Author Topic: Questions about original paint and products / paint to use to repaint a Pagoda  (Read 15822 times)

GGR

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Hi all,

Today I showed my '71 Pagoda to a guy who restores vintage cars and he has good reputation in the area. My car needs quite some body work (dings, older fender bender repairs to be corrected). I feel confident he will do a good job from the way he looked at the car, his comments and the questions he asked. I am still to see some of his work to make a final decision.

He asked me a few questions that I was unable to answer: What is the original paint type ? is it enamel?

Then we talked about the necessity to strip all the old paint or not. He was more of the opinion of stripping all the paint to make sure there won't be any bad reaction with the older paint. from what I read, I was more of the opinion of not stripping it apart from places in need of some work. But then I don't know what products (filler, primer, paint) should be used in order to avoid chemical reactions.

So, I am in need of advice: what is the best way to repaint a pagoda? With what products? What type of paint? I'm not necessarilly looking for a crazy shine as we sometimes see in concours. I would prefer to get a finish close to what it was when the car came out of the factory.

Thanks a lot in advance for the help !
« Last Edit: February 09, 2013, 19:31:17 by GGR »

Flyair

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I hope that you will recive some responses that will be more substantial in the case of the subject. However, from the little experience I can share, I would say that if the paint guy says he is an expert in vintage cars, he should be able to find out by himself what the correct paint should be for  your car and what supplier Is recommended. As far I can tell there were two main sources of paint. All of that is covered in the technical manual. So before you actually give the guy your order, you may want to shop around. I am sure that through this site you will find somebody who WILL KNOW about Mercedes paint. Moreover, if you consider applying the ringer paint to the underbody and boot/trunk, you should be talking to somebody who already touched a Pagoda.
Stan
1971 280SL
2011 SL550 AMG
2011 GL
2015 GLA

FRITZ68

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Pagoda Paint Job
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2013, 23:28:17 »
We just finished painting my wife's '68 Pagoda in Mercedes Silver, which was the same color from previous owner's paint job in 1985.  I do not know what type of paint was used at the factory, although her car was originally white.  I talked to the man who painted the car in 1985 and he said he used Mercedes Silver (I think it was #180) and that he used lacquer.  It held up very well, but the car had some serious rust on the rear fenders and across the back under the deck lid.

We have a full-time restoration shop at work and welded in patch panels and used real lead to smooth over the edges of the patch panels.  A light coat of body filler was applied, then block sanded over and over until it was dead flat. Then we used an epoxy primer, followed by about 4 -6 coats of base coat in the silver.  Then clear coat.  We were fortunate that Transtar furnished the paint free of charge, since we are going to feature the car in our spring 2013 catalog.  Transtar first sent us a pint to test, to be sure the color was exact (which it was).  The final results (after days of fine sanding and buffing) are probably better than when car was new; (too shiny), but it sure looks good.

If it ever stops snowing, I plan to post some more pictures of this car to show some detail.  In the meantime, here is a picture of the car in process and just after painting (before sanding and buffing).

Fritz

GGR

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Thanks.

Fritz, do you know if they had the car stripped of all paint when they did the job in 1985? Did you strip it to bare metal commpletely this time?

Benz Dr.

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I would never paint over anything unless I was sure of what was underneath. Stripping the body of all paint will reveal things you probably won't excpect and would gladly never want to see but it's all part of the process.

 We have been using Glasurit paints for quite a while. It's all water base now but the appearance and durability is every bit as good as the older solvent base products. I would use single stage which will have more of an original appearance and spot repairs are much more easily done when using this product.

Orignial paint was either Glasurit ( G ) or Dr. Herberts  ( H ) 
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

GGR

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Thanks Benz Dr.

A good 60% of the car is still original paint. Would you also strip that ?

You say original was Glasurit or Herberts. If I tell him that, will that give him the type of paint it was (i.e. enamel...) or should I be more specific?

I also heared single stage will look closer to original though it may be a bit more maintenance. I may go for it. Was original single stage also?

FRITZ68

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Thanks.

Fritz, do you know if they had the car stripped of all paint when they did the job in 1985? Did you strip it to bare metal commpletely this time?

