Passenger outside rear view mirror

[Ed Riefstahl]

Greetings Pagoda friends,

For quite a while now I've been contemplating a passenger side rear view mirror for both my 230SL and my 280S. I have had several fusions in my neck and have very limited mobility. Consequently I can't turn my head to look back, so it's very difficult to back up my cars.

I've owned my 230SL for 21 years and my 280S for nearly as long. Neither have a passenger side mirror, making it difficult to park my cars.

The thought of drilling holes in the door makes me cringe. However I'm increasingly nervous when backing my cars up. I see the mirrors are available to purchase. I also suppose I could install a backup camera.

Does anyone know if passenger side mirrors were a factory option? Once I drill holes, I can't go back.

Just contemplating and looking for some suggestions.

Ed Riefstahl
Erie, PA

1966 230SL (Ms Magoo)
1970 280S (Miss Daisy)
1989 300SE (Majestic)
1999 BMW Z3 5 speed
1991 BMW 318I 5 Speed
1997 Toyota Paseo Convertible - Red 5 speed (have you ever seen one?)
1997 Ford Ranger step side (Mater)
2023 Mazda CX 5

[lreppond]

Option code 506 was for the passenger side mirror. 

I know exactly what you mean about drilling holes in your car.  My car lacks this mirror as well and I’ve toyed with the idea of installing one  I’ve been reluctant for the same reason.  What has held me back is that many claim that the mirror isn’t effective due to its placement.  I’d appreciate those who have one to let the rest of us know it’s effectiveness

[BobH]

I don't have a passenger mirror, the drivers mirror isn't exactly effective, not compared to modern cars, hence why i've never considered fitting one on the passenger side

If you do fit one, best position it to suit your driving position, ignore any dimensions you may have read, every driver probably needs it in a slightly different position, and you'll need the strengthening plate on the door shell, so not a quick job

You've considered a reversing camera, these can be wired or wireless, or you could think about a dash cam that can also be used as a reversing aid?  Best of both worlds then, dash cam in case of an accident plus help when reversing

Lots on the market

[rwmastel]

Here are a few of the many search results from "passenger mirror".

Some mirror usefulness links.
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=27392
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=27834

Convex mirrors!!
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=25615
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=3344
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=202

Some mirror mounting links.
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=13072
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=26900

What I get from reading through some of these and other threads is that, for the 280 style mirror:
- It should be mounted in the same relative place as the driver's side mirror.
- It should mount with a backing plate inside the door for structural rigidity.
- It should be useful.  Maybe have someone hold it and ensure the a-pillar does not block it.
- It can (and should?) have convex glass.
- It can increase wind noise.

[BobH]

Hello Ed, don't forget on your 230SL, there may be a strengthening plate already fitted from the factory in the door shell, all doors may have had them fitted, but it may be in the incorrect place, as the gooseneck mirror won't be effective in the factory position, i think it will be too close to the pillar and needs moving further back

[TJMart]

Option code 506 was for the passenger side mirror. 

I know exactly what you mean about drilling holes in your car.  My car lacks this mirror as well and I’ve toyed with the idea of installing one  I’ve been reluctant for the same reason.  What has held me back is that many claim that the mirror isn’t effective due to its placement.  I’d appreciate those who have one to let the rest of us know it’s effectiveness

Len,
I installed my passenger side mirror over twenty years ago. IMHO I think it gives the car a more balanced look with 2 mirrors especially with the top down I installed it on the door exactly in the same place as the driver side. It is extremely effective even though the mirror surface is smaller than todays mirrors.

[lreppond]

I agree about the symmetry you get with a passenger side mirror. IMHO it just looks right.  Glad to hear that you feel it’s useful as well.  I’m beginning to be convinced!

[rwmastel]

Hello Ed, don't forget on your 230SL, there may be a strengthening plate already fitted from the factory in the door shell, all doors may have had them fitted, but it may be in the incorrect place, as the gooseneck mirror won't be effective in the factory position, i think it will be too close to the pillar and needs moving further back

Correct!  For some reason, when reading through the search results I thought I should focus on 280SL mirror issues.  Yes, Ed has a 230SL and that does require the mirror to be mounted further away from the a-pillar than the driver's mirror.  There's a thread on that, even showing what needs cut inside the door.
https://www.sl113.org/forums/index.php?topic=26900

Naj from UK (RIP) had to move his passenger mirror.  Do it right the first time! 
https://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/naj/200552124024_MirLoc03.JPG

[Hans2012]

For what it is worth, I have a passenger mirror on both of my 1971's (made the same week in January) and find them helpful.  I feel that the mirror enhances the safety of the car when driving in the big city.  I also believe that having both mirrors adds a balance to the car, especially when viewed from the front.   In my case, both came from the motherland with them installed.

