Pagoda SL Group
W113 Pagoda SL Group => Wanted To Buy => Topic started by: MikeSimon on August 22, 2018, 19:14:10
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During the process of taking the cylinder head off my 280SL (late VIN number) and moving it to a different location in the shop, some parts of the cam chain tensioner went missing. I don't even know what actually is missing, so I would like to get a complete unit. I would assume, they are all the same for M130s, maybe even for the earlier L6 versions. I do have the bolt, spring and housing...that's all.
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Mike, take a look there:
https://www.sl113.org/wiki/Engine/TimingChain
It is all on this website. Proper installation with priming and pre-tensioning as well.
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Thank you Pawel, I saw that! Was not sure what is still there and what is not. Somehow I messed up by taking the bolt and spring out of the tensioner housing and leaving all the rest in there. When the head was moved, some of the stuff went for a walk. You learn the hard way.
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Those little parts are known as HOO - DAHS. I've found them behind things like my tool box years after I lost them. Best to wrap a rag around the part before you take it apart. Syncro assemblies come to mind.
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Another view on the potential tensioner hoo-dahs.
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Another view on the potential tensioner hoo-dahs.
I am not in the shop right now, but it seems mine does not have items No 152/158 shown in the picture??
Instead, I am missing the bolt that holds the p/s reservoir and has some function in the chain drive arrangement.
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This bolt is important!!! It has specially machined tip. Prevents chain from skipping sprocket's teeth.
Important: for cars with power steering it is longer, without power steering it is shorter (as it also holds ps fluid reservoir bracket).
I posted part numbers from MB for both lengths some time ago. Will try to find it, but no time now....
On 152 and 158 - not sure how come you may not have it....
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Here it is:
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=27136.msg194539#msg194539
For cars with ps: A 110 052 01 71
For cars without ps: A 6150520171
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Pawel: That was a misunderstanding. I do have that bolt. I tried to say I am missing it on your parts diagram
Update on the tensioner. It seems some times the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing. The inner parts of the tensioner did not disappear. Somehow they were placed in the bin with the other parts, sprockets, etc. The only part that is missing is the small ball, item No. 175 Hopefully I can replace it with a standard steel ball from something else, e.g. old bearing.
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ok. Good you have, well, most of the stuff.
You were missing it from the diagram because - where would you expect to see a bolt that holds the timing chain? On the timing picture? You must have just come from the Moon! It is on the air compressor picture, certainly.
Jokes aside: regular screw is on the other Timing pictogram, the one that is needed with power steering is under Air Compressor group, but it is not on the picture, you have to highlight the bracket (90), then it is easier to find in the parts list.
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So, before I start cutting up old bearings and visit a local bearing shop to see if I can purchase individual steel balls - does anybody know a place to source the steel ball from? Or does anybody have one for sale?
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Mike just pm me your mailing address. I have a bucket full off old used tensioners. Most likely Ted Godfried has some laying around also. He is in the Cleveland area (closer to you).
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Other option (also in Cleveland area) . They have metric, we just need to measure one.
https://www.mcmaster.com/#steel-balls/=1ebj6xd Just click on "steel"
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I’ll check my attic tomorrow. Slim chance I might have one.
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I didn’t have a spare one but I pulled mine apart. The ball is 5mm. I would bet your local bicycle shop will have one.
Curiously, in a box of parts I found the bracket and chain guide you said you didn’t have(part#152) The box of parts was from an M130 of your era(68-69). The guide is shot but the bracket is your’s if you need it.
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I didn’t have a spare one but I pulled mine apart. The ball is 5mm. I would bet your local bicycle shop will have one.
Curiously, in a box of parts I found the bracket and chain guide you said you didn’t have(part#152) The box of parts was from an M130 of your era(68-69). The guide is shot but the bracket is your’s if you need it.
I did check and I indeed have the guide and bracket. Thanks!
Are you going to be at the Stan Hywet show on September 9?
Usually see a couple of W113s there.
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Unfortunately no. I work on a ship in the odd months.
