Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: thegivingway on May 27, 2009, 21:30:03
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I just saw a very nice 69 280SL on eBay in very good condition - clean, straight, original sheet metal, both tops, tool kit, all history, and owned by the same owner since 1970 only bring $20,000! A year or two ago this car would have brought over 30k. Have the prices tanked that much?
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Any opinions on this? I am seriously worried about the value of my car as I need to sell it soon and it looks like it is worth $15,000 less than I have in it!
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Its hard to gauge if values have gone way down based on one sale. There have been some other good threads here about trends -- and while some cars are selling for less, the good ones will still hold their value in the years ahead (methinks)... as for that particular car, I didn't see it but maybe there was more (or less) than meets the eye? Why don't you give us a peek of your car and we can maybe help you establish a fair price!
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Here is the link to the car that sold. I bring this one as an example, but have been watching many others and have been watching the prices off and on over the last several years. In general, it seems the same 'type' of car that was selling for 30-35k is now in the 20-25k range. I mostly monitor cars in this range as this is where I believe mine is - a nice car, but not a show winner.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230344307815&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT&viewitem= (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230344307815&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT&viewitem=)
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I believe the car in the listing belongs to another forum member (gauchoamigo) and his for sale posting is in the For Sale section of the forum. You may be able to find more information on it and to understand why he chose to sell at a certain price.
I do not believe the value of our cars is going down, like James said before, the good ones will still bring good values.
What are the specs of your SL?
Andres G
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My car is a Euro model that states 1969 on the title (someone told me it is not a 69) has undergone extensive restoration, not that that is a good thing. Here are some photos of the car. Let me know what info you need to discuss what it might be worth. Mostly everything is redone, rebuilt, or restored and the car does have quite a few flaws.
http://s213.photobucket.com/albums/cc167/soldinten/1969%20280%20SL/ (http://s213.photobucket.com/albums/cc167/soldinten/1969%20280%20SL/)
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Ok. I take that back -- I have seen that car! Well, the first impression I get is: Scott's (Gaucho's) car is a nice, decent driver. I'd say that 20K is on the lower end of what it could sell for but not outrageously low. I'd say that the Pagoda-zestimate for it is at about 18-25. I also get the impression Gaucho was in a hurry to sell his car -- he could have held out for more but sometimes life gets in the way. Someone probably got a good deal.
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giving,
Have you thought of shipping the car to England (Silver Arrows at www.silverarrows.co.uk, or Silchester Garage at www.silchestercars.co.uk)? Both deal in daily drivers, and you will get much more than you would in the US. Average cars are going for at least $37K from these dealers. Just a thought... good luck!
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James is right. It depends on who is selling it and how big a hurry they are in. I was at the Techno-Classica in Essen in April and a guy had a 1969 5-speed for sale. The car was not nearly as nice as either of the cars pictured in this thread. It had bad spots on the paint, the interior wasn't clean, the chrome was worse than most. That guy wanted $40,000 Euros. In fact all of the prices in Germany seemed to be higher than I thought reasonable. There were at least 20 Pagodas for sale and they were all pricey. (The only "deal" I saw there was a 1963 Corvette for 55,000 Euros.)
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Essen in April is a price spiking opportunity for anyone with metal to sell...
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When I want to check out the values of the Pagoda W113 I read john Olson's SL market letter, Sports car collectables an on line publication covering the auctions and other cars. also Gerty's cars that matter price guide.
While these publications are only indicators based on market value . that does not preclude original well maintained low milage cars and well restored ones as well. Most of the pagodas I see for sale are a work in progress cars some cosmetic work like paint and interior that have been done to dress up the car for sale. but like used home their is likely to be repairs needed in the future. SO price indicators are not truly factual if you have a special car that exceeds market valve it would truly be of intrest to special parties willing to pay extra for original will keep cars with a history they can track .
I was watching the kenington Brigehampton , New york auction June 13, 2009. One 1969 280SL sold for 45,100 euros a 1965
220SE Cabriolet sold for $82,500 euros. I think that is $125.00 USD. A lot of money for a 220SE Cabriolet. more so than a Pagoda .