I had some older pictures of the car taken during that restoration (in 1985) and it appears that it was taken to bare metal, other than the hard top (more about that later).  We had to do major body work (replaced bottom side of both rear fenders and the entire bottom and inner support across the rear (below the deck lid).  We took eveything down to bare metal on that part of the car, including the rear quarter panels.  The rocker panels needed some repair at the ends, so these were taken to bare metall as well. 

The other areas (previously painted with lacquer in 1985) were sanded down close to bare metal, but since the hood, deck lid and doors were aluminum, and since the existing lacquer paint was intact, we went easy on those parts (sandblasting of an aluminum part is out of the question, due to possible warpage; and paint remover is messy stuff, so we avoid that).   All that was left were the front fenders, and i am not sure how far our body man went on those - I was not present and he is out of town this week. He did say that there were no damage or rotted areas in that area of the car, and if so, know that he would have let me know and would have made major repairs (he uses real lead over welded repair panels).  If no prior repairs, I imagine that these front fenders were not taken to bare metal, but I leave matters such as these to our painter, based on his years of experience.

I know that we use epoxy gray primer (mixing in a hardener).  After spraying the primer, the car is block sanded for days to be sure of no high or low areas and then primed again, sanded again, etc.  Our body man then sprays a very light coat of black primer over the gray primer and sands again. The two colors show up any high or low spots and if any, they are corrected. Then the final sealing coat of epoxy primer, which is thinned down.  After that dries, the base coats are applied, followed by many coats of clear coat.  Then this finish is sanded with finer and finer sandpaper, and buffed to a mirror-like finish.

The finish on this car is probably better than original.  You will have to decide the look that you want.  Since my wife's car is not being judged, we went for a high shine.

The hard top gave us some trouble in that we did not want to remove the headliner to remove the two chrome strips, so carefully masked them.  After painting, we had some minor problems along the edge of the chrome strips, so ended taking almost all of the surface down to bare metal, sarting all over on that part of the project.  At that time, saw the original white finish under the silver paint job from 1985). Too much paint caused rough edges next to the chrome strips.  Luckily the top was sanded, primed and painted while on our bench, so sanding again and repainting a second time was not a big deal.  Attached are a few more pictures.

My recommendation agrees with that of your painter, but depends on how much paint is on the car, what kind of paint, and if any previous repairs - Unless you feel certain of what is under the existing finish, I would go by your painters advice, as you don't know what you might find. (Be careful with the aluminum hood, deck lid and doors, as they can easily be warped). Since your painter recommended taking the car to bare metal, he probably has his reasons.  Every car is different.  We once stripped down a 1939 LaSalle that had the original brown etching primer that defied paint stripper. Rather than sandblasting it off, we opted to leave this primer in place as a base and then sanded it smooth, applied more primer and then lacquer paint, and it came out perfect.  Some of the old factory primers served a purpose and sometimes the best plan is to leave that surface intact.  (This does not apply to any paints applied later over the original primer - better to remove that paint, especially if enamel).  Most lacquers, and some of the urethane paints used today will lift enamel.  That is probably why your painter specifically asked if the paint was enamel.  Another thing to consider is the age of the existing paint - if  recently repainted and you don't know what type of paint was used, better to get it all off.  In our case, since car was taken to bare metal and then painted in lacquer almost 30 years ago, we felt that complete removal was not necessary, except in areas that needed repaired.

On the 280 SL, removing the side chrome strips on the doors can create a headache, as the screw holes can be enlarged during the removal and replacement process (aluminum is weak as compared to metal).  There was another thread about this on our forum recently that covered this nicely.  Good luck on all of this - sounds like you are doing it right and advance planning saves a lot of headaches later. 

Fritz



hkollan

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I  agree with Dan that in order to achieve peace of mind,stripping to bare metal is the only way to go.
At least that is what I choose to do for my restoration project. And surely a few surprises was uncovered during that process, although a lot of extra work, but well worth it now in hindsight.
if my memory serves me right tobacco brown is 423 H and thus also from Herberts.
Herberts was acquired by Dupont a while ago.

