Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => General Discussion => Topic started by: Peter van Es on January 01, 2009, 17:02:03
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Now that we've completed our first full month of operation with the new website I'd like to take this opportunity to share some interesting behind the scenes details with you.
Please look at the attached ZIP file which contains a PDF file which gives statistics on the use of our website.
We had 6946 unique visitors this month, who visited the site 18000 times. On average a visitor views 16 pages per visit. Note that based on these statistics, about half our visitors are unknown guests (i.e. people without a membership or registration on the site). These are actually pretty good numbers, and I'm sure that banner advertisers who sell goods and services of interest to our membership would be keen to advertise on our site... but we are not going to introduce that!
The US is by far the largest location of our visitors, the figures from the Netherlands are inflated because I spend a reasonable amount of time on the site. UK, Canada and Australia are also well represented. Notable is the lack of German visitors, interesting is that we have quite a following from people in China, Poland and so on.
My IP address 80.101.216.79 is a high volume user -- especially in bandwidth -- because I make a copy of all of the database every night.
You can see that Yahoo! and Google spend a fair bit of time retrieving and indexing our site.
87% of our users use Windows, 10% a Macintosh (which is probably a little inflated since I use a Mac and am a frequent visitor).
About 92,5% of visits come to us directly (i.e. from a Bookmark) and of the remainder more than half finds us via Google. Notable is that there are very few sites that link to us...
If you'd like to help us be even more successful, try and get other sites to take a link to us at http://www.sl113.org/, as Pagoda SL Group... that is probably the only way we can get more traffic and end up higher in the search rankings.
We still have a fairly high number of 404 errors, which are caused by many search engines still having links to old forum and website URL's. For Yahoo! and Google I have created sitemaps which lead to them cleaning up their indexes soon, deleting old references so I expect that number of errors to go down over the next few months.
Then onto our own heartbeat:
- We have around 2.17 new members register each day (67 in November, 46 in December)
- About 30 new posts are made each day
- During the transfer to the new site in November I cleaned out the old member details, and we currently have 1313 members
- Today, 249 of these are Full Members
- The new automated payment interface means that people are quicker to both renew and join... about 40 people did so in November and December, 20 of whom were NEW members. It is a far easier process now, as the full membership is activated immediately.
I conclude that we are alive and well as a community, but that we should do our best to spread the word of our existence on the Internet.
I do hope that in 2009 we will have a number of events where we can meet fellow members in person!
Peter
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Peter,
Job well done, as we all know.
Bob
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Well done Peter and a happy new year!
Gerard Wuisman.
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Hats off to you, Peter. How many of us would have been lost without the help of the members on this site. Your work facilitating our hobby is well appreciated. I have tried all the BMW (my other cars) and VW sites I can find, and not one holds a candle to this. Thanks for the update and thanks for keeping the site so clean from clutter.
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I confess, I am one of the 92.5% ;D
Great job on a great site, Peter. A huge asset for all!
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Kudus for a wonderful site. I'm an active member of the MGA, Jaguar, Corvette, BMW (e9 3.0CS), and Supra/Lexus forums. I can tell you that not one of the sites holds a candle to this one in terms of organization, content, technical info, and purposeful contributors (not too much "white noise" in the form of useless posts).
I'm grateful for your work in guiding this group to excellence!
Phil from Texas
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Interesting stats indeed. I've never seen such stats regarding internet traffic before actually...
Also interesting that the site is getting a lot of visits from China. I travel there for business at least 2-3 times a month and have never seen a classic car there. Would imagine import restrictions would be quite tough as well. Also interesting because there is no registered member from China at all!
Perhaps the reason for little participation from Germany is because they have there own very active site in German??
Thanks for the excellent site, Peter.
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By the way, Peter, that membership renewal function on the website is the best idea. I just tried it out and it's great. Things like wire transfers, bank cheques etc are the main reason why I am always late for all kinds of overseas payments. Salute to that one.
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Also interesting that the site is getting a lot of visits from China. I travel there for business at least 2-3 times a month and have never seen a classic car there. Would imagine import restrictions would be quite tough as well. Also interesting because there is no registered member from China at all!
Perhaps the reason for little participation from Germany is because they have there own very active site in German??
China references in the statistics include Hong Kong... so your clicks count too, Eryck! However, I think with so many people in China some are bound to get to our site once in a while.
And yes, the lack of german traffic is caused by http://www.pagodentreff.de/, which serves the German speaking contingent very well. I would have hoped though that Dominik (of Pagodentreff) would have pointed his membership to our Technical Manual a bit more, and perhaps it might be possible to translate, with his approval, and convert some of their excellent articles to put them in our Technical Manual.
And thanks for the compliments on the payment side... I thought the improved membership functions and immediate activation would pay off, and they do!
Peter
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Kudos and many thanks for all your efforts. Not sure how much traffic it will direct, but I posted a link on my Facebook page. My two cents on the high traffic from China - unclear why, but that seems to be a universal stat. I get quite a few hits from China on my own little blog, which is about renovating a 1900s foursquare, something I wouldn't think you find any of in China, but what do I know.
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Well, with over one billion people and over two or three hundred million internet users in China, chances are good I suppose.
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May I suggest that the group sets up a dedicated Youtube, Flikkr, site with all videos, pics, gallery of members cars, events, DIY, rally, etc. with an embded web link image at bottom. Not sure if Facbook, Myspace or Twitter could be set up in same manner.
Ultimately, banner ads from the 1/2 dozen US or EU restoration specific shops for the SL (Sports Leicht, Hatch, SLTech, ARI, Scott, Paull Russel) might be a good idea.
Many other niche enthusiast sites have a small number of Sponsor advertisers, and pumping-up or dumping-on their reputations is discouraged.
Works well, and brings in traffic & $, with little censorship or issues.
As an aside Mercedes does not register high on rankings of automotive fora (#60) in general; this might be due to age deomgraphics (50s) or lack of entry-sport/tuner or halo/supercar model. Hopefully the sub-SL concept will have a rally/club racer option like Mini Works.
Most of the Top 10 sites are tuner related (Asian) or modern (VwVortex, Corvette Forum, etc).
BMW has done a very good job (BimmerForum, Bimmerfest, 3 series/M3) and their fora are prominent in Top 20.
Ranking
http://www.big-boards.com/kw/cars/
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odd you should say that, k
The DDK forum has banner ads and quite active participation from restorers and the like. That's their choice but it is a different approach but I was a little surprised that we don't have a similar situation with pros (I know we have a few) actively participating.
http://www.ddk-online.com/phpBB2/index.php (http://www.ddk-online.com/phpBB2/index.php)
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We do encourage... and hope that professionals do share their knowledge on the forums. We have set aside a commercial board on the forum for them to advertise in. Dan Caron and Joe Alexander are currently the only ones that can make use of this commercial forum, but it does not see a lot of use. Commercial messages in all other forums are frowned upon and sometimes challenged and removed behind the scenes.
The Board decided not to have banner ads a long time ago. Hence there is no advertising visible anywhere on this website. That decision could obviously be changed but would require a board decision. I suggest that if you feel strongly that we would need to offer banner advertising in order to attract more professional involvement then you start lobbying with the Board.
Finally, on those rankings... I don't particularly attach much value to them. First of all, most of those message boards are for much more common cars than ours, or for an entire marque, thereby attracting more people in general.
