Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Drive train, fuel, suspension, steering & brakes => Topic started by: Franz W on December 16, 2009, 08:22:53
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Hallo,
on the website of asp Klassik i found an article about ZF Friedrichshafen intends to produce a remake of the ZF S5-20 pagoda 5-speed transmission, and also a new production of important spare parts such as bearings, synchronizing rings, gear wheels and so on.
But do not be happy too much, because they will start only, if they have at least 250 orders for the tranny and because the price will be about 9000 Euros.
Will be interesting if they get this lot of orders. US Dollar millionairs and oil sheiks pleas help us.
Would be a nice christmas gift.
Best regards Franz
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Franz,
Alfred also just sent me the link to the site.
http://www.autoservicepraxis.de/getriebenachfertigung-fuer-pagoden-sl-w113-909248.html
Now I just need to find 249 others together with a generous benefactor and we are home and hosed
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But if you install this big bucks item the car won't be original matching numbers anymore! So add that to the cost! ;)
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Thanks Cees, I appreciate that. :-[
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Sorry, couldn't resist.
My car is actually an automatic and drives very comfortably, but sometimes I wish it would be a manual and to have 5 speeds would be an added benefit for sure. However, the cost seems very steep - my understanding is that Maseratis (or another Italian exotic) of the period shared the same, or almost the same, gearbox and perhaps for those particular cars the $9,000 would be less of an issue.
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This is exciting news !!
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Wonderful if you can afford it....too much more me and I am happy with my automatic. Maybe they will do a group sale...say for $1000? ;D
abe
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Let's see, $9000 Euros at today's exchange rate is about $12,900 and you'll still need a new clutch disc, modified driveshaft, and labor. Or, for about $3,500 you can have a T-5 transmission installed.
The numbers won't match then either.
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Let's see, $9000 Euros at today's exchange rate is about $12,900 and you'll still need a new clutch disc, modified driveshaft, and labor. Or, for about $3,500 you can have a T-5 transmission installed.
The numbers won't match then either.
Thankfully someone put some perspective on this! Thanks, Ray!
Here's more. You want the 5-speed for one or more of three reasons:
1) Reduce the RPM because of all the noise at highway speed.
2) "Save" the wear on the engine because of all those RPM's
3) The exclusive cachet of a ZF 5-speed.
OK--here goes.
1) $12K+ buys an awful lot of earplugs. Or T-5's. Or rear-axle conversions.
2) $12K+ buys two complete Metric Motors engine rebuilds, more than enough to last your lifetime AND that of who inherits your car.
3) Remember that numbers thing? The last W113 with ZF 5-speed rolled off the assembly line a very long time ago...it isn't original. Sorry, no cachet with a modern fabrication.
Just another perspective... ;)
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Michael,
Maybe it is just my data card that is worth the extra money with the zf box shown then. :D ;D :'(
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Michael,
Maybe it is just my data card that is worth the extra money with the zf box shown then. :D ;D :'(
Aha, there's always one in the crowd. You are rarer than a 5-speed itself, that is, one whose car would be "put right" by bringing it back to "as delivered". My guess is you might continue to look elsewhere than pay this amount, right? ;)
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Hallo,
there are evidently a lot of facts pro/contra a 5-speed ZF. For me the only reason not to do this ZF conversion is the price.
May be many owners in the USA are not interested in a 5-speed transmission because of the speed limit. Whereas in Europe in most of the countries there are higher speed limits, or even no speed limit as in Germany. So when travelling you have the choice to avoid high rpm and noise by cruising on the autobahn only with 70 or 80 mph and match with trucks, or to drive at higher speed at high rpm and noise.
I always wonder why mercedes did not supply at least the vehicles for the european market with 5-speed transmissions till the eightys. It could not have been a matter of price.
kind regards Franz
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Franz ,
I appreciate the news you sent in but wish I could read it. Can anyone translate it ? I already have the zf transmission but I'm interested in the newly available parts and what they will be charging for them..... ::)
Regards , Lou
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Hallo Louis,
in the secound article of this thread, written by Garry, you find the link to the remake of the ZF transmission.
