Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: Andres G on January 30, 2009, 20:13:53
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Once again, here I am facing an interesting decision regarding which Pagoda to buy. I've followed most of the advise received from forum members, such as checking out as many cars for sale as possible, driving as many cars as I can get behind the wheels of and getting a subscription to SL Market Newsletter.
As I have explained in prior postings, I am planning on getting this car together with a friend of mine and since we've seen so many so far and most of them are not up to par, we decided to take a look at a higher end cars from reputable restorers. This is how we came across a really nice 180 silver/red car in an incredibly nice shape... the price ($59K) was close to double our original purchase budget ($30/35K) but we were willing to go with it to get a car we'd for sure enjoy. We went back and forth on the deal and we were minutes away from wiring the $5K deposit until we realized the original color of the car had been 834 green and it had been repainted/converted to 180 silver. This really turned us down, to the point that we backed away from the deal.
I now wonder what the opinion here is about changing the color of a car and if there is a concensus on this having any effect on the resale price of the vehicle. What do you think?
Thanks,
Andres G
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Hi Andres,
In a sense, you have answered your own question: in your case the color change was a deal killer...so indeed, it has affected the value. Substantially might I add!
That being said, sit back and think about this for a moment. Color is, frankly, simply paint. Ignore the interior for a moment, and focus on painted metal.
How good is the paint, if original? Has it been well preserved? Have any parts of the car been repainted?
If a repaint job, how good is the respray? Was it a complete job, or a partial job?
What would you rather have, original paint in mediocre condition, some cracking, fading (some call it "patina") etc. or a great paint job that is not original or original color?
Very often, you'll see the exterior resprayed, but the engine bay remains original...as does the dashboard. This kind of thing would bother me, probably more so than a color that isn't my first choice. How do you feel about that?
My own opinion, and mine alone is this: do things right. There is nothing wrong with repainting a car, and nothing wrong inherently with changing the color to suit your needs, but it should be a good job. Do everything, or don't change the color. I don't care how perfect or Concours quality the outside of the paint is--if it is silver, I want to see EVERYTHING silver that is supposed to be silver.
Color preferences change over time, which is why 95% of new MB's are Silver, White or Black. Painting a car is a major undertaking and often owners will create what they want if they are investing the money. That's what I did--changed from 050 to 568. But it was done completely--you will not find ANY 050 on the car anywhere (save for the unrestored hard top in my basement that nobody but Peter van Es will see)
Personally, I'd look for consistency, accuracy and quality of the paint rather than be very concerned with if the color was changed. But that's from someone who did change their color...
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I know that there will be differences of opinion here but my zwei pfennigs worth is that at this price, originality should be a factor. As it happens "834 Green" a.k.a "Moss Green" is perhaps one of the more rare and sought after green shades on a Pagoda. Repainting a car "resale silver" is O.K. for some just as is repainting a car "trophy winner red." But there is no substitute for originality at the high end of the market. That said, perhaps this is a $98k car that can only fetch $59k because of the color change! ;^) Now the real question is: Did you and your friend see, drive, inspect the car thoroughly and find it otherwise satisfactory? The follow up question is: Did you and your friend consult with the seller and try to reach a mutually agreeable price, bearing in mind your reservations about the ultimate value of a non-original paint color? And finally: Are you and your friend in the market for an investment vehicle or a solid, mechanically trouble-free, and cosmetically superior vehicle to enjoy and use?
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Great replies.
I can tell you my perspective.
For me, I had a 1962 190SL that I bought & assumed it was the original shade of green (I had known the car for 20 years & it had always been that color). But when I found out months later (after purchase) that the car was originally a light blue (strictly by decoding the tag) I was a bit taken back by it. I sold the car shortly afterwards.
Now keep in mind that the green was done exceptionally well. And it looked appropriate on the car. But I knew that I would personally prefer the car to at least be the original hue so I parted ways with it (there were other reasons too... My wife hated the way the carbs stunk up the garage - and so did I).
So I went and bought the most original (non-carb) vintage SL I could find. No matter the price. Now I know this one is the original color.
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... you will not find ANY 050 on the car anywhere (save for the unrestored hard top in my basement that nobody but Peter van Es will see)
Is he tied up down there or what? Do you let him see daylight once in awhile? :D
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A color change is a turn off for me on a mundane car like a 115 or 123. I don't think I could swallow it on a 113.