Give it thought. Obviously, a personal decision.   

Cheers
John

[rwmastel]

... on both of my 1971's (made the same week in January) ...

John,

It looks like you need to update your signature from just having one 280SL.

[zak]

I took the plunge and drilled the hole and installed a passenger side mirror on my late 250 sl.
It definitely helps my right rear visibility especially with the soft top up. I feel safer with it.
I agree with the symmetry with 2 as well.

Would you lose points in a judged concours for adding the passenger mirror                                                                                                                                                                                          
I have seen some clip on type rear view mirrors too.

When I was a kid I had a used 1968 Rover 2000TC sedan - bought for $400. I added 2 bullet mirrors - one on each front fender !
I thought it looked cool ! haha.

jz

[Norm]

For what it's worth.... I mounted a "goose neck" side mirror on the passenger's side to match the driver's side.  I like the looks but as a driver's aid it is useless unless I bend down and lean over to the passenger side.

[lagolag]

I have installed the passenger mirror after reading different forums.
The reinforcement is made for RHD cars and this position is not usable for a passenger side mirror, the mirror has to be placed furtur back to give a good view and the foot has to be slightly angled. I made a reinforcement bracket in alu. I made a template for the drilling and marked the hole positions, I can admit that I have thought a lot about drilling in my car but now its done and I’m very pleased with the result. Both holes are behind the factory reinforcement. Here are some pictures

[lagolag]

Missed pictures in my post.

[DavidAPease]

Ed,

Here's another data point:

Like Tony, I installed a passenger-side mirror more than 20 years ago, and like him, I used the symmetrical location to the driver's side.  I immediately installed convex lenses in these mirrors, and have been using them to good effect for more than 2 decades.  While it's true that the mirror is a bit close to the windshield surround, with the convex lens I don't find that a particular problem, and the matching mounting spots just looks right.  If I had this to do over, I would do exactly the same.

          -David

[dirkbalter]

I also went trough the mirror installation after restauration. Assuming I need the enforcement brackets, I bought them.
My doors had them and they are unused.
Anybody needs one, let me know. 

[johnk]

I also went trough the mirror installation after restauration. Assuming I need the enforcement brackets, I bought them.
My doors had them and they are unused.
Anybody needs one, let me know.

I did the same thing Dirk. I will bring my reinforcement to Pagodafeast for anyone who is there and wants it.

[Davek1]

I have a LHD 280sl in the UK and installed the passenger side mirror as it was suicide overtaking on the motorways.
I positioned mine exactly the same position as the drivers side door and used the factory installed strengthening plate and it works perfectly. Also gives the car a more balanced look. It was one of the best things I did.

[rwmastel]

I have a LHD 280sl in the UK and installed the passenger side mirror as it was suicide overtaking on the motorways.
I positioned mine exactly the same position as the drivers side door and used the factory installed strengthening plate and it works perfectly. Also gives the car a more balanced look. It was one of the best things I did.

Can't do that with the 230SL goose neck mirror.  Needs to be further to the rear.  See my post above showing Naj's adjustment.

[DavidAPease]

Can't do that with the 230SL goose neck mirror.

Sorry, Rodd, I have to disagree.  As I said in my earlier post, both Tony and I have done that on our 230SLs, and we're both happy with it.  As I also said, the convex lenses make a big difference.

         -David

[dirkbalter]

Sorry, Rodd, I have to disagree.  As I said in my earlier post, both Tony and I have done that on our 230SLs, and we're both happy with it.  As I also said, the convex lenses make a big difference.

         -David

David,
where did you buy the lenses? I am considering these as well?

[rwmastel]

David,

Maybe it's more about seating position?  I don't know, but Naj clearly felt it important to move his back.
https://www.sl113.org/forums/uploaded/naj/200552124024_MirLoc03.JPG

[DavidAPease]

Hi, Dirk,

This is what I bought 2 of from Authentic Classics; however, they are currently out of stock:

   https://www.authenticclassics.com/Convex-Mirror-Glass-for-Mercedes-190SL-230SL-250SL-p/auth-008946.htm

I see this seller on eBay who seems to have a stock of them for a little more money:

   https://www.ebay.com/itm/143907604803

            -David

[DavidAPease]

Rodd,

That's an interesting thought.  I drive with my seat back against the parcel shelf, so far back.

If I were in a position to take some photos I would, but I can't for at least several days. 

