slip coupling. The axel just slides into place and can be removed while the whole axel is in the car. The 4.5 axel may be different and it's been a long time since I had one apart , but frankly , I doubt there's any difference between it and a 280SL axel.
I like the cooling tube idea - that's a good fix.
I have a 3.27 axel if anyone decides to do this conversion.
Dan c
SL Barn
Daniel G Caron
-
I was wrong when I called it a grooved bearing. Earlier models used grooved bearings. For what it's worth, supplement 3 July 1973 Revision of the Big blue book details permissable end float and which bearing to use for replacement. Page 35-0/5 details that earlier cars used "grooved" ball bearings on both sides, later cars used grooved bearings on the left side and a self alligning roller bearing on the left. Axles for the later V8 models used the self alligning roller bearing 000 981 05 06 on both sides. That is the bearing I used and I think that it is a substitute for all of the grooved bearings that were used in previous models. The bearing is held in place by a retainer plate on the outer race and by the axle and nut on the inner race, but it is the bearing which determines end play. Or at least it was on my car.
The right axle on my 230SL had no groove and snap ring in the spline but the 3.27 axle did. I opened the manual to page 35-4/3 just to be sure that I didn't have some kind of crazy dream about doing that particular job. The snap ring is detailed in fig. 35-4/6 in the blue book and the process of seating it is described in job 35-4B. Removal and installation of the right hand axle shaft is on page 35-42 and 35-4/3. I pulled the axle out with an axle puller and took it to my buddy here in town because he had a slot nut spanner and that crazy looking puller (136 589 20 33 00). The Haynes manual is a little more user friendly and it describes the whole process of removal and replacement of the bearings. Fig. 8.1 shows a cross section of the hub, Fig. 8.2 shows the axleshaft and joint (they call the snap ring a circlip) and Fig. 8.3 shows that crazy looking puller.
The bottom line is that there is a snap ring on later axles and if you have to remove and reinstall the RT axle while it is in the car you have to remove the road springs, compensator spring, shocks and even the rubber axle stop bumpers on both sides in order to get the 22 degrees you need for the snap ring to snap into place behind the sliding sleeve.
Tom Hughes
-
The BBB 35-0/5 says the 280 SE 4.5 axle uses self-aligning roller bearings on both sides and that max end play is 0.7mm which is, indeed, .027 inches. On the 280SL (with the grooved bearing on the left) , they show max end play of 0.37mm.
I have a manual gearbox and hate 1st gear with the 4.08 probably more than 4th, although it's close. I'd almost rather start the car in 2nd and do, if there's any decline or forward roll at all.
I'm not tossing the original rear. If for some reason I don't like the change, I'll put it back.
Putting that grease fitting in sounds like a plan.
John
quote:
Originally posted by Benz Dr.
Don't you mean .07 mm? .7 is .027'' of an inch.
You don't want ANY end play at all. Sometimes the large nut that holds the bearing tight will start to come loose. I've done a lot of these axels and several of these conversions and there's some misinformation starting to come out.
The auto trans is a poor choice for this conversion. It will work but drivability suffers around town and first gear starts aren't always possible. The trans kind of groans on inclines or hills. NOT GOOD.
There are no rings or grooves in the outer bearings. They sit in the axel tube and are held in place by the outer retaining plates. The axel is held in place by the bearing and the locked nut. Failure to use the proper bearing on the RT side can cause axel damage. The bearing can be removed using any standard shop press with the arms all the way at the bottom. Use new lock plates. You can drill and tap a hole for a grease fitting on the outer edge ( 45 degree angle area) of the axel tube and never need to pull the axels to grease the bearings ever again.
There is no snap ring inside of the slip coupling. The axel just slides into place and can be removed while the whole axel is in the car. The 4.5 axel may be different and it's been a long time since I had one apart , but frankly , I doubt there's any difference between it and a 280SL axel.
I like the cooling tube idea - that's a good fix.
I have a 3.27 axel if anyone decides to do this conversion.
Dan c
SL Barn
Daniel G Caron
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
I think I'm just going to bend the dust shields roughly back into shape for the time being. I did a crude job and then tried putting the rotors back on. They seem to clear okay.
One new problem arose. It seems the 108 hubs have a locating pin that doesn't have a corresponding hole on my rotors. Is that pin something I should be able to pry out, or do I need to drill a hole in the rotor/drum to match the pin? The pin is midway between two lug bolt holes and is maybe an eighth of an inch in diameter and probably protrudes about the same amount.
John
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
OK. Like I said , I haven't been inside of a 3.27 axel in a long time.
What you have is two different types of bearings. On the earlier cars the right side has a barrel roller type while the left side has a ball bearing. I always use the barrel roller type on the right side even if they're had to find and pricey. The axel goes over centre as it moves up and down and needs this self alingment feature. The other side isn't as critical except for the 3.5/4.5 cars.
When I push or pull on the rear wheels to check for end play I better not find any. Bearings have almost no end play when new and .025'' is a lot of play. If your front wheel bearings had that much play your car would wander all over the road. They are completly different bearings but either way they'd be making alot of noise.
I've had to replace rear bearings because the were making noise and there was always end play and some radial play on the axel shaft. My car has none as do all the others that leave here. I check them as part of regular maintenance. You can have a little bit of play but you really shouldn't be able to feel it. There should no radial play either - in fact almost none at all ( .001 '' - you can't feel it )
Self aligning bearings have a bit more radial play and the end play is more than a grooved ball bearing but it's a realative thing. The radial play corrisponds dirctly to the end play. There needs to be some amount of clearance for grease to enter or the bearing would run hot and fail.
What you see in the book is simply the bearing manufacturing tolerance stated as a maximum before replacement would be advised. Even fairly new bearings when run for a short time will be freer than new in the box bearings, and only an expert could tell you if they're any good or not.
By their very nature , self alingning bearings are freer than ball or grooved bearings as you can turn the innner race completely around on the ones I've seen. Because there's only one U joint inside of the axel and the slip coupling moves with every bump on the road, the axel would knock due to the over centre effect because it needs to be longer at the upper and lower movement extremes.
You won't actualy see this end play because it's taken up in the design of the bearing as part of the self alignment requirements. In other words , it has end play because it needs to in order for the bearing to self align, but not in a way that lets the axel move in or out to any noticeable degree.
Not sure if I've explained this very well. I'm not an engineer and never went beyond high school. Did take drafting and machine shop for 3 years - comes in handy sometimes.
Dan c
SL Barn
Daniel G Caron
-
Dan,
I appreciate your input on this. The end play on my left-hand axle is about .008", so I'm a long way (it seems to me) from the factory's max spec. i realize no end play would be preferable, and I'll no doubt do that bearing at some point, but I'm hoping it's good enough to get the thing back together for the time being.
John
quote:
Originally posted by Benz Dr.
OK. Like I said , I haven't been inside of a 3.27 axel in a long time.
What you have is two different types of bearings. On the earlier cars the right side has a barrel roller type while the left side has a ball bearing. I always use the barrel roller type on the right side even if they're had to find and pricey. The axel goes over centre as it moves up and down and needs this self alingment feature. The other side isn't as critical except for the 3.5/4.5 cars.
When I push or pull on the rear wheels to check for end play I better not find any. Bearings have almost no end play when new and .025'' is a lot of play. If your front wheel bearings had that much play your car would wander all over the road. They are completly different bearings but either way they'd be making alot of noise.
I've had to replace rear bearings because the were making noise and there was always end play and some radial play on the axel shaft. My car has none as do all the others that leave here. I check them as part of regular maintenance. You can have a little bit of play but you really shouldn't be able to feel it. There should no radial play either - in fact almost none at all ( .001 '' - you can't feel it )
Self aligning bearings have a bit more radial play and the end play is more than a grooved ball bearing but it's a realative thing. The radial play corrisponds dirctly to the end play. There needs to be some amount of clearance for grease to enter or the bearing would run hot and fail.