I have a feeling as these cars reach a senior level in the classic car market that more original and well restored exsamples will command
higher market value. the fact that a number 4 to 5 car sells for $35,000 USD most people who are not familiar with these cars have little or no idea of the expense it cost restore these cars to like new condition. They are always publicized in many British automotive publicatications
as an affordable and reliable option to a Ferrari or other exotic marques. What is not said all the time is the problems and cost involved with ownership. going on forth and fifth generation of owners.
Bob Geco
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The SL Market Letter has been charting price trends on our cars for many years.
If you are seriously thinking about selling your car, consider checking out The SL Market Letter.
John O. Salazar
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That price does seem low, but not for Ebay. Ebay generally draws low bids because 99 percent of the buyers are bidding without seeing the car in person. If, as here, the seller had a low reserve or no reserve, then it will happen to sell. On a side note, I have always thought 280s are overpriced when compared to early 230s, especially when you consider the main changes were a result of higher emissions standards.
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What effect will the present administration's attack on the AUTO do to us? I get 25+ mpg on a '86 MB 190E. This is probably better than a '40 mpg EPA' rating(bogus). We old car fans have to unite and fight this crap----. .. Is it better for the environment to continue driving an old car or subject the environment to the costs of building and disposing of a new one? Don't think all those batteries, etc are good for Mother Nature.
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Hey Glenn. I was at the local health club once (in Nevada City - bastion of environmentally-conscious folks...), and a guy asked me about my car. A common thing as we all know -- but I could tell his angle was slightly different. He asked about emissions stuff. I said -- "none! ain't that cool"? He went on to pontificate that my car was the equivalent of 20 modern cars or something as far as pollution... I said, yea but sure does enhance the scenery...
A Pissy Pagodaless Pontificater?
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Emissions---?? H2O, CO2, CO, N stuff, S stuff and whatever fuel is unburnt leave thru the exhaust valve. On my 230SL it goes thru the exhaust to the atmosphere. On newer cars with catalyst converters the unburnt is burnt to h2O, CO2, etc. The elements are just converted to other chemical compounds. Which are worse for the environment???
Still maintain my 230SL as a second car is better for the environment than the life cycle costs of me buying a Obamination Crapola.
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Count your blessings, your car is not a Rover TC2000. This is a car that's a hundred times more fun to drive than an MB 113 and its value in the US is now approximately zero dollars. It became pointless to put any more of my limiited time and money into it when the same time and money would at least pay for themselves put into the MB. So I decided just to give away the Rover and found there was actual competition among owners to do even this. I was lucky and found a good recipient, but something like an animal shelter should be set up for them.
Another thing to keep in mind. The value of all luxury items has tanked somewhat recently. Wait till the recession ends.
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Rover TC2000 - that was my first car!! I sold it for a profit - 35 years ago! ;D But don't compare the Rover to the W113 - you'll bring the wrath of the site upon you!
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Depends which model you own, if it's an R129 then you are tearing up bundles of 100$ bills very week, if it's a W113 in good condition you have little to worry about.
The attached price list I picked up about a month ago in a used car yard in Switzerland
PS I own both a 129 & a 113 so hopefully they will balance each other out over time privided the 129 dosen't self distruct.
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My car is a Euro model that states 1969 on the title (someone told me it is not a 69) has undergone extensive restoration, not that that is a good thing. Here are some photos of the car. Let me know what info you need to discuss what it might be worth. Mostly everything is redone, rebuilt, or restored and the car does have quite a few flaws.
http://s213.photobucket.com/albums/cc167/soldinten/1969%20280%20SL/ (http://s213.photobucket.com/albums/cc167/soldinten/1969%20280%20SL/)
Hello
I saw your car for sale on Ebay last fall right! Well anyway at that time I took the liberty og downloading one of the images on your auction and the last week I put it on my webpage to illustrate the difference in look between a Euro and a US model of the car.
I hope you dont mind, if so please let me know and I will remove the picture as soon as possible.
see the bottom of this page: http://www.mercedes280sl.dk/Beskrivelse.html
Please forgive me for stealing the picture of your nice car...
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... Still maintain my 230SL as a second car is better for the environment than the life cycle costs of me buying a Obamination Crapola. ...