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O.K., I was able to source a complete replacement tensioner and also a handful of 5mm balls to repair the one I have. All set.
However, there is the "moot" question:
As I don't know whether I lost the ball or whether it was not in the tensioner before I tool it apart - what would have happened if the ball was not in there. Would the tensioner have worked? Just curious.
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No. No balls no.........well, you know what I mean. ;)
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The ball acts as a check valve to allow oil into the cylinder and keep it there. Unlike most modern cars the oil feed isn't under pressure it is simply sucked in fron the chain galley. Without the ball the tensioner would be free to compress so the chain would most likely rattle if new or skip off if stretched.
I thimk someone mentioned it before but it is very important that you bleed the air out of the tensioner before you start the car. Fill the reservoir in the chain galley of the head on the passenger side and work the tensioner gear back against the spring on the tensioner until it firms up and resists moving.
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OK! I hope I will remember this when I get to that point (in about 3 months ::)
This brings me to an issue: I am really disappointed with the BBB as far as good solid info for the six cylinder motors is concerned. There is hardly anything in there except specs. No specific instructions, for example, on how to remove and install the head. I have to work with other manuals and the excellent advice I am getting here on this site.
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I am really disappointed with the BBB as far as good solid info for the six cylinder motors is concerned.
This all depends on which publication of the BBB you are referencing. Since the M127-129 existed before 1968, a majority of the info on the 6 cylinder motors is in the August 1959- edition.
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That may very well be the reason. I have the edition covering 108, 109, 111 and 113 manufactured from 1968 to 1973 both in a German and in an English version. Guess I need to find an earlier issue
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Whenever I do a long slow project I write notes directly on the windshield with a sharpie. Oil, coolant etc and as I do them I cross them off. Of course now when I am doing the bigest slowest project ever I don't have a windshield.
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The way things are going...I would need a larger windshield...
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I put my original cam chain tensioner back together, and when I compare it to the replacement one I bought, I find the force required to compress it is much higher in my original tensioner than for that replacement one. Were there different spring rates? I did not measure the spring length and probably should do that and compare. Which one would you use?
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I would use the one that came with the car as it has worked for the life of the car. I don't know the exact history of our tensioners but I assume there are many variants with single and double chains and even perhaps V8 versions (?). Sometimes when fashioning a replacement in order to cover the entire range things like springs will be uprated to cover the entire range. NEW means Never Ever Worked.
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Not to refer to what Shvegel wrote, although it supports it, but just as a caution, although you probably know this already: it is not this spring, really, that provides tension to the chain. That is why it is so important to prime the tensioner and pump it initially by hand (or rather by a large screwdriver) before you finish the assembly.
The spring, I think, is more like a return spring to keep sprocket on/in the chain, allowing the pumping action of sprocket+lever to take place all the time the chain is moving. That is at least how I understand it.
Just read about it a lot when did my timing last winter (shaft, chain, sprocket, rockers, tappets), fellow Members explained it to me and I followed the advise.
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Yes, the spring is there to supply preload to the tensioner pin, arm, and sprocket when the car is not running. The piston bore of the tensioner is only a machined surface and has no seals. Without the spring, the tensioner would bleed down its oil over time.
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I understand that the hydraulic pressure is key to the proper function. I was just curious how much of a role the spring load plays to overall performance. It is a substantial difference in force required to compress the tensioner.
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This all depends on which publication of the BBB you are referencing. Since the M127-129 existed before 1968, a majority of the info on the 6 cylinder motors is in the August 1959- edition.
I was able to obtain a copy of the 1959- passenger car manual. Still, no particular info in there either about removing and installing the inline-6 cylinder head. I know, in principle it is the same procedure as for the L-4, but is there any info anywhere specifically about the 127 to 130 engine heads?
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Everything you should need is in the manual. Unfortunately they are not set up like Haynes or Chiltons manuals. The easiset way is to put post it notes bookmarks in the various sections related to the removal. Such as “job 05-1 removal of rocker arms”. Or “job 05-15 removal of twin roller chain”. Then you can easily flip to the sections during removal.