Author Topic: Ontario outside barn find, what do you think?  (Read 12683 times)

MBhundertdreizehn

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Ontario outside barn find, what do you think?
« on: May 24, 2008, 11:49:50 »
Hallo aus Deutschland to all of you MB enthusiast, this is my first post on this forum and I must say that I really adore this forum, because you can find a lot of good posts.  :|

I`m looking for a 280SL project, US version in USA and Canada and few days back I found one that looks really nice for restoration, aber it`s not a sunday project. I was looking for project now for quiet a long time and I found it on web.


This car is located in London Ontario in Canada and I have allready send one Mercedes man to take a look and he gave me his opinion. The car is far away from me, but I`m prepared for shipping.

This car is really rusty, especially in floorpans and rocker panels, but I still thinks it could be saved from destruction. The major problem is that engine head was taken off about 10 years back and not given back, so I`m sure that rust came in valves.

But I really like the price of 6500$ canadians, so I would like to get some your opinions about that car, because that is really my first project, but I`m prepared for it. I know that you knows a lot more about Pagodas, so any opinion would be great.

The car is not a beauty, but it`s complete, either parts are all around the garage and in the trunk.

What do you think, it is worth that money?????? Here are few pictures of the car:
 :D








The man that inspected the car said to me that I will need to replace floorpans and rocker panels, so does maybe anyone knows that someone HAS THEM FOR SALE???? :oops:







When I was taking a look where the parts are cheaper I realized that they are cheaper in USA, but this car is in Canada, so does anyone knows for some shops with parts in Canada? Or is maybe someone from Canada that has some parts for sell?






Here are also a few pictures of the interiour, it looks quiet decent what do you think?




Does anyone knows if it`s possible to ship the Canadian car from USA ports to Bremenhaven in Germany, or do you think I will need to send the car from Canadian port, because of the custom duties?

If someone wil have time for some opinions please give them, because I really don`t know anyone that would know so much about Pagoden like you overhere.

 Thanks again from Deutschland!

Primoz






 :|

Paddy_Crow

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Re: Ontario outside barn find, what do you think?
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2008, 12:03:36 »
My opinion: Run away. Don't walk, run. There is probably very little sheet metal that's any good and you'll spend a lot more making this one sound than you'd spend on a good example. Keep looking...

seattle_Jerry

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Re: Ontario outside barn find, what do you think?
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2008, 13:16:39 »
I agree. Spending at least another $6000 will save you more in the long run. You will nickel and dime yourself up to that in no time.
Find a much less rusty example. Someone on here has a car with a bad transmission he was thinking of selling. Make him an offer.

paulr

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Re: Ontario outside barn find, what do you think?
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2008, 13:38:35 »
I'm saying nothing other than that I need a good ashtray lid............

Longtooth

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Re: Ontario outside barn find, what do you think?
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2008, 00:14:06 »
MB113 -- In US you'ed spend over $5k just for the engine work (including replacing the non-existant head)... probably more in Germany.

If there were no rust at all... just for talking purposes... you'ed have to spend upwards of $10k for interior restoration materials & labor including rechrome & new softtop (not frame) for exterior (in US).  

Add the rust issues and you're talking about $10k in body work and panels purchases alone, imo.  Then paint... another $6k to $10k.

Add it up... if this were in US for restoration it would cost over $25k+ minimum to restore... add the purchase price and shipping/customs and you're already talking over $30k-$35k.  This assumes you don't need to find/purchase any major parts other than body panels.

If the head is missing, is the transmission still in it?, rear end?

My opinion... if you're going to spend upwards of $30k - $35k on a pagoda there are far better ones available for a lot less restoration work, uncertainty about what needs replacement.  Of course I note that this one's got a standard tranny (stick at least).