Glenn,
soon you'll have to buy a MerTesla, or TeslaMer! ;D
See the press release at: http://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/#/press/
German automaker acquires nearly 10 percent of one of the leading electric vehicle companies
Automakers agreed to cooperate in battery systems, electric drive systems and vehicle projects
May 19, 2009
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I've seen some bargains out there, but I think it's directly related to thsi terrible economic downturn. Some unfortunate folks have been forced to generate some quick cash, and they sell cars, boats, planes, RVs, etc, at bargain prices. I think things will stabilze once things settle down a bit. The exceptional cars are still bringing top dollar.
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The ebay car looked like a pretty decent example with a few issues, 20 is probably a good price. I've sold 2 in the past 6 months, both sold for around 34, 2 years ago they would have both brought high 30s. Both were sold at no reserve on ebay so that might be a good indicator of market value. I think the market is off by about 5K. Good time to buy a collector car.
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I think the guy that bought the car in question got a very nice car that I would have bought at that price. Note the very original light looking semi-gloss finish of the dah wood.... I was questioned by judges at recent car show for having "unfinished" wood similar to this....
Best, Tom
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What are everyone's thoughts on this topic at the present time. I know if you own a car you are hesitant to aknowledge a softening in the value of these cars. I would be challenged if I was on that side of the fence as well. I also aknowledge that most of the members love their cars and are not interested in selling so value is just a number. In my situation as I search to buy I am more focused on not overpaying and continue to see cars not selling or selling at lower prices. The two examples below are the two most recent examples that cause me to refresh this topic. Thanks for your feedback.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/CALIFORNIACLASSIX-Celebrity-Owned-1969-Mercedes-280SL_W0QQitemZ160352226485QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item2555bcccb5&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245QQautorefreshZtrue
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1-Owner-LOW-MILE-Pagoda-W113-California-Never-Rusted_W0QQitemZ180388073264QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item29fff78f30&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245
???
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Not quite sure what you want to know, or what "bugs" you.
The CalClassix car begs the question how much value one should add (or subtract!) from car just because a "celebrity" owned it. Personally, I wouldn't add a penny more, although I do value the fact that the car's history is documented. Since we don't know the reserve we have no idea what the dealer wants for it. But had it sold for the maximum bid of 33K then in all likelihood all of us would have groaned about the sinking values.
The Motoringinvestment car is also very well documented as we have come to appreciate on all cars that Brian advertises. Just like the other one, the history is known, it is a one-owner car, but it is a "California Coupe".
As "Cascadia" wrote earlier, it might have brought 5K more a few years ago, but 40K is still a solid price.
"I am more focused on not overpaying" ... well, that is like timing the market. You are not the only one who wants buy low and sell high, so does the dealer or broker.;D
Just take the plunge and buy what you really like from a reputable dealer or private owner. The big expenses wont stop the day you take delivery, we all know that by now.
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I guess what bugs me is that these two examples are well documented low mileage cars I thought would have stirred more interest. In the case of the CA coupe sure that may be a disadvantage but I would have thought it would have brought stronger money with all the originality. As far as the celebrity car I didn't expect that fact to bring the money but with thirty some early bids and the complete docs I thought the bidders would have hunted a bit higher for the reserve. I am new and still learning and trying to make sure I don't make an emotional purchase as a few cars I am considering are less documented and in the high 40's. No doubt I am overthinking this :)
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The bottom line is that the "right" price is what a willing buyer is willing to pay a willing seller for a particular item at a given point in time. If you find the Pagoda you like at a price you are comfortable with, buy it and enjoy it! This is probably as good time as there has been recently to get a nice Pagoda at a reasonable price and you have found at least a couple that seem to interest you.
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Here is one that wasn't described that well and accompanied by only a few photos, but $53K was not enough to purchase it.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320461449844
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I watched that one as well and wonder what the reserve was. I agree the photos and description could have been better.
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What is the groups feeling about this recent eBay listing? Is this a fluffed up cosmetic restoration or a solid example of a respectable restoration? Is this original an combination ? It has vusual curb side appeal.
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Brian at Motoring Investements just reported that a car he recently sold just re-sold for $109,000.00! The really nice, low mileage originals are being sought by overseas buyers. I had numerous inquiries and offers from European buyers when my 68 was featured on this site. Some of the offers amazed me...................oh well.
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Alex Finigan, a well known vintage Mercedes dealer, recently sold a Silver 113 SL for $150K.