What you see in the book is simply the bearing manufacturing tolerance stated as a maximum before replacement would be advised. Even fairly new bearings when run for a short time will be freer than new in the box bearings, and only an expert could tell you if they're any good or not.
By their very nature , self alingning bearings are freer than ball or grooved bearings as you can turn the innner race completely around on the ones I've seen. Because there's only one U joint inside of the axel and the slip coupling moves with every bump on the road, the axel would knock due to the over centre effect because it needs to be longer at the upper and lower movement extremes.
You won't actualy see this end play because it's taken up in the design of the bearing as part of the self alignment requirements. In other words , it has end play because it needs to in order for the bearing to self align, but not in a way that lets the axel move in or out to any noticeable degree.
Not sure if I've explained this very well. I'm not an engineer and never went beyond high school. Did take drafting and machine shop for 3 years - comes in handy sometimes.
Dan c
SL Barn
Daniel G Caron
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
You should be OK with that much play. This axel has things about it that are different than the regular 6 cylinder cars.
The book actually says this about axel pay:
''There should be no end play in installed condition between the outer race of the grooved ball bearing and the brake carrier plate; if so, place a pertinent compensating steel washer between the grooved ball bearing and the supporting tube.''
I take this to mean that any end play should be only that which is in the bearing and should not be very much.
Dan c
Daniel G Caron
-
Weekend Update:
I couldn't pull the locating pins on the 108 axle ends out. They went all the way through the hub, so I just hammered on them until they stuck out the back of the hub instead of the front.
I'm currently working on disconnecting the drive shaft (I like the Haynes "propellor shaft") from the transmission. The access plate is off (lord all those bolts seem like overkill), the mount is out, and now I'm contemplating removing the mount bracket to give me better access to the flex coupling bolts. Any tips on that procedure would be appreciated. I guess I'm going to have to break down and jack up the front of the car too, as it's a bit tight working under there with just the rear raised. Once the driveshaft is out, I'll probably have some questions on replacing the u-joints.
I'm waiting on the oil pan plugs to replace that transfer tube on the rear end. Plus I've got a couple of brake tools coming from samstagsales.com so I can get the hand brake cables transferred.
I'm a bit concerned that I'm not finding many rubber parts that look shot. The car was a bit creaky, so I was hoping that replacing mounts and bushings and the like would tighten and quieten things. Thus far, only the lower coil spring pads really looked worn. I'm replacing most everything anyway, but I'm beginning to wonder how much of a difference it will make.
John
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
Weekend update, part 2.
I got the drive shaft out. Once I removed the transmission mount mounting plate, getting to the flex coupling bolts wasn't tough. I've got major seal problems (please take a look at http://www.johnlivingston.com/280sl_drive_shaft.htm). I'm assuming I should replace the rear transmission seal. Can I do that with it in the car?
Also, I ordered new u-joints not realizing the ones currently installed are staked in place and seemingly not user serviceable. Can a machine shop put the new ones in for me? What are the options here?
Thanks.
John
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
John,
Sounds like you are having way too much fun. Here is some of my experience on the driveshaft, flex disk and trans seal:
The seal is easily replaced once the trans rear flange is off. The flange just pulls off when the nut is removed. The seal is not available as a separate piece, but comes in the complete trans gasket set. Or, a local bearing and seal shop can probably match it up, but slightly thinner (original is 10 mm thick, replacement I found was 9 mm, prolly would have worked, but I got the gasket set instead). Be careful when prying out the old seal, it's easy to damage the surrounding metal. Knock the new one in until it's flush with the rear face of the trans.
Getting the trans flange off requires a pin socket to match the nut inside the flange. Punch back the locking tabs, then remove nut. You may find it loose already, or might be able to use a punch to knock it out. You can also use a punch to knock it in, but a pin socket is more fun/less stress. Use a new locking ring.
One way of making a homemade pin nut socket can be found here:
http://pagoda113.com/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=3846000021&f=3296041521&m=328609527
Alternately, Samstag can probably sell you one.
On the flex disk, I have a personal rule: whenever the flex disk is unbolted, replace it and the nuts and bolts, no matter how new it is. If any of the bolts come loose, they will chew up the driveshaft flange, the trans flange, or both. The disk kit is $90-100, but that's a lot cheaper than a replacement driveshaft (around $450). Also, torque the bolts to spec.
Don't know if you can find a shop to replace your u-joints, and I'm not sure the original u-joints are even available. If you feel they are bad, you may be stuck with getting a replacement driveshaft. I got mine from Driveline Service in Portland, OR. There is at least one other place that sells them, check in Hemmings. The good thing about the one I got from Driveline Service is that the u-joints they use are replaceable, plus it includes a new center bearing.
Good luck, and thanks for all the postings on your project!
George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual
-
At the rate I'm moving forward from the rear axle, I'm beginning to feel I'll start putting parts back in about the time I get the front bumper back from the chrome shop!
My second Samstagsales order came in today. Time to place another one, I guess, for that pin socket.
I was just assuming I should do the u-joints. Is there any easy way to tell if they're shot? The car only has 60K miles on it, so maybe I'm being premature.
I do have the flex disc, bolts, nuts, and washers, so all that will be replaced. I also have the new center bearing and rubber support.
What about the centering sleeve at the transmission end of the drive shaft? It looked like there might me grease leaking around that, although it may just be run off from the transmission seal.
John
quote:
Originally posted by George Davis
John,
Sounds like you are having way too much fun. Here is some of my experience on the driveshaft, flex disk and trans seal:
The seal is easily replaced once the trans rear flange is off. The flange just pulls off when the nut is removed. The seal is not available as a separate piece, but comes in the complete trans gasket set. Or, a local bearing and seal shop can probably match it up, but slightly thinner (original is 10 mm thick, replacement I found was 9 mm, prolly would have worked, but I got the gasket set instead). Be careful when prying out the old seal, it's easy to damage the surrounding metal. Knock the new one in until it's flush with the rear face of the trans.
Getting the trans flange off requires a pin socket to match the nut inside the flange. Punch back the locking tabs, then remove nut. You may find it loose already, or might be able to use a punch to knock it out. You can also use a punch to knock it in, but a pin socket is more fun/less stress. Use a new locking ring.
One way of making a homemade pin nut socket can be found here:
http://pagoda113.com/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=3846000021&f=3296041521&m=328609527
Alternately, Samstag can probably sell you one.
On the flex disk, I have a personal rule: whenever the flex disk is unbolted, replace it and the nuts and bolts, no matter how new it is. If any of the bolts come loose, they will chew up the driveshaft flange, the trans flange, or both. The disk kit is $90-100, but that's a lot cheaper than a replacement driveshaft (around $450). Also, torque the bolts to spec.
Don't know if you can find a shop to replace your u-joints, and I'm not sure the original u-joints are even available. If you feel they are bad, you may be stuck with getting a replacement driveshaft. I got mine from Driveline Service in Portland, OR. There is at least one other place that sells them, check in Hemmings. The good thing about the one I got from Driveline Service is that the u-joints they use are replaceable, plus it includes a new center bearing.
Good luck, and thanks for all the postings on your project!
George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
John,
I was hoping Joe or Dan would jump in here. I don't know anything about the centering sleeve. The beauty of mulching one's driveshaft is that one gets a new centering sleeve with the new driveshaft! Just my 2 cents worth, though: that part of the d/s is greased, so seeing grease there wouldn't bother me. If the centering sleeve seems to fit well and shows no obvious wear, I'd probably assume it's ok. The flex disk kit should include a new rubber seal that goes between the trans flange and the end of the d/s, I assumed it's purpose was mainly to seal the end of the d/s and hold the grease in.