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Original color is important to some but not to others.
A repaint in a different color may reduce the number of people who will bid on a car...but if a modest color is repainted bright red, maybe it will increase the interest. Difficult to say.
When I was looking, I passed on every car that was not the original color. Each of those cars had one fewer possible buyer and probably took a little longer to sell...not sure how a "new" color affects the price.
Richard M
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Maybe I missed it, but did the seller say why he repainted it? Damage? Rust? For me to part with $60K (+taxes, registration, etc. etc.) EVERYTHING would need to be original and near perfect. I'm sure you can find a great car in your original price range.
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Is he tied up down there or what? Do you let him see daylight once in awhile? :D
He only lets me play with this website once in a while.... :'(
Peter
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Is he tied up down there or what? Do you let him see daylight once in awhile? :D
When Peter flies in to Detroit for PUB in July and road trips down in my 050 568 Pagoda, before we go I'll take him to the dungeon. With torches out of the old Frankenstein movie, me and the villagers will lead Peter down the winding stone steps to the dank and dark basement. There in the corner, he will see the old 050 hard top. It's that old unrestored hard top that won't see the light of day...and certainly not my car! ;)
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Too bad because a pagoda looks a lot nicer with a hardtop on. After all, that is how it got it's name.
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Too bad because a pagoda looks a lot nicer with a hardtop on. After all, that is how it got it's name.
I think it looks better with no top at all, (nickname not withstanding) but agree that the hard top is better looking than the soft...
...after countless hours of professional labor; a lot of sublet labor, oodles of fondly remembered cash, and nearly 3 years--to hear that a hard top restoration (this is 8 years ago now) is an additional 100 hours plus parts costing $1,000...
I took it to the basement. :(
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Michael,
If I had known what I know now, my hard top would be in the dungeon also. I wish it was only 100 hours labor to do.!!! The $1000 is right though but that does not include re-chroming.
Garry
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But of course not all of what we do to our cars is driven by economics. We love these cars and sometime do it just because we like the look. I would do my new color (black) hardtop again even though it may not pay itself back... (Although I hadn't just restored the rest of the car, either... :o) The 2-tone color is my personal preference, and I do prefer the hardtop-on look for the pagoda.
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Craig -
The black top looks great against the silver. I recently did the same with my 250SL, changing the hardtop color to black, against the 501 Orient Red body.
To be correct, you'll need to change the color of your hubcaps to black also. 8)
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My dad got a used hard top from a later year same color but there are two small dents that appear on the side like something dropped on it.. the chrome and rubber and head liner are all in great condition . The original hard top needs serious renovation . Chrome , seals and headliner . It has original paint and the steel chrome bars on top for the luggage rack. I have been pondering what to do with it and if I what to take on the restoration.
My 1968 280SL is 158 white grey but not the original white grey color since it has been spot painted many times I have seen a restored 280SL 158 color with brown soft top and a beautiful brown leather interior at Fashion Island many years ago and know what the real color looks like. The car was ordered with two tone paint 040 hard top with Mercedes-Benz Tex in Black and black hub caps . I was once thinking of respraying the hard top I now have for the car white grey and having a second set of hub caps the same color.
My 280SL is not a show car in fact I do not know if the carpeting is even correct color and weave. I some how think it should be that salt and pepper look grey with black?
I have seen Pagodas at car shows that went through a color change and if done properly look incredible. Sure it is a deduction if you show your car and a judge is smart enough to catch the vin plate code number and notice. but who
cares really as long as it was done tastefully and the owner enjoys the car. I rather think its OK with me.
Bob Geco
member #15
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Thanks all for the very insightful replies. I think I now have a better idea of what I should think of in regards of a car that has received a color change... I do have to say that the quality of the paint and restoration job is superb, which is exactly the reason why we walked away from this vehicle, as there is no other flaw (well, maybe one or two that are minimal and very easy to correct) than the color change, making it hard to negotiate a lower price. This may be the case pointed out by Mike Hughes, in which the car could have brought $90+ in the original color but may take forever to find someone who wants it... instead they chose to paint it a more popular color (a great one indeed) that will probably sell sooner but for a lower price.
Maybe I missed it, but did the seller say why he repainted it? Damage? Rust? For me to part with $60K (+taxes, registration, etc. etc.) EVERYTHING would need to be original and near perfect. I'm sure you can find a great car in your original price range.