Paddy_Crow

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Re: Ontario outside barn find, what do you think?
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2008, 07:37:35 »
A friend of mine gave me a good piece of advice when I was looking. Sometimes, the most expensive old Mercedes is the cheapest old Mercedes...

thelews

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Re: Ontario outside barn find, what do you think?
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2008, 08:39:17 »
I have three classics.  One, a very original 250 SL that was meticulously cared for and maintained by a club member.  I consider it the prize of the three (driven 300 miles in the last week up to 90mph, she sure sings a nice tune!).  Two, a Porsche 356, much originality, engine rebuild and refurbishing of paint, carpet, headliner.  Great looking and driving car that I bought that way and spent my time sorting out and attending to details (Drove 80 miles on Fri).  Finally, my first step into the classic car arena.  A full blown nut and bolt, ground up restoration of a 190 SL to show standards with a renowned restorer.  In terms of enjoyment of the vehicles and experience of procurement and ownership the 190 SL is dead last.  Four times the cost of the 250 SL (Hardly driven due to repairs and concern of damage.  I have met some great people in the 190 SL club and consider that the best part of the experience).  Bottom line for me, buy the best level classic you can afford and save the restoration for one off or extremely rare examples that are all but unavailable in a presentable state.  The Pagoda is not in that class and you have many fine examples to choose from other than this one.  JMHO, YMMV





« Last Edit: May 25, 2008, 08:51:08 by thelews »
Enjoy some pictures at this link:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8292359@N06/sets/72157603240571101/show/

John - Wisconsin
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual #1543
1961 190 SL 23K miles
1964 Porsche 356
1970 Porsche 911E
1991 BMW 318is
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1971 Alfa Romeo GTV 1750

waqas

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Re: Ontario outside barn find, what do you think?
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2008, 10:58:19 »
quote:
Originally posted by Paddy_Crow

My opinion: Run away. Don't walk, run. There is probably very little sheet metal that's any good and you'll spend a lot more making this one sound than you'd spend on a good example. Keep looking...



I'd have to agree completely with Paddy's opinion. Heed every word of it...
Waqas (Wa-kaas) in Austin, Texas

Benz Dr.

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Re: Ontario outside barn find, what do you think?
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2008, 15:58:42 »
You have to ship a Canadian car from Canada. It can't be shipped from the US unless it's an American titled car.

Funny thing is I was just in London Ont. over the weekend. I go there at least twice once a month and have quite a few cutomers in that city since it's only 90 miles from me.

I would suggest that the interested party looking at this car contact me. I'll be going back to London this coming week and might be able to look at this car if I have time.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2008, 22:42:44 by Benz Dr. »
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
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Mark280SL

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Re: Ontario outside barn find, what do you think?
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2008, 20:25:00 »
Others have said this below but I'll add to it and say you would be much better off looking for a better car.  

I can tell you from experience you will spend/waste much time looking for parts, pay high prices, and will very likely never be able to fix a car like that properly. Spend the money up front and buy a car in good shape. If you buy that car you will spend a lot of money, waste a lot of time and then at some point in the future end up selling it at a big to very big loss and say to yourself why didn't I listen to those guys at the Pagoda forum!!!
« Last Edit: May 25, 2008, 20:42:19 by Mark280SL »
Mark

Douglas

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Re: Ontario outside barn find, what do you think?
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2008, 21:15:22 »
While it's irrefutable that it makes financial sense to buy a better Pagoda, I'm going to be the lone whacko who says I hope people with the resources, patience and inclination will continue to restore basketcases like this. Call me crazy but there's a side to me that just hates to see one more Pagoda vanish forever. (Then again, I feel the same way about those other money pits—old houses.) True, you won't get your money back, but you will be saving a Pagoda and you may find the restoration process satisfying on some level. There are plenty of people in this forum who restored cars in this condition—or worse—knowing full well they'd lose money. Surely not all of them regret it.

psmith

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Re: Ontario outside barn find, what do you think?
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2008, 23:30:20 »
You can get all the body parts from here  http://www.kkmfg.com/ I have to agree with the last wacko and hope that someone can get it back on the road.  Just make sure you know what you are getting into...

rwmastel

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Re: Ontario outside barn find, what do you think?
« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2008, 08:01:37 »
quote:
Originally posted by thelews

Bottom line for me, buy the best level classic you can afford and save the restoration for one off or extremely rare examples that are all but unavailable in a presentable state.  The Pagoda is not in that class and you have many fine examples to choose from other than this one.
Well, we can think of it two ways:
1) Send this to the junk yard crusher and we'll be one car closer to making our nice Pagodas "extremely rare".
2) Save this Pagoda, at great cost, and create one more of the "fine examples" which will be worth much more 40 years from now when Pagodas really are "extremely rare".
Rodd

Did you search the forum before asking?
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Cees Klumper

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Re: Ontario outside barn find, what do you think?
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2008, 15:57:42 »
Most of us have lost a LOT of money on ... having bought new or near-new cars, used them for a couple of years then took the inevitable depreciation hit. So we're used to cars costing (significant) money.