As frequently commented, we have a level of sharing, technical knowledge and community on this board that is unequalled in most other boards. That, coupled with the 67000 messages we have, is actually indicative of a very lively community, especially given the number of members we have (1300). Do that ratio calculation (messages/members) for any of the other boards in that ranking table and you'll see what I mean!
Peter
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I think Banner Ads would destroy the unique non commercial feel and nature of this group who share their knowledge without the thought of commercial gain from what ever background they come from. There are lots of other Benz sites that do have banners that are not a patch on our Pagoda SL Group. We have a forum for commercial advertising and anyone who regularly reads the forums knows who the commercial members are that they can go to and use and trust.
If on the other hand we need to sell our souls to remain viable then that may be another proposition but I don't think that has been suggested at this point. Maybe if that was the situation then we would need to have a push for more Full Members (maybe by tightening up the level of access to the users of this unique group who are not willing to pay for Full Membership).
Garry
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Thanks to all involved, _especially_ Peter's great effort in transferring the data from the old forum to the new software.
However...
This is certainly a great WEBsite and a great WEBforum with a very avid membership community from all over the world, that contribute over the WEB to make this a great source of information.
But I'd like to see more of the CLUB side of things: regional MEETings, perhaps in partnership with the local MBCA groups (or not), more SOCIAL events where people can share ideas and forge friendships. I'd like to see a percentage of dues spent toward funding more local events.
We currently have only one official event: Blacklick, hosted by Joe and Mary Alexander. This happens every other year. How about expanding the program to host more social events? If we want more folks to become full-members, how about a full-member ONLY event on one of those evenings?
Regarding dues, what is our primary expenditure? Keeping up the website (webspace, software maintenance, licenses, etc) and publishing Pagoda World and the newsletter. Personally, I think the newsletter is superfluous, and all those articles would make better copy in the PW magazine, in addition to possibly helping with improving PW frequency. I really think we should allocate some of our membership dues toward more events, or improving the CLUB side of our existing events, or something like that.
[didn't someone else raise some of these points a while back?? I can't find that post anywhere...]
Anyhow, I'm really excited about what we've achieved with our web-forum and the progress on the technical manual. Now, I'd really like us to start developing the club side of things.
What say you?
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with you entirely
The international nature of the group - and it's www based origins - means we are pretty widely dispersed mob. We are also not the "youngest" crowd so we are car rich but often time poor (with many other demands on our time)
But yes, it's down to us to make that happen and try to participate in those events that are organised. We all appreciate the "bigger" events and the scale and benefits they create but frankly getting out for a drive and a (pub) lunch should be supported
I'm in!
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I've only recently been spending some time on the site as I have just acquired the car.
I find it very informative so far and think it wiill prove to be a great resource once I get going in the spring and beyond.
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So, James,
Which pub, and when?
James
PS - Father Christmas bought me a classic driving routes map of the Cotswolds, so we're not completely without a plan!
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Cotswolds is miles away. I can't make that, it's too far and will take too much time ;D
;)
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Now I quite like the Costwolds, much better than Bradford. Not that I've anything against Bradford of course it's just not as nice as the Cotswolds.
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Finally, on those rankings... I don't particularly attach much value to them. First of all, most of those message boards are for much more common cars than ours, or for an entire marque, thereby attracting more people in general.
Peter
The rankings of VwVortex, Corvette Forum and even Bimmerforum are indisputabale; they appear in the Top 10 of vitually every car internet list. Their Alexa rankings cannot be manipultated, and registered member totals speak for themselves.
Re: Banner ads. Fair enough...
How about a Youtube site?
There are llike 25 SL Videos on Youtube and except 2-3 most are rubbish (some guy driving with camera on dash). Seems like folks here could just walk around their cars with a cam or discuss a DIY project, (even still shots in a powepoint) or record a tech session or local car show.
That will drive traffic for free....though comments can be frank.
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The rankings of VwVortex, Corvette Forum and even Bimmerforum are indisputabale; they appear in the Top 10 of vitually every car internet list. Their Alexa rankings cannot be manipultated, and registered member totals speak for themselves.
I'm actually occasionally on the VwVortex forum... but it clearly appeals to a much wider audience than our Pagoda SL forum. There were 48912 Pagoda's built, over 40 years ago. We have 1300 members and 50 posts per member. I really do not see any justification for comparing our group to the VwVortex forum. We will NEVER get 500 thousand members. It just is not possible. Additionally, we are a very different group. We organise live events. I'm sure they don't.
With regard to videos, we have a number posted on Youtube... and they are all linked here: http://www.sl113.org/index.php/Video.html and http://www.sl113.org/index.php/VideoInstruction.html. But you are welcome to create a Youtube group if you like.
This is certainly a great WEBsite and a great WEBforum with a very avid membership community from all over the world, that contribute over the WEB to make this a great source of information.
But I'd like to see more of the CLUB side of things: regional MEETings, perhaps in partnership with the local MBCA groups (or not), more SOCIAL events where people can share ideas and forge friendships. I'd like to see a percentage of dues spent toward funding more local events.
We currently have only one official event: Blacklick, hosted by Joe and Mary Alexander. This happens every other year. How about expanding the program to host more social events? If we want more folks to become full-members, how about a full-member ONLY event on one of those evenings?
Regarding dues, what is our primary expenditure? Keeping up the website (webspace, software maintenance, licenses, etc) and publishing Pagoda World and the newsletter. Personally, I think the newsletter is superfluous, and all those articles would make better copy in the PW magazine, in addition to possibly helping with improving PW frequency. I really think we should allocate some of our membership dues toward more events, or improving the CLUB side of our existing events, or something like that.
This really is something for Board members to address. However, we are primarily a Pagoda interest group, we do not aim to compete with local country Mercedes Benz clubs. They do typically not compete on our level of knowledge on Pagoda's, but we do not have sufficiently widespread local representation to be able to organise events everywhere -- we certainly encourage people to go to these MB associated club events to meet other members. Especially since we aim to be an international Pagoda club (it's in our charter) we have to use the WEB to exist. And we do so pretty effectively.
Cees Klumper, Naj, Garry, Tosh (are you at PUB ?), myself and others typically make an effort to attend the Pagoda University Blacklick (PUB). We don't manage all the time, every year. However, do you realise we organised two events in Europe? One in the Netherlands and one in the UK? Invitations, pictures, video, all was posted here. Cees and I are thinking about an event in France in 2010 and we would hope to entice some of our non-European members to attend that.
The point I'm trying to make is that if we divert club monies to events that are likely to be held in the US, and would attract US members only, we would start competing with the US Mercedes-Benz association, and we start losing the interest of members overseas. Members, without whose efforts this group and this website would not exist in the form it is today.
The Board has at some point in the past decided that:
- we encourage as many people to join our group as possible
- we offer many valuable services for free to all
- we try and find full members who contribute to our fixed costs (website hosting and Pagoda World and newsletter)
- but they benefit from this... and non-paying members are encouraged to become paying
In addition this club runs on international volunteer effort:
- events we organise are accessible to as many people as we can find (not just Full Members, but we do hope that those that attend find enough value to cough op the minimal charge of US$30 or EUR25 to become and remain members...
- Joe and Mary Alexander organise the PUB as a labour of love
- Pagoda World is edited and put together by volunteers
- and so is the website...