The reason stated by the restorer/seller for the color change was that he didn't think there'd be a single person in USA looking for an SL that would want to own a Green/Red one. There is absolutely no rust on the car, it looks perfectly original inside and out.
The follow up question is: Did you and your friend consult with the seller and try to reach a mutually agreeable price, bearing in mind your reservations about the ultimate value of a non-original paint color? And finally: Are you and your friend in the market for an investment vehicle or a solid, mechanically trouble-free, and cosmetically superior vehicle to enjoy and use?
Mike, like I mentioned above, we both believe the quality of the job is outstanding and that it would be really hard to negotiate the price of the car down. We may go back and try to secure a deal for a lower price, but I get the feeling I'd end up going down he same path that MichaelB did and probably want to sell the car soon afterwards.
Regarding your final question, it seems that there are many different ways to clasify a car... what some people consider an investment car, some others consider a driver. In my opinion, I'm not looking for a car I would not want to drive in other than a very special occasion, but at the same time, I get the feeling that cars that are being considered "solid drivers" are below my standards on cosmetical appearence. So, to answer your question: Yes, we are in the market for a solid, mechanically trouble-free and cosmetically superior car that we can still drive on weekends, down to the office and still show eventually during summer time.
I think in the end, I will continue to look just like I've done so far until the right one comes across my path.
Thanks again.
Andres G
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Hi,
I don't have much to add that hasn't been said yet, but to me there are two crucial conditions for changing the color.
First that it is done completely. That would normally only be possible as part of an extensive/total restoration. And secondly that the color chosen is correct for the model and year and is combined with the interior color according to the factory recommended color combinations.
834 moss green metallic is a great color but I've never seen it with a red interior.
It must have been a special order, since those colors green/red where not according to the factory recommended list of color combinations. So one can almost understand the owners preference to change it to a more mainstream combo.
Assuming that they used original silver paint code 180 and that the car is as perfect as you describe personally I would not
exclude it from considerations because they converted it from a "crazy" to a nice color combination. ;-)
I must confess that I am biased in this question, since I've changed color on two of my cars as part of total restorations.
Both times I went with colors that where original and also matched the factory recommendations for combinations with tops interiors etc.
Regards,
Hans
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To all but the most literal of buyers, as long as the color was available for the particular year and model, I don't think a color change is serious in terms of resale. I changed the color of my 190 SL from 534 red to 317 grey/blue. I, and a few others, think the new combo is smashing and who needs to see another red 190 SL? The proper paint code was put on the tag.
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Gnerally agree on original colors....
However, if you have a Cognac interior; the replacement Gognac leather is so badly done by all suppliers that it looks like Leopard print.
A bamboo or dark tan with aging will look closer to original Gognac.
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... The proper paint code was put on the tag.
Hmm :o
Why? Which tag is that, the equivalent of the code tag in the engine bay of a W113, or some kind of "removable hanging tag"?
Now if I were to find out that someone was selling me a car with fake documents - and the code tag is a document - I would walk away just as Andres did.
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Hmm :o
Why? Which tag is that, the equivalent of the code tag in the engine bay of a W113, or some kind of "removable hanging tag"?
Now if I were to find out that someone was selling me a car with fake documents - and the code tag is a document - I would walk away just as Andres did.
The 190 SL has a separate paint code tag (and chassis tag) which is usually replaced and restamped as part of a full restoration. It is different than the 113 tag. In the event of a sale, at least in my case, I have the data card which shows the original color and the buyer can decide if the color change is a factor. In fact, again in my case, I have the original, corroded tags that the buyer would also get as part of a sale. I, as a seller, would have nothing to hide and would freely divulge the color change. The car paint tag change is simply to provide the continuity of labeling as it would have come from the factory. Any seller would be a fool to represent the car as original in color, when it differs from the data card, knowing the buyer can easily get the data card after buying the car. Also, as part of the restoration documentation, the buyer would see the pictures of the car when I bought it.
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I agree with John and think that is a proper way to do it. As I see it the code tag, or production plate as someone call it, has nothing to do with a legal document. Where I come from it's in no way a legal requirement to have it on the car, parts of the car containing a unique identifier such as the VIN number is of course a different story.
The production plate was solely an aid for the workers during the production to indicate colors, option codes what holes to drill and so on.
I've been playing with the thought of creating a production plate that matches the current state of the car I'm restoring.
