Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: jonnocanada on December 09, 2009, 20:23:59
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Hello there.
I am a new member, now in the research stage of buying a Pagoda. There are some nice ones for sale right now, but I am trying to remain calm....
I have ordered the buying guide (and look forward to your magazine).
Question, in the sl113 world, is #s matching as important as it is in the Porsche 356 world? (I own a #s matching 64 356SC).
Thanks very much.
Jon
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Jon,
Welcome. I too own a 356SC with all matching numbers. With regards to the W113's, I could be all wrong here, but I have gotten the impression that the value of a Pagoda is not affected as much by whether or not the engine is original. It's not like Corvettes or Porsches where "matching numbers" is critical to value.
I would love to see what our members think about this topic. With our Pagodas, for me, an un-hit, un-rusted, straight body, with matching body panel numbers, is more critical. If you have a great car like that, with a replacement motor, I honestly don't think the value would be hurt that much. That being said, a great car, WITH the original engine, would be worth a bit more.
John Mancini
Chatham, MA
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Jon,
My SC is a 64 also. One more "bit of wisdom". Pagodas are great cars. Like many classics, these Pagodas are very expensive to restore. Pagodas that need body work due to prior accidents, or from moderate to severe rust issues, never look as good, to me. Unless the body man is a miracle worker, and some are, it is MUCH cheaper, in the long run, to buy a car that has a great, original body. Check out www.cascadiaclassic.com. Our fellow member, Bob, gets some great Pagodas. He has a real nice 66 230SL on eBay now. He's knowledgeable and honest. That's a great combo when looking for a classic car.
John Mancini
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'Matching numbers' is not really an issue with Pagoda's as far as I know. You rarely see it advertised, for example, and I've never seen it mentioned as an important factor.
Most important, in terms of value for money I would say is what condition the car is in (body / rust / interior / and all the mechanical components). Best bet is to buy a car that has been really well taken care of by the PO who now wants/needs to sell his love baby.
And ... don't stay calm! As long as you are sure you can enjoy the car, principally through driving it regularly, you will not regret it (provided you buy wisely).
Good luck
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Thanks for the info guy! Great to be aboard. Just received my copy of Chris Bass' "Essential Buyer's Guide" -- so looking forward to learning!
Jon
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Matching numbers is not an issue. Have fun looking!!!! Read as much as you can stand to read before you buy.
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Check with the "Benz DR." He is a member and is located in your neck of the woods......
CHEERS !
WITT ! ;)
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Thanks Witt.
I have 5 different cars available right now. Three are 230SL's and two are 280SL's. The pair of 280 SL's are in the Toronto area. The other three are near Detroit. None are listed anywhere for sale. All are private concerns.
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'Matching numbers' is not really an issue with Pagoda's as far as I know. You rarely see it advertised, for example, and I've never seen it mentioned as an important factor.
Most important, in terms of value for money I would say is what condition the car is in (body / rust / interior / and all the mechanical components). Best bet is to buy a car that has been really well taken care of by the PO who now wants/needs to sell his love baby.
I agree that condition is very important. But, I don't believe we can discount the value of matching body, engine, and transmission numbers. It certainly matters who the buyer is. Some buyers might tolerate some fixable imperfections in order to get a car with matching numbers. Just as the absence of original headlight notches, or fender spot weld are desirable to some, matching numbers are desirable to others. After all, the same is true for fender welds and matching numbers, once they are not original, you can't put them back to original (unless you find the correct original engine, top, trans, convertible boot, etc). They are only original once.
As some of you know, I am relatively new to the Pagoda, but if it follows with other classic cars, matching numbers will always add value and interest.
What do the other members think?
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I've said it before, numbers matching becomes more valuable the worse the condition of the car.
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John,
Can you elaborate?
Thanks,
Mark
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Matching numbers are more of a "nice to have" than a "must have" with these cars.
Similar to the some of the Porsches, vintage Mustang owners are very much concerned with matching numbers...not only major components like the engine but lesser items like the carburetor should have the correct part number. Mustang Concours judges deduct points if a part number varies from standard (especially 1964 to 1966).
I've never seen a judge or a judge sheet that described or discussed the correct engine number, as an example, on a Pagoda...and finding a Pagoda engine number can be a bit of a chore.
My concern with some Pagoda numbers is more to indicate that a part is original for that car and is likely to be fitted and installed properly. The numbers of interest to me when looking to buy a 113 car are the numbers on the hood and the soft top cover that tell if those parts were originally cut to fit that particular car...but even a mismatch of these numbers would not be enough to reject a car or demand a lower price. I pay closer attention to the fit of mis-numbered parts.