          -David

[rwmastel]

It must be partially seat position related.  Maybe physique/size also?  What do you think of that pic of Naj's car.  He must have really wanted to move it!  Some clearly want it further back than the support plate allows, so I guess it just comes down to the individual.  Just do it right the first time!! 

[DaveB]

Sorry, Rodd, I have to disagree.  As I said in my earlier post, both Tony and I have done that on our 230SLs, and we're both happy with it.  As I also said, the convex lenses make a big difference.

Tony has a 280SL according to his signature. It is Norm who mounted his 230 passenger mirror in the equivalent position as the driver mirror, and he says it doesn’t give a good view for him. I test fitted a mirror in that location (no drilling) and had the same opinion.

[DaveB]

..but if it works for you that’s good, it’s certainly neater to have left & right symmetry and use the existing door reinforcing plate.
Does anybody know the factory placement for that option 506 in a 230SL?

[lreppond]

I had no idea that reinforcement plates were in each door for mirrors?! I would have to guess that’s where the engineers at DBAG intended the mirror to be mounted?  Unless this was done to accommodate either a LHD or RHD car?  Lots of question marks because at this point I doubt anyone knows for sure. Bottom line: it’s your car so mount the mirror where it works best for you. 

[getsmart]

Dave,

My rh mirror support plate is approx in this position inside the door, its quite long and looks like one could move the mirror forward or back...

R/Joe

PS. Left door has no support plate

..but if it works for you that’s good, it’s certainly neater to have left & right symmetry and use the existing door reinforcing plate.
Does anybody know the factory placement for that option 506 in a 230SL?

[Ed Riefstahl]

A lot of food for thought. I may actually be more on the fence now - just kidding. I hadn't thought about the possibility that I wouldn't be able to see out of the mirror if I installed it in the exact location as the left side.

I also hadn't thought about the backer plate. Sounds like I may possibly already have one inside the door. I was able to go through the mechanics over the last 11 months and during that time I have purchased a complete new interior for the car, including new door panels and visors. My wife and I did the interior, minus the door panels and visors, in 2003. However after 20 years / 65,000 miles of mostly top-down driving all over the country, the navy blue is getting pretty fadded again. I need to do some work inside the doors and my thought was to install a passenger mirror at the same time.

I am 5'-11", and drive with the seat all the way back. I do like the idea of the convex mirrors and didn't know they even made them for the Pagoda until now. I wish there was a way to temporally attach the mirror to try it out, before attaching it permanently. I haven't come up with any ideas yet.

Thanks for all the suggestions and feedback. However, this will have to wait until a later time. I am heading to Pittsburgh Tuesday the 15th for yet another neck surgery. One of the fusions in my neck (of 3) has broken loose and one of the titanium screws has actually broken, causing severe migraines every day and many times twice a day. After surgery, I won't be able to drive for at least 6 weeks. What a bummer. By that time summer in Northern PA will be over.

Well, at least I was able to get the car back on the road before surgery. My wife and I had a wonderful trip to Watkins Glen (Finger Lakes Region) last weekend in Ms Magoo. We had a 525 mile, top-down blast.
 
Thanks again for all the information. Lots to think about and consider in the mean time.
Kind regards,
Ed Riefstahl
Erie, PA (North East is the name of the town). I'ts not the location.

1966 230SL (Ms Magoo)
1970 280S (Miss Daisy)
1989 300SE (Majestic)
1999 BMW Z3 5 speed
1991 BMW 318I 5 Speed
1997 Toyota Paseo Convertible - Red 5 speed (have you ever seen one?)
1997 Ford Ranger step side (Mater)
2023 Mazda CX 5

[DaveB]

525 miles is a great test run!
Best wishes for your surgery.

[DaveB]

Thanks Joe. I don’t know if I have a backing plate in my passenger door. But like Davek1 mine is a lhd on rhd roads so I will need a mirror.
When it’s driveable.

[DaveB]

..btw Joe is your reinforcing plate welded on?
Yes there seems some latitude for moving the mirror fore & aft.
Or should that be longitude.

[getsmart]

yes it is welded on Dave.....how about movement forward or back?  also a little up and down too 

..btw Joe is your reinforcing plate welded on?
Yes there seems some latitude for moving the mirror fore & aft.
Or should that be longitude.