Reflecting the color change of the car(from 181 to 462) and hardtop(from 181 to 040) as well as skipping code 491(US car) to match the new Euro specs of the car. I would as John did, keep the original plate, and be fully open about the origin of the car to a potential buyer, in the unlikely event that I would ever sell the car.
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Well, I figure you guys deserve to know which car it is, since it's recently been listed on e-bay... here's the link:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cars-Trucks___WORLD-CLASS-250SL-Pagoda-W113-280SL_W0QQitemZ180325337356QQddnZCarsQ20Q26Q20TrucksQQddiZ2282QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item180325337356&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=72%3A317%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Cars-Trucks___WORLD-CLASS-250SL-Pagoda-W113-280SL_W0QQitemZ180325337356QQddnZCarsQ20Q26Q20TrucksQQddiZ2282QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Cars_Trucks?hash=item180325337356&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=72%3A317%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318)
Maybe we'll be able to tell what buyers think about it, except for the fact that the color change was not disclosed in the listing as well as John mentioned he'd do contingent upon selling the car. I foresee at least a surprised buyer or maybe a hammer price on e-bay that doesn't really reflect what the final payment on the car is, like Mdsalemi wrote a few weeks back.
Andres G
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That interior looks good enough to eat!
I can only dream of mine looking like that one day-- then again it already looks half-eaten! ;D
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Beautifull looking car. Shame about the color change.
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... except for the fact that the color change was not disclosed in the listing ...
Andres,
when you considered buying the car did you look at the paint tag? Does it show the code for the original color or the current code (180)?
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Andres,
when you considered buying the car did you look at the paint tag? Does it show the code for the original color or the current code (180)?
I did. The tag shows the original color. I'll find a picture of it and post it later.
That interior looks good enough to eat!
I can only dream of mine looking like that one day-- then again it already looks half-eaten! ;D
The interior is not my first choice of color for a Silver car, but it looks so darn nice I liked it anyway.
Andres
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It is nice to know that the Motoring Investments did not change the original tag during the restoration, and frankly, I would not have expected it from the owner.
I prefer sellers/dealers who keep the "birth certificate" just what it is and don't change it into a "passport" where after every renewal you can see how we change from "red haired and bushy tailed" to "graying and thinning", to a "white half moon", and finally a "bald egg". ;D
In the past an asking price of 60K would not have been unreasonable considering the extensive restoration.
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In the past an asking price of 60K would not have been unreasonable considering the extensive restoration.
Totally agree... however, like Bob said: The times, they are A-changin'
Here's the picture as promised:
(http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/8242/dataplatexy3.jpg)
Regards,
Andres G
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Andres,
Not sure if you're still considering the car, but here's what I noted looking at your tag picture and the ebay pics
Painted relays on a "fully restored World Class 250 SL"? What looks as unchanged front shocks, both front fenders seems to have been replaced, wrong colored sun visors matching the old interior(unless they're brown/beige from stains), rough trunk floor, US headlights on a Euro ca, late style 280 taillights, black wiper blades(I hate that), probably old repainted fueltank, missing rubber strips for hood, color change etc.
I have great respect for Brian at MI, and I've personally seen several of the 100k range cars at his shop, but it seems he had his reasons for why this car would not be in a higher price range with or without the color change.
Still a terrific looking car though.
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Thanks for the input Hans. I'm sure there'll be plenty of details that could be worked on in this specific SL. Unfortunately, I guess knowing it has a green soul has turned me down and away from it.
I continue to monitor the auction, but I foresee it will not sell or reach reserve on ebay. If it were to reach a low reserve (around 40 k) I think I might jump on it.
Andres
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So many good points being raised. Personally, I have never bought, and never would buy, a color change car. Why? Mostly personal preference. I am a stickler for originality, but, that's just me. Does it hurt the value to change the color? In my opinion, most definitely. Most buyers will ask if the color is the original color. If not, they ask for a lower price that would reflect a total repaint. That being said, there are some amazing cars out there that have had color changes. Their owners are fine with that. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but if they ever sell, they will find that most buyers will deduct for the change.
John
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Generally speaking there is little tolerance for modifications in the Mercedes community. A color change is a major modification in my book. I wouldn't touch a color changed collector car.
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Generally speaking there is little tolerance for modifications in the Mercedes community.