That's why I would be very careful of linking the Pagoda SL Group closer to the MBCA activities (it will make it more of a US club than an International group and potentially alienate lots of people) and making it more linked to full membership.
Finally and ultimately this is a decision of the membership of the group and the board of directors. I invite them all to speak up and pass on their views...
Peter
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I think you put it quite well as far as I am concerned Peter. I think Pagoda enthusiasts can find a lot of information here and, what's even better, solid support from fellow enthusiasts whenever they have a particular problem. To boot, there is a very positive and friendly atmosphere that adds to the attraction of frequenting the site.
Finances - I am in the process of pulling together our financial statements again; our income from full membership dues is sufficient to support our current operations, so we don't at this time need to look to additional sources of funding e.g. through solliciting advertising. I happen to like the lack of banners and other advertising on the site.
Because of the large geographical spread of our members, I personally always encourage any live events to be financed through participant contributions, and that is how the Blacklick and other live events have been managed to date. The risk of the club starting to fund local events is that this will 'subsidize' those members in a position to attend such local event, while most other members will always be unable to attend because of the sheer geographical distances involved. In the end, the same cost is generated by the membership, so there would be actually no aggregate benefit from sponsoring events by the club, only this one serious drawback (at least in my opinion).
As for competing with other (national) clubs, I think we have so far always been able to work together with, and alongside, other MB clubs and have stayed away from being competitive. Most larger clubs cater to all Mercedes cars (starting from a certain age in many cases) and thus have a different focus - so there is actually no need to compete. Whenever I get calls or emails from Dutch Pagoda owners wanting to know about membership, I always encourage them to sign up as a basic member and also look into joining our general Dutch MB (recognized) club because some people look more for opportunities to take part in live events than others.
As we continue to grow I am hopeful there will be more live events, but there has to be critical mass in a geography to do this succesfully and, even more important, a lot of volunteer time and initiative present.
The ideal end result for me, if I can dream a little, is to ultimately have the majority of Pagoda owners worldwide make use of and be a part of this community, in whatever form that works best for them and their enjoyment of this elegant car.
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We do encourage... and hope that professionals do share their knowledge on the forums. We have set aside a commercial board on the forum for them to advertise in. Dan Caron and Joe Alexander are currently the only ones that can make use of this commercial forum, but it does not see a lot of use.
I think that the commercial forum was locked for some time on the old site and maybe some commercial vendors didn't realize that it is now "Open for Business" Maybe a sticky at the top explaining what the forum is for and what the ground rules are would get it going. I appreciate this approach over banners. It makes it clear to me that this is a site set up by enthusiasts, not created by a commercial interest in order to sell their products. (Not that there's anything wrong with that)
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A new month, a new set of statistics...
Please look at the attached ZIP file which contains a PDF file which gives statistics on the use of our website.
We see a slight increase in numbers in January over December, and a small reduction in February, due to the shorter month. We have a fairly consistent number of visitors per day, of around 600-700. The average number of pages viewed per visit is 17, which is very, very high for any website.
The US is by far the largest location of our visitors. The Russian numbers are distorted -- look at the number of visits versus pageviews, this indicates largely one page viewed per visit. This is caused by many Russian robots aiming to register to post Forum spam. As new members know, two months ago I introduced a new Captcha (a software device that requires a small puzzle to be solved before people can register) which has proved very effecive and cannot yet be solved by these robots. Even better, every time someone solves the puzzle, he/she helps to digitize books.
Our English language does show in that after the US, the largest audience is the UK, then Australia and then Canada... other native languages fall far short of these numbers. The Netherlands are in fact the first non-English speaking country.
Another interesting tidbit is that in January I reported that in December 10% of our users use a Macintosh -- in February this increased to 14%. Internet Explorer is still on the decline.
Richard Madison's site is now linking to us, and that has given us 86 referrals. Still there are very few sites that link to us, and we need to encourage more to make us more successful. I would like to ask every member to try and get at least one web-site (of a local car club, another relevant forum you post on, or your private home page) to link to us...
Then onto our own heartbeat:
- We still have around 2.18 new members register each day (67 in November, 46 in December, 55 in January, 67 in February)
- About 33 new posts are made each day
- We currently have 1446 members
- We grew from 249 Full Members at the end of December to 265 at the end of February, an increase of 16 members... So don't delay, join TODAY!
Peter
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End of April, time for new statistics. I changed to Google Analytics, and attached is the report. Makes for interesting reading... One key thing these Google Analytics reports allow me to do is to fine tune the site so that we get found more often. It also allows Google to recognise that when people find us with a certain search term, and then read many pages on our site, they increase our site's relevance in the index. As a result you'll see (on p4) our Search Engine visits go up slowly during the month...
Other things to note:
- our bounce rate is around 24%... that means that 24% of all visitors go away after seeing just one page. For most websites, the bounce rate is over 50%. It means that (a) we get found by people who are looking for stuff on Pagoda's, and (b) our content is compelling
- 60% of traffic is direct, i.e. from people who've bookmarked us
- people on average read over 10 pages per visit, and spend about 8 minutes on the site. These are pretty exceptional figures by any standard
- in April we had 5102 unique visitors. We have 1615 registered users today... it means that still over 3000 unregistered visitors look at us... would there really be that many Pagodas out and about?
- Check the Goals Overview (p5). It tracks how many people register (Goal 1) and how many people actually pay us (Goal 2 - for renewal or joining). In April we had 124 new registrations and 49 payments (= $1470). The monetary value does not mean that much, since I mistakenly also awarded a value to a Registration ($3, on the premise that one out of 10 registrations becomes a full member) but later on I corrected that mistake.
- The map overlay (p6) shows where our traffic comes from... to those outside of the US: we must do better!
Anyway, I hope you find this interesting!
Peter
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All intersting thoughts.
A stand alone convention is possible without MBCA participation providing we have enough people show up. 20 cars or more would be a good number with at least 75 people in attendance. There would be nothing wrong with inviting the local chapter to come out if they wish as I've seen at several 190SL Group conventions.
They have a hand book set up which outlines what a host should do to organise an event.
The 190SL Group expects their members and guests to pay their own way through a registration fee for rooms and other exspenses. The group will under write the convention if something goes wrong but the host is expected to present a budjet to the BOD and sits in on quarterly meetings for a full year before convention. Their report is on the board agenda. It's not done half assed or anything.
If the 113 Group wishes to pay for anything ( sponsor ) at PUB then they could get a hospitality suite for those in attendance. This isn't a new idea as I've brought this up several times since the last PUB and while I was there two years ago. I think a lot of people would be happy to mingle after the days events if they had a place to go. Asking somone to open up their own room is a second option but I'd advise against it.
The web site:
It's very good, everyone says so. The site is part of the club in terms of ownership but I thnk some people may not be aware that we even have a club. Since there are a lot of internet web sites out there with car info on them it often gets treated just like any other site by people who view it as such. But it's not, it's the club's site. Perhaps a members only forum would be the answer. We need to start thinking more about the club and what it means and maybe just a tiny bit less about the web site which is inhabited with all sorts of people - many of which have zero interst in our club or any clubs for that matter.
It's fine if you don't want to have banners and stay away from those things but that's no reason to throw vendors under the bus. We have a reputation as a club to stay away from stuff like that. It's OK for ordinary web sites with little or no control over content but it looks bad on us.