On u-joints, if there is any discernable play anywhere (lateral or rotational), or if there is any roughness as they move, I'd say replace. If they are smooth but stiff, I'd probably reuse. A driveshaft shop might be able to give you a good opinion, too. With only 60,000 miles, I'd expect them to be ok.
George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual
-
I contacted the Driveline Service of Portland folks via e-mail. They quoted me $483 for a new, improved driveshaft, with free ground shipping, and a $75 core charge. Scott there said, "You can check your joints simply by feeling them. If they any major
hitches in them or any slop or visible rust there bad. On a average theses shaft usually go around 200,000 mi. before they need replacement." (typos his - I'm assuming he's referring to the drive shaft joints and not my own).
Mine, er - I mean my driveshaft's - aren't sloppy at all. The more forward one feels fine; the rear one is a bit stiff, but moves smoothly. Guess I'll stay with what I've got for now.
I also e-mailed (are you getting the impression that I'm not a phone fan?) Samstagsales about the pin socket. I gave them the part number out of the BBB. They don't normally stock one, but can order it direct from MB DE for a mere $227! Back to making one from scratch. Her's a quote from Andrew at SS so they'll have equal time: "But maybe you need the Sir Tools M0032, we don't have a cross reference for the MB tool number. Does the nut have 6 slots or 4 slots?" Well, looking at George Davis's homemade unit, I'm going with 4. No details of the Sir Tools M0032 on their website, so I'll have to see what they say when I give them the 4 pins info.
All this e-mailing sure keeps my fingernails clean!
John
quote:
Originally posted by George Davis
John,
I was hoping Joe or Dan would jump in here. I don't know anything about the centering sleeve. The beauty of mulching one's driveshaft is that one gets a new centering sleeve with the new driveshaft! Just my 2 cents worth, though: that part of the d/s is greased, so seeing grease there wouldn't bother me. If the centering sleeve seems to fit well and shows no obvious wear, I'd probably assume it's ok. The flex disk kit should include a new rubber seal that goes between the trans flange and the end of the d/s, I assumed it's purpose was mainly to seal the end of the d/s and hold the grease in.
On u-joints, if there is any discernable play anywhere (lateral or rotational), or if there is any roughness as they move, I'd say replace. If they are smooth but stiff, I'd probably reuse. A driveshaft shop might be able to give you a good opinion, too. With only 60,000 miles, I'd expect them to be ok.
George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
Samstagsales says there are two Sir Tools sockets that might be a match. One is M0029, which has the following dimensions (I'm assuming OD, ID, and width of the pin?) 38mm, 32.25mm, 6mm. (the 1.5 inch tubing translates to 38mm, BTW). The other tool, M0032, has dimensions of 42.50mm, 35.25mm, and 5.5mm.
Sounds like the M0029 is the more likely candidate. Any opinions? Alas, they didn't quote a price, so I don't know yet if this is worth pursuing.
John
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
John,
M0029 is the tool for the gearbox nut and
M0030 fot the diff pinion.
If memory serves me right they were around $50.00 each.
naj
65 230SL
68 280SL
-
Thanks, Naj. Samstagsales did come back to me with at $54.95 quote on the M0029. Has there ever been any discussion of a tool-sharing adjunct to this group? Seems like we're all busy accumulating tools we'll use once or twice. I know there are lots of potential problems with that sort of thing, but maybe if we had some sort of premium membership, where you put some extra dough in as a tool deposit, or some such. I think I'll start a new thread and see how goofy folks think I am.
John
quote:
Originally posted by naj
John,
M0029 is the tool for the gearbox nut and
M0030 fot the diff pinion.
If memory serves me right they were around $50.00 each.
naj
65 230SL
68 280SL
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
Well, John
Mine have been to Ireland since I've had them.
naj
65 230SL
68 280SL
-
quote:
Mine have been to Ireland since I've had them
Yep....and a fine job they did too !!
I still owe you for that BTW !
maybe a crate of Guinness ?? 8)
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
'03 CLK Kompressor
-
I've been pretty much waiting for parts and tools, primarily the pin socket for the transmission and the seal kit for same. The socket arrived yesterday and I promptly removed the pinion nut, although it took an 18" flex handle to budge the darned thing. I was happy to have a strong tool to grip the durned thing with.
I need some tips on getting the rear tranny seal out without screwing anything up. I tried, fairly gently, prying it out but didn't get it to budge. How much trouble can I get myself into pulling that rear cover off and getting the seal out on the bench? I've got a new gasket for the cover.
Once the new seal is in, I should start putting parts back in, rather than taking more out. The weather is cooperating a bit more, plus I have most of next week off, so I'm hoping to move forward on this a bit more quickly.
John "Who Just Ordered a New Soft Top and Better Get Something Finished Soon" Livingston
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
I had the same trouble getting out a stubborn seal. Someone recommended buying a "Seal Remover" which I did at a local factors. I had it out in about 30 seconds. Its almost "T" shaped but gets behind the seal without damaging anything. Cheap at about $5 !!
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
'03 CLK Kompressor
-
I did get one of the "T" shaped seal removers. I still couldn't get the darned thing out, so I pulled the rear transmission cover. The seal popped right out on my bench. I think I would've had a real problem getting the new seal installed in situ anyway. It did go in very smoothly using my bench vise as a press.
I've reassembled the rear cover, with new seal, new gasket, and hopefully all the shims in the proper places. It marks, at long last, the beginning of switching all my ratchets to "tighten" instead of "loosen." I was hoping to replace the speedo cable while down there, but figured I might as well wait until I've taken the proper measurements with the current one in place before sending the speedo unit off to be recalibrated.
Time to put the transmission yoke, etc., back together, and then on to sliding in the drive shaft, with new new center bearing. One source I saw said the yoke should be installed with some lock tite, even though you use that locking washer on the pin nut. Any thoughts on that?
Any tips on making sure I do a good job with the flexible coupling install? I do have all new parts for that as well.
After that, I've got a new rear transmission mount to put in and then should be able to move farther rearward.
Thanks.
John
quote:
Originally posted by Ben
I had the same trouble getting out a stubborn seal. Someone recommended buying a "Seal Remover" which I did at a local factors. I had it out in about 30 seconds. Its almost "T" shaped but gets behind the seal without damaging anything. Cheap at about $5 !!
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
'03 CLK Kompressor
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) trans_cover_in2.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/johnlivingston/200441614548_trans_cover_in2.jpg)
79.71 KB
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
I've never use lock tight on amything. I use more anti sieze than anything else. I've seen these nuts where they were loose but I think they weren't tightened up to begin with. The thread is very fine and will really snug down with the big wrenches you need. It won't come back off easily or at all.
Dan c
Daniel G Caron
-
I skipped the Lok-Tite on the yoke nut and just snugged it down per the torque specs in Haynes. I also mashed the lock washer back against it, too, so I'd be surprised if it budged.
I've got the flexible coupling in and the drive shaft attached. The trans mount bracket is bolted in (I just remembered I didn't tightened the two upper nuts - best go do that!). I'm at the point of having just put the mount back in and am scratching my head over how the big bolt that goes through the trans cover plate and into the mount sandwiches the various parts I seem to have left over. Please look at the attachment. There's a brass-colored shaped metal washer that mates up to the bottom of the mount. There's a very thick metal washer. There was also a rubber washer that's pretty much shot. I'll attach that to my next post. Are these rubber dingies available, and where does it fit in in the sequence of washers, etc.?
John
quote:
Originally posted by Benz Dr.
I've never use lock tight on amything. I use more anti sieze than anything else. I've seen these nuts where they were loose but I think they weren't tightened up to begin with. The thread is very fine and will really snug down with the big wrenches you need. It won't come back off easily or at all.
Dan c
Daniel G Caron
quote:
Originally posted by Benz Dr.
I've never use lock tight on amything. I use more anti sieze than anything else. I've seen these nuts where they were loose but I think they weren't tightened up to begin with. The thread is very fine and will really snug down with the big wrenches you need. It won't come back off easily or at all.