[BobH]

I was surprised at the difference in opinions on the 230SL mirrors, so i decided to have a look at mine

I don't have a passenger side mirror, so i sat in the passenger seat, with the seat back against the rear shelf, and i could see about half of the drivers side mirror surface.  I guess with convex glass this might improve the view, but not ideal for me.  If you shift the seat forward so it's about 6 inches from the shelf, the mirror surface reduces to about a third. Any further forward and i would guess the mirror couldn't be seen at all

So, as said earlier on this post, whatever works for you and your driving position

[Ed Riefstahl]

Yeah Bob, I was also very surprised at the difference of opinion. I think I'll do similar to what you did. I may mark the position of the left mirror on the right side with masking tape, and have my wife hold a small mirror in approximate location. I'll do this with the top up and down. It may give me a good idea of what to expect.

Thanks DaveB, for the well wishes.
Yes, 525 miles was a great test trip. Not exactly  the road trip to Canyon Lands we had planned on this summer. But, the good news is my wife is doing great and has nearly 100% survival rate. So, I guess all things considered, we are very grateful and the road trip can wait until next summer. It sure was nice to give the car a good test after all the work we did on the car.

I did let Mark at Sun Valley Transmissions know how pleased I was with the transmission.

Thanks again everyone for the suggestions, comments and well wishes on upcoming surgery.
Kind regards,

Ed Riefstahl
Erie, PA (North East is the name of our town). I'ts not the location or directions.

1966 230SL (Ms Magoo)
1970 280S (Miss Daisy)
1989 300SE (Majestic)
1999 BMW Z3 5 speed
1991 BMW 318I 5 Speed
1997 Toyota Paseo Convertible - Red 5 speed (have you ever seen one?)
1997 Ford Ranger step side (Mater)
2023 Mazda CX 5

[merrill]

back in 77 or so when my dad bought the 230 sl mercedes had mounted a passenger side mirror up on the passenger fender.

not sure if a convex mirror on the passenger door will work, but if it does i would install one there

[lagolag]

Symmetrical positioned or not, if there is a need for a passenger side outer rear view mirror, then my personal opinion is that it has to be positioned where the driver gets a good view. If you stand in front of the car you will hardly notice that the mirrors have a slightly different position. From the drivers position in my case, based on seat position, they are symmetrical from a view perspective.

[Pawel66]

back in 77 or so when my dad bought the 230 sl mercedes had mounted a passenger side mirror up on the passenger fender.

not sure if a convex mirror on the passenger door will work, but if it does i would install one there

Yes, it works there very well.

[getsmart]

best wishes from me too for the surgery Ed!!!! ...and good to hear your wife has a great prognosis!!!!

R/Joe

[frostpinfold]

My car had a passenger mirror when I bought the car. I need a mirror that side because my car is a USA car here in England.
The view in the mirror was not good because the glass was flat. You can't buy a convex glass at least as far as I could find so I made one. I bought a replacement convex glass for a small van marked it from the flat mirror and cut it with a diamond glass cutter.
Works great

[cfm65@me.com]

I fitted my RH mirror about an inch further back on my LHD 250SL.  It works fine and the offset is hardly noticeable,  except that the driver can now see and use the mirror.
Chris

[Lorsar]

I got an extended rearview mirror. $11 and easily removable

JoyTutus Rear View Mirror, 12 Inch Panoramic Anti-Glare Rearview Mirror, Interior Clip-on Wide Angle Convex Universal Rear View Mirror to Reduce Blind Spot Effectively for More Car SUV Trucks -Blue https://a.co/d/hkEFGsA

[Ed Riefstahl]

Lori, That's really cool. I've never heard of one before. For that amount of money, it may be worth trying, even if I do add a mirror to the outside.

If I do add a mirror, it looks like I may have to move it back an inch as Chris and others have mentioned. It looks like if I don't, the A pillar will block most of my view.

Chris, I'd like to know if there was a backer plate inside your door, and being one inch further back, did it line up ok, to drill and mount the mirror?

Thanks for the tips and suggestions, everyone.

Regards,
Ed Riefstahl
Erie, PA
(North East, PA is the name of our little town). I'ts not the location or directions.

1966 230SL (Ms Magoo) Horizon Blue
1970 280S (Miss Daisy)
1989 300SE (Majestic)
1999 BMW Z3 5 speed
1991 BMW 318I 5 Speed
1997 Toyota Paseo Convertible - Red 5 speed (have you ever seen one?)
1997 Ford Ranger step side (Mater)
2023 Mazda CX 5

[Raymond]

I added my passenger side mirror when I had the car painted.  I changed the mirror to a convex lens a couple of years later.  I find it very useful for the blind spot in traffic.  I don't think it helps much with parallel parking.  The viewing angle is limited.  Still, it has helped me with lane changing hundreds of times.

[BobH]

I know we've just about flogged this post to death, but if you want to see what looks like the correct position for a passenger side mirror on a 230, have a look at the pictures Colin/Stick has just uploaded of his beautiful car