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the website:
Depending on the goal, some forums let the visitor browse freely throughout the site. Most require a registration to use the search function, and then others let you see the titles or thread topics but won't let you read the posts until you register, which probably would require a payed membership.
So it seems you can either let people use the site freely and if they feel so inclined, pay and then reap the benefits of being a full member.
Or you can restrict access and require a payed membership to use the site.
Of course we all know it is well worth the money to become a member, but how many would commit without first sampling the wealth of knowledge of what the Pagoda Group has to offer?
Personally I think that the way it is setup now is the best. This way owners and prospective buyers feel welcomed and can get their feet wet first and then hopefully jump in after.
Just curious, how much is a membership in Euro's?
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the website:
Depending on the goal, ...
Exactly. But what is the goal? I've always thought the goal of the website was to further the aims of the club. How many of us know where we'd like the club to be in
2 years? 5 years? There are many car clubs out there, and there are many car websites... so what do we want ours to be? (I'm asking this question in earnest)
Of course we all know it is well worth the money to become a member, but how many would commit without first sampling the wealth of knowledge of what the Pagoda Group has to offer?
Good point. The current arrangement is indeed quite nice.
A follow-up question: once the forum has been "sampled", are the newsletter and magazine sufficiently worth it to making the upgrade to full-member status? (the answer for me personally is "yes"). If not, what would it take to convince someone to become a dues-paying club member? I honestly would love to hear opinions on this from those who are not currently full-members.
Just curious, how much is a membership in Euro's?
Last I checked, Euro25 or USD30 per annum.
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Exactly. But what is the goal?
I don't know. That's why I voted for you. :o ;D
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Gentlemen,
I am a fairly new member of this fine forum and I can't even imagine trying to compare this group of individuals to any others like it. I have been a member of several 'American Muscle Car' Groups for may years however the knowledge base of this group is head and shoulders above any.
In comparison this really is a group of 'PURIST' and I don't mean this is a bad way at all. These cars are special and singular of purpose. Unlike many of their counterparts they are very individual and very specific. Additionally we as a group are quite spread out over a huge geographical area.
In my neighborhood, I have found only 4 other SL's in a roughly 200 mile radius. Compare this to my 66 Chevy Nova, there are several hundred in that same area and there are no two alike. With and SL you can't go down to the nearest auto parts store and buy an additional 100 horse power for $1000.00 US. You can't bolt in a new rear end in a week end or take your transmission to corner shop.
The numbers are what they are, a small (relatively) production run and highly specialized technology for its time are the cross we bare.
I have benefited greatly from the collection of posts here and the depth of the tech section and even as a certified GEAR HEAD for a very long time, my new to me '69 280 is quite challenging and very rewarding to own and work on. I thank you all.
Tony
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Who, where, how, etc do I send my $30? Let's all send it in. ...
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Look straight up and click the Profile tab, and then look to the box on the left for a link to become a full member.
Congratulations!
Hopefully it becomes contagious ;)
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I tried to organize a club event here, at Black Forest, for the Pagoda group, much as I had done for the 190 SL Group when 50 members attended. I also recently mentioned Black Forest's quarterly MBCA tech session April 18th which was featuring the 113. I am a regional vice-president for the 190 SL Group and have organized, as well as attended group events both social and technical. Black Forest is a state-of-the-art Mercedes only service and restoration facility with tremendous expertise and knowledge. To say the response to my efforts was weak would be generous. It seems the only enthusiasm for a club event is PUB.
That said, thank you Mark and Bruce for attending the MBCA session. I hope it was worth your trip.
Pictures of the 190 SL event in Feb. 08
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Well John, don't feel too badly.
Back when I was also a rep on the 190SL Group I had several events that had only a few cars show up every year. Three years ago I invited everyone and we had about 13 pagodas, 4 or 5 190SL's, 107's, 220SE/S, 6.3, 300SL, late model cars and a pre war 370S Manhiem. In all, we had about 45 cars for the afternoon show and about 100 people that day.
This was a two day social event that included the car show, entertainment, dinner, car tour, and at stop at RM restoration along with other points of interest. We also had about 6 presidents of various MB clubs present, so I'd say that event was very good.
( But that's not what you shouldn't feel badly about. )
Two years ago I went to PUB and had a pretty good time. I dragged my wife along and she was kind of bored because it's mostly for guys, ( even though there was a social aspect to it ) so I wasn't too worried about that. The drive getting there was all the excitment anyone could ask for.
( This IS though )
Last year I said in Jan. ( giving everyone plenty of notice ) that I was willing to have a possible summer event in July. About 3 people showed early interest by Feb. and at the end of March or early April I asked again who would be willing to commit. Although some said not to can the event, no one actually said they were willing to show up. ( Compare that ( probably unfairly ) with PUB this year and there were well over 50 on tap by mid March this year ). It doesn't leave for a very encouraging feeling wnen you can't generate interest in a big event, so by mid April I had to call it off.
Part of hosting a weekend event calls for a lot of planning like dinners, rooms for people to stay and many other things which need to be laid out well in advance. Besides, my wife axed it anyway.... since she did most of the work for our last big event.
Now everyone will have to get a Passport to come over to Canada after June 1st but your money is worth 20% more. Other than holding the event at a convention centre to simplify some of the planning, it would be difficult to plan another.
And, this is part of what's good, and not so good about our club. It started on the internet with mostly conversation about our cars. Now that the cars have been fully covered, nut, bolt and washer, it's more than time that we evolve into a real social club with a keen awareness of just how special our cars really are.
I know I point to the 190SL Group a lot but that's only because they have a prefect template for others to copy from. Their yearly convention includes seminars, car show and concourse, banquet/dance, car driving skillis, car tour, usually a stop at some major point of interst, and an extended car tour for anyone who wants to stay on for a few more days after the main event. These guys like to drive their cars, show them off, talk about them and simply get together and have fun. Just like our guys......
I've estimated that there are about 100 190SL's and about 250 pagodas in Canada. That's not a lot of cars for a country of 32 million people. Makes owning either car an honour.
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I agree that is sad.
Perhaps it is because the events were so close together so for most people they couldn't make two trips back to back like that. I'm coming from Hawaii to PUB for the weekend. Others from even further. Maybe for a bigger turnout the events need to alternate? PUB this year, Blackforest or Dan's event next year etc... That makes sense to me.
But of course there's always the possibility that I have no idea what I am talking about.
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Well Dash (or Chan -- but Dash is so cool)... I was hoping you'd offer to hold the next event! A drive around the Island followed by some Pagoda Pupus?... :D
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Dan (Dr. Benz), the way the Pagoda Club will a have consistent large event elsewhere than Blacklick, is if the Blacklick event starts moving around to other hosts. PUB becomes the annual conclave with social, technical and driving fun and starts moving around the country with different hosts. This is said with all due respect and gratitude to Joe Alexander for what he has done and does.
BTW, my technical Black Forest offer was for February. Not the best time for cars in Wisconsin, but a nice fix for winter car guys and in no competition or conflict with PUB.
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Well Dash (or Chan -- but Dash is so cool)... I was hoping you'd offer to hold the next event! A drive around the Island followed by some Pagoda Pupus?... :D
Pagoda pupus? Now we're talking! I can get it arranged. We may not learn much, but no one will leave hungry or thirsty! ;D
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I don't think we need to move the Blacklick event anywhere. Remember: PUB takes place every other year, so there is plenty room for another large event to be held in the alternate year (roughly in late summer or even the fall).