Dan c
Daniel G Caron
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) trans_mount2.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/johnlivingston/2004418142833_trans_mount2.jpg)
55.7 KB
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
Here's the shot of the rubber washer/grommet.
thanks.
John
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) trans_mount_washer.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/johnlivingston/200441814324_trans_mount_washer.jpg)
47.94 KB
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
John,
Now here's what you need to 'drive' that 3.27 diff:
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) V8_5002.JPG (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/naj/200441944718_V8_5002.JPG)
45.76 KB
naj
65 230SL
68 280SL
-
Lovely! I like the body color, too! Now, just where did you hide the power brake booster?
(I'd actually toyed with the idea of getting a complete 118 4.5 and seeing how tight a squeeze the engine would be.)
John
quote:
Originally posted by naj
John,
Now here's what you need to 'drive' that 3.27 diff:
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) V8_5002.JPG (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/naj/200441944718_V8_5002.JPG)
45.76 KB
naj
65 230SL
68 280SL
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
Its over the other side with a blue label (right hand drive car!)
naj
65 230SL
68 280SL
-
Come on Naj........tell us more ???
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
'03 CLK Kompressor
-
Hi, Ben,
The car belongs to John Haynes who runs a very nice Merc garage on the South Coast (of England).I attended a 107 workshop he ran last Saturday.
He bought a 230 body shell (where the previous owner had sold all the running gear) and put in what he could find. Originally it had a 450 iron block but now it has a 5.0 litre V8 with 4 speed auto (This engine is lighter than a straight six pagoda engine). Rear axle is from a 280SE 3.5. Sorry didn't ask what ratio.
The car was in a corner in his show room so I could only take pictures of the engine (with his permission of course!). And its NOT for sale.
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) V8_5004.JPG (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/naj/2004419115914_V8_5004.JPG)
36.07 KB
naj
65 230SL
68 280SL
-
Jeeeeez !
I heard about the tech session on the Club site, somebody needs to get him to write an article !
Think you could twist his arm Naj ??
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
'03 CLK Kompressor
-
Weekend update #43, or something close.
I finally got the compensating spring back in place. I've got a pic somewhere of what I ended up doing to get it in. I'll post that fascinating tidbit tomorrow.
I finished up with the transmission mount and have the plate back in place.
I'm trying to replace all the rubber bits on the locating strut. I've removed the bolts and one nut on the right hand side, but the assembly seems to hang up internally. I've posted some pictures to this page http://www.johnlivingston.com/280sl_locating_strut.htm
hoping someone will look at it and give me some tips.
Once that's sorted out, I have to get the hand brake cables attached to the shoes, and then it'll be time to lift the durned thing back into place.
John
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
Hey John,
The part number of the little rubber bush for the locating strut is 111-351-04-48
I went to the K&K maunfacturing site and used their OLD catalogue setting and extracted the part number from there. Price was $15.55 USD.
Bob (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto
-
Thanks for the part number, Bob, I'll get those ordered pronto.
I'm still having a headache getting the locating strut out so I can replace the rubber bits. There were four bolts and one nut holding it in. These have all been removed. I also removed the end that attaches to the axle so I'd have no trouble pushing the rod from the driver's side. Something is still hanging up internally that prevents the bottom portion of the unit to move more than about 1/4 of an inch. This is centered around the protruding stud that the one bolt screwed down on.
Any ideas on this? I can get a closer shot if the previous ones weren't clear enough.
Thanks.
John
quote:
Originally posted by hands_aus
Hey John,
The part number of the little rubber bush for the locating strut is 111-351-04-48
I went to the K&K maunfacturing site and used their OLD catalogue setting and extracted the part number from there. Price was $15.55 USD.
Bob (Brisbane,Australia)
RHD,1967 early 250 SL, auto
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
John,
I replaced the strut bushings a year or so ago, and it hung up the same way. I had to remove the big nut on the upper end of the strut, pull off the upper bushing and then pull the strut shaft out, downwards toward the diff. Reassembly was the reverse, basically assembling in place.
Use a good pentrating oil or something on the nut and strut threads to lubricate them as you remove or tighten the nut, it's easy to deform the end with the screwdriver slot.
Good luck!
George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual
-
George,
Thanks a bunch for the tip. I was avoiding unscrewing that nut as I'd already had trouble with it and had deformed the slotted end to a degree. I did put penetrating oil on it last night, just in case. I'll try gripping the bolt with padded Vise Grips to see if I can break the nut free w/o and further distortion of the slot.
John
quote:
Originally posted by George Davis
John,
I replaced the strut bushings a year or so ago, and it hung up the same way. I had to remove the big nut on the upper end of the strut, pull off the upper bushing and then pull the strut shaft out, downwards toward the diff. Reassembly was the reverse, basically assembling in place.
Use a good pentrating oil or something on the nut and strut threads to lubricate them as you remove or tighten the nut, it's easy to deform the end with the screwdriver slot.
Good luck!
George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
I was unable to get the outside nut off the locating strut and mangled the threads up pretty good trying. In frustration, I kept trying to pry the assembly out from different angles with a large screwdriver. It finally popped out and is sitting, fully disassembled, on my bench. Hallelujah!
I’m assuming that the strut rod is supposed to have that bend in it. I’ll get it reassembled this evening.
Now it’s time to get the new hand brake bits installed on the axle. If that goes well, I should be able to lift the axle back into place this weekend.
Or not!
John
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
One more thought on the strut:
This is one place that an impact wrench would've saved the day, I think (mine was stolen last winter, alas). A deep 19mm socket and an impact probably would've had that outer nut off in no time (although clearance under there might've been a problem).
I'm attaching my Rube Goldberg solution on the compensating spring. I used spring-lowering clamps I got cheap on ebay to compress it a bit (it's a John Olson progressive spring), and then put a Vise Grip on the pivoting saddle to help me compress it the last bit before sliding the bolt back in place. Looks messy, but it worked pretty well.
John
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) comp_spring-sm.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/johnlivingston/20044294465_comp_spring-sm.jpg)
57.24 KB
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
John,
glad you got the strut out. Mine has a bend in it, too, although I don't know if it's supposed to be bent or not. I'll consider yours as evidence that the bend is supposed to be there.
George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual
-
Hello John,
I was just looking at your photo. Be careful, when the swing axle is hinged to the full down position, the internal axle assembly is up against and stressing a delicate part of the differential casting. This somewhat delicate lip is under the large rubber boot clamp. I have seen a sudden jolt actually break off the casting! If you feel through the boot at the bottom you will see what I mean. When the axle is installed in the car, the swing axle is prevented from travelling this far by the right rear shock absorber which acts as a limit to its travel.
Anoter person on this list recently discovered that their newly installed differential had accidentially be cracked in this manner and had to find another differential.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
-
Thanks, Joe. I've been careful about not letting it swing abruptly since I read the cautions on the list. However, that doesn't mean I didn't do something stupid when uncrating it way back when. I'll feel under the boot and see if anything feels broken.
John
quote:
Originally posted by ja17
Hello John,
I was just looking at your photo. Be careful, when the swing axle is hinged to the full down position, the internal axle assembly is up against and stressing a delicate part of the differential casting. This somewhat delicate lip is under the large rubber boot clamp. I have seen a sudden jolt actually break off the casting! If you feel through the boot at the bottom you will see what I mean. When the axle is installed in the car, the swing axle is prevented from travelling this far by the right rear shock absorber which acts as a limit to its travel.
Anoter person on this list recently discovered that their newly installed differential had accidentially be cracked in this manner and had to find another differential.
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
I don't think the strut rod is bent. It should be straight or it was bent a log time ago. Could be why you had trouble getting it out.
