Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Drive train, fuel, suspension, steering & brakes => Topic started by: nate on March 11, 2009, 17:30:28
-
Has anyone sent their motor out to Metric Motors in LA for a rebuild lately? What are they charging these days for a full rebuild?
-
Try their web-site:
http://www.mercedesengines.net/categories.asp?cat=20
-
The website lists the long block price for a 280 SE/SL at USD 7,100 plus a (I assume refundable) core deposit of USD 1,500 in case your engine is (partly) not rebuildable. A short block rebuild lists for USD 4,500.
I suppose I would always opt for the long block; if one goes through all the trouble of removing the engine and taking it apart, one might as well. Plus, as Dr Benz has pointed out in the past, only rebuilding the block may exacerbate problems with the head that went undetected thus far (higher compression due to new pistons/rings etc). So unless you are confident that the head is in tip-top shape, go for the long block rebuild.
-
I sent my 230 sl motor out about 2 years ago, it was about 6,600 for a long block rebuild.
-
Not having any affiliation other than a satisfied customer, I'd suggest a call to www.blackforestllc.com Ask for Michael.
-
The real cost of engine rebuild is a lot higher than this.
Figure in things like:
motor mounts
engine bay painting
hardware plating
rad recore
fire wall insulation
starter rebuild
alternator rebuild
new water pump
visco fan clutch
IP rebuild
clutch plate
pressure plate
machine flywheel
throw out bearing
trans rebuild auto/standard
drive shaft rebuild
flex joint kit
cold start valve cleaning
injector cleaning
trans flex hoses
power steering pump kit
rad hoses
thermostat
drive belts
filters
exhaust system
manifold coating
throttle linkage parts
distributor rebuild
ignition parts
trans mount
shifter bushings
Anything else that you might find.
Suddenly it looks like more but a full restoration can include all of these parts and probably a lot more. Some things like water pump, IP and cooling system are a must during a full rebuild of the engine. A worn out IP will run too rich and may damage your engine. A fresh engine will produce a lot of power which translates to more heat - the enemy of your engine.
-
Nate,
Lately? No; I did it in year 2001.
However, let me throw my 2 cents in here as I do it everywhere else. ;)
Many people can rebuild an engine. Some of us here have done it with sub-optimal conditions and tools and achieved spectacular results and thus are darn proud either for the money saved or simply for the achievement in accomplishing something that is normally out of our comfort zone. That being said, I draw your attention to a couple of things to think about:
1) Cees mentioned something to the effect of "as long as you go through the effort of removing the engine, you might as well go for the long block as opposed to the short block rebuild". He gave a good reason. I thoroughly concur.
Having learned the hard way about attempting to save a few dollars during a rebuild/repair/restoration, I'm a strong advocate for not re-installing anything unless you are 100% certain that it is in good working order and more importantly, will remain so for a long time. While it is impossible to know this all the time, if you went to replace the pistons and rings, for example, after XXX,XXX miles because they were worn, would you not suspect that maybe things on the head are worn too? (N.B. If I ever see you in person remind me to tell you about the story of when my transmission was in and out of the car 3 times in a year...)
2) Nice things about Metric (perhaps it applies to the other well known rebuilder, Noel's in Florida) are the following:
a) They do not care one iota what is "wrong" with your engine. Everything in gets the same treatment. They go through an identical rebuild procedure. If you do things like that, you can be most assured that the end results--the engines out the door--will be mostly identical. Most (I did not say all) people or machine shops who do it as a side business to their overall business will do a tear down and try to find out "what" needs the work...when you do that you run the risk of overlooking something. My cylinder head had a slight crack; they discovered this and welded it (no charge). I believe when bpossel sent in his engine for a long-block, they discovered the head not rebuildable. I've seen theengineer's cylinder head that some rebuilder somewhere, sometime machined down beyond spec, but more importantly, not evenly. That's the kind of thing that has me afraid of going to someone doing it part time or not knowing these engines, such as "Ace Auto Machine Shop" in your hometown.
b) Metric does not change oil at 7AM, do a brake job at 10AM, and then rebuild engines after lunch. All they do is Mercedes engines. They have been doing it for a very long time. You would like to think that they then have a well-honed process, and when they make or have made mistakes, they have corrected them.