But i am sorry, you will not find prices of spare parts. It is not quite sure that this remake will be done, so details are not existing.
kind regards Franz
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Hi Louis,
One way to read the article is to cut and past the script into a translator such as this one that will do a rough translation from any to any language
http://translate.reference.com/
And Michael, I brought a lottery ticket, I think it is a lot cheaper and I have more chance of getting the 5 speed back into the car by winning. May be next year or should I say next decade.
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Thanks Franz W & Garry !!
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I think the most important aspect is parts to keep the existing ones running!
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Yes I want too; but not for that sort of money :'(
I think I will do what Garry did put a 3.69 or 3.42 Diff in heaps cheaper.
I drive very long distances in mine like over 1200 to my desert property so around trip is 2400 KILOMETERS = 1500 miles
Do not shoot me or run me out of town. Their is anothor way for $550 only
This has been done on number of Pagoda's here in NSW; 3 rally Pagodas that I know of. Yes this has the same ratio as the famous ZF 20 5 speed Box; an accident I am sure.
Do not all scream at once: A. Toyota Ceiclia 5 speed Gear Box Cost $200 and B. Template housing $350 = $550 You all just saved $12,000; Happy New Year.
They feel great I have driven 3 orginal ZF 5 speed Pagoda's and there is no fifferance with the Toyota sorry that's life. :-\
I have an original 5 speed M-B Ivory Gear Knob; Gary's got the Data Card all we are missing is an original ZF 5 Spped Gearbox.
Seriously Gary we should hunt down a couple of old stuff Maserati with this ZF 20 5 speed Gear box
Cheers Leah
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Leah, What year Celica would that be?
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If the new ZF doesn't have the bell housing it's not going to work. That part was made by ZF and you need it to go with the trans. Everything else you can make or have it modified from standard parts.
At the high price I would imagine the bell housing is part of this unit - or at least it should be.
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:) RickyM
I looked up my files for you regarding the 5 Speed Toyota Gear Box out of a Celka for you Ricky.
It is a Toyota 18R 7 bolt Cast iron gearbox 5 speed the 7 bolts one is critical as it fit the bell housing of the Pagoda with the adaptor Template.
You buy one from a junk yard for $10 and completely rebuild as all the parts are globally standard cost say $200 USD
Which Toyota's carry this box Coron'a 1975 to 1977 Early Celicias to 1986.
Hope that helps as my friends have mounted them in the Rally Pagoda's
Tell me how you get on. Otherwise we can get the Template Pattern sent to you but I guess he is commercial. I can always have it made for you and sent over to the States.
All best Leah
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Hi Leah, or should I say another name!!
I tried an approach to the Maserati people here in Australia to see what they had around. They have the same problem sourcing the ZF 5-20 box as I was having. Some of the parts costs (re-made gears) were big enough to break a small bank and I did not go any further on that hunt.
My axle is a 3.46 from a 208se and it is great but I have kept the old 4.08 in the hope. I have decided that it will be the 5-20 or if I find a BMW Getrag box at the right price then I may go there but undecided. I saw the Pagoda with the T5 at Joe's in Blacklick (PUB) last year and whilst I did not drive it I gather that it involved some change in the transmission tunnel as the gear lever appeared to be in a different position to the original MB. Toyota, nice price but, sorry I dont think so, I cannot at this point even bring myself to fit the Getrag but at least thinking about it.
I think if I ever put my car in a concourse or judged event (and its not my cup of tea) then I am going to change over the gear knob to a 5 speed knob I have waiting, display the data card and I bet they never realise what is missing :D :D ;)
Garry
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After talking with an old Benz mechanic who has been working on these cars since the sixties, I became somewhat cooler on the idea of changing from my four speed to a five speed. My thinking was I would get lower RPMS at highway speed. He informed me that the five speeds barely lower RPMS in fifth gear. The five speeds were meant to give you greater takeoff out of the gate. Don't know if the lower Hwy RPMs were of interest to anyone else in this discussion but there's some possibly useful info.