Hans
Hans K, Cuenca, Spain
1968 280 SL 387 Blue met., parchment leather
1971 280 SL 462 Beige met, Brown leather
1968 280 SL 180 Silver, Red leather
1964 300 SE Lang 040 Black w/Red leather
1985 500 SL 735 Astral Silver w/Black leather
1987 560 SEC 199 Black met., Black leather

GGR

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Thanks all for your replies.

I agree that the car should be stripped where there were repairs and where the car was repainted. My question is about the 60% of the car still with its original paint. I'm refering to Fritz's comment : "Some of the old factory primers served a purpose and sometimes the best plan is to leave that surface intact". I would agree with that, but then I need to make sure that what is applied on top of it does not react.

So I take it that original paint was laquer, not enamel? 

pagoden

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The shop I was telling you about painted ~ 40% of mine a couple of years back and it is absolutely indistinguishably color-matched and blended with the old paint.  I completely sympathize with the complete stripping school of thought.  However, in my case there didn't seem to be the need as so much of the car was original and rust free.  I had the same concerns but the work is, to my eyes, flawless.  The conclusion seems to me to be that those who care greatly about their work and know what they're doing can do it either way with excellent result.  It seems that we have similar goals for appearance, and my experience of the results obtained using water-based single-stage paint leads me to expect you would be happy with it if done well.
I have always thought that the 'old-school' German factory finishes were enamel, but that hardly qualifies as expert information.  Continued good fortune with your project.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 10:07:42 by pagoden »
1968/69 280SL, just+100k mi, manual 4, 3.46, both tops, 717/904

FRITZ68

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I talked with the fellow that repainted my car in 1985 and he said he used lacquer, but I did not ask, nor did he say, what he thought the original paint was.  Pictures showed some of the car to be taken to bare metal, but not all views were shown in the very old pictures. We later discovered that the removable hard top was not stripped to bare metal, as we had trouble (lifting old paint along the edge of the chrome) and later discovered the original white paint under the silver that was applied in 1985. So I do not know what type of paint was applied at the factory.  Someone on this forum should know. If enamel, was it baked enamel, acrylic enamel, with or without hardener?  Many possibilities come to mind.

For years, I always knew that it was OK to paint enamel over lacquer, but not OK to paint lacaquer over enamel, as it could lift the finish.  I also recall that if the enamel was old enough you could usually get away with spraying lacquer anyhow, but not to spray on too much at a time, as the reducer (lacquer thinner) in the paint can be very strong.  But now things are different. The new urethanes and reducers are very potent and can lift what is underneath, so many feel that complete paint removal is the safest bet.  Now we have water base paints, and in theory at least, that shoiuld provide a safer method.

We have a restoration shop at work for our own cars and sometimes we take the entire car to bare metal, removing all of the glass, interior, chrome - everything. We put the car on a rotisserie and the project takes a year or more. The results are outstanding, but probably not ever worth the cost.  We have other cars that sometimes need some touchup and in this case it is impossible to go to bare metal, except in the area that needs touched up, so where do you stop?  Since our cars are all at least 30 - 80 years old, if the paint appears to he original, or even if repainted many years ago, we can usually succeed in doing the touchup.  Matching the color is another story and is not easy, even if paint is scanned. So sometimes when doing some touchup work, it ends up being a lot more than a simple touchup and in our case, many of our touchups end up being a complete repaint - others end up being a body-off restoration.

If we had a 35 year old car with 60% original paint, I would feel fairly certain that we could retain much of that paint by careful sanding, but might want to do a test of several areas prior to painting the entire car. I am assuming that you plan on painting the entire car (spraying over the 60%).  If not painting the entire car, doubt very much if the paint will match in color and/or gloss.  If you go this route, after priming, I would look very carefully at the areas along the edges between the original and new paint to see if any lifting has occured.  Any areas that have had prior body work (rust patches, body filler, problem areas) should certainly be taken to bare metal.  These are the areas that would probably give most of the problems.