On a simpler level, I would much rather "exchange" my Bosch starter for a factory rebuilt rather than take it to my local "Joe's Auto Electric" service for precisely the same reason. Bosch doesn't care what the state of your core was, they apply the same set of rebuild processes to achieve identical quality going out the door. (Been there and done that too--I'll tell you that story after the first story... ;D) I think they are too small for this, but firms achieving either ISO or Six-Sigma quality certification will design their processes as Metric has.
Metric will, at your discretion and based upon their inventory, either exchange your head or engine, or rebuild what you send them. Perhaps if you were unlucky enough to need an engine rebuild on a early ML series you would not care about which engine was in and a swap would be in order. Generally on our collectible cars, they are well aware that we are willing to wait for our own engine to be completed.
Pay attention to Dr. Dan! See his list? That is, in a nutshell, why my "repair" job on my Uncle's old beater turned into a complete restoration... :o
-
Just my two cents. Part of owning and playing with these cars is working on them. Metric has an excellent reputation and if you are a restoration shop doing someone else's car, sending the engine to Metric is a good decision. On the other hand, there is not a lot of enjoyment in contracting out a very interesting process.
Rebuilding one of our engines is not rocket science; it just takes a lot of attention to detail. I am just finishing up rebuilding a 121-940 engine for my 190SL. The engine is from a 1965 MB 200; a five main bearing version of the 190SL engine and the engine used by vintage racers. You cannot just take a vintage engine to a machine shop and say "rebuild it". You need to have the documentation and know the parts availability (in fact have them in hand) before any machining takes place. for instance, I found that only first oversize main and rod bearings were available so the crank was machined to match these bearings.
This has been a very enjoyable and rewarding project. I specified all machining and machine work to be done, did all of the assembly and checked and double checked each clearance and torque setting. All of the details are in the shop and Technical Data manuals.
I believe that my rebuild is at least as good as any professional shop rebuild because I too the time to verify and double check every step. A very enjoyable and interesting project.
-
Nate
I just bought an engine from Metric last month. Mike handled my business and he was very professional and I am happy so far. The cost was 4400 for a shortblock. I had the head rebuilt locally and spent a small fortune on that. The cost would have been the same if I went with Metric for the whole thing. I considered doing the rebuild myself because I could do it but after hearing the details from the machine shop I was going to be digging deeper into my pocket for additional parts. I lost $200 just to check the motor just to realize that it would cost over 4000 in parts to rebuild it. The machine shop also would need to be paid. The cost and and time to get all the parts was mentally draining and the lack of a warrantee swayed me over to having Metric do mine. They even exchanged a manual tranny motor for an automatic :) . I am more then pleased and they even checked a set of fuel injectors for me to ensure I was ok in that department. Dr Benz hits the rest of the details on the head. I am spending more and more by the day to ensure the car will be right once I get it back on the road. My car is no concourse model but the cost of repairs and parts are a constant for mechanical items. The only drawback from Metric was the shipping which was steep but, I guess that is expected when you ship a motor to the east coast. So the bottom line for my car so far is 7k and I am still buying parts like gas lines, filters, gasket kits, paint for the engine bay, hoses, clamps, bolts and screws, and special tools that dont reside in my tool box yet. Hope this helps.
-
While what Jim Villers says is all correct, understand that humble though he is, he is in a different class than your average shade-tree mechanic. He might tell you he's just average, but it isn't so.
The basements and yards of America at least, if not the world, are quite literally, littered with the remnants of unfinished automotive projects. In Michigan at least, the "car guys and gals" that don't own some working collectible are in the process of restoring one. Far too often, you see project cars for sale, where the engine is merely a collection of metal tossed in a cardboard box. Are all the pieces there? Are you sure one didn't roll off into that dimly-lit corner of the basement? It's the winter project, right? I've seen many of these boxes and project cars. They are usually sold at a substantial loss--but frequently the marriage is saved! :'(
I agree it is not rocket science. But then again it is more difficult than Jim portrays for those with average ability. Just collecting all the parts, ensuring you have the right "core" products; ensuring you have all the right tools, and keeping it all straight while paying attention to the most minute of detail is a non-trivial task. If it were so easy, there wouldn't be all these boxes of engines laying about; and the pros would never screw it up. But, realistically, there is, and they do!