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With the downturn in the economy, it is expected that expendable items such as antique cars and other collectables are going to go down in value. With incomes down and high unemployment, there will be a certain number of collectors who will dump their vehicles causing a drop in the prices. This is quite evident at the auction shows on TV. Wayne Carinin of F140 Motorsports (www.f40.com) in Ct. has seen this in a number of the classic cars he has put of for auction recently. Many have not sold and others have sold way below expectations. Prices will recover once the economy improves.
BYW, the same goes for classic car parts.
Just my $.02.
Regards,
Bossanov
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I think the best indicator of value are the live auctions where buyers actually get to see and touch the cars in person. Most of these are sophisticated buyers not emotional buys that are sometimes seen on Ebay.
A nice unrestored (cosmetic only) '67 230sl just sold tonight at Barrett-Jackson in Scottsdale for $38.5k. Seems like a good price for this car and a sign that values aren't tanking.
Check out lot # 451 at http://www.barrett-jackson.com/application/onlinesubmission/currentcarlist.aspx?aid=304&sd=01/19/2010&ed=01/19/2010
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Seems like an very strong price for that particular car. A friend of mine has a sign in his office that reads "Barrett-Jackson is not a reality TV show!"
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Pretty car, and $38.5 is a great price for a 4 cylinder automatic 230SL!
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There are also 2 280SL's coming up to keep an eye on. Lots 918.1 and 1203. The weather sucks here in Scottsdale this week - but I don't think that has much impact on the car prices.
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The bottom line is that the "right" price is what a willing buyer is willing to pay a willing seller for a particular item at a given point in time. If you find the Pagoda you like at a price you are comfortable with, buy it and enjoy it! This is probably as good time as there has been recently to get a nice Pagoda at a reasonable price and you have found at least a couple that seem to interest you.
Here's the funny thing about pricing in general, seemingly for today's world. Timing is everything, unless you are selling a commodity of certain intrinsic value (such as gold). I've been selling a LOT of stuff on eBay lately--a lot--due to my task of unloading my mother in law's estate for my wife and her sisters. I've learned a few things--
1) Timing is everything. A price too high, just right or too low is not relevant unless somebody is in the market for what you are selling at that time. Sometimes I've had things listed 3 or 4 weeks, no watchers, no questions--then a bid and it's gone. My price was not "wrong" with the first 3 listings--there was just nobody looking.
2) A lot of people don't like the auction process. Some things I had listed repeatedly in auction format, with little or no watchers or lookers, sold very quickly when moved to "buy it now" format. I did that because you can list things "until sold" rather than for 7 days...so your item stays out there, searchable, until someone looking for it comes a calling! I've even bumped the price up a bit and things still sell better on fixed than auction.
3) Certain items of intrinsic value--Limoges China, Swarovski crystal, Wedgwood, precious metals and coins, Leica Cameras, etc. seem to attract bidders. So many other things don't, until the last minute if at all. Move it to fixed, and poof, it's gone. Pianos almost never sell on eBay. It seems to be simply an advertising medium.
There was a news article some months back about a school district that had all these portable classrooms for sale. They listed them on eBay with no minimum and no reserve. Well someone came in with a bid of a few hundred dollars, and got a bunch of classrooms! The school board was a bit miffed (they were expecting something like $15,000) but my point is in that 7 day listing period there just wasn't enough active lookers to bring those up to their value. It does not mean they were only worth $500, but they didn't hit the right people at the right time. Timing again. There are people who do nothing but arbitrage these opportunities by searching for auctions about to close with no bids on things they can flip.
I think pricing continues to be all over the place for the Pagodas. Timing and location matter, too. Brian Peters may have sold a car for 100K+, but there just are not that many of them in a condition demanding that. And have you seen parts pricing? It's getting to COST that much to bring a car to that condition! :o
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I think they're including the 10% buyers premium on top of the hammer price. So the $35,000.00 sudenly becomes $38,500.00 This is a bit a of trick because next year anyone ( meaning those who don't know ) looking at the results of 2010 sales will see a 10% inflated price on everything and think that's what they sell for. Yes, that's what the guy paid at the end, however by contrast, RM auctions aren't adding the buyers fee at their sales so it's almost slight of hand on the part of BJ.