As an open question, what would it take to get people out to another large event, held in the years when PUB is not held? (and varying locations; approximately a third of our members are across the pond and elsewhere).
Proximity? Scheduling? Critical mass? Types of events? (purely social vs. purely technical vs. something in-between)
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Ah, well........ that's my point. The event that I was planning last year wasn't conflicting with PUB - it was in the off year. 3 years ago when I had my last event some of the guys from the Pagoda club came up to join us from the Sates. There were about 6 or 7 that come to mind. The rest were from the 190SL Group, MBCC, MBCA and some of my customers with family or friends.
I pretty much had to invite all of these people ( clubs ) along with the 113 Group ( which was the featured car ) to make the numbers work. If I had depended only on the club I might of had 25 people at most since some of the club members also came from Ontario and Quebec. There was 13 or 14 pagoda cars on the front lawn which I thought was a very good turn out. 25 people would have been OK, I've had less at many events over the years. However, when you decide to go over the top a bit you need numbers to make it worth while.
I think someone in the South East was talking about hosting an event next year. Haven't heard too much about that in a while. One thing is for certain though, if people continue to show limited interest in a non-tech weekend event, the club will loose out on a lot of things. Don't get me wrong. The PUB event is a fine offering and fits in well with what we do but our wives, girlfriends/significant other, kids and families will never really understand fully why we love these cars so much.
The tech event packs a lot of stuff into two or three days and the semi formal format seems to suit everyone qute well. All I know is I probably won't get the wife to go back with me as much as she enjoyed Mary's company. Rember, she was the one who did 90% of the work at my last event now really isn't all that interested in club events any more.
I could have an event every year if I wanted to. There would always be people who would come out for a one day deal. As soon as I ask the Pagoda club to come along it means only very nearby members would show up for one day. It has to be at least a two day event ( full weekend ) to make it worth while to longer distance travellers. So, from my standpoint, do I think about it or not?
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Hello Guys,
I must agree in many respects. Having events in other parts of the world is attractive to others also. Developing the events into well organized social and technical events requires a lot of hard work, money and a tremendous amount of time. A decent group of members would have to get involved in the work. I have spaced the Pub event to two years so there is plenty of opportunity. I would always want to attend and contribute to any gathering of the group if I am able.
PUB is bit of a mystery and curiosity to the rest of the Mercedes world. No one is quite sure why it works?
I think part of it is that our group was born on the internet as a purely technical group. We did not develop as a social/technical car club established off the web like the MBCA, Gullwing Group, and M100 group. I have been to events and conventions by these groups and they are superb and enjoyable. I just got back from Star Tech 2009 (MBCA biannual Tech Session) and I enjoyed it immensely.
Our biannual (PUB) meeting continues to give a maximum amount of information and the lowest amount of cost. I am sure that this is part of the picture in these difficult financial times. However the people make the event. The quality of the members and the information is clearly important.
One of the unique qualities of PUB is that is is quite informal and relaxed. We all plan to get a little greasy. The facilities are quite modest, definitely not high tech. The emphasis is that even the basic owner can maintain and enjoy his Pagoda with basic tools, common sense, in his own home garage if he desires to do so. (Bob Possel perfect example). This is all possible because of the excellent quality of the members, the vast knowledge base and variety of Pagodas we find in our group. Our technical manual is sure to become "The Bible" of the Pagoda owner Worldwide. Our group seems to have a much more diverse age and demographic group than most of the others as a result. Everyone seems to have fun for a minimum amount of money. PUB may outgrow its Blacklick location soon or it may just run its coarse, change is normal.
My advice is that "if you build it they will come". Different events should not compete with one another but will add diversity and additional value to the group. It does not take long for the word to get around and attendance will follow. I hope to see you there and Pub 2009.
Take care,
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Many good points about developing broader appeal... but several factors can limit participation in any group; location/access are the key.
Also, some of us have many other interests that can distract from single marque participation. If I make only one event per year, it's the Monterey Historics. This year we'll take our '67 911S, but it will be the first time for us to ship a car to an event and at 3000 miles from home the farthest. The Microcars South event is biannual and is in Orlando... close, but I've only gone once and never taken the little BMW. There are several FOG events for 356's in Florida... in many years of Registry membership, we've never had time to participate. The Bulli Brigade is a great group, but requires commitment for old VW bus owners to road trip from all over the state to one location... have never had the time to do it. I used to do several track events each year with both PCA and BMWCCA but haven't made it to any the past 7. I guess my point is that social automotive events need to be local or very regional for a fairly large demographic to be successful and repeatable. Geographic location is important and can drive participation provided it's compelling enough. Proper media exposure via good PR can make a significant contribution.
Sometimes something as simple as a scenic drive and lunch or dinner as a group can be the thing that coalesces into something larger. Give spouses something more interesting than a day of tech talk.
A fun rally, for instance. But it still requires enough participants in that locality or region plus planning, communication, and the powerful abilities of a small group of people to herd cats. ;)
There are probably 20 (probably more) or so Pagodas in Palm Beach County. But is there were a way to identify and contact them for invitation to an event?
Crack that problem in 50 locations nationwide, and a sea-change in membership would be the result.
Just my .02 cents...
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My view is as follows:
- I'm a member of a local Mercedes-Benz club for social events... it's local, I can meet people outside of the events and build relationships with them, and have a good time. It's not necessarily about Pagoda's but about all Mercedes cars, and more about people.
- I enjoy classic car rallies and those are very social and much fun
- Whenever I travel and have the opportunity to meet Pagoda owners around the world that I met through this Pagoda SL club, I do so. I've met quite a few of you in person, and always found that enjoyable and fun
- I'm going to PUB because it is only about Pagoda's and I'll learn something there that I can't get anywhere else.
For me as a foreign member attending PUB is a pretty big deal. It involves making choices, and changing priorities (this year I moved the family summer vacation to attend), and a fair amount of money. Having PUB only twice a year I think is the right frequency but again, PUB is only possible because Joe and Mary Alexander initiate and run the event... they, and only they, organise this. To call it a Pagoda SL Group event would be unfair... it is a ja17 event!
Of our 300 or so paying members about 100 live outside of Canada / North America. The centering of attention around the internet, Pagoda Notes, and Pagoda World makes this a worthwhile community for them. Focussing too much on social events in North America / Canada may create two kinds of citizens... those who can, and those who practically can not attend. I would find that a shame.
Thats why I prefer keeping things the way they are. I encourage everyone to join a local club for socialising, and I encourage people to create events to which they invite the membership of this group... but it should not necessarily become a major part of this group.
By the way, my wife would probably not find attending PUB at all interesting, I would hazard to say...
Peter
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My opinion. Keep the Pagoda SL group as it is. There are many other venues and opportunities for other interests.
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My opinion. Keep the Pagoda SL group as it is. There are many other venues and opportunities for other interests.
Agreed 100%... what I'm suggesting is if there's a way to identify local owners, invitation to small events make for tight-knit local/regional single-marque communities.
Everyone likes inclusion when their interests are embraced, and a larger member list is the potential result. How would one approach state or county tax offices for vehicle registration info?