Even though I had a pro do my car, I was helping with many things. I knew there was going to be a long process of sorting it all out after it was done. During the process, writing that check to Metric was actually one I was happy to write. So, there was indeed pleasure in the process. The pleasure was the same I got when writing the check to Hans for the Fuel Injection rebuild. I knew it was a load off my mind, and was done properly. I understand others like to work on things themselves, and that's great. But the question was not about how to rebuild the engine--by yourself or professionally--but about Metric.
Below: Done once, and done right.
-
I must have mis read the initial post.
I thought the question was how much for an engine rebuild NOT rebuild and detail the engine bay.
Just to rebuild the motor to make it look like the one posted on the metric motor web site
is about 6,600.
If you do all the stuff Dr Dan listed then watch out cause it will be much more but while the motor is out is sure is easier to do all that stuff and wow results when you are done will be nice...
-
I think Dan's point was that the total cost of the taking out the engine for a rebuild can be much higher than just the actual cost of the rebuild itself, due to all the things you might as well do whilst the engine is out. Mission creep and all that sort of thing. No one likes to put old hoses back in.
A very good point indeed.
-
This is great information everyone, thanks! I'm taking Dr. Benz advice and doing everything since the motor is out. Will keep you posted on the mechanical part of the restoration and send pics of what should end up being a lovely engine compartment.
-
No one likes to put old hoses back in.
Waqas, you'd be surprised (or horrified as the case may be) at the lengths some people will go to save money!
Speaking of old hoses, in my former life as a carwash owner, when a hose wore out--and they did with alarming regularity (usually on Sunday nights in winter, never on a Tuesday morning in summer >:() I simply replaced the old hoses. Some thrifty car wash owners (I think they enjoyed hose changing) used to come by and take my old hoses! They'd fit new ends on them! Unbelievable. A brand new hose might last a year. An old hose with new fittings? Half the cost of a new hose, life maybe a couple of months? Do the math. I still shake my head...
TO ALL THOSE WHO ASKED ABOUT ENGINE PHOTOS, the website was seemingly inaccessible all morning. I'll respond to the messages as soon as the site allows.
-
Actually I have three points.
a) The cost of a basic rebuild.
This varies a bit from place to place and what needs to be done. I my opinion, there's no such thing as a basic rebuild. Every one is different but many things will be the same. BTW, I don't always agree with the way rebuilders do some repairs.
b) The cost of all the things you could do while the engine is out.
I already listed some of them.
c) The things that are not included in the engine rebuild but are still part of the job.
There are must do repairs and there are things that you would do in a full restoration. Just pulling and then installing the engine is about 2 days of work which is added to the price if you have someone do it for you.
-
My 230SL project car needed a short block. The cylinders were worn, the crank, two rods, and the oil pump were damaged beyond repair. I ended up buying a used "builder" short block to get those parts. I bought, from Metric, the parts that Metric would use in one of their rebuilds. A good local shop bored the cylinders, checked and polished the crank, did some other stuff, and assembled the short block.
I ended up spending $4796. Had I gone with a Metric rebuild, it would have been about $5100 including shipping and the $300 core charge for the crank. The downside was that I didn't get much of a warranty, the upside was that I had fun chasing the parts myself and got to hang out some at the machine shop.
-
Michael .... Thanks for the compliment on my competence.
I have also found many project cars that have been left in pieces. Most, I believe, because the person did not have the money to fund the project in the first place. Rebuilding an engine and doing everything else that is desirable (Dan's list) is expensive. The choice to "do it yourself" should not be a financial decision but a decision because you "want to take that journey".
The purpose of my post was to encourage others that they could do their own rebuild if they desired. I would also add, the if they do their own rebuild, there would be a lot of encouragement and assistance for Group members here on the Forum.
-
...which all points to my comment about the lengths some people will go to to attempt to save a buck. (Or a loon...)