I disagree. There are all kinds of modifications possible on any car. I don't think you can make such a blanket statement about the entire 'community' (if there is such a thing). Between collectors and drivers, there's a whole range of personalities involved in ownership.
For me, it essentially boils down to respect for the car. Modifying the body shape in any way is disrespectful, but installing a rear-axle with another diff ratio is not. Putting in a Chevy V8 is disrespectful, but installing vented rotors is not. Painting any of the chrome to match body colour is disrespectful (believe me, I've seen it!), but changing the body colour is not-- especially if the new colour was an original option.
I believe both Michael Salemi and Bob Possel have shown tremendous respect for their cars :)
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Especially when it's a better color than original. Green with a red inside? Did they only drive it at Christmastime?
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When you look for decades (literally!) for a color combination that was available, but never find it, you have two choices. I chose to buy a white car and change it to black with parchment leather. It was either that or never get the colors I wanted. I don't think the market will miss one white car, and to my eye, I have substantially improved the value of it. If I would ever sell it, I would fully disclose the original colors to the potential buyer.
I have seen many a 300sl with color changes, and there always seems to be a market for them.
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Good points Wagas and Bogeyman.
I still have some doubts about that Silver 250 car ever having had a red interior from the factory, when looking at the sun visors they clearly seem to be yellow/beige colored and not Grey as they would have come originally with a red interior.
Those beige looking sun visors would match a cognac or bamboo interior that again would go well with a mossgreen exterior.
Andres, did you ever get a chance to look at the datacard for the MI car?
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Reading all the comments that have been made has been most interesting, enjoyable and enlightening. There have been good points by both camps, but if you revert to the original question of " how does the changing of the original color affect resale value" then the answer appears to be:
a. There will be a number of people who will not be interested in buying the car under any circumstances
b. There will be a number of people that will not be interested in buying the car, that is, unless the price was low enough to entice them.
c. There will be a number of people who will be happy to buy the car and will pay what ever they think is reasonable for the condition presented
as they like or wanted that color.
I guess a non quantifiable part of this question will be that if more people are interested in buying a car will it gain a higher price, certainly at an auction that appears to be the case, however, in the end a buyer will pay what ever he thinks is a reasonable price if it is what he wants and is happy with. A perfect case of market forces in action.
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Well put, Garry.
For what it's worth there were 17 bidders for the E-Bay subject car, no sale, reserve not met. High bid around $45K (U.S.), buy it now price appeared to be around $60K (U.S.).
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Very good and interesting replies indeed. I'm almost proud of actually starting a thread on this forum that attracted this much interest. As for myself, I've realized that what Garry states above is very true and descriptive. I seem to be part of the "b" group and most people I've talked about the subject with, as well as the ones that posted in this thread, belong to either groups "b" or "c".
Andres, did you ever get a chance to look at the datacard for the MI car?
Unfortunately, I did not. Brian did not have the datacard or a copy of it...
Regarding some of your prior observations, the taillights are actual model accurate, as it was an Italian car (see the amber turn signal section of them is much smaller than the later type). The rest of the comments were very useful too, as I'd not noticed the wiper color change or the missing weatherstripping on the hood.
For what it's worth there were 17 bidders for the E-Bay subject car, no sale, reserve not met. High bid around $45K (U.S.), buy it now price appeared to be around $60K (U.S.).
I put the 45K bid in there, hoping that would meet reserve or put me close enough to it so that Brian would consider a Second Chance Offer... I am yet to call him to discuss, but it seems he's not too flexible on the price and I just don't think it's worth more than that (considering not only the color change, but other things that are not completely perfect with it).
I guess I'll just have to continue searching. All is good though, I love learning about these cars, plus I've gotten to meet and know some very particular individuals while checking out cars, many of them worth writing a book about...
Andres G
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Andres,
I was a little too quick while observing those taillights. You're absolutely right, they are correct for that car. I even have an NOS taillight like that lying here somewhere, should have noticed that one. That's pretty amazing that the car still retains those tail lights in what seems to be pretty decent condition.
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Andres G,
Brian at MI seems to have some other Pagodas that, to me, are much better "buys" than the 67 250SL. The silver 69 4-speed appears to be a very correct, California car. All numbers and codes are correct and there's documentation with the car. Have you looked at that car? I honestly think that the silver/red car may possibly not be worth the money that has been put into it. As beautiful as it appears to be, it's not what it appears to be(if you know what I mean).