Sometimes numbers can be useful on a Pagoda. If a car is being sold as "Totally Original" and perhaps the price has been increased for originality, I'd take a look at the engine and maybe the transmission numbers to see if these major components are original for that car. As you may know, the Data Card has the numbers of the original major components.
One of the reasons numbers on Pagodas may not be as important as on vintage Mustangs, is the lack of component variation on Pagodas. The old Mustangs had three engine choices, carburetor options, and more. Pagodas came with limited choices. They were all "loaded", as we used to say.
You you could choose manual or automatic (and for a while 5 speed) tranny, radio or no radio, color choices...upholstery material was also an option...but the total variations of Pagodas is much more limited than other marques of the time. Yes, there are lists of hundreds of option codes but most of these are not significant items and have little effect on the value of a car.
I think the buyer of a Pagoda expects to see just about the same major items on all cars and is not overly concerned about the options and matching numbers...major concern is condition, overall look, and performance.
It took a while for me to say that numbers are not very important on 113 Pagodas.
Richard M, NYC
Former owner and Certified Judge of Vintage Mustangs
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John,
Can you elaborate?
Thanks,
Mark
If you're selling a pile of crap, your only strength is that it's "matching numbers." If you're selling a jewel that's been restored with the correct components, but not necessarily numbers matching, it's not such a big deal. Nice bonus if numbers matching, but the quality of the car will override that "negative" of non-matching numbers.
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Well, I guess I made my point if John (thelews) can say "nice bonus if matching numbers, but the quality ..." and Richard M (280SL71) says "more of a nice to have than a must have" about matching numbers then you must agree, on some level, that it has some value. I understand you don't think the value is high, but if everything else is equal, you would rather have matching numbers than not have it. Correct?
I'm confident some people place a higher value on matching numbers and some place a lower value on it. Obvious statement, but true.
But, matching numbers does have some value.
Now I just need to get Cees, Scoot, and John.Mancini to agree. ;D
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Matching numbers definitely has value, just more, the worse the car is because it becomes the greater selling point. Given two equal cars, the matching numbers one is more valuable. All three of my vintage cars are matching numbers and were I to sell any, would play that fact up. But, it's the condition of the cars mechanically and cosmetically that would ultimately sell them relative to the market they are in. If I had a junker in need of total restoration, then matching numbers might be the main selling point.
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I think this is a pretty simple question to answer. For the high end of the market, matching numbers matter. It may not be a deal-breaker, but to a very selective buyer in the market for a car pushing six figures, it's likely to matter enough to be factored into the price on some level.
As John just pointed out, if you had two identical cars in excellent condition, the one with the matching numbers should command a slight premium.
The upper end of the market is pickier about this kind of detail and they're not going to be any less picky for a Pagoda.
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Helps to understand the "matching numbers" question.
When the numbers match, there is a greater chance of the car being better kept than one that does not; points to pride of ownership and understanding of preservation throughout the life of the car. For example, rebuilding or repairing the cylinder head or engine, as opposed to (more likely some years back) running to a junkyard and doing a swap.
It also has some origins to Detroit Iron, where certain rare cars, for example command premiums 5x, 10x over their ersatz or fabricated counterparts. Ensuring, for example, that you do indeed have a 351 Cleveland in your old Mustang according the the serial numbers, or a true Dodge Super Bee with a 426 Hemi as opposed to a tarted up Coronet with a big-block 440 tryiing to pass off as one.
The fly in the ointment is that the premiums for matching numbers in certain Detroit Iron is so great that there are those that fabricate that too, I'm afraid. Caveat Emptor.
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Matching numbers has some value.
But, as one restorer pointed out to me years ago, it is very simple on our cars to grind out the non-matching engine number and stamp in the 'correct' matching number (the dies are still available). So maybe we're better off not assigning too high a value to the matching engine number, or risk being fooled in that department.
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If you're selling a pile of crap, your only strength is that it's "matching numbers." If you're selling a jewel that's been restored with the correct components, but not necessarily numbers matching, it's not such a big deal.
Let's see, so if you pay extra for a pile of crap with matching #'s, you would need to keep it a pile of crap to be worth anything. Because if you restored that pile of crap to shiny jewel, you wasted money since it really doesn't matter that your Jewel's #'s are matching.
So if your turd's #'s are matching don't try to polish it.
Clear as mud ;D