Dan Caron
SL Barn
Daniel G Caron
-
The angle shown in the BBB drawing doesn't eliminate the possibility that it was pre-bent. Looks like a factory job, but I'm sure not the expert. I should've taken a pic before I put it back in! I suspect, though, that the bend will allow it to line up better with the mount on the differential housing.
I hate to jinx myself, but I think the axle assembly is going back in today!
John
quote:
Originally posted by Benz Dr.
I don't think the strut rod is bent. It should be straight or it was bent a log time ago. Could be why you had trouble getting it out.
Dan Caron
SL Barn
Daniel G Caron
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
I've got the axle-end of the hand brake mechanism working smoothly. I dragged the axle back under the car but probably have to wait until I get another pair of hands to help get it on the hydraulic jack and to help steady it as it's raised.
I was looking at the manual and it said to remove the bump stops and then, once the axle's in place, raise each side up until it hits the body. Is that necessary if the axle has not been disassembled?
I'm attaching a shot of the bend in the strut rod. It's not at the best angle, but you should get the idea. Let me know if it looks different than yours.
Thanks.
John
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) strut-rod-bend.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/johnlivingston/2004535585_strut-rod-bend.jpg)
76.55 KB
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
It's bent for sure.
Dan Caron
SL Barn
Daniel G Caron
-
Darn! Anyone have a good, straight, used strut rod they want to sell me? The new ones ain't cheap!
John
quote:
Originally posted by Benz Dr.
It's bent for sure.
Dan Caron
SL Barn
Daniel G Caron
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
Well, I finally got the new, beautifully-straight strut rod. I put it in last night, with the new rubber bits. The end that attaches to the rear housing pushes up hard against the opening, at about 10:30 (see attachment). I'm assuming it should be roughly centered in the opening. Any way to fix that? I've got a nice, new rubber grommet to fit over the hole and it won't go the way things are now. I don't see any deformed parts/areas that would cause the rod to be so off center.
Thanks.
John
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) strut-rod-offcenter.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/johnlivingston/200452752621_strut-rod-offcenter.jpg)
64.58 KB
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
John,
If you tightened up the nut on the other end, I'd guess it's just the way those odd bushings squished out. When you put the whole assembly (diff and connector to diff) together, I suggest loosening the nut first, install the boot, connect it all up to align, and then retighten.
George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual
-
Thanks, George. I'll give that a try.
Any suggestions on how I safely lift the rear back into place? I lowered it with my floor jack. I tried lifting it back the same way, with the jack's lifting plate in the concavity on the underside of the differential, but it was pretty unstable.
We're heading out of town for the three day weekend tomorrow. It may thus be a few days before I reply to any posts.
John
quote:
Originally posted by George Davis
John,
If you tightened up the nut on the other end, I'd guess it's just the way those odd bushings squished out. When you put the whole assembly (diff and connector to diff) together, I suggest loosening the nut first, install the boot, connect it all up to align, and then retighten.
George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
Time for the four-month update!
I broke down and bought a transmission jack adapter from Harbor Freight. They - as usual - took their sweet time getting it to me, but it was durned cheap (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=507)
Alas, the saddle hole (!) on my old jack wasn't large enough for the adapter, which requires an opening of 1 1/4". Therefore, I had to buy another jack (Craftsman 3 ton, with stands, for $99). Having the second jack on hand proved handy as I used the old one to lift one axle housing while sliding the new jack & adapter underneath. I needed my son's second pair of hands to steady the axle while doing this, but it all went pretty smoothly.
I'll attach a pic of the axle resting on the jack adapter. I'm just using the flat surface, without the ears and chain. So far, so good! (I keep getting timed out on attaching the image. I'll try doing that separately.)
John
quote:
Originally posted by johnlivingston
Thanks, George. I'll give that a try.
Any suggestions on how I safely lift the rear back into place? I lowered it with my floor jack. I tried lifting it back the same way, with the jack's lifting plate in the concavity on the underside of the differential, but it was pretty unstable.
We're heading out of town for the three day weekend tomorrow. It may thus be a few days before I reply to any posts.
John
quote:
Originally posted by George Davis
John,
If you tightened up the nut on the other end, I'd guess it's just the way those odd bushings squished out. When you put the whole assembly (diff and connector to diff) together, I suggest loosening the nut first, install the boot, connect it all up to align, and then retighten.
George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
Well, try as I might the image wouldn't upload. I put it on a web page in case you're still curious.
http://www.johnlivingston.com/axle_jack.htm
I'd be tempted to put some sort of sticky surface on the transmission jack adapter surface to help keep things from shifting around. Maybe that sort of thing you line tool drawers with would work.
John
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
I installed the compensating spring after the axle was in place - but there are often different ways of doing things.
1969 280SL,Signal Red, A/T, P/S, A/C, Both tops. Ret. engr.
-
I think the generally accepted way of doing it is your method. I had a real hard time getting the compensating spring in as none of my compressors worked very well on that size spring. I was afraid that it would be a nightmare getting it back in with the axle in place. Having it fully extended like this is not encouraged, I know, but I have tried to be careful about not over-stressing it. I'm hoping to get it bolted back in sufficiently this morning that I can get some jack stands under the axle ends and lift it back to a more normal position.
John
quote:
Originally posted by theengineer
I installed the compensating spring after the axle was in place - but there are often different ways of doing things.
1969 280SL,Signal Red, A/T, P/S, A/C, Both tops. Ret. engr.
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
the transmission adapter and jack combination worked beautifully to lift the axle back in place, while allowing me to move the unit around to keep it centered in the opening. It's now got the main, center bolt back in place. I've jacked up both axle ends enough to take some of the strain off, and I've put in the new shocks. I went with KYB just to try something different. Time to go find the bottom shock bolts and get them torqued in. I'll attach (I hope) a picture showing the adapter and jack a bit more clearly, albeit with a lot of distracting clutter around it.
John
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) shocks2.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/johnlivingston/2004623152113_shocks2.jpg)
77.03 KB
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
I got the axle alignment jig soldered up (sorry for the lousy joints!) this morning and it looks like the unit is where it should be. I'll try to attach a pic of the jig. It took one five foot stick of half-inch tube to put together.
Anyone have any tips on how to get the locating strut back in place and tightened, keeping my alignment as it now stands? It seems that I have to pretty much have everything back in place before tightening the 19mm outboard nut, but then when I tighten that and compress the bushings, it'll tend to pull the axle toward the passenger side and thus out of alignment.
John
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) axle_jig2.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/johnlivingston/200462513420_axle_jig2.jpg)
56.31 KB
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
John,
I think you're in for a bit of fun. The locating strut is adjustable, and that adjustment is what you use to center the axle. The outboard end of the strut has a screwdriver slot in it for turning it to adjust the length. You have to loosen the locknut that secures the strut to the lower piece.
BUT, with the outboard nut tight it's quite hard to turn and when I did it, the end of the strut got all bent up where it's slotted. It's pretty weak there. So my suggestion is: with the big outboard nut loose, adjust the length of the strut somewhat, then tighten the big outboard nut and snug up the locknut and see where you end up. Repeat until it's centered, loosening the big nut each time.
I've enjoyed reading your axle replacement saga, and am now convinced that I can live with my 3.92 ratio!
George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual
-
Thanks George, for the words of encouragement (?!). I think I'll take a nap and then try fiddling as you suggest. Luckily I got the mangling of the slotted end out of my system with the original strut rod.
Don't let my epic novel discourage you; it took me something like 13 years to get my BA!
John
quote:
Originally posted by George Davis
John,
I think you're in for a bit of fun. The locating strut is adjustable, and that adjustment is what you use to center the axle. The outboard end of the strut has a screwdriver slot in it for turning it to adjust the length. You have to loosen the locknut that secures the strut to the lower piece.
BUT, with the outboard nut tight it's quite hard to turn and when I did it, the end of the strut got all bent up where it's slotted. It's pretty weak there. So my suggestion is: with the big outboard nut loose, adjust the length of the strut somewhat, then tighten the big outboard nut and snug up the locknut and see where you end up. Repeat until it's centered, loosening the big nut each time.