Nice to see that you're leaning towards the price of parts being a deterent to restoration. If you only look at 113 parts you only get part of the pricture. You have to look at ALL of the older cars to see prices trending up and up, sometimes at levels that defy logic or sanity.
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I believe that the buyer who paid $38,500 for that B-J car got a solid deal. I was thinking that $40k would have been the hammer price on it pre-auction. Good looking car, and its a great paint color for certain!
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......I have no intentions of selling my car, but I just had some, what I think good news: My Collector Car Insurance was just augmented with a " Agreed Value Amendment of a replacement value of $ 37,000.
This of course is somewhat less than what I have invested in the car. It's a hobby and I enjoyed doing the work, but its' comforting to know that in case of a write off I will receive a reasonable amount what I consider fair market value at this time.
I learned my lesson dealing with insurances. When my 1978 911SC got totaled in an accident some seven years ago, no fault of mine, I had to fight tooth and nail to get a good settlement. Which in turn let to the purchase of the Pagoda..........and lived happily ever after.............off and on......
CHEERS !
WITT ! ;)
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That car had a cosmetic restoration meaning it was painted, chrome, soft top, interior done. Looking into the engine bay I could see it was clean but nothing special. This means, no engine rebuild, trans, fuel injection, brakes, etc.
Keeping that in mind, it sold very well. Most of these auctions are based upon cars you never get a chance to test drive. You don't even get to hear them run unless you talk to the owner oustside and they have a key to start the engine. You have to give the keys to the auction company so unless they let you start the car or you have an extra set it isn't going to happen. It is, for the most part, how the car looks.
It could end up needing a complete engine build which makes it not such a good deal.
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Looks like prices are going up again: $60K for a (over-restored?) manual 250SL - wow!
See: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200455470318
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Looks like prices are going up again: $60K for a (over-restored?) manual 250SL - wow!
See: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200455470318
At that price, I would have demanded a set of new tires at a minimum.
B.
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I'm sure Doug (dtuttle) would agree with me that that price was way too low.
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Not to open a can of worms, but what exactly IS overrestored? All of these cars are 40 + years old, and an unadulterated, original 113 that is cosmetically and mechanically totally sound is almost impossible to find, and, if one finds such a car, even harder to pay for. Therefore, just about all 113's on the road today have had extensive resto work done on them. Where does one draw the line between adequate and excessive restoration when so much of what pleases the owner of a car boils down to personal preferences and tastes? Isn't by definition anyone's effort to change or remove age related deterioration on one of these cars already a certain degree of overrestoration? I commend anyone who takes on the task to try and do a good job putting one back on the road, keeping it on the road, or just owning one. They are expensive but it's not just about the money. It becomes, at least in my case, a labor of love,a hobby, a joy, a way to connect with other good folks.
I know this topic has been beaten to death by many folks over the years, and I don't want to create conflict. But I for one would propose that we don't criticize someones' hard work and label it excessive by attaching the word overrestored to it. Most of the SL owners out there, myself included, would probably get a great joy out of owning one of these cars.
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I think over restored in this case is referring to the polished stuff on the engine, valve cover, intake, etc.
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I "accidently" have logged the results of big auctions of Mercs since august 2007 (RM, Coys, ...).
16 pagoda's where auctioned.
USA: 6 with an average value of 35,933 dollar (25,660 euro)
UK: 8 with an average value of 25,575 pound (33,545 euro)
Europe: 2 with an average value of 27,600 euro
The currencies are converted to euro with the exchange rates from the day of the auction.
When I look at the different types of pagoda thies is the result:
230SL (6): average 32,168, max 94,380, min 12,075
280 SL (10): av. 28,451, max 40,700, min 16,848
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I'm sure Doug (dtuttle) would agree with me that that price was way too low.
I think it was correctly priced. I prefer a high quality unrestored original (don't we all) but this car is a stunner.
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.... I for one would propose that we don't criticize someones' hard work and label it excessive by attaching the word overrestored to it....
Bernd,
I am at a loss how you could conclude that I criticized someone’s hard work. If you read my message carefully you’ll notice that over-restored is in parentheses and followed by a question mark. In other words I asked a question and as graphic66 pointed out the polished manifolds and other engine parts are not what a traditional restoration would look like. On the other hand I could have also asked whether the car is under-restored since looking at the undercarriage there is no metal part visible in its natural color or CAD plated color, it was simply and completely painted black. And whatever paint was left was used to spray the underside of the hood. It may have required much hard work but it is not what we are used to seeing after a restoration.