Attached is an underside picture of a car on a rotisserie, with original red primer applied to match exactly what it looked like underneath when the car was built. This car had a frame, so body was removed.  This is a true "body off frame" restoration that was done in our shop. All of the original paint was removed from every part of this car in the process, including the frame.  Also glass, upholstery, seats, engine, transmission, drive shaft, rear end, hood, doors, deck lid, front fenders were all removed (rear fenders were part of the body).  (Sorry, not a Pagoda, but shows the process - 1954 Buick 2 dr HT).  I don't think that many of us would want to go this far with our cars, and I can guarantee that it is not at all practical, as the finished costs will be double or triple of the value of the car when finished, and that is owning our own shop - if sent to a restoration shop the sky is the limit! We try to stay away from such projects, but sometimes one thng leads to another and................I think you know the rest of the story.

(We have done 6 body-off restorations during the past 10 - 15 years).   It's only a hobby I keep telling myself.   The problem is that once a car is done in this manner, it is seldom again ever driven. Ask yourself if this is what you want.

Fritz


GGR

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I really appreciate all these explanations. I'm good with bolt and nuts, not so much with body work and paint, so it helps me understand the process.

Yes, I am planning to respray the whole car, including the areas where original paint is still present. My point in keeping the original paint is both to retain the original protection as well as to slightly reduce work and costs. But if there is a risk of the new products and paint to react over it, then I may stip all the paint.

So I guess we are back to determining what was used originally, and what can be safely used over it today.

George Des

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The original paint on just about all of the Pagodas was an alkyd enamel. From what I understand Glasurit was the principal supplier but there were some others. Also, lacquer finishes were available as an option. Typically lacquer finishes are faily brittle and are subject to crazing, cracking and dulling. While they can give a showroom shine and are fairly easy to work with, they require lots of upkeep. For thAt reason, most of the modern finishes are either acrylic enamels, harderned alkyd enamels or urethanes. These all have excellent durability and most can be color- sanded and buffed to remove imperfections unlike a straight alkyd enamel. As someone above pointed out lacquer kver enamel will generally cause the enamel to lift. Especially if the enamel does not contain a hardener. These are special sealer products that can be used to prevent this. As far as stripping a car to bear metal , it is the only sure fire way to know what is lurking underneath and to ensure 100% compatibility of all fillers undercoats and topcoats. You just need to be prepared to do a lot of tweaking of seams and gapss on the hood, trunk and door panels as all of these were pretty much hand fitted using combinations of lead and plastic fillers and surfacers.

dseretakis

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The original paint on our cars was an enamel.  It was likely a synthetic enamel.  You have some repainted areas and its hard to tell what paint was used in the repairs.  In my opinion, I'd strip only the repainted areas and just scuff up all the original paint.  I would use a single stage urethane - this will give you the best compromise between durability and an authentic looking finish.  If your painter is skilled enough he will be able to give you just the right amount of orange peel for a correct looking finish! An acrylic enamel, such as what you used to paint the underbody of your car would be my second choice- it is less durable than a the single stage urethane.  I would avoid a two stage basecoat/ clearcoat urethane as that is the least authentic choice but a good paint system, nonetheless. Acrylic lacquer is also not correct and very delicate. And definitely avoid those water borne paints of today!
« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 04:10:55 by dseretakis »

Benz Dr.

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Why avoid water base paints? In many places today that's what you are required to use for enironmental reasons. The solvents in the older style paints are kind of nasty. This created some problems for a lot of places as they adapted to the new system but the results are every bit as good. They use water but it's not anything like you get from the tap and is probably very pure stuff.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

dseretakis

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Why avoid water base paints? In many places today that's what you are required to use for enironmental reasons. The solvents in the older style paints are kind of nasty. This created some problems for a lot of places as they adapted to the new system but the results are every bit as good. They use water but it's not anything like you get from the tap and is probably very pure stuff.

Mercedes had paint failures some years ago due to this stuff. Such a paint system will likely use a two stage process. As GGR is painting his car tobacco brown, a basecoat clearcoat is not necessary and in my opinion will give an incorrect and unoriginal effect.

Flyair

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GGR and Dsertakis

funny that now you are speaking about your similar Pagodas through this site…. I am impressed ;D
Stan
1971 280SL
2011 SL550 AMG
2011 GL
2015 GLA

Benz Dr.

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Mercedes had paint failures some years ago due to this stuff. Such a paint system will likely use a two stage process. As GGR is painting his car tobacco brown, a basecoat clearcoat is not necessary and in my opinion will give an incorrect and unoriginal effect.