I've enjoyed reading your axle replacement saga, and am now convinced that I can live with my 3.92 ratio!
George Davis
'69 280 SL Euro manual
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
First of all you have to get the axel square. To do this you need to get the centre pin 90 degrees to the axel shafts so that it sits in the car without any undue stress.
What I do is lay the axel on a level floor and shim up the axel until both axel tubes are level by using a carpenters square. Then I move the center pin until it's straight up and down. Although it may be out a degree or two it's still a lot closer than by eye. I never actually change the length of the cross strut from its original position as I believe that dimension shouldn't change if the rest of the car is straight. A quick check on an alignment rack should be able to tell you if the rear wheels are within spec.
I'm pretty sure there were tools available from the factory that were used to check the basic geomerty of the chassis but no one would have that now, or at least no dealership would.
Daniel G Caron
-
John
You and I are running somewhat in parallel here. I just today soldered up the same alignment tool to locate the rear axle. I had re-installed my axle some time ago but hadn't gotten around to doing any of the alignments. The car has not been mobile during this time since I had a host of other things I was woking on including the installtion of an A/C system. I did venture out of the driveway and around the block the other day to check some things out and I could tell that both rear and front alignment needs to be adjusted so now I'm on to that. I did notice from your post that you had lifted your rear axle in w/o the trailing arms attached. I had not considered that and had instead lifted my entire rear axle, trailing arms and all into place in one shot. Got to tell you, locating the bushings on the front end of the trailing arms where they mate with the body was a real pain especially since I did not have the centering cones that MB shows as a tool to aid in doing this. It occurs to me that you may have a much easier time doing this the way you are since you will be able to simply jack the rear of the trailng arm up into position on the rear axle and the mating "slot" will be able to hold it in position while you screw down those two big fittings on either side.
George Des
-
To locate the trailing arm bushings I used a correctly sized pipe wrench that went through the large holes in the trailing arms and the rubber doughnuts, and onto the bolts on the chassis. It allowed me to manipulate the trailing arms (using the wrench as a kind of joystick) while a helper was moving the whole rear axle assembly back and forth a bit. Doing it this way made it fairly easy.
Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
-
I'm still working on the locating strut, darn it! I finally worked a c-clamp onto the axle-side strut bushings and compressed them enough to get the larger bolt threaded. I couldn't put much torque on the smaller bolt as about half the aluminum it threads into came out when I disassembled it. I may go ahead and install the trailing arms as the axle now hangs toward the rear, which means I have to lever it forward with a crowbar while trying to thread the strut rod back in. I'm getting pretty tired of heavy metal things falling on my face!
The hang up with the strut rod is getting it to thread in far enough to allow me to bolt the black metal plate back in place. I did avoid mangling the slotted end of the new rod by threading the 19mm on part way to keep the end from deforming. I'm about to back the rod back out after marking it to see how far it's penetrating the aluminum assembly.
John
quote:
Originally posted by George Des
John
You and I are running somewhat in parallel here. I just today soldered up the same alignment tool to locate the rear axle. I had re-installed my axle some time ago but hadn't gotten around to doing any of the alignments. The car has not been mobile during this time since I had a host of other things I was woking on including the installtion of an A/C system. I did venture out of the driveway and around the block the other day to check some things out and I could tell that both rear and front alignment needs to be adjusted so now I'm on to that. I did notice from your post that you had lifted your rear axle in w/o the trailing arms attached. I had not considered that and had instead lifted my entire rear axle, trailing arms and all into place in one shot. Got to tell you, locating the bushings on the front end of the trailing arms where they mate with the body was a real pain especially since I did not have the centering cones that MB shows as a tool to aid in doing this. It occurs to me that you may have a much easier time doing this the way you are since you will be able to simply jack the rear of the trailng arm up into position on the rear axle and the mating "slot" will be able to hold it in position while you screw down those two big fittings on either side.
George Des
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
Yeah! The strut rod assembly is all back together. I had to sort of build it up from the axle side out, but with a bunch of pushing, pulling, and a modest amount of swearing, that component is done. Alignment still checks out nicely, too.
I'll probably tackle the trailing arms this evening, and then the brakes tomorrow.
Ever the optimist!
John
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
Why would you try and put it back together using known damaged parts? If the cross strut end has damaged threads get a new one.
I always put the whole axel together before I put it into the car - it becomes more difficult after th axel is mounted in the car. Earlier cars are hard enough to install but these ones have the added difficulty of the compensating spring forcing the axels. I usually place a 2x4 or piece of wood under the axel to help support the weight. I leave the cross strut in the car but not tight and use a floor jack under the diff to raise the axel into place. The centre pin should be fixed into place first and then the cross strut needs to be started. his best done while raising the axel into place. It's nearly impossible to do this by yourself - I have but not in a long time.
Daniel G Caron
-
Keep in mind this is the first one of these I've done!
Re the locating strut: I'll attach a picture of the part in question, showing which threads are stripped (tried three times, but got a "session timed out" each attempt. Will try it again this evening). I didn't get a new one as it had taken more than a month and nearly $200 (with shipping) to get the strut rod. The assembly had been untouched as long as I've had the car, so it seems to have worked okay damaged for twenty-plus years. You have any idea what the aluminum part costs? It sure seems like sticking in a steel insert would be a better solution than buying a whole new unit. Is it just the SLs that have it made of aluminum? Seems a poor choice to shave a few ounces.
Re putting the axle back in as a unit: Now you tell me! I took the axle out and have been putting it back in pretty much as the manual states. I don’t think I had any suggestions to the contrary from the group. Yes, I’ve done it single-handed (although my son did help me lift it on to the jack initially). My one change to the procedure was pulling and reinstalling the compensating spring with the axle out of the car, which some folks haven’t been thrilled with
Right now I have the driver’s side brakes done, both disc and hand. I’m about to give the trailing arm on that side a go. It’ll probably be tomorrow before I get to the passenger side and get the drive shaft reconnected. We’re heading out of town Thursday, so I’m hoping to get it all bolted together for a short run before then. I got the shifter bushings finished a couple of weeks ago, so I may even be able to get it in gear!
Jumping ahead a bit: once I can get the front end in the air I hope to get the clutch hydraulics replaced and maybe do the tach cable. Then I'll take the measurements necessary and send the speedo off to Palo Alto to get it recalibrated, saving the new speedo cable for when it gets back.
What a dreamer!
John
Yes, there were times, I’m sure you knew
When I bit off more than I could chew.
But through it all, when there was doubt,
I ate it up and spit it out.
I faced it all and I stood tall;
And did it their way.
quote:
Originally posted by Benz Dr.
Why would you try and put it back together using known damaged parts? If the cross strut end has damaged threads get a new one.
I always put the whole axel together before I put it into the car - it becomes more difficult after th axel is mounted in the car. Earlier cars are hard enough to install but these ones have the added difficulty of the compensating spring forcing the axels. I usually place a 2x4 or piece of wood under the axel to help support the weight. I leave the cross strut in the car but not tight and use a floor jack under the diff to raise the axel into place. The centre pin should be fixed into place first and then the cross strut needs to be started. his best done while raising the axel into place. It's nearly impossible to do this by yourself - I have but not in a long time.
Daniel G Caron
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
Hey you didn't ask me.
The only jobs I've never done on a 113 are rebuild injection pump, rebuild power steering pump and rebuild auto trans. I won't take the pinion shaft out of a rear axel - you loose the setting between the gears. They REALLY whine if not set up closely.
I'd be inclined towards putting the compensating spring in before you get it up into place. Anything you can do now is less effort later.
The aluminum shackel is about 20 bucks list. All the cars from that time had them so a good used one should be readily available.