Ian T
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Ian your right,
1st to 2nd is a very short tight positive throw and very nice a quick; 3rd + 4th a little longer and 5th about the same.
FYI: In 4th gear in the standard Mercedes-Benz 4 speed gear box all variables being equal and original with a 3.69 Diff Ratio you get the same RPM at the ZF Gear Box in 5th gear at highway speeds. I read that in the Workshop users manual. Under Diff Ratios
Naturally if your a rally driver you got to have one; as the 4 speed M-B one is a joke for serious driving; + I do not mean rallying.
You can now understand why the Auto box is preferred. I just do NOT like them period.
So as there are none around; the poor practical owners in Australia use Toyota 5 speed boxes which cost nothing to install and setup.
I have introduced 3 happy rally drivers who have had it done by the specialist workshop that all the they do: fit them mostly to MG B's TR4 + Austin Healys.
Hope that helps Leah
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Attached a copy of an article in Motor Klassik of January 2010.
ZF plans to rebuild the 5 speed gearbox for Pagoda's if they receive at least 250 committed orders at €8000 each.
Regardless of that happening, ZF claims to stock repair parts for their transmissions. Good news for owners of a 5 speed gear box.
Visit http://www.zf.com for more information (for details on the rebuild visit this (http://www.zf.com/corporate/de/company/tradition/oldtimer_ersatzteile/oldtimer_erstzteile.html) page).
Peter
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Garry,
On the T-5 transplant (Hays Conversion ;)) the gear shift comes up in exactly the same place as the original. However as the top of the transmission has a square rise to it, the shifter hole had to be squared. This is under the carpet and invisible. All it requires is an adapter plate between the MB housing and the gearbox, a modified transmission mount, and a new drive shaft. My fifth gear is an overdrive of .72. The car is much more fun to drive as the first gear is much better than the original ratio, 2 through 4 are the same and 5th improves fuel mileage 25%. A Brand New T-5 can be purchased for around $1200. A good used one can be had for about half that. A lot of the details are spelled out in the last edition of Pagoda World.
The ZF will give you a more conventional experience, but I doubt the performance would be improved. As pointed out earlier, the only time it would help in a Concours is if the Data Card says ZF. I think it's great that there are enough of our cars out there that people are thinking of reproducing NLA parts. In this case, I just think I can make many other improvements in my car for the money it would cost for a repro ZF.
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Thanks for the info Ray,
I obviously got the wrong impression in Blacklick that the gear lever was different. I should have had a closer look. I can only agree that the cost of the new ZF is so great that it does not make any sense to fit it when it is a well known fact that the old ones were not that good anyway (a conventional experience is a polite way to put it)and spares astronomical in price but, still nice to be able to say that it is a ZF to match the Data Card. If I was buying a Pagoda with a 5 speed, that did not come with it as original equipment, what ever type it may be and that includes the fitment of a ZF, I would absolutely want the original gear box to be included in the deal to enable reversion if wanted otherwise the value has the potential be a perverted reverse inversion so to speak if you were serious about showing the car.
I must go back and have a good re-read of the Pagoda World.
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For that kind of money and a little bit more you can buy a second car that comes already with an 5 speed and it will outpeform any pagoda out there...say a Porsche 83SC!
abe
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Has anyone with a ZF 5 speed been able to get an answer from ZF on whether any of the spares they show on the site are currently available as Peter seems to indicate? I sent an inquiry about the reverse switch assembly and have not gotten an answer. The original on my ZF was replaced somewhere along the line with the same switch used on the 4 speed MB box. The contact rod on the MB switch is not quite as long as the rod on the ZF switch and if you use the copper seal, it will not allow the shfiter mechanism to close the circuit and activate the reverse lights. It can be made to work by eliminating the copper seal and using some thread sealant but would rather have the right one if it is still being supplied by ZF.
George Des