Businesses must do it or my mailbox wouldn't quarterly receive dealer and service offerings for Audis and BMWs we no longer own! (my guess is they do a poor job of updating data) ;D
I'd be more than willing to try this approach in my small spot on the globe.
As already mentioned, making the trip to PUB is a commitment, and some of us (or our significant others) aren't likely to do it. But we would sure like to be among other
SL owners if inclusive activities were more regularly accessible. Seeing a bunch of 113s driving together anywhere shouldn't be a rare occurance, at least for the drivers.
Years ago, I found a near-perfect-one-owner 27,000 mile Volvo 1800ES; my wife commuted with it. We hadn't owned it a month before someone placed a
Volvo Sport America membership application under her wiper. Naturally, we joined.
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Keep what 100% ? A tech only event every other year or everything the way it is right now?
Everyone is banking heavily on the idea that tech interst in the car will mantain and prevail above everything else. Things may have started this way but they could just as easily started in a different way. I guess it will be up to the BOD to move things along.
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I retract my "100%" comment then, Dan. If the purpose of the group is purely to engage in technical forums there will be limited participation.
Enjoying these cars for what they are doesn't require membership in SAE. How many owners that have no idea Pagoda SL Group exists really care
about those things? Any enthusiast group has a core of dedicated OCD members (and we DO appreciate collection and distribution of minutia) but
most of us just want to use our cars as intended. They're comfortable tourers; let's drive 'em so they're seen... otherwise fewer folks will even know what they are.
BMW CCA puts on their annual Oktoberfest (in '92 I was their PR Director) and attendance is quite large because the location is different each year, and activities range
from gear-head only to family events plus serious TSD and fun rallies, sometimes even a track event or club race is on the bill. Shine & Show for us regular types, Concours
for the obsessed. Obviously a single model club won't draw as large an audience but there's no reason not to try a similar approach.
The demographic may be different but that shouldn't be a negative. Make it fun, and they will come.
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The opening few quotes on our home page pretty much says it all, why we were established and our purpose in being.
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"This site and this Group were established as a source of information relating to the Mercedes W113 cars and to help maintain, restore, exhibit, and promote the ownership and admiration of these cars among the international community of W113 enthusiasts. The Pagoda SL Group is international in that it serves all W113 owners and enthusiasts in any part of the world no matter where located."
Further into the Home page it states
QUOTE
"The purpose of the Pagoda SL Group is to facilitate the sharing of information and to encourage communication among enthusiasts related to the Mercedes W113 cars. The Club seeks to assist with the care, repair, restoration, collection, and preservation of these classic cars." It also states that the group helps facilitate the "in-person events related to W113 Pagoda cars including car shows, technical sessions, track events, and others for W113 cars"
Its an International Group but most people who are members of this group, if lucky enough to own a Pagoda (or 2) are also members of local car clubs specifically designed for gathering and rallying, That is not the primary intent of this group. Remember some in the group will not necessarily have a Pagoda. We state that is is not a pre-requisite
It is an International community who are extremely fortunate enough to have a member (Joe and wife) who do the huge amount of planning necessary for a bi-annual gathering for exchange of information on how to's and to generally meet the others who are also part of the group. For some it is easy to get to PUB, for others it is a major planning process that can taking a year or more to plan and a bundle of dollars to attend. It is not only about having rallies or outings for members, a large number are so remotely spread out over the entire globe that this is not viable as a club. The forum is such that some are able to link up to have runs occasionally whether it be in USA, UK, the Continent or another remote part of the globe. Through this site I have joined up with other local Pagoda owners in my area in Australia for outings. Gathering at PUB every two years is also demonstrating that the forum is internationally strong.
But when you get back to the stated purpose of the Group, sharing information and encouraging communication among enthusiasts for the W113, together with in-person events, then this forum already not only achieves but far exceeds its purpose 100%.
Garry
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So, what I'm kind of reading is that the site and the tech event that we have right now, already meets or excccedes the mandate set out in our mission statement. Do I have that right?
If so, we still have a little ways to go in terms of fufilling our objective. To say that, '' Hey, you can get everything you need from your local XYZ club. '' kind of makes it makes it sound like we expect everyone already IS a member of said club, or clubs, and so they shouldn't expect anything more from us. People who want to be part of this ( 113 group ) should always strive for more in the interest of growing not only the membership of the pagoda group, but also what the club can become to many different people.
I really don't see why we can't have it all. Great tech event every other year, and a convention type of event in the off year. Hopefully, in time the two can be blended into one event not unlike the way the 190SL group does theirs.
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Dan,
I think that this group was set-up with international membership, and with a focus on the use of internet in mind. Remember, it started when a bunch of early members of the Yahoo group list felt that they needed more control over their destiny. Read: http://www.sl113.org/history-section.html. Most members derive sufficient value and sufficient social interaction from the forums, Pagoda World, Pagoda Notes and the Technical Manual. Why? Because the membership of this group shares knowledge freely, and that's valuable. The mechanisms we have created fulfill that knowledge sharing need sufficiently.
Sure, we could strive to make it more of a social, meet one another in person group, with frequent events. That might seem to make the group more inclusive, but I actually think it would make a lot of members feel less part of the group: those unable to attend these events. To give you a concrete example: do you really believe a Dutchman would have spent hundreds of hours building a website and a technical manual for a group that would be North-American based primarily, with North-American events only, and also happened to have a website? I don't think so.
So our internet centric focus must remain. Our drive to share knowledge via Pagoda Notes, Pagoda World is essential. Our inclusive, world-wide nature is also essential. It's part of our original charter.
That's why I argue that I encourage everyone to join a local club. For Pagoda SL Group it can never be the main goal to be an events centric group, like the 190SL group is... which is very North American and very different in nature to us.
Again, as I said, I encourage everyone to organise local events, and to invite as many Pagoda SL Group members to them. I also organised an event in the Netherlands a few years ago and invited all Pagoda owners I knew. I attended an event in the UK. Every year a number of us meet in the Technoclassica in Essen. PUB is great, and I will really enjoy going there, but Joe and Mary Alexander rightly invite everyone they expect to have an interest, not just Pagoda SL Group members.
I wholeheartedly agree with Garry, and Bullethead, and 69280sl. Dan, just don't try to make the Pagoda SL Group like the 190 SL group... they are not the same. If you don't agree with me, don't vote for me for the board!
Peter
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Comparing 190SL owners and Pagoda owners can be difficult. Attitudes can be quite different.
During the Summer of about 2002, I was driving up New York's Husdon Valley in my '71 280SL when I happened to see a fair number of 190SL's on the grounds of West Point, the military academy of the US Army not far north of New York City. I drove in and asked if I could park and look at the cars.
Dan Caron was one of the organizers and invited me to park (slightly away from the 190's, of course) and look around. This was all before this website and this Pagoda Group was formed.
I admired the enthusiasm, the energy, the dedication of the 190 SL owners. I approached another organizer, Jim Villers (who was one of those rare 190SL owners who also owned a Pagoda.)
I said, "Jim, I'd like to see something like this for Pagoda owners." Jim suggested that the 190 SL was a collector car whose prime purpose was to attend events like West Point. Pagodas are different, they are cars that can be driven everyday and some owners are less interested in car shows. He said that trying to organize a group of Pagoda owners would be like "herding cats" (his exact words.)
Well, not too long after, due primarily due to the Herculean effort of our President Cees, the cats were finally herded and this Group was born.