So that is yet another argument to say: somebody save this Pagoda!
Cees Klumper
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thelews

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Re: Ontario outside barn find, what do you think?
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2008, 16:57:30 »
quote:
Originally posted by cees klumper

Most of us have lost a LOT of money on ... having bought new or near-new cars, used them for a couple of years then took the inevitable depreciation hit. So we're used to cars costing (significant) money.

So that is yet another argument to say: somebody save this Pagoda!



While I understand your point, one mistake doesn't justify another.  For the record, my daily drivers are all used.  Just picked up a 2000 VW Beetle for my daughter w/47k miles for $6500 from a private party.  BTW, I don't know if this car will ever rust out, it's almost all plastic!







Enjoy some pictures at this link:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/8292359@N06/sets/72157603240571101/show/

John - Wisconsin
1967 Early 250 SL Red/Caviar, Manual #1543
1961 190 SL 23K miles
1964 Porsche 356
1970 Porsche 911E
1991 BMW 318is
1966 Jaguar XKE
1971 Alfa Romeo GTV 1750

Longtooth

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Re: Ontario outside barn find, what do you think?
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2008, 01:41:41 »
Douglas -- if you carry that logic (re: "Call me crazy but there's a side to me that just hates to see one more Pagoda vanish forever.") to it's end, then nearly all the pagoda's ever built would still be out there and being driven and in reasonable condition.  If that were the case then spare parts for them wouldn't be rare either... and in a nut-shell, they would have much lower value than they currently have... so much lower in fact that the economics to keep them in reasonable mechanical and cosmetic condition would force fewer owners to spend the $$ to do so... hence letting them rot in some barn or spare lot, or selling them for parts at the local dismantler/junk-yard.

So... at the core of nostalgia for cars (whatever car, or house, for that matter) is an economic decision...  the greater the cost to satisfy the nostalgic desire, the fewer the number of people with the means to do so.  Given the means, the nostaligic buyer will still (normally) seek the best condition car for the outlay, since to do otherwise is just throwing away some of the means to improve upon the condition.

Granted, there are those that do so... a fool and his money are soon parted... there's a sucker born every second, ... and similar... but those are the abnormal condition.  ... not necessarily the exception, mind you, but non-normal.  I recall the 90's sudden craze for the 60's Mustangs.. prices skyed almost overnight... and kept rising.  More Mustangs were "restored" than you can shake a stick at... spare parts and "OEM" manufactured parts that were previously unavailable appeared almost overnight at reasonable prices.  A friend of mine at work had been driving his Boss Mustang since he'd originally purchased it.. it needed paint, upholstery, various other odds/ends, but he'ed kept the mechanics in reliable driving condition as his "work cummunter" ... it was more economic for him to keep it that way than buying some other used car (with some "muscle" to replace it)... and the used car prices for his car prior to the sudden craze were not high enough to find a replacement commuter with "muscle" (or the known & trusted mechanical reliability).  When the craze hit he watched the prices rising... he eventually had unsolicited offers for it, and took it to a Mustang "show" event one Sunday... just to see if he would get some "unreasonably high" offers.  He sold it that Sunday "as is" for $15k.  A year earlier he couldn't have gotten $2k for it!.

Point is only that sometimes a sudden craze occurs, usually short-lived (on the order of 5 years or even less) when demand accelerates abnormally... and then the enterprising among us find all those old examples that can be put back together (or put a shiny coat of paint and some new uphostery and a underbody steam-cleaning) and turn it for a profit.  Supply increases, prices stabilize, and the craze / fad passes and demand wanes once again, prices fall, and the least worthy examples end up back in the junk-yard or under the crusher.