John M
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Andres G,
Brian at MI seems to have some other Pagodas that, to me, are much better "buys" than the 67 250SL. The silver 69 4-speed appears to be a very correct, California car. All numbers and codes are correct and there's documentation with the car. Have you looked at that car? I honestly think that the silver/red car may possibly not be worth the money that has been put into it. As beautiful as it appears to be, it's not what it appears to be(if you know what I mean).
John M
John,
Thanks for your input. I have thought much about the type and model car I (we) would like to get and I've come to the conclusion that there are certain things I need the car to have for it to fit the bill and float my boat. I will probably export this car sometime in the future when my career path takes me either back home to Argentina or somewhere else, probably Asia... but in the end, this car will end up with me in South America (hopefully). Most american models are very unpopular in these parts of the world, due to their needs for special parts that are only common and available in the US and hard to find everywhere else, therefore hurting their resale value somehow.
To put this in perspective, a nicely kept W107 with less than 70K miles from 1975 can bring upwards of US$ 40K in Argentina, while a US Spec car with an auto may bring roughly half of that. This is even more evident with the W113 as they are so rarely seen for sale and when they do, nice ones go for more than $100K (I've seen and driven one that sold for $145K a little over a year ago - beautiful!) while a 280 that was for sale from a former employee of the US embassy only brought around $35K and I believe it was a nice combo. I've even heard rumors stating that a 230 owned by Juan Manuel Fangio is hidden somewhere in a warehouse while it's current owner awaits for the right time to sell it. I wonder how much that one will go for...
Anyway, aside from the resale value, there are features I do not like from the US spec cars myself, such as the headlights and side markers, the door pockets and the bumperettes to name a few. I can easily work these out of an existing car, but why do this when I can continue to look for a car that fits my preference more closely? I've had and continue to have a great time while looking for the right Pagoda, I guess I can relate this to the thrill and excitement one feels when trying to seduce a woman ;)
Regarding the silver one from MI, I really liked the way the car looks, but I too feel it is not what it appears to be - thus my 45K maximum offer for it.
Thanks again,
Andres G
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I did say "generally speaking" and I hold strong to this opinion. I will, however, re-phrase. Generally speaking most mercedes enthusiasts prefer cars without significant cosmetic modifications. I will leave the word "significant" to be interpreted however you like. I, for example, replaced the matte horn ring on a 72 220/8 with a shiny one. I don't consider this to be major and I occasionally disapprove of my minor modification.
I disagree. There are all kinds of modifications possible on any car. I don't think you can make such a blanket statement about the entire 'community' (if there is such a thing). Between collectors and drivers, there's a whole range of personalities involved in ownership.
For me, it essentially boils down to respect for the car. Modifying the body shape in any way is disrespectful, but installing a rear-axle with another diff ratio is not. Putting in a Chevy V8 is disrespectful, but installing vented rotors is not. Painting any of the chrome to match body colour is disrespectful (believe me, I've seen it!), but changing the body colour is not-- especially if the new colour was an original option.
I believe both Michael Salemi and Bob Possel have shown tremendous respect for their cars :)
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I did say "generally speaking" and I hold strong to this opinion. I will, however, re-phrase. Generally speaking most mercedes enthusiasts prefer cars without significant cosmetic modifications. I will leave the word "significant" to be interpreted however you like.
Fair enough, and well-said. :)
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The choice of color is individual, whilst I understand that some prefer the colors as originally prescribed by the factory, There are generational groups who are less concerned about the color and more about the condition. Today manufacturers such as BMW and Mercedes offer " Individual" cars where both paint color, interior materials ( Ostrich Leather) and other minor specifications can be ordered as a premium option. In the future are we suggesting that they will be viewed upon with a lower market value?
If the color suits the vintage than I for one would not be concerned about color ,if it was to my liking. If on the other hand it is some iridescent pink than I assume the desire would be less and thus be reflected in the resale value
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Special color cars ordered today would have a car plate, an order form, an invoice, or the equal of a Data Card to show the original special color. If a special color car of today became a collector car in years to come, by looking at one of these items, the buyer would know if the color on the car was original.
Actually this is no different than if one of our W113 cars was ordered in a special color, perhaps a tint available for another Mercedes model of the period. The special color would appear on the Data Card.