Daniel G Caron
-
$20! I didn't think any part on that car cost $20.
Let me try to upload the darned picture anyway, since I went to the trouble to take it.
Not much new to report. I spent time tightening up some of the brake connections. I'm still hoping to get the remaining brakes and the trailing arms done tomorrow. I'm getting pumped enough that I'm having trouble sleeping. I should be out in the garage now, but I don't think the neighbors would like what I wear for PJs.
John
quote:
Originally posted by Benz Dr.
Hey you didn't ask me.
The only jobs I've never done on a 113 are rebuild injection pump, rebuild power steering pump and rebuild auto trans. I won't take the pinion shaft out of a rear axel - you loose the setting between the gears. They REALLY whine if not set up closely.
I'd be inclined towards putting the compensating spring in before you get it up into place. Anything you can do now is less effort later.
The aluminum shackel is about 20 bucks list. All the cars from that time had them so a good used one should be readily available.
Daniel G Caron
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) strutthreads2.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/johnlivingston/2004628235232_strutthreads2.jpg)
45.46 KB
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
Driver's side is done! I had a heck of a time with the bushing to the front of the trailing arm popping out as I'd jack the arm home. I finally got it to stay put by liberally applying GB Cable Ease wire-pulling lubricant (I use that stuff all the time) and a small block of wood on a second jack to push the protruding bits of bushing home. I also used a scissors jack between the back of the differential and gas tank to help angle the axle forward and thus make it easier to line up the forward end of the trailing arm. I've - of course - got a picture of it all bolted up, but am having the usual timed-out uploading problems.
On to the passenger side. It's going to be a bit tougher as that side is fairly close to the garage wall. Brakes first, then trailing arm.
John
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
I've come to a grinding halt on the passenger side. I had left the old (cut by the seller) hand brake cable attached on that side to help remind me how it attached, etc. Well, I've removed the retaining clip but the cable housing is rusted solidly in place. I've tried hammering, vice (make that "vise") grips, penetrating oil, and heat, without any progress. The current plan is to hack saw off most of it on the differential side and then, maybe, drilling it out. Seems like I have sufficient access to do that, but I'm less than totally optimistic.
Any suggestions?
John
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
If you can heat it with a Oxy/Acetylene torch to loosen it up.
-
I finished hack sawing and drilling the old handbrake housing. The biggest bit I had on hand was 7/16, which isn't big enough. I've got a half incher around somewhere, but my calipers measure the OD of the cable end that fits in the hole to be 16mm or .629 inch (if I'm reading that right). I fiddled a bit on the calculator and it seems the nearest fractional size would be maybe 41/64! 11/16ths works out to be .6875. I doubt I'm gonna find any of those at Lowes! Luckily the metal seems relatively soft and isn't too tough to drill.
Fun!
John
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
I tried the Harry Homeowner mapp gas routine, but I guess it wasn't hot enough.
The picture of the damage I've done with hack saw and drill bit is now attached for your amusement. Seems if I get it drilled out just a bit more, it should knock out.
John
quote:
Originally posted by graphic66
If you can heat it with a Oxy/Acetylene torch to loosen it up.
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) drilling_cable1b.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/johnlivingston/2004629195752_drilling_cable1b.jpg)
50.01 KB
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
Lowes had a 5/8" bit (15.9mm) which worked great clearing out the remaining old hand brake cable housing end (after I bought a new drill to handle the 1/2" shank).
Back to putting the passenger-side brakes in, then maybe the trailing arm (it's my son's birthday, so we're off to Spiderman II and other diversions this evening).
John
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
We're about to hit the highway for the 4th of July weekend. Alas, it won't be in the SL.
I did finish getting the passenger-side brakes back in place. I was feeling confident enough that I hooked up the battery charger and put the pressure bleeder on the master cylinder. I got most of the air out of the rear passenger-side caliper before noticing that fluid was leaking rather rapidly out from under the brake reservoir's front cap. Time to order new O rings or gaskets.
The passenger-side trailing arm is bolted to the axle, but I ran out of time before I could get it bolted to the underside of the car. It seems to be lining up pretty decently, at any rate.
So, we'll be returning Monday and I'm hoping to at least get the trailing arm done and maybe the drive shaft reconnected. I think I have enough brake pedal to get a brief test ride in once those are done.
John
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
It works! Just back from moving it all of about 30 feet. The poor thing fired right up, after sitting for five months. I need to reattach the soon-to-be-replaced resonator as it's just hanging from the head pipe. I pulled the car out of the garage so I could get better access to the passenger side.
So far, no weird clunks, squeaks, etc.
Spent yesterday changing the differential fluid, bleeding the brakes the conventional way, attaching the passenger-side trailing arm, the hand brake cables (the lever isn't ratcheting and thus won't stay up - I'll have to take that apart and get it unfrozen)., and the driveshaft bolts. Today I just needed to do the rocking back and forth to adjust the drive shaft, tighten those center bearing bolts and the slip nut, and air up one of the tires.
I'll get the exhaust anchored and then will take it for a short spin. Then I'll jack up the front end, change the engine and transmission oil, install the new clutch master and slave cylinders, and then see about it getting it inspected. At some point I'll give it a wash, too, as it sure is dusty.
I'm working up a few web pages summarizing the job. I've got the tool list pretty much done and will post the link here shortly.
Next I need to finish the heater levers, get the radio hooked up, and figure out where to drill the hole in the fender for the antenna. Then, let's see, it's the convertible top install, new carpeting...
Thanks to all for the great help and encouragement (I hope I'm not being premature!). More soon.
John
Download Attachment: (http://images/icon_paperclip.gif) fertig2.jpg (http://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/johnlivingston/2004779331_fertig2.jpg)
61.21 KB
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
seems like your nearly there John, I sure hope it was worth the effort, I reckon it WILL be and we're all waiting with baited breath to see what the RPM's are on the Freeway !
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
'03 CLK Kompressor
-
Right now the front end is up on ramps while I'm draining the crankcase. I was interested to see how much clutch slipping I had to do to get it up on the ramps. Seemed pretty close to normal - no clouds of clutch smoke so far!
John
quote:
Originally posted by Ben
seems like your nearly there John, I sure hope it was worth the effort, I reckon it WILL be and we're all waiting with baited breath to see what the RPM's are on the Freeway !
Regards,
Ben in Ireland.
'64 230SL 4sp.
'03 CLK Kompressor
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
Just back from the first, brief drive . No highway miles yet as the access panels are still off the transmission tunnel, dash parts are strewn all over the interior, and it has less than half the exhaust system in place. Still, I like it! Starting in first gear seems much more normal. You need to work the clutch a tad bit more than before, but then previously I could start it from idle without giving it gas if it was on a level surface. There's none of the sense that you're getting a truck underway. First and second seem much more flexible for normal motoring. I'm going to give it a bath, organize the interior parts, and then see if I can get it to my local mechanic for a state inspection and exhaust install. Once that's done, I'll give the highway a try.
Love those new shifter bushings!
John
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
Just a note John: the highway RPM's will appear to be exactly the same as before the swap! I noticed this when I changed the rear end on my car from 4.08 to 3.69 two years ago. The reason is that the speedometer is linked directly to the drivetrain. Before the swap, your tach probably showed e.g. 4,200 RPM's at 75 MPH; it will now show the exact same value with the 3.27 rear end. Only, you will be actually going 93 MPH. The speedometer will have to be modified to the different rear end ratio. Before the swap on my car, the speedo read 5% too fast (calibrated on an Amsterdam-Stuttgart trip). Now, after the swap, it reads 5% too low (calibrated yesterday on an Amsterdam-The Hague trip. And indeed the change from 4.08 to 3.69 is about 10%).
Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
-
Thanks, Cees. I'm afraid I've been around long enough that I anticipated the fixed speed/rpm relationship. (A cop explained it to me nearly 40 years ago when I put oversized tires on the back of my VW beetle!) I figured I'd hit a steady, nearly-legal highway speed, note the rpm, and then calculate my speed by timing the rate at which the mile posts are passing by.