If your customer just said "Dan, rebuild my engine and don't bother me", or just bought a complete engine from Metric, or Noel's or whoever, he'd be further ahead with less time and money, probably.
Also, understand the concept of "balancing"; my suspicion in the rebuild business (as opposed to manufacturing) is that it is as often a simple checking procedure where nothing is done except verification that what you have is balanced.
When MB takes a fresh flywheel from casting, or crank from forging, it needs machining AND it needs balancing which is often adding or subtracting weight to achieve a standard--just like a tire.
In rebuilding, you are most often starting with pieces that were balanced once before after manufacture, so it is more of a "check to make sure what you are putting back is OK kind of deal." It's part of quality assurance. Nothing wrong with that at all--even if only 1 in 1000 might need any work to balance. Pray it isn't your 1 in 1000 that does!
-
Chuck,
I did my 230 Sl engine myself about 4 years ago. I had collected up most of the head parts while stationed in Italy and Germany including new valves, keepers, springs, guides, rockers, etc as well as a new oil pump and all the gaskets. My intent was to just do the head but once I got it all part in the garage I decided to go the full route with it including new pistons, bearings, polished crank, rebalanced flywheel, etc. I suspect we all use the same machine shop over in Falls Church and he does excellent work. With a freshly rebuilt FI pump, new injectors, the freshly assembled engine fired right up and has been flawless for the last 6000 miles or so. The whole experience of chasing parts, working with a machine shop and seeing the fruits of your own labor come to life was deeply gratifying. Cost was somewhat lower than what you paid, but I had many of the most expensive parts already on hand and got them when prices were considerably lower--like back in 1981. Would I recommend this route for everyone--certainly not if you are not the adventuresome sort because there are some big risks if you aren't careful.
George Des
-
I used Allied Industrial in Falls Church, in the basement of Don Beyer Volvo. What a great place! They even picked up two short blocks and delivered one rebuilt, plus leftover parts.
The head on my 230 had been done fairly recently, judging from it's appearance. The valves, seats and guides were perfect, so I put it back together with the new seals that came with the gasket kit.
One major expense was the "used" short block for $1450 with shipping. But from that I got the crank, flywheel, balancer, two rods, and an oil pump. So I basically saved on that compared to the Metric "crank kit" which is $1300 with a reground crank and bearings, $90 for two rods, and $236 for an oil pump. All plus shipping. I was lucky that the used crank did not need to be turned, because if it was, the main bearings would have been twice as expensive because Metric would have had to piece two sets together, accorging to Mike.
The pistons were a major hit at $210 apiece. Mike told me that they were the last 83 mm 230 pistons that they know of.
But like you, I had a lot of fun and got a lot of satisfaction from doing what I did. There was an anticlimatic moment when I went to turn the engine over for the first time, only to find I had a dead starter. A few days and a rebuild starter later, I was happy to see the oil pressure come up, and shortly later hear the engine fire and run well.
Heres a link to a picture of the car moments after I got it running.
http://i385.photobucket.com/albums/oo296/ctaylor738/PICT1606.jpg (http://i385.photobucket.com/albums/oo296/ctaylor738/PICT1606.jpg)
-
Chuck,
Yes, I used Allied as well. These guys are really great to work with. They also did some bearing pulling on a spare differential I just rebuilt. One bearing shell was particularly difficult to replace in the housing and they got it back in--very difficult for them as well as they related later. Just about the saem experience on the engine rebuild including the dead starter. One thing I did do was use a pressurized oiler to make sure that the oil ways were filled prior to the first start up. This coupled with turning the engine over several times without the spark plugs installed ensured that I had oil pressure immediately on the first start up.
Haven't been doing much wrenching lately since attention has turned to the house now--what started out as a mere paint and spruce up has turned into major work inside as the wfie and I are resigned to the fact that with this severely depressed housing market here, we may be here longer than we originally intended even though we have another place a few miles away from Gernold's in Old Orchard Beach, Maine that we had intended on moving into after we both retired from the Fed two years ago. 12 foreclosures in the immediate Roundtree neighborhood and a $140,000 decrease on our last county assessment doesn't make it easy!!
George