After all it was the seller who wrote: All sheet metal and undercarriage is original .. Highly Detailed, Show Quality Engine Bay .. Highly Detailed Undercarriage
and who by the way, was not the hard working restorer.
I believe Michael Salemi once described quite accurately what one should expect from a restoration: http://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=4044.0
Many members here - and I am one of them - start a restoration project because of the fun involved and the personal satisfaction one can get out of it as you correctly pointed out. Some do partial and others very substantive or even complete restorations but I have yet to read a post here criticizing them for doing too much or too little.
What has been done often, however, is to look in detail at cars that are up for auction and then make comments about their states, and if you take the time and search for them you will find many that are brutally honest. I hope it will continue since it provides valuable feedback to those who visit the site because they are in the market for a Pagoda but don’t know much about them and wish to know what an original Pagoda looked like.
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I saw one sold today at the Toronto auction. '64 230SL, both tops, auto, white with blue interior. It said low miles but who can say for sure. It had a certain amount of detail but the paint wasn't that great with poor hood fit and a number of small chips along the front edge. It's what I'd call a partly restored car and it looked very presentable.
It sold for $45,000.00 which I believe is the highest price ever paid for a 113 at this event. It was also the only 113 there and the only old MB car for sale. There were other offerings but they were mostly from the '80's and newer.
If everyone is so caught up in what a correct cars is or should be, why haven't we put together a sheet that clearly states what's correct? I think most car clubs actually judge their cars at national events - they may disagree on the finer points but it gets done. Where are we on this, anyway?
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Dan, I too was at that auction yesterday but could not stay long enough to see the 230SL go. Don't know if you looked under the car but it was leaking oil (pool under the engine) and the tail lights were incorrect. But I agree it was a very presentable car, even had an automatic antenna. That car was part of a JP Motors batch that were being sold and I checked their web site when I finally got home. It was selling on thier lot for $43,900 so they did well on that one. There was certainly a lot of interest in the car at the show. Would you say the colour was correct? I thought 050 was straight white, that one had a bit of a cream colour to it. Mine is a 717 and I would have to say its looks whiter than that one. I've never seen a 050 so I can't say. Anyway, there were some beauitful cars at the show and some people got some really good deals.
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I didn't look under it. I took one look at the dude in the pink jacket who was trying to flog all of those cars and kind of walked away.
I did notice the late tail lights and the chromed vents on the dash were painted white. I remember someone around here saying they've seen this treatment before so it might be factory but I doubt it. I also noticed the paint colour. It wasn't 040 white nor was it 168 ( white grey? ) so I figured it was old paint, which it certainly was, so the appearance was yellowed a bit. Back some years ago the clears were very yellow compared to the stuff they use today. Maybe some of that yellowing can be blamed on materials.
There were a number of small paint chips all over the car so it had a lot of material on it. The fit wasn't bad but the front of the hood was too high. Oddly, it had 250SL headlight doors on it.
New carpet, new soft top, door sill trim, and bottom trims around the outside of the doors. The engine bay was clean but not highly detailed. Someone painted the valve cover and intake manifold which looked OK. The sun visors had been replaced with repro parts. The wood was original and a lot of the veneer was coming off. All the chrome was good but the bumpers were dull and they had the large over riders which made it look cluncky.
The hood prop rod was really bent and the hood wouldn't close properly. When I went to open the hood I realised right away what was wrong so I didn't try to close it without pulling the rod up. The seller practically knocked me over to stop me from closing the hood and it was just luck that kept me from having the prop rod slam down on my fingers. I indicated in no uncetain terms that I was VERY familiar with these cars. He said there was a trick to closing the hood to which I replied, '' Not if the prop rod is straight. I use a bit of grease to make it slide in the plastic block to prevent it from getting bent. I can't imagine why you didn't fix that. '' He walked away from me......
I did notice the antenna and thought it was some sort of bogus crap but maybe that's what a really old power antenna looks like. Nothing I've ever seen before and I've seen lots of them.