In a small way we tried to duplicate the 190 SL event with our own gathering at West Point in 2004. Some of you were there and had a wonderfual day with about 20 Pagodas. We did not have the formal evening dinner or the other events of the several day 190SL meeting but we did enjoy lunch and a drive along the Hudson to Cold Spring...and we did not have a car that drove across country to attend the event...there were several 190 owners who drove very long distances to attend the 190 event.
Each Mercedes car model and its owners have their own 'hot buttons", some technical and others more nostaligic and historic.
I enjoy this Group because it is a mix. We have threads here about the arcane route of a wire from one mystery place to another and also threads about the number of Beige cars. I think we should keep it that way and let let each take from the buffet of offerings whatever he/she enjoys.
Richard M, NYC
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There is no local group here, that I'm aware of.
Milwaukee, Wi.
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You know, I'm not even sure what to say or that I should even say anything.
I will say this though. You people don't know the 190SL Group. I'm not sure what you think is going on over there or how it's run but it's fairly clear that you should take the time to find out. They've had people rebuild their engine right at convention so they certainly do cater to the tech side. In fact, that's why all these specialy clubs exsist and one of the rerasons they're around in the first place.
They know that their wives and kids would like to go to convention too. You can see other parts of the world and who better to show you around than the host who lives in that area. And, they also travel to other counties with their cars. The club doesn't decide where to have conventions - that's up to the hosts.
The 190SL Group has about 800 members at 35.00 bucks each and they have somewhere around $100,000.00 in the bank. They have their own books, tech manual and a host of other things. I'm not sure why Jim doesn't tell you more about this stuff since he runs the book store over there. They have a national convention that moves from place to place every year and it's also been to another country. They have a newsletter that comes out quarterly. They have official status as a MB club from MB. I think it's just under 25 years as an organisation. I say that's pretty good value for 35 bucks.....
But it wasn't always this way. There was a time, a few years ago, that the membership was about equal to today. A series of events ( that I don't fully understand ) led the club to near ruin. The new board put it back together and made it the most sucessfull MB club in north america - all done in about 10 years. It's the club others wish they could be - except for here it seems......
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I know the 190 SL club, I'm a regional VP, Midwest, and board member. Just a couple of facts to straighten from above. Jim Villers runs the club store that also sells the club books and he is a club board member. http://www.190slgroup.com/store/shop/shop/default.asp The newsletter is bimonthly. There are both national conventions and now, national tech sessions (I hosted 2008). http://www.190slgroup.com/pic_stry/pic_stry.htm I'm not aware that the club convention was in another country, but do know that club members joined a convention hosted in another country.
I think your points are well taken Dan, that the outline of the mission of the 190 SL club is very much like that of the Pagoda club, after all, it is the INTERNATIONAL 190 SL group. The execution of that mission is what you are trying to highlight and the success that the club has had in merging diverse interests into a cohesive set of planned events. This is not to say that the 190 SL club is without fault and cannot benefit from fresh ideas, as most all clubs can.
Joe Alexander is familiar with the 190 SL Group and conventions. In fact, in Lexington, when all the gearheads were puzzled over a vexing issue on a club member's car, it was Joe, when all were scratching their heads and provided him the opening, who seized the moment and did a little old school magic to resolve the issue. And, as he slipped away into the sunset there were those who asked, "who is that man?"
I can say with fair certainty that in this club the conviction for club sanctioned and organized events, other than PUB, is weak. Show me some enthusiasm here in the Midwest and I'll put together a social, tech event at Black Forest that all attendees will remember. There is no reason that under the umbrella of the Pagoda SL Group that American, German, Italian, Dutch, English, whatever can't be organized, open to ALL members, of course, yet more conveniently attended by those closer to the event host. Yes, the frequency and size of events will probably correlate to size of where the membership lives, but hey, that's life. We can always enjoy the pictures and descriptions of the event on this website.
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I get a feeling that we're not all listening to each other.
I think that this group was set-up with international membership, and with a focus on the use of internet in mind.
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So our internet centric focus must remain. Our drive to share knowledge via Pagoda Notes, Pagoda World is essential. Our inclusive, world-wide nature is also essential. It's part of our original charter.
Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think anyone is suggesting we limit any of the following:
- the international nature of the group.
- the charter of the group.
- the free exchange of ideas and knowledge through the internet.
- the existing level of social interaction within the group through the internet.
To give you a concrete example: do you really believe a Dutchman would have spent hundreds of hours building a website and a technical manual for a group that would be North-American based primarily, with North-American events only, and also happened to have a website? I don't think so.
I think everyone here is a very aware of and grateful for all the hard work you've put into the club website. Again, as far as I am aware, no one is trying to make this club a "North American" one.
That's why I argue that I encourage everyone to join a local club. For Pagoda SL Group it can never be the main goal to be an events centric group, like the 190SL group is... which is very North American and very different in nature to us.
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I wholeheartedly agree with Garry, and Bullethead, and 69280sl. Dan, just don't try to make the Pagoda SL Group like the 190 SL group... they are not the same. If you don't agree with me, don't vote for me for the board!
No one here has suggested we become "events centric". I don't believe the 190sl group is "events centric" (but not being a member of that group, I think others are in a better position to make that determination). Last I checked, the 190sl group is also an international group. However, no one here is suggesting we become like the 190sl group.
I think there are a number of us who would just like to see more events organized and sponsored by the club, but that is a far cry from an "events centric" club. We are still an international club of pagoda enthusiasts bringing together our passion for the car, and freely exchanging our knowledge through the club website.
Sure, we could strive to make it more of a social, meet one another in person group, with frequent events. That might seem to make the group more inclusive, but I actually think it would make a lot of members feel less part of the group: those unable to attend these events.
I disagree with that. I'm a paying member of MBCA, and I have no problem when there is some event I'm unable to attend due to logistics. I just simply wait for the right one at the right time in the right place. I don't think it's right for me to put my foot down and say that no one else should meet [under the aegis of the club] unless I can also join in the fun. I believe in live and let live. I support the 113 club because I derive enjoyment from participation and would like to see the club grow and prosper. Along the way, I hope to participate in as many forum threads as possible, attend as many events as possible, but I will not harbor any resentment for not being able to do so.
Further into the Home page it states
QUOTE
"The purpose of the Pagoda SL Group is to facilitate the sharing of information and to encourage communication among enthusiasts related to the Mercedes W113 cars. The Club seeks to assist with the care, repair, restoration, collection, and preservation of these classic cars." It also states that the group helps facilitate the "in-person events related to W113 Pagoda cars including car shows, technical sessions, track events, and others for W113 cars"
Its an International Group but most people who are members of this group, if lucky enough to own a Pagoda (or 2) are also members of local car clubs specifically designed for gathering and rallying, That is not the primary intent of this group.
Lately, everyone seems to like quoting sections of our charter. It's like a Rorschach test! We all see what we want to see. When I read that quote above, I think I see a little passage saying that the group helps facilitate "in-person events related to W113 Pagoda cars including car shows, technical sessions, track events, and others for W113 cars". This to me sounds like a great way to enhance the membership and broaden participation from the group. Again, as far as I can tell, no one here is advocating changing the club to an "events centric" one, or making "gathering and rallying" the primary intent.