I hope to order some new tires fairly soon since the ones on the car now are more than 20 years old! Once those are mounted, I'll see about getting the speedo professionally recalibrated.
I'm still working on the tool list to post to the web (and eventually some pages and pictures describing the process). I recall seeing some home-made drive shaft wrenches on eBay that I thought were made by a Pagoda group member. Does anyone recall who that was? I'd like to include them on my parts list if some are still available.
John
quote:
Originally posted by cees klumper
Just a note John: the highway RPM's will appear to be exactly the same as before the swap! I noticed this when I changed the rear end on my car from 4.08 to 3.69 two years ago. The reason is that the speedometer is linked directly to the drivetrain. Before the swap, your tach probably showed e.g. 4,200 RPM's at 75 MPH; it will now show the exact same value with the 3.27 rear end. Only, you will be actually going 93 MPH. The speedometer will have to be modified to the different rear end ratio. Before the swap on my car, the speedo read 5% too fast (calibrated on an Amsterdam-Stuttgart trip). Now, after the swap, it reads 5% too low (calibrated yesterday on an Amsterdam-The Hague trip. And indeed the change from 4.08 to 3.69 is about 10%).
Cees Klumper in Amsterdam
'69 white 280 SL automatic
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
A brief update:
I dropped the car off yesterday morning for state inspection and exhaust install. The mechanic is having a tough time with the connecting pipes from the resonator to the muffler not lining up right (that's what I get for buying Swedish parts?). He claims he'll be able to correct it with enough heat. I just hope all the undercoating won't be burned off the car in the process.
It flunked state inspection for two reasons:
1. it needs tie rod ends on the driver's side (I think they'd replaced the passenger side ones a couple of years back). I've got those ordered.
2. the mechanic can't figure out how to get the windshield defrost to work (which apparently is a state requirement) with no heater levers in place! I guess I'll stop by there Monday morning and shift the heater cables to the proper position. I sure hope he hasn't been monkeying around in the dash.
I did get to enjoy the new ratio a bit more on the drive to the shop (which is within walking distance, so it wasn't much). I used to have to really concentrate to start the car off smoothly, and I've been driving stick shifts for a lot of years. Now you just motor off, without any extra effort on your part. Sweet!
I'm hoping to get the heap back by Tuesday, at which point I'll do the highway RPM check and let you know.
John
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
I never replace tie rod ends and change the whole assembly instead. Complete assy is about 40 bucks.
The new parts make it easy to adjust the front end. If I have it at home I remove the old unit in one piece and then I place it on top of a peiece of wood. I pund a nail in the wood and then another one at the other end and then bend the nails until they just touch the tie rod ends.
Adjust the new assembly so that it just slides through the nails and the car will drive straight enough you may not need any alignment work or just a minor adjustment.
Daniel G Caron
-
quote:
Originally posted by Benz Dr.
"I never replace tie rod ends and change the whole assembly instead. Complete assy is about 40 bucks."
I hadn't thought about that. What a great idea. I found a pair of complete tie rods on ebay for about $60 with shipping.
"The new parts make it easy to adjust the front end. If I have it at home I remove the old unit in one piece and then I place it on top of a peiece of wood. I pund a nail in the wood and then another one at the other end and then bend the nails until they just touch the tie rod ends.
Adjust the new assembly so that it just slides through the nails and the car will drive straight enough you may not need any alignment work or just a minor adjustment."
This certainly sounds like a good plan. But it does beg the question, what do you do when you're not at home?
Thanks!
John
Daniel G Caron
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
I have changed the rear axle on my '69 280SL from a 4.08 to a 3.27 and have now driven it a few thousand miles. I have an automatic. At 62.5 MPH (100 KM/h) my engine turns 3000 rpm instead of 3800. The speedometer now reads slow: 40MPH indicated is actually 50. I have printed stickers and attached them to the speedo to remind me to multiply the indicated speed - and the odometer - by 1.25. I consider the swap a full success and sold the old rear axle for $63. Naturally, acceleration suffers a little, but if I want to burn rubber, I kick down and start in 1st gear. I don't do that very often. The car has become very pleasant to drive on the freeway and "Operation Linke Spur" is in full swing.
1969 280SL,Signal Red, A/T, P/S, A/C, Both tops. Ret. engr.
-
Good to hear your swap has been such a success. I expect my RPM change to work out to be the same 20 percent drop you got, since 80 percent of 4.08 is 3.264.
The guy I bought the 3.27 from claimed he wouldn't drive a W113 without this change, particularly if it were a manual gearbox. I think there may be some engine tuning that plays a part here. Perhaps if the engine is really singing the way it did when it was fresh from the factory, those deep gears wouldn't be such a burden. Still, for the sort of driving I do, I think this'll be the way to go and that the car will see a lot more use as a result.
John
quote:
Originally posted by theengineer
I have changed the rear axle on my '69 280SL from a 4.08 to a 3.27 and have now driven it a few thousand miles. I have an automatic. At 62.5 MPH (100 KM/h) my engine turns 3000 rpm instead of 3800. The speedometer now reads slow: 40MPH indicated is actually 50. I have printed stickers and attached them to the speedo to remind me to multiply the indicated speed - and the odometer - by 1.25. I consider the swap a full success and sold the old rear axle for $63. Naturally, acceleration suffers a little, but if I want to burn rubber, I kick down and start in 1st gear. I don't do that very often. The car has become very pleasant to drive on the freeway and "Operation Linke Spur" is in full swing.
1969 280SL,Signal Red, A/T, P/S, A/C, Both tops. Ret. engr.
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
Hello John,
I was the person who manufactured those drive shaft wrenches. I'll add photos first chance!
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
-
I am at home. I do this on all the tie rod bar assembly replacements I do. Assemblies are almost always cheaper than individual pieces. This car uses a 107 part numbered assy.
Daniel G Caron
-
Joe,
Are you going to keep these available? They sure look like the way to go. If you could email me (johnliving@cox.net) the photos you had on the ebay listing, I'll include them in my axle swap pages.
John
quote:
Originally posted by ja17
Hello John,
I was the person who manufactured those drive shaft wrenches. I'll add photos first chance!
Joe Alexander
Blacklick, Ohio
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual
-
Got the car back from the "mechanic" today complete with its state inspection sticker. After a panicky moment when I thought they'd botched the clutch hydraulics (turned out to be a sticky pedal), I calmed down and got it on the highway. Still very pleased with the overall driveability. I tried having my son time us past mile markers with the rpm at a steady 3000. The speedo showed that would've been about 54 mph at the old ratio. The stopwatch showed we were now doing about 67 (there was enough variability that I wonder how accurate the Virginia mile markers are). Suffice it to say that the change means the difference, on a 55 mph highway, between being constantly passed and keeping up with or even ahead of most traffic. Hallelujah!
The rear of the car definitely seems a lot less squeaky than the front now. Guess I'll have to keep working on that end. The mechanic pretty much botched the exhaust install (he was piecing together various dissimilar bits, so it wasn't entirely his fault, I guess), so it bumps the underside pretty often. I'll have to take it to a real muffler shop and see if they can't improve on things. Eventually I'll probably spring for an entire stainless set up.
I'm not happy with the camber with the new Olson compensating spring. With the hard top on and a full tank of gas, it still sits a bit high in the back. And most of the time I've got the hard top stowed. I have a new spring compressor to try, so eventually I'll try different, thinner pads for the spring.
There was something else, but we're getting a severe storm warning, so I'd better sign off. I'll try to summarize most of this thread on a couple of web pages, along with all those scintillating snapshots.
Thanks again to all for your tremendous help and patience with this old rube.
John
John Livingston
Newport News, VA
1968 280SL 4 speed manual