Not familiar with this place selling the car but there are a ton of these operations around Toronto selling all sorts of cars. They often bring 10 - 15 cars at a time. You can tell which ones are the dealer cars because they tend to be locked up and some guy in a sports coat and slicked back hair will be watching them. I rarely, if ever, talk to any of them. Real owners will stand by their car and tell you anything they can about it. Often they don't sell them either....
If that's what 45K will get you then I should be getting 60+ for the ones that leave here. Both of the Detroit cars I have for sale ( in the for sale forum ) look every bit as good for 10 - 20 K less.
It was still a decent car though. The right colour made all the difference. White with blue is a strong combination.
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Dan: I talked to the guy in the orange jacket and he knew little about those cars. The vin plate on the firewall was a repro and when I pointed it out he didn't want to talk to me. The best thing about the car was no evident rust. He would not show me the soft top. To me it was a $30,000 car at best. The wood needed work and the aerial is not even German. The rad core was damaged as well.
On top, the buyer has to pay a 10% premium plus the taxes pushing the price to $54,000.
Doug Dees ;)
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Yeah, he was an '' interesting'' guy alright.
I think you mean 54K with sales taxes added? The listed sale price was $49,500.00 on the web site. This would be the $45,000.00 the car sold for plus the 10% buyers premuim. It's all slight of hand though, the sale price is 45K and the buyers premiums are anothe matter. It makes everrything appear as though it sold for 10% more than the bid price which is an effort to get everyone thinking that 230SL's sell for 50K in Toronto.
It's kind of irritating when you have solid well sorted out cars for much less and no one seems interested. If I put a price of 50K on them ( which seems realistic according to what we just saw ) I would get limited response if any, or at least from this site... ;)
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I just returned from an auction in the midwest. One thing I could add to this discussion is the phenomenon of "red mist", the foggy feeling one gets at a live auction. When 2 bidders lock horns results like this can happen. Sometimes the final cars of the auction realize high prices because no-one wants to go home empty handed.
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This isn't like what you seed on TV. No one stands beside you so you have no idea who's bidding against you or if there even IS anyone except you bidding. Not a place I'd buy anything .................
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I think Benz Dr. has a great point. We all have specialized knowledge about what a "correct" car is. Is there any document that captures the collective wisdom and experience of this group? Are there concours judges that have a cheat sheet?
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Strong prices? I suspect that eBay auctions results with private bidder lists might not be the best source to determine if prices are going up or down. "Overrestored 250 SL" is already back up for sale. The final "bid" of $59 900 was apparently not enough.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1967-MERCEDES-250SL-ONE-FAMILY-SINCE-NEW-BEST-OF-BEST_W0QQitemZ200461215851QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item2eac6b686b#ht_34024wt_1070
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"Overrestored 250 SL" is already back up for sale. The final "bid" of $59 900 was apparently not enough.
..or the buyer defaulted, and now the seller has to try again!
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The guy selling this car is no amateur.
Sometimes the bids are not what they seem.
Sometimes the car does not match the descriptions.
Caveat emptor.
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You could be right Doug, but if I was a serious seller I would include an explanation why the car is back up for sale just a few days after it apparently made the reserve and was sold to the high bidder.
Private listings always make me skeptical and especially with this kind of bidding.
Damn nice looking car though, I just love that color combination.
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I spoke with the owner of the green 250 and $59,900 was his reserve. A little suspicious that it jumped to that price 24 hours before the auction ended. Just a total assumption but could someone have been doing a bit of chandelier bidding to see if they could drive the price where they wanted it? ???
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I occasionally skim the classifieds here in Denmark to keep an eye on values - it's a small market with currently only 10-11 cars for sale, but it seems like prices have gone up a little in the past months (springtime?) with nice Euro-spec cars averaging about 35k euro/45k USD and dry state US-imports (mostly 280's) scoring only slightly lower. But as always there is a huge difference between what dealers are asking for their cars compared to private sales - the latter are often priced quite a bit lower. But the suspicious cars in the 25k USD price range have all but disappeared...
The most expensive car at the moment is a seemingly mint condition 69' 280 SL that was restored in 2004 coming in at almost 70k USD.
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Interesting topic, I just bought a '69 280 last Fall for what I thought was a very good price considering what I know now (and am learning more every day) the actual condition of the car is. I can say that the more I read on this topic, the better I feel about mine...!