Richard M, NYC
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There's no doubt that there have been two brilliant deductions that have been brought forward by this esteemed group:
1. The owner of the car should have any color he wants. We have those who care about originality, and those who couldn't care less about originality.
2. A color change from the original, in most cases, will lower the value of a car to most serious buyers.
I think we have skewered this topic. Let's continue with the tow (toe) ring and tie down theory now.
John
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Forgive me brethren and sisteren for I have sinned. I was selfishly thinking only of myself and not of those mythical people who might want to consider buying my car, if and when I decide to part with it, either from senility or death. My sin is especially dishonorable when one considers that I have changed not only the body color but, (mirable dictu!) the carpet color and interior color as well. That's thirty lashes!
Perhaps were one to open a discussion "How does changing the original color affect value?, I could be forgiven of these sins, for much of what I perceive as the value of my car is how much earthly pleasure it gives me.
Pax vobiscum,
Joe
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Great and fun post Joe! If it where up to me I'd forgive you. But then again I am a sinner myself so I that probably would exclude me from having a saying in this.
John's post that effectively almost managed to close down this quite interesting thread, led me to find his story about his red 68 280 SL and the communication between DB and the original owner during the ordering process. A very interesting story with unique documentation indeed.
I don't know how I missed that one since it's on the home page of this site.
But I am very confused as to in what category to put John Mancini? Looking at his red car, he clearly belongs in the "those who couldn't care less about originality" category(with that Nardi steering wheel), then again looking at his blue car indicates that he might belong on
the other side after all. ;-)
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;D Ahhhhh yes, I too am a sinner. But not in the "Pagoda sense". I had a long conversation with my dear 68 red 280SL, and explained to her that Mr. Nardi was not going to be part of her life forever. Mr. Nardi was just a little "temporary friend" that I added to spice up her life. About once a week I pull out her original black steering wheel and hold it up in front of her headlights. I can almost sense a slight smile on her grill when I do that. I do, however, repent weekly. I confess to Father Maloney about my lust for wooden steering wheels. It's a problem I have had for years. Counseling has been no help.
Remorsefully yours,
John
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;D Ahhhhh yes, I too am a sinner. But not in the "Pagoda sense". I had a long conversation with my dear 68 red 280SL, and explained to her that Mr. Nardi was not going to be part of her life forever. Mr. Nardi was just a little "temporary friend" that I added to spice up her life. About once a week I pull out her original black steering wheel and hold it up in front of her headlights. I can almost sense a slight smile on her grill when I do that. I do, however, repent weekly. I confess to Father Maloney about my lust for wooden steering wheels. It's a problem I have had for years. Counseling has been no help.
Remorsefully yours,
John
John, nice story on your car. I read it for the first time. Like yours, my car is very original. While the person I bought it from was the second owner, I have every receipt from 1971 (car is '67). He too was meticulous and kept the car in unreal condition.
Question: Did you recover your seats in original tex or leather? I see you put whitewalls on.
It's interesting that the fellow asked for medium red, which actually is a color MB offered and looks like the 230s in the brochures, but that MB gave him signal red 568. In the picture with his mother, the car actually does look medium red.
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Hi John,
I recovered the seats in Tex. The paint is original on the car. I'm sure there has been some fading since new. I love the fact that it's an original paint car. You can never tell colors from photos. They can be very deceiving, depending on the lighting. I just bought a 1966 230SL. The color is 162 blue/grey. It looked very blue in the photos, but in person it appears very grey. I can't see any blue in it. By the way, your car looks spectacular. Your photos are terrific. Great job John.
John
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Hi John,
I recovered the seats in Tex. The paint is original on the car. I'm sure there has been some fading since new. I love the fact that it's an original paint car. You can never tell colors from photos. They can be very deceiving, depending on the lighting. I just bought a 1966 230SL. The color is 162 blue/grey. It looked very blue in the photos, but in person it appears very grey. I can't see any blue in it. By the way, your car looks spectacular. Your photos are terrific. Great job John.
John
Blue/grey is a great color. My 190 SL is DB317 grey/blue. It's great, always looks different in different light.
My car is not original paint, but was repainted in the original Herberts 568 Signal Red in 1975. He wanted to be absolutely sure to use the EXACT paint that the factory did. The interior is all original except for the door sill carpet and a refinish of the dash wood because the owner didn't like the way the factory did it and wanted to bring out the beauty of the wood!