 They do make water based single stage paint, you know.......
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

dseretakis

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 They do make water based single stage paint, you know.......

Well that's good to know. Mercedes paint failure and rust issues during the last decade were in part blamed on the water based paints. I don't know if there is any validity to that. I will remain suspect until I hear otherwise.

Benz Dr.

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I'm not aware of any paint problems because I have little interest in new cars. When was the last time you can remember a familiar process, once changed, that wasn't suspect?
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

dseretakis

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I'm not aware of any paint problems because I have little interest in new cars. When was the last time you can remember a familiar process, once changed, that wasn't suspect?

Yes, I see your point and agree. I would have to do more investigation before I ever opted for such a paint option. Another issue is that water borne paint systems seem to be used more in collision shops. Finding a restoration shop that offers that might also pose a challenge.

George Des

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Don't confuse these water-borne paints with Latex waterbased paint--there is a world of difference! As Dan said much of this is driven by the environmental issues with VOCs that are typically high in a solvent based/borne paint. Many of the leading paint manufacturers like BASF (Glasurit and R&M), Dupont and PPG have been at the forefront in developing these paints to meet the environmental standards that are becoming more and more stringent.

Benz Dr.

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Yes, I see your point and agree. I would have to do more investigation before I ever opted for such a paint option. Another issue is that water borne paint systems seem to be used more in collision shops. Finding a restoration shop that offers that might also pose a challenge.

 The 600 we are finishing up was painted with ultra black, water based, Glasurit paint. I'm sure it was single stage and at $23,000.00, it wasn't a cheezy job. And this was on a car that that had zero rust. When you paint a car black that's a big as a 600, it has to be perfectly straight.

He also did a show quality 190SL for me last year in base clear - also water base. The new products require some learning and the new primers are very hard and take longer to sand down.

There seems to be a lot of bogus information floating around out there. You will find, with some study, that most things you hear fall into the '' old wives tales '' column and might better be forgotten.
1966 230SL 5 speed, LSD, header pipes, 300SE distributor, ported, polished and balanced, AKA  ''The Red Rocket ''
Dan Caron's SL Barn

1970  3.5 Coupe
1961  190SL
1985   300CD  Turbo Coupe
1981  300SD
2013  GMC  Sierra
1965  230SL
1967 250SL
1970 280SL
1988 560SEC

66andBlue

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There seems to be a lot of bogus information floating around out there. You will find, with some study, that most things you hear fall into the '' old wives tales '' column and might better be forgotten.
Right on Benz Dr. !
Another twist to the story is that some (not to be named here) east coast restorers use the fact that California has outlawed solvent-based paints to tell their clients not to spend money on a restoration here because it will never get a "Pebble Beach" quality paint job.
Although the fact is that some recent prize winners were painted in the state here.
Alfred
1964 230SL manual 4-speed 568H signal red
1966 230SL automatic 334G light blue (sold)
1968 280SL automatic (now 904G midnight blue)

mdsalemi

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http://www.basfrefinish.com

There's a lot to learn by poking around this website.

There is also a lot of truth to what happens in California: http://www.arb.ca.gov/coatings/autorefin/autorefin.htm  That's another website to poke around. There's interesting information on rules, laws etc. by county, on what you can and can't do, and what you can and can't use.

It isn't just about VOCs, but other paint and chemical components as well.

...which is why for many years, there were not just "U.S. Spec" cars, but "49-State" and "California" which of course, drove the automakers--all of them--a bit crazy.

It isn't limited to California...Massachusetts has a 603 page document covering regulations on air pollution (which covers VOC, paint etc.) Canada has its own set: http://canadagazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p2/2009/2009-07-08/html/sor-dors197-eng.html

Kind of a rat's nest of rules and regulations depending on where you are!  But, we have some extremely well known restorers of all marques in California; some well known Mercedes restorers in Massachusetts, and do I need to mention the quality work of RM in Ontario?  Everyone has some rule to deal with regarding automotive refinishing!
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 13:22:30 by mdsalemi »
Michael Salemi
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Signal Red 568G w/Black Leather (Restored)
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