But I did want to offer some perspective from the vintage VW hobby that I have been immersed in for 30 years this year. I am presently trying to sell one of the 3 vintage VWs I own, a 1950 Sunroof.
What I have observed through this economic downturn, is that, to a large degree, people who had money to invest in good cars before '08, still have money. Conservative and financially prudent folks have weathered the storm OK and perhaps even moreso than ever, are poised to buy a nice vintage car as an investment to enjoy. But their numbers are small, and this means that only the best cars are selling well, while the sub-par beaters and hacks aren't moving at all. You see the same in the housing market when it starts to rebound. The best homes sell quickly, while the others flounder.
And within those high end, best of class cars, there are two buckets: Museum Pieces and drivers. In the VW world, some ultra resto split window Beetles ('53 qnd earlier) have sold in the $50-$70k range in recent years, but they are likely never going to be driven (unfortunately). The better examples of drivers are still selling pretty high, but anything with a lot of incorrect parts, hack work, or poor restos are not selling at all.
Keep in mind BTW, that in the vintage VW hobby, the value of cars goes up exponentially with age. Value of like condition VWs 1950 vs 1970 are orders of magnitude.
Lastly I'll mention that those mega televised auction debacles (like BJ) are in no way representative of the actual, educated buyer market. They are for people with more money than brains.
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I would say NO, if the attached eBay listing means anything.
Basically a basket case with a non-standard engine presently being bid at $12,400??!!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160427590056&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
Wow!
Joe
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??? I am new to this site and trying to price my 67 250 SL that I have owned since '84. It has been a driver, but as I age, I tend to drive something else.
I started looking at prices at the first of the year and am confused now as ever. I started off thinking 24 to 27 K and now think somewhere in the mid 30's would be closer to its value. It certainly isn't perfect as it isn't new, but it isn't in bad shape at all. It is solid black, 100k miles and has both the soft top and the hard top.
Anyone in my area that would like to take a look, let me know. I'm not going to sell on EBay or to anyone that doesn't have a real interest in the design and make. If I learn how to post a picture, I'll join and advertize here.
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I occasionally skim the classifieds here in Denmark to keep an eye on values - it's a small market with currently only 10-11 cars for sale, but it seems like prices have gone up a little in the past months (springtime?) with nice Euro-spec cars averaging about 35k euro/45k USD and dry state US-imports (mostly 280's) scoring only slightly lower. But as always there is a huge difference between what dealers are asking for their cars compared to private sales - the latter are often priced quite a bit lower. But the suspicious cars in the 25k USD price range have all but disappeared...
The most expensive car at the moment is a seemingly mint condition 69' 280 SL that was restored in 2004 coming in at almost 70k USD.
Yes Ulf the dealer Responcecars has raised his prices, but he still has had the same cars for sale for 2 years now. I am glad he raised his price since I lowered mine in the same periode, but mine is still not sold and mine is about the same state as his only mine is 15K$ cheaper.
Those buyers that contacted me want a perfect car at a bargain price... they are treasure hunters. And then the those who want only the best and will pay for it. None is willing to work a litle theme selves to make it a perfect car.
But some day the right man will appear...
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Just out of curiosity - why are you selling? Have noticed your car from time to time and it's really stunning? I wish I had seen your car before buying my own 2,5 years ago...
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PM sent to Ulf.
I love the car, but its not at family car and I might need a 2.nd car should I find a new job not in cycling distance from home.
But I am quite sure I want one again, when the kids are out of the house.... in 20 years or so!!!!
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I would definately have bought your car if the transportation wasnt such an issue. I thought it was just a case of flying over and driving back on a ferry.. How wrong was I..
Im sure someone will come along soon as the car looks absolutely fantastic.
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I would definately have bought your car if the transportation wasnt such an issue. I thought it was just a case of flying over and driving back on a ferry.. How wrong was I..
Im sure someone will come along soon as the car looks absolutely fantastic.
I hope so. You have been the most serious buyer yet, and I am even more sorry because I see how well you take care of your new car and I am sure mine would have loved beeing in your care. Just not many of your kind around these days...
Jakob
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Why wasn't it a case of flying over and taking the ferry home? Isn't there still a connection between Esbjerg and Harwich?
Ulf