Seems to me that if a person wants to spend $30-$35k or more on a 280SL 4-speed they'ed get more value for their time/money and enjoyment by buying one that's already closer in real value to the $30-$35k limit than one further from it.  If they're seeking a hobby to restore a car of some vintage/type.... and know what they're getting into as a hobby, but without all the tools and equipment necessary to make the hobby effectual, then the hobby is the desire, and the car's just a means to effect the hobby.. it still costs parts, tools, equipment, and vended labor from specialists here and there... i.e. sufficient economic means and perseverence are the pre-requisites... skills can be learned (by trial/ error or from some other professional or experienced body).  

The single biggest failing for the hobby seeker who wants to restore some vehicle or another is a lack of knowledge of the total costs required, therefore getting into it before realizing they don't have the means... the 2nd biggest failing is lack of time or perseverence over time.

So... I think the question on the car in the picture is whether anybody that hasn't personally inspected the car in detail, and who isn't already well equipped and experienced enough to recognize the actual costs and efforts involved in restoring it can make a rational assessment.  I think not.  As a restoration project it's a minimum of $30k - $35k (at best, imo)... if a well done (body-off) restoration, including all mechanicals, the costs would approach $40-$45k, and value would be upwards of $50k - $65k (4-speed, numbers matching, no rust remaining).  In other words, the real value of the labor and time used in restoration is on the order of $10k - $15k.  Assuming and considering spare time is of no other value, "earning" the equivalent of a month or two's salery over the course of the year or two (or 5?) it would take in dedicated spare time effort for a body-off restoration (a-la bpBossels restoration effort) is not a minor undertaking... somewhere in the range of 1/12th to 1/24th a years salery (or less if in the upper income brackets, or if it takes more time than 1-2 years of spare time).  As always, the question ultimately answered is whether that is enough incentive to continue the effort after the newness of the experience wears off, and whether there are other liesure or spare time pursuits with greater incentives or demands(wive's, children, or significant other's demands on time/effort for just one example).  It could easily be argued that the expenditure of the spare time on restoration could be better spent to far greater economic and ultimate life advantage (in 10's of multiples of the $10k-$15k) by expending it at one's saleried place of employment and this would especially be the case for the younger ones who're starting or in mid-career... assuming one likes their job, that is... and isn't just an 9-5 clock-watcher.

Sorry for the length of this, but the issue you raise is not without merit for discussion and dissection.  It is a common underlying theme on this forum. If one doesn't have the means and perseverence, then the pursuit of restoration and especially of a near basket-case is that of a fool.... since they'll pour significant money into the effort without being able to carry it thru... ending up with something of probably no greater value (and possibly even less) than they started with, but after a loss of time and money expended to no satisfying ends.

hill

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Re: Ontario outside barn find, what do you think?
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2008, 13:39:32 »
That car should succumb to natural causes, so that others may live.

Benz Dr.

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Re: Ontario outside barn find, what do you think?
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2008, 23:06:48 »
It seems there's something important about this car that's been missed.
 Where is the person who originally posted about the car with all the pictures? There's been lots of advice both for and against buying such a project including pictures of other cars and recent buys, but nothing from the guy in Germany.
 
Maybe it's already sold?
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

Shvegel

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Re: Ontario outside barn find, what do you think?
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2008, 02:51:17 »
I am in the process of what started as "Floor pans and rocker panels" 16,000USD and counting. Fenders front and rear, front inner structure complete and trunk floor.

MBhundertdreizehn

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Re: Ontario outside barn find, what do you think?
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2008, 11:59:05 »
Sorry for delay. At first of all thank you a lods for all you opinions, answers and everything and I must say I really appreciate all your help and so on.
I read all of your posts and on the end I also decided not to buy this car, because it simply needs to much work, time and money of course.
I went on Mercedes parts online markets and fast saw how pricy are diese parts, just rocker panels and floorpans...

Yes I decided not to buy this car, but to find one another that will requier some less work and would be allready a driver, because  engine work is also VERY pricy.

And yes I have found actually two 230SL,the first one is white and the other is red one, both looks nice, complete and they are in driving condition. I wonder if some of you will be able also some opinions on those two ones, it is also much better, because they are located near Boston and the second near New York.

I will send one more post with those two in general discussion and I would be very grateful for some help and opinions.

Thanks,

Primoz