However, what is wrong with occasionally also gathering and having a car show with only pagodas participating? (I said "only pagodas", not "only pagoda owners"; not trying to exclude anyone). For example, when my restoration in complete, I wouldn't mind putting up my pagoda to see how [poorly] it competes with Michael Salemi's 280sl, or John's (thelews) 250sl. If I want to go see how it competes with a BMW 2002, a Karmann Ghia or a '65 Mustang, by all means I'll enter some local competition. But that's not as valuable. Local judges aren't that savvy about our cars. But if our club is doing something like this on a semi-regular basis, and judged by our deep pool of pagoda talent, I get to compete with other pagodas (and man, would that be a cut-throat competition). The points [deduction] sheet from something like that would be far more instructive than some backwoods judging sheet where they don't have a clue about our cars. This info would be far more information than I could gather at an informal meeting. Can you imagine how quickly our pagodas would improve? (if we chose to compete, of course). That, to me, is also a really good way to enhance appreciation for and knowledge of these cars.
But when you get back to the stated purpose of the Group, sharing information and encouraging communication among enthusiasts for the W113, together with in-person events, then this forum already not only achieves but far exceeds its purpose 100%.
Again, I don't see anything in the "stated purpose of the group" that conflicts with or is hampered by adding an official event.
It sounds to me that Dan, John, and I are all in general agreement: we all wish for a main event, sanctioned and sponsored by the club. However, John is also making the very astute observation that perhaps the typical Pagoda owner is not yet ready or motivated enough to make these events happen. This is where I think the support of the club is needed. Once we gain enough momentum, these things will happen. If it doesn't happen, c'est la vie. It's not the end of the world. We can always try harder next time.
I enjoy this Group because it is a mix. We have threads here about the arcane route of a wire from one mystery place to another and also threads about the number of Beige cars. I think we should keep it that way and let let each take from the buffet of offerings whatever he/she enjoys.
Richard sums it up well. I just think we should add some more items to the buffet menu. The tent will only get larger.
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Ok, I think we're all violently agreeing... it's just that we have different views on how it would make members feel and if we can herd this group of cats... And yes, the 190SL group calls itself International, but that does not make it international. We have 1/3rd of our paying membership outside of North America.
Let's put it to the test. I think we have two volunteers (Waqas and Dan) who are keen to organise an event in 2010. My recommendation: choose a location in North America (like the 190SL group did with Yellowstone) that has sufficient independent appeal to attract foreign visitors. Find a local member who knows the region to supprt your efforts. And then build the event!
In addition to a concours, I'd like to see a TSD (time-speed-distance) rally or other classic navigation rally... I'm willing to be a navigator for anyone! Involve a local club to create one in the area and allow other classic cars in the region to participate.
I can't promise to bring my car across, but I'll bring my black tie for the convention gala night!
Peter
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The 190SL Group sent about 9 cars to Itally last year ( I think ) and some members went to OZ for a big ralley there. I think part of that trip included a boat ride to Tasmainia.
The group came to Canada about 10 years ago and had their convention at Niagara on the Lake which is not far from the falls. Anybody would like going there.....
Waqas pretty much sums it up. I never said we should be the 190SL Group and only used them as an example of what good planning can bring. Believe me, they're international and they're definately gear heads. Probably worse than this crowd or at least just the same.
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I haven't read much of this thread but I suggest the club to find other ways to generate more revenues such as more ads or increase the membership dues. With an increase in revenues, the club could focus (and maybe hire personnel) to beef up the newsletters, website content and/or a getting a published Pagoda technical book. I'm a member of various clubs such as the BMW Motorcycle Owners of America, MBCA, 190SL Group, to name a few. They seem to have more "stuff" (club magazines with alot of content, events, etc).
I know that may be asking too much.
Cheers,
Mike
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Keep the suggestions coming!
Personally, I would prefer we not increase the dues. I'd rather that we find ways to increase the value of club membership, in order to increase the number of paid subscribers.
This is not necessarily a chicken-and-egg problem. We, as volunteers, are in the key position to bootstrap the process.
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In my opinion the club's finances allow it to run as we do at the moment very comfortably. We do not need more income. However, if we were to hire someone to produce newsletters etc we would suddenly need a lot more income... that would mean more members, higher fees etc. I doubt it would work.
What we do notice is that this club has run with essentially the same (small) set of people doing all the tasks. These volunteers are -- justifiably -- not always able to devote as much time as we would like. So new volunteers are needed.
After the recently completed elections we have three new, enthusiastic, competent and interested people on the board. However, they can't do it all by themselves. They need help. If you are able to help (write articles for Pagoda World or Notes, work on bits of the Technical Manual, help arrange events) then please step forward and let us know.
Just as an aside on the Technical Manual... despite promises of over 20 people to contribute and help out, in reality only 4 or 5 people contribute regularly to the Technical Manual. The Wiki has been designed in such a way that once the content is in a reasonably good shape (have a look and tell me if you think it is getting there... in sections it is, but there are still some large gaps) we can produce a print copy without any further editing being required.
Money is not the issue, hired help is not the solution: it needs us -- the enthusiasts who know these cars -- to put the information in the Tech Manual. Funnily, most of the information is already available... it's in the forums. It needs collecting, editing, removal of forum fluff, and insertion into the Tech Manual... you don't even need to be an expert on the topic to be able to do this, you just need to be handy with information, the forum, and an editor. So why do so few people come forward to help out?
Peter
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This website and group is THE Pagoda resource for me, great technical help, nice people and interesting topics. However, I also really enjoy meeting up with other Pagoda owners, comparing cars and going for drives. So for the last 5 years I have maintained an email list of owners here in northern California. I found people in these forums, at MBCA events, car shows, etc. I know Richard Madison has one for New York owners too.
We've had a few events and joined in on many of the First Sunday Drives sponsored by MBCA every month. What I have found is that, unlike yours truly, many of them don't check this site all that often :o and may not ever venture into the Events forum. But people do tend to respond to email and we've had some pretty good turnouts (12) for some of the events. I also keep a list of local mechanics and other resources for our cars that people have recommended both to help each other and to help keep those guys in business.
I learned the hard way that trying to get everyone to agree on a date or location for an event is hopeless. But if 2 or 3 guys can come up with an idea and invite all the others, it works pretty well. I usually try to send out an email well in advance and then a few reminders as we get closer to the date. It takes some effort, but it is worth it. Give it a try!
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Just came across this rather old thread, but if wanted, I would be more than happy to establish a Facebook-page/group for our community. This should in no way replace any of the functions of the website, but merely give highlights to important updates such as new additions to the tech. manual, events etc. Besides this, it could also be a nice opportunity recruit new members and to put faces on all the existing names here - hence the name Facebook...
What do you guys think?
Ulf
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Go for it - can't do any harm can it?
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It exists already: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Mercedes-SL-Pagoda/29516717887
However we don't own it, so it's hard to link it permanently to our site!
We can occasionally post a link to our site on the wall though
Peter
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I'm a member of that one already and have actually posted the link to this forum on the wall. But having our own page/group would be a nice way to put faces on some of the names here. I'm not sure how popular Facebook is around the world, but here in Denmark almost half the population is on (2,5 million out of 5,5 million). I would primarily regard is a way to recruit new members, sharing photos and for "light conversation"
It will only take me about an hour or two, and I'll post the link here when done
???
Ulf
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I